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IRFU to spend even more money on their wages.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Irish rugby bosses will hand the four provinces an extra €3.2 million (£2.27m) a year to combat the threat of France's big-spending superpowers.

Philip Browne, chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), admitted the four provinces are "all struggling" to keep pace with their French counterparts.

The IRFU reported a surplus in excess of €8.7m (£6.18m) owing to ticket sales, new broadcasting deals and Ireland's two-straight Six Nations titles.

Browne admitted the IRFU have a duty to keep raising investment into Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster where possible.

"At professional game level it allows to start putting a little bit more money into the academy system and the elite player pool," said Browne.

"What we're trying to do with David Nucifora [performance director] is to try and drive the high-performance system through the age groups so that we have contact with kids at an earlier age.

"It obviously allows us to put a bit more money into the provinces who are all struggling to some extent in terms of financial pressures that are coming to bear because of the money in France.

"We're trying to make them financially viable and sustainable but at the same time we've got to try to put competitive teams on the park. So it's about all those things, it's really around the high-performance system and player contracts where that money goes."

In the 2013-14 season, the IRFU posted a surplus of €7.3m (£5.9m). A second-straight surplus leaves the organisation in rude health ahead of next month's Rugby World Cup.

Oh, and just to add a link about spending as our Irish friends on here like us to provide such things, here is the IRFU annual report:-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 201314.pdf
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 014_15.pdf

Looks like the Irish will be spending the highest in Europe now.


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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Its bits like that in bold that confuse me.

During the RCC/HEC debate, it was important that we ensured that everyone is included, and that we had to make sure nobody was left behind.  The general consensus was that the change to the RCC was going to lead to a huge mismatch in quality and cash.  And then when similar is questioned with regards the Pro12, and some nations being left behind, it is a case of 'Sorry we have to look after ourselves'.

If anything, the bit in bold reads pretty similar to what a number of Welsh fans were being slated for saying during that same debate.

Yep, top point. It aligns with the Irish rugby follower moaning that the French can outspend them but never moaning when they won the HEC by spending more than their competitors.

Laugh Keep saying it. You might even make yourself believe it if you repeat it often enough.

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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:18 pm

You're looking at the IRFU teams as being separate endeavours, subsidised by their 'owners' the IRFU. Thats a weird way of looking at it. They are not the owners, they ARE the teams. The national team is one of the teams they operate and the money they make is redistributed. That money isn't any more magicked up out of thin air than any teams budget; its generated through TV deals, merchandise sales, ticket sales, sponsorship.

You look upon it with bitterness and disdain, but it's a model which seems to be working well for us despite phenomenal pressure from super-wealthy French clubs. I wish the Welsh Union passed on their profits to the regions as increased investment in them would definitely benefit the Pro12 as a competition.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Laugh Keep saying it.  You might even make yourself believe it if you repeat it often enough.

It is true.

Just as its true when Irish rugby followers moan about Toulon winning it.
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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:21 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:
I don't in anyway want to see anyone get left behind. But it seems that everyone in the Pro12 has had equal opportunities, equal potential, and the reason the Irish can spend more is they have managed their off-field affairs a lot better. The refusal of the Welsh Union to subsidise the regions and the regions assertion of their independence has led to crises and disputes that have damaged the game in Wales while we've avoided that. Should we be penalised for this good management? Of course, we DO have to look after ourselves. That is the mandate of the IRFU; to look after rugby in Ireland. We form partnerships with other unions in terms of the Six Nations or the Lions or the Pro12 to help us do that, but the hope is that those partnerships are mutually beneficial.

I understand where you're coming from in that this big beast eats the little beast capitalist logic applied to sport just leads to a few big clubs or nations dominating and other great teams being squeezed out, but actually- unlike the reformed European competitions- Wales and Ireland are ensured equality of opportunity. From the European Cup and Pro12 to the Six Nations and the Lions Tour, we play in the same competitions, with the same number of teams, sharing similar amounts of revenue from TV deals and the like. It's the other sources of income where we have outstripped you- sharing the income generated by the national team with the provinces, selling tickets, selling merchandise. All leads to having more to invest in the running of the team, all leads to an enhanced chance of success.

I don't want to see mismatches form but the solution can't be to try and drag others down to your level. It has to be for Welsh Rugby to do better and rise up to ours.

Who is wanting anybody to be dragged down? Why are you continuing to write this false conclusion to your own straw man question?

Well, the original article was about us spending more on wages with the implication that this is a 'bad thing' for the league. Other posters have mentioned they wanted salary caps in the past.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:22 pm

Notch wrote:You're looking at the IRFU teams as being separate endeavours, subsidised by their 'owners' the IRFU. Thats a weird way of looking at it. They are not the owners, they ARE the teams. The national team is one of the teams they operate and the money they make is redistributed. That money isn't any more magicked up out of thin air than any teams budget; its generated through TV deals, merchandise sales, ticket sales, sponsorship.

You look upon it with bitterness and disdain, but it's a model which seems to be working well for us despite phenomenal pressure from super-wealthy French clubs. I wish the Welsh Union passed on their profits to the regions as increased investment in them would definitely benefit the Pro12 as a competition.

I'm not looking at it like that at all. Quite the opposite. I'm noting that if the PrO'12 is to be a proper league then they should be entirely separate entities all with individual ownership.

If you keep making false claims about bitterness, it does rather impact on your posts.

I appreciate that the system worked (past tense) well. That's not the question. I wrote was in question in a previous post so hopefully we can actually discuss that instead of something else that you've fabricated to argue against.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:23 pm

Notch wrote:

Well, the original article was about us spending more on wages with the implication that this is a 'bad thing' for the league. Other posters have mentioned they wanted salary caps in the past.

Sorry, but where's that implication in the article?

And where does it say that any kind of salary cap will be below what the IRFU already spend?

In other words, that's two areas of fabrication.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Laugh Keep saying it.  You might even make yourself believe it if you repeat it often enough.

It is true.

Just as its true when Irish rugby followers moan about Toulon winning it.

A bit early for Pantos, Phil.... but I guess I'm coaxed to join in.........

Oh no, it isn't true...

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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Its bits like that in bold that confuse me.

During the RCC/HEC debate, it was important that we ensured that everyone is included, and that we had to make sure nobody was left behind.  The general consensus was that the change to the RCC was going to lead to a huge mismatch in quality and cash.  And then when similar is questioned with regards the Pro12, and some nations being left behind, it is a case of 'Sorry we have to look after ourselves'.

If anything, the bit in bold reads pretty similar to what a number of Welsh fans were being slated for saying during that same debate.

Yep, top point. It aligns with the Irish rugby follower moaning that the French can outspend them but never moaning when they won the HEC by spending more than their competitors.

Laugh Keep saying it.  You might even make yourself believe it if you repeat it often enough.

Ask him to back it up. Just for a giggle Very Happy

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Ask him to back it up. Just for a giggle Very Happy

Don't the 2012 IRFU Annual Report show investment into the pro game at greater than the T14 salary cap at the time?
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:30 pm

PhilBB wrote:

I'm not looking at it like that at all. Quite the opposite. I'm noting that if the PrO'12 is to be a proper league then they should be entirely separate entities all with individual ownership.


If the Pro12 is to be a proper League the WRU should buy out the Regions and run them more efficiently and use their resources to consolidate and grow all.


So?

Which belief system wins the debate? You seem to think it natural law that rugby teams should be individually owned.

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:

If the Pro12 is to be a proper League the WRU should buy out the Regions and run them more efficiently and use their resources to consolidate and grow all.


So?

Which belief system wins the debate?  You seem to think it natural law that rugby teams should be individually owned.

Well, competition law in most sports note that multiple teams shouldn't be owned by the same group or individual.

Why do you think that is?
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Ask him to back it up. Just for a giggle Very Happy

Don't the 2012 IRFU Annual Report show investment into the pro game at greater than the T14 salary cap at the time?

What salary cap is that? The one on the forms or the one in the pockets of the players?

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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:

Well, the original article was about us spending more on wages with the implication that this is a 'bad thing' for the league. Other posters have mentioned they wanted salary caps in the past.

Sorry, but where's that implication in the article?

And where does it say that any kind of salary cap will be below what the IRFU already spend?

In other words, that's two areas of fabrication.

No, you misunderstand. I don't mean the quoted article, but the original post. Lord Dowlais is the one semi-implying that this increased spending is a bad thing, in the context of a long running debate over finances that spans many previous threads on this forum.

Why would I bother to fabricate anything? What would that achieve with my time? None of this is important because none of us are important.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Ask him to back it up. Just for a giggle Very Happy

Don't the 2012 IRFU Annual Report show investment into the pro game at greater than the T14 salary cap at the time?

What salary cap is that?  The one on the forms or the one in the pockets of the players?

The one in the forms that Toulon were fined about last season so have taken a case to the EU on it.

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/toulons-leinster-champions-cup-wages/21019

Anybody know Patrick? He reckons the Irish provinces have a wage bill of over €10m.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:36 pm

Notch wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:

Well, the original article was about us spending more on wages with the implication that this is a 'bad thing' for the league. Other posters have mentioned they wanted salary caps in the past.

Sorry, but where's that implication in the article?

And where does it say that any kind of salary cap will be below what the IRFU already spend?

In other words, that's two areas of fabrication.

No, you misunderstand. I don't mean the quoted article, but the original post. Lord Dowlais is the one semi-implying that this increased spending is a bad thing, in the context of a long running debate over finances that spans many previous threads on this forum.

Why would I bother to fabricate anything? What would that achieve with my time? None of this is important because none of us are important.

How dare you! boxing

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Notch wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:

Well, the original article was about us spending more on wages with the implication that this is a 'bad thing' for the league. Other posters have mentioned they wanted salary caps in the past.

Sorry, but where's that implication in the article?

And where does it say that any kind of salary cap will be below what the IRFU already spend?

In other words, that's two areas of fabrication.

No, you misunderstand. I don't mean the quoted article, but the original post. Lord Dowlais is the one semi-implying that this increased spending is a bad thing, in the context of a long running debate over finances that spans many previous threads on this forum.

Why would I bother to fabricate anything? What would that achieve with my time? None of this is important because none of us are important.

We've gone from 'implication' to 'semi-implying'.

I've no idea what you bother to fabricate anything but there's lots of it going on in this thread from Irish rugby followers. You've fabricated conclusions in your own posts, based seemingly on misunderstanding the debate.
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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Ask him to back it up. Just for a giggle Very Happy

Don't the 2012 IRFU Annual Report show investment into the pro game at greater than the T14 salary cap at the time?

What salary cap is that?  The one on the forms or the one in the pockets of the players?

The one in the forms that Toulon were fined about last season so have taken a case to the EU on it.

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/toulons-leinster-champions-cup-wages/21019

Anybody know Patrick? He reckons the Irish provinces have a wage bill of over €10m.

What do you think about the latest AP fiasco, Phil? What do you think about the lack of transparency, and the fact that some are busting salary caps? You all for it?

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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:You're looking at the IRFU teams as being separate endeavours, subsidised by their 'owners' the IRFU. Thats a weird way of looking at it. They are not the owners, they ARE the teams. The national team is one of the teams they operate and the money they make is redistributed. That money isn't any more magicked up out of thin air than any teams budget; its generated through TV deals, merchandise sales, ticket sales, sponsorship.

You look upon it with bitterness and disdain, but it's a model which seems to be working well for us despite phenomenal pressure from super-wealthy French clubs. I wish the Welsh Union passed on their profits to the regions as increased investment in them would definitely benefit the Pro12 as a competition.

I'm not looking at it like that at all. Quite the opposite. I'm noting that if the PrO'12 is to be a proper league then they should be entirely separate entities all with individual ownership.

If you keep making false claims about bitterness, it does rather impact on your posts.

I appreciate that the system worked (past tense) well. That's not the question. I wrote was in question in a previous post so hopefully we can actually discuss that instead of something else that you've fabricated to argue against.

Well, thats your own belief but it's not one I share or subscribe too. I think if you look at the French model, its both extremely successful and extremely unsuccessful. Extremely successful in terms of generating income, extremely unsuccessful in that it strangles the national side and teams are now finding it easier to invest in foreign players, even at Academy level, than to develop their own. None of the money is finding its way to the grassroots and less and less quality home-grown players are coming out of the system.

I feel that having the Union act as a counter-balance to the potential excesses of Independent clubs is a necessary measure to ensure that the balance between all sides is maintained.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:40 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

If the Pro12 is to be a proper League the WRU should buy out the Regions and run them more efficiently and use their resources to consolidate and grow all.


So?

Which belief system wins the debate?  You seem to think it natural law that rugby teams should be individually owned.

Well, competition law in most sports note that multiple teams shouldn't be owned by the same group or individual.

Why do you think that is?

Pretty complex subject. Are you ready for it considering a company like SKY, BT, Nike or Coke kinda own a lot teams Wink Competition law? The backers of Saracens, some of them SA gentlemen I hear, are we all clear none of them have investments in other clubs? We all have investment portfolios of all these nice privately made men to read off their interests?

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:40 pm

Munchkin wrote:

What do you think about the latest AP fiasco, Phil? What do you think about the lack of transparency, and the fact that some are busting salary caps? You all for it?

Why are you incapable of reading back a few posts?
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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:We've gone from 'implication' to 'semi-implying'.

I've no idea what you bother to fabricate anything but there's lots of it going on in this thread from Irish rugby followers. You've fabricated conclusions in your own posts, based seemingly on misunderstanding the debate.

Well you can ask him about his views on salary caps. I take it you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with the IRFU spending what they need to spend on players to try and ensure we can compete at every level, so I'm not sure what there is then to argue about- other than that you think unions should not be involved in the running of teams at this level and I hold the opposite view.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Ask him to back it up. Just for a giggle Very Happy

Don't the 2012 IRFU Annual Report show investment into the pro game at greater than the T14 salary cap at the time?

What salary cap is that?  The one on the forms or the one in the pockets of the players?

The one in the forms that Toulon were fined about last season so have taken a case to the EU on it.

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/toulons-leinster-champions-cup-wages/21019

Anybody know Patrick? He reckons the Irish provinces have a wage bill of over €10m.

More reasons for WRU buying out the Regions.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:44 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The RCC will make it more difficult, for all Pro12 sides, in the future. Ironically, the more successful it is, the more difficult it will be for Pro12 sides to keep up.
We are being forced to compete with the French right now. We have to compete on players wage levels, otherwise we lose our players. We want all Pro12 sides to be competitive. We want them to compete with us, to raise their game. That will benefit us. There is absolutely no sense in us lowering ours, or we all lose out.

This is totally untrue.

The RCC could become extremely successful but the IRFU will just divert more money from grassroots in Ireland and into its Provincial teams in order for them to compete.

Whilst other nations' teams will bear the fruits of their harvest, the IRFU teams will get a leg up regardless.
Well firstly there is no evidence to suggest that the IRFU are or will not be investing more in grassroots, they actually don't have any other choice given we can only sign 4 NIQ and it sounds like they want to eventually get it down to 3...but even if the IRFU didn't invest a penny, the school system is so good here that there will always be top players produced for the provinces. Leinster school cup games are regularly attended by crowds up around the 5/6k mark and the final has often gotten 20k in attendance. Every round is also shown on Setanta.

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:45 pm

Notch wrote:

Well, thats your own belief but it's not one I share or subscribe too. I think if you look at the French model, its both extremely successful and extremely unsuccessful. Extremely successful in terms of generating income, extremely unsuccessful in that it strangles the national side and teams are now finding it easier to invest in foreign players, even at Academy level, than to develop their own. None of the money is finding its way to the grassroots and less and less quality home-grown players are coming out of the system.

I feel that having the Union act as a counter-balance to the potential excesses of Independent clubs is a necessary measure to ensure that the balance between all sides is maintained.

There's more misrepresentation in that post!

The French system doesn't strangle the national side at all - PSA managed to do that all on his own. The 'foreigners' invested in at Academy level are there to beat the JIFF regulation but, by bringing in those youngsters, it makes them qualified for the French national team!

Look at the number of time served players in the French side (just like the Irish). They were there because of the French clubs.

I'm at a loss as to how you can say 'none of the money is finding its way to the grassroots'. None of whose money? Even the T14 TV deal sees just over 30% of the cash given to the ProD2 clubs who, in turn, signed a TV with Eurosport bigger than any individual deal the Pro12 can managed.

Where's your evidence for less quality home grown players coming out of the system? France U20 got to the RWC semi final.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:

Pretty complex subject.  Are you ready for it considering a company like SKY, BT, Nike or Coke kinda own a lot teams Wink  Competition law?  The backers of Saracens, some of them SA gentlemen I hear, are we all clear none of them have investments in other clubs?  We all have investment portfolios of all these nice privately made men to read off their interests?

It's not a complex subject at all.

Go on, see if you can answer it.
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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:49 pm

"Why are you incapable of reading back a few posts?"

Ah, this reply:


"[/quote]
My thoughts are that PRL couldn't legally make stick their own rules so couldn't legally prove a salary cap breach. I'm fine with that as I think that the caps are a waste of time because...... ba ba baaaa ...... they are unenforceable. I'm all behind Mourad taking his case to the EU. I wrote this above.

There's no fact that the richer get richer, the poor poorer. Now there is an incentive for the poor to get richer"

So, you're fine with club owners cheating. Cheating is ok by you. Spending huge sums of money on players budgets is fine by you. You have no issue with the lack of transparency? So long as the big money men get their own way, and shaft the clubs below them in doing so. Winning silverware by cheating the rules is good, in your opinion?

And you moan about the IRFU/Provinces. You are such a hypocrite. If it was the Provinces behaving like this, you would go ballistic.

P.s and if you think this won't lead to the poor clubs getting poorer, you live in a bubble. It is you that moans about money buying success.


Last edited by Munchkin on Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:50 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Well firstly there is no evidence to suggest that the IRFU are or will not be investing more in grassroots, they actually don't have any other choice given we can only sign 4 NIQ and it sounds like they want to eventually get it down to 3...but even if the IRFU didn't invest a penny, the school system is so good here that there will always be top players produced for the provinces. Leinster school cup games are regularly attended by crowds up around the 5/6k mark and the final has often gotten 20k in attendance. Every round is  also shown on Setanta.

That fist sentence is a perfect example of how this debate falls over.

I make the point that money diverted to the top end of the game is taken from other parts of the game. That's not a controversial point and it is factually correct as the same Euro cannot be spent twice. The reply? Your first sentence. It's an incredible logic leap to go from 'each Euro spent at the top doesn't go to the bottom' to 'no evidence the IRFU are not investing the grass roots'. Why on earth do you do that?
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:51 pm

Notch wrote:
Well you can ask him about his views on salary caps. I take it you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with the IRFU spending what they need to spend on players to try and ensure we can compete at every level, so I'm not sure what there is then to argue about- other than that you think unions should not be involved in the running of teams at this level and I hold the opposite view.

There's nothing to argue about the system. I wrote that many posts ago - how did you miss it?

The only 'argument' is the flat refusal of many Irish rugby followers to see the system for what it is.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:

More reasons for WRU buying out the Regions.  

Mate, up your game in the trolling stakes as that one is tired and weak.

Lewis was offered the four. He couldn't find the cash.

Move on.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:51 pm

The two Scottish clubs are owned by the SRU, aren't they? So do they need to also be privately owned to make the league fairer? Or are the Welsh the odd ones out?

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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:52 pm

The problem is that there is little reason for the clubs to invest in the skills of players at sub-Academy level if you're bringing in JIFF-Academy players. The money spent on bring those players in could be going to the schools and clubs and really trying to improve the level of players at that grassroots level

It's obviously something Ireland do badly as well, skills at age group level, but they have little reason to invest in it. A club like Toulon (just an example) has little incentive to worry about the grassroots or about the national team. Their goals are very separate. It's not, in my opinion, a healthy state of affairs for French rugby.
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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:53 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:
Well you can ask him about his views on salary caps. I take it you agree with me that there is nothing wrong with the IRFU spending what they need to spend on players to try and ensure we can compete at every level, so I'm not sure what there is then to argue about- other than that you think unions should not be involved in the running of teams at this level and I hold the opposite view.

There's nothing to argue about the system. I wrote that many posts ago - how did you miss it?

The only 'argument' is the flat refusal of many Irish rugby followers to see the system for what it is.

So do you think I see it for it really is? And does that bring you some measure of satisfaction?
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:54 pm

Munchkin wrote:

So, you're fine with club owners cheating. Cheating is ok by you. Spending huge sums of money on players budgets is fine by you. You have no issue with the lack of transparency? So long as the big money men get their own way, and shaft the clubs below them in doing so. Winning silverware by cheating the rules is good, in your opinion?

And you moan about the IRFU/Provinces. You are such a hypocrite. If it was the Provinces behaving like this, you would go ballistic.

It can't be cheating unless a rule was broken. Is that too subtle for you to understand?

Spending huge money on players is fine with me as long as it is recorded as legally required in the accounts of the teams involved. That those figures WERE shown in the accounts is how the investigation into alleged breaches happened. Again, is that too subtle for you?

The Provinces can't act like this as they aren't transparent enough, nor do they have a cap, to be found out in the first place.

Again, is that too subtle for you? It seems so as you're keen to throw the abuse despite clearly being not bright enough to spot what is going on.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:55 pm

Notch wrote:The problem is that there is little reason for the clubs to invest in the skills of players at sub-Academy level if you're bringing in JIFF-Academy players. The money spent on bring those players in could be going to the schools and clubs and really trying to improve the level of players at that grassroots level

It's obviously something Ireland do badly as well, skills at age group level, but they have little reason to invest in it. A club like Toulon (just an example) has little incentive to worry about the grassroots or about the national team. Their goals are very separate. It's not, in my opinion, a healthy state of affairs for French rugby.

Clubs don't invest sub-Academy. That's schools rugby.

Toulon have a huge incentive to get their Academy right. It's why French clubs spend so much on them, so that's another of your fabrications.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:55 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Pretty complex subject.  Are you ready for it considering a company like SKY, BT, Nike or Coke kinda own a lot teams Wink  Competition law?  The backers of Saracens, some of them SA gentlemen I hear, are we all clear none of them have investments in other clubs?  We all have investment portfolios of all these nice privately made men to read off their interests?

It's not a complex subject at all.

Go on, see if you can answer it.

No, you answer it. You drive up any street trying to escape the logic cops. Steve McQueen. Wink

A few days ago you were gushing about the transparency of the English and French system showing up the old hidden ways of IRFU.... and yet you quote IRFU notes and figures all the time (or allude to them)... and of course you haven't a leg to stand with the 'transparency' argument.
But go on - explain that transparency point you were making again?

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:56 pm

Notch wrote:
So do you think I see it for it really is? And does that bring you some measure of satisfaction?

You seem to be miles ahead of an extremely bad bunch on here, in all fairness.

You really should do some outreach work to the likes of munchkin and co.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:

No, you answer it.  You drive up any street trying to escape the logic cops.  Steve McQueen. Wink

A few days ago you were gushing about the transparency of the English and French system showing up the old hidden ways of IRFU.... and yet you quote IRFU notes and figures all the time (or allude to them)...  and of course you haven't a leg to stand with the 'transparency' argument.
But go on - explain that transparency point you were making again?

I didn't think that you could answer it. Instead, you just wrote some lies.

Awesome, honestly. Like debating with a 12 year old.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:The problem is that there is little reason for the clubs to invest in the skills of players at sub-Academy level if you're bringing in JIFF-Academy players. The money spent on bring those players in could be going to the schools and clubs and really trying to improve the level of players at that grassroots level

It's obviously something Ireland do badly as well, skills at age group level, but they have little reason to invest in it. A club like Toulon (just an example) has little incentive to worry about the grassroots or about the national team. Their goals are very separate. It's not, in my opinion, a healthy state of affairs for French rugby.

Clubs don't invest sub-Academy. That's schools rugby.

Toulon have a huge incentive to get their Academy right. It's why French clubs spend so much on them, so that's another of your fabrications.

Right...but they avail of it by extension. Meanwhile IRFU do...you know that owner of four Professional teams.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Well firstly there is no evidence to suggest that the IRFU are or will not be investing more in grassroots, they actually don't have any other choice given we can only sign 4 NIQ and it sounds like they want to eventually get it down to 3...but even if the IRFU didn't invest a penny, the school system is so good here that there will always be top players produced for the provinces. Leinster school cup games are regularly attended by crowds up around the 5/6k mark and the final has often gotten 20k in attendance. Every round is  also shown on Setanta.

That fist sentence is a perfect example of how this debate falls over.

I make the point that money diverted to the top end of the game is taken from other parts of the game. That's not a controversial point and it is factually correct as the same Euro cannot be spent twice. The reply? Your first sentence. It's an incredible logic leap to go from 'each Euro spent at the top doesn't go to the bottom' to 'no evidence the IRFU are not investing the grass roots'. Why on earth do you do that?
Why does money need to be taken from grassroots or anywhere?  Doesn't this article claim that we are receiving a big funding injection from the success of the national team amongst other things. The size of the academies has actually grown in recent years and we even have sub-academy contracted players now.

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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:01 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

So, you're fine with club owners cheating. Cheating is ok by you. Spending huge sums of money on players budgets is fine by you. You have no issue with the lack of transparency? So long as the big money men get their own way, and shaft the clubs below them in doing so. Winning silverware by cheating the rules is good, in your opinion?

And you moan about the IRFU/Provinces. You are such a hypocrite. If it was the Provinces behaving like this, you would go ballistic.

It can't be cheating unless a rule was broken. Is that too subtle for you to understand?

Spending huge money on players is fine with me as long as it is recorded as legally required in the accounts of the teams involved. That those figures WERE shown in the accounts is how the investigation into alleged breaches happened. Again, is that too subtle for you?

The Provinces can't act like this as they aren't transparent enough, nor do they have a cap, to be found out in the first place.

Again, is that too subtle for you? It seems so as you're keen to throw the abuse despite clearly being not bright enough to spot what is going on.

It's you that doesn't understand. You are wilfully blind. It's cheating, and you know it's cheating. They broke the rules. They just didn't break the law, apparently. Do you honestly believe that they would settle with the aggrieved clubs otherwise? Not a chance.

Again, you are either acting stupid, or are just plain stupid. The offending clubs got around the rules by using third party payments to the players. Is this too complex for you?

You're the one throwing all the abuse. You do this because your arguments are so weak, you resort to that type of nonsense to deflect. You never come up with evidence to back up your nonsense.


Last edited by Munchkin on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

No, you answer it.  You drive up any street trying to escape the logic cops.  Steve McQueen. Wink

A few days ago you were gushing about the transparency of the English and French system showing up the old hidden ways of IRFU.... and yet you quote IRFU notes and figures all the time (or allude to them)...  and of course you haven't a leg to stand with the 'transparency' argument.
But go on - explain that transparency point you were making again?

I didn't think that you could answer it. Instead, you just wrote some lies.

Awesome, honestly. Like debating with a 12 year old.

You're driving up another alley. You're running again. Your heartbeat stays calm when on the offensive, get's a little uptight when on the run. Explain to me again what the point was that you were making about English and French transparency. It's pertinent to this debate about facts, figures and numbers...

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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:05 pm

PhilBB wrote:You really should do some outreach work to the likes of munchkin and co.

I'm not articulating anything other than some pretty widely held views and opinions amongst Irish fans... what I think you'll find is that peoples perception of your own attitude shapes the nature of their response.

Anyway, I don't really have time to continue this conversation at present. Enjoy the game tonight, hopefully its a good one OK
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:05 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Well firstly there is no evidence to suggest that the IRFU are or will not be investing more in grassroots, they actually don't have any other choice given we can only sign 4 NIQ and it sounds like they want to eventually get it down to 3...but even if the IRFU didn't invest a penny, the school system is so good here that there will always be top players produced for the provinces. Leinster school cup games are regularly attended by crowds up around the 5/6k mark and the final has often gotten 20k in attendance. Every round is  also shown on Setanta.

That fist sentence is a perfect example of how this debate falls over.

I make the point that money diverted to the top end of the game is taken from other parts of the game. That's not a controversial point and it is factually correct as the same Euro cannot be spent twice. The reply? Your first sentence. It's an incredible logic leap to go from 'each Euro spent at the top doesn't go to the bottom' to 'no evidence the IRFU are not investing the grass roots'. Why on earth do you do that?
Why does money need to be taken from grassroots or anywhere?  Doesn't this article claim that we are receiving a big funding injection from the success of the national team amongst other things. The size of the academies has actually grown in recent years and we even have sub-academy contracted players now.

Why are we defending our system? Phil should be recommending it to the Region he supports. He should be saying the time for private individuals thinking they can fund professional rugby to the extent that it needs has come to an end in Wales. Time for the individuals to accept the buy outs - and look forward to stronger futures.

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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Notch wrote:
So do you think I see it for it really is? And does that bring you some measure of satisfaction?

You seem to be miles ahead of an extremely bad bunch on here, in all fairness.

You really should do some outreach work to the likes of munchkin and co.

Yes, you could do with someone else fighting your battles. Don't want you running away again...

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:33 pm

The continued aim of the IRFU is to keep pace with the English.

That is what we have been doing for the last 4 years - any increase reflects that.

We have long since realized we cannot compete with the top French teams and we do not do so.

It needs to be understood that most top English squads are bigger than the senior Irish provinces and that needs to be taken into account when adding up total wages.

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:32 pm

Only looked at one club each but Ulster have 47 players on the website as "1st team". Saracens have 41, and they've been cheating th cap for years. And that cap is going to be closer to £10M in a couple of years time.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:49 am

Ulster do have more than they have ever had before - usually we are about 34 + 6 development contracts
Should also add that a number of those players are on what we call development contract - 8/9 of the players listed.

Something like 15 of those players, including the development players, will be on less than £30,000 a year.

To go back to the wider point the English salary cap is our benchmark and we aim to have the 3 senior provinces matching that figure (this is inclusive of the central contracts)


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Post by wolfball Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:59 pm

Jaysus you cannot move in ireland for all the money being thrown around.. Champagne breakfasts at Connacht, the entire Leinster team live in the 4 Seasons, Munster all have new tractors and Ulster, well they are keeping things on the qt, but are swimming in it as we all know. Thank the lord for the IRFU propping up the Irish economy all these years.

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Post by wayne Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:
wayne wrote:
Just for another twist to the 60% DC offers, there is another Osprey that has just signed one of these, I have this on excellent authority, so that is yet more money available to us.

That's a shame.
Just to compound your shame, I've been told this afternoon, that it is NOT one Osprey that has signed a new DC with the WRU, it is FOUR, so by the looks of it the Under Armour money is going on DCs

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Post by marty2086 Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:21 pm

wayne wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
wayne wrote:
Just for another twist to the 60% DC offers, there is another Osprey that has just signed one of these, I have this on excellent authority, so that is yet more money available to us.

That's a shame.
Just to compound your shame, I've been told this afternoon, that it is NOT one Osprey that has signed a new DC with the WRU, it is FOUR, so by the looks of it the Under Armour money is going on DCs

With all this extra employees the WRU are taking on board its creates more conflicts of interests for Welsh refs Whistle

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