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IRFU to spend even more money on their wages.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Oct 2015, 1:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Irish rugby bosses will hand the four provinces an extra €3.2 million (£2.27m) a year to combat the threat of France's big-spending superpowers.

Philip Browne, chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), admitted the four provinces are "all struggling" to keep pace with their French counterparts.

The IRFU reported a surplus in excess of €8.7m (£6.18m) owing to ticket sales, new broadcasting deals and Ireland's two-straight Six Nations titles.

Browne admitted the IRFU have a duty to keep raising investment into Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster where possible.

"At professional game level it allows to start putting a little bit more money into the academy system and the elite player pool," said Browne.

"What we're trying to do with David Nucifora [performance director] is to try and drive the high-performance system through the age groups so that we have contact with kids at an earlier age.

"It obviously allows us to put a bit more money into the provinces who are all struggling to some extent in terms of financial pressures that are coming to bear because of the money in France.

"We're trying to make them financially viable and sustainable but at the same time we've got to try to put competitive teams on the park. So it's about all those things, it's really around the high-performance system and player contracts where that money goes."

In the 2013-14 season, the IRFU posted a surplus of €7.3m (£5.9m). A second-straight surplus leaves the organisation in rude health ahead of next month's Rugby World Cup.

Oh, and just to add a link about spending as our Irish friends on here like us to provide such things, here is the IRFU annual report:-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 201314.pdf
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 014_15.pdf

Looks like the Irish will be spending the highest in Europe now.


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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:15 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet. That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
You know Racing are paying him. I know Racing are paying him. Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him. The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:19 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:....................... he's being paid by Racing.  I don't care how technical the bluff might be.  But I'm telling you it's not even a bluff.  That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere.  Sponsors pay Racing.  Racing pay Carter.  A Lawyer wouldn't take too long finding the detail.  The point I suppose is that the Top14 organisers don't care.  It doesn't concern them.  It's Racing business.

AS per the standard on here

Link???

Scarlet I've added the link earlier on

No you have no.  You have provided a link that, again, says Carter is being paid 500k by Racing, and that he is expected to earn that much again through sponsorship deals etc.  There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

'€300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92, Racing’s new home from 2016 that will also host concerts and business conferences'

So yes it was already provided

No, again that is proof that it is not coming from Racing, but from the complain that own Racing's stadium.

So I will ask yet again, can you prove that Racing are actually paying more than the 500k?  Can you provide links to support your claim (rather than constantly disproving it yourself?)

Arena92s operating company and Racing 92 are all part of Lorenzettis holdings they are merely different divisions of his company

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet.  That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
 You know Racing are paying him.  I know Racing are paying him.  Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him.  The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

Your right Fly, you can not prove what you are saying is right. And there is a very good reason for why you can not prove it. That would be, wait for it as it may shock you, you are wrong.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:21 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:....................... he's being paid by Racing.  I don't care how technical the bluff might be.  But I'm telling you it's not even a bluff.  That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere.  Sponsors pay Racing.  Racing pay Carter.  A Lawyer wouldn't take too long finding the detail.  The point I suppose is that the Top14 organisers don't care.  It doesn't concern them.  It's Racing business.

AS per the standard on here

Link???

Scarlet I've added the link earlier on

No you have no.  You have provided a link that, again, says Carter is being paid 500k by Racing, and that he is expected to earn that much again through sponsorship deals etc.  There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

'€300,000 from the operating company of Arena 92, Racing’s new home from 2016 that will also host concerts and business conferences'

So yes it was already provided

No, again that is proof that it is not coming from Racing, but from the complain that own Racing's stadium.

So I will ask yet again, can you prove that Racing are actually paying more than the 500k?  Can you provide links to support your claim (rather than constantly disproving it yourself?)

Arena92s operating company and Racing 92 are all part of Lorenzettis holdings they are merely different divisions of his company

Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of? This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).
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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:21 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet.  That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
 You know Racing are paying him.  I know Racing are paying him.  Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him.  The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

Your right Fly, you can not prove what you are saying is right.  And there is a very good reason for why you can not prove it.  That would be, wait for it as it may shock you, you are wrong.


So your saying that Dan Carter won't have signed a contract?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Arena92s operating company and Racing 92 are all part of Lorenzettis holdings they are merely different divisions of his company

Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of?  This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).[/quote]

OVALTO Investissement who's President is........ drumroll

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet.  That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
 You know Racing are paying him.  I know Racing are paying him.  Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him.  The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

Your right Fly, you can not prove what you are saying is right.  And there is a very good reason for why you can not prove it.  That would be, wait for it as it may shock you, you are wrong.


So your saying that Dan Carter won't have signed a contract?

clap clap clap Fair play, that is good word twisting there.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:24 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Arena92s operating company and Racing 92 are all part of Lorenzettis holdings they are merely different divisions of his company

Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of?  This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).

OVALTO Investissement who's President is........ drumroll [/quote]

Link?
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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:25 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet.  That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
 You know Racing are paying him.  I know Racing are paying him.  Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him.  The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

Your right Fly, you can not prove what you are saying is right.  And there is a very good reason for why you can not prove it.  That would be, wait for it as it may shock you, you are wrong.


So your saying that Dan Carter won't have signed a contract?

clap clap clap   Fair play, that is good word twisting there.

No twisting your saying that because Fly can't produce the contract, if he's wrong can you show us the contract for his image rights then?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:26 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Arena92s operating company and Racing 92 are all part of Lorenzettis holdings they are merely different divisions of his company

Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of?  This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).

OVALTO Investissement who's President is........ drumroll

Link?[/quote]

Go Google!

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:30 pm

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Arena92s operating company and Racing 92 are all part of Lorenzettis holdings they are merely different divisions of his company

Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of?  This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).

OVALTO Investissement who's President is........ drumroll

Link?

Go Google![/quote]

I am afraid Marty that is not how these things work. You have made a statement that you have obviously researched, so it is your duty to show the evidence. That is how this works. After all if you have done the research then providing a link should be easy right?


As for the contract, I said Fly could not produce the contract that says Racing will pay Carter the 1m, including the sponsorship money, as opposed to only 500k, and the rest coming from the sponsors themselves.
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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:33 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet.  That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
 You know Racing are paying him.  I know Racing are paying him.  Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him.  The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

Your right Fly, you can not prove what you are saying is right.  And there is a very good reason for why you can not prove it.  That would be, wait for it as it may shock you, you are wrong.


Wink You're bending around too much there Scarlet. You've become a loophole yourself, trying to deny the logic that Racing will be paying Carter way more than 500,000. Sexton was getting two hundred thousand more than him....!

But stick to the loophole as a get-out-of-jail card. I don't care.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:37 pm

You also said that Fly was wrong, by your logic you need to show that his image rights are owned elsewhere

And I don't need to do anything, I know I'm right, you know I'm right so raspberry

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:39 pm

Yeah, contracts please Scarlets. I'll give you more time than you gave me in telling me I was wrong. I'm away for the next fifteen minutes or so.

Have them e-mailed to me before then. Wink

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is nothing in that article that backs up Fly's argument "That arrangement will be in legal print somewhere".   And if anything it the link you have provided shows that Carter is technically being paid inside of the salary cap (via loopholes).

So can either of you provide a link that back up your claims that he is being paid !m by Racing?

How the hell can I have a contract to show you, Scarlet.  That would be espionage and I'd probably go to prison Wink
 You know Racing are paying him.  I know Racing are paying him.  Top 14 organisers know Racing are paying him.  The million or thereabouts will be because of Racing organising it.

Your right Fly, you can not prove what you are saying is right.  And there is a very good reason for why you can not prove it.  That would be, wait for it as it may shock you, you are wrong.


Wink  You're bending around too much there Scarlet.  You've become a loophole yourself, trying to deny the logic that Racing will be paying Carter way more than 500,000.  Sexton was getting two hundred thousand more than him....!  

But stick to the loophole as a get-out-of-jail card.  I don't care.

I hate loopholes, and grey areas. I am a simple person who would rather live in a clear cut black and white world. The only reason I am sticking to my guns on this one, is that the world does have grey areas, and this is one. Also, it is pretty enjoyable knowing that I am actually in a position where I am 'debating' with Irish fans and I am technically right. Oh and also, I am in a position to request links and proof off people to prove things that I know are untrue.

But yes, Carter is getting paid a heap of dosh, and it is only because he is playing for Racing that these sponsors are paying him.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:43 pm

marty2086 wrote:You also said that Fly was wrong, by your logic you need to show that his image rights are owned elsewhere

And I don't need to do anything, I know I'm right, you know I'm right so raspberry

Keep telling yourself that, maybe if you believe it enough it may be true.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:44 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, contracts please Scarlets.  I'll give you more time than you gave me in telling me I was wrong.  I'm away for the next fifteen minutes or so.  

Have them e-mailed to me before then. Wink

Have you received them yet?

I emailed them to IrishJamesBond(at)IRFU.com is that right?
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:48 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of? This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).

You gotta love em Irish on here, when it suits them, everything is different, like the Irish refs, and the Provinces and the Union are all separate. But when it's things like this, they are all the same.

If you ask me, what Toulon are doing with Dan Carter, is no different to what the IRFU do with all their subsidiaries, but of course I will have the Irish mafia on here telling me how wrong I am in a minute.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:49 pm

Really?

http://jdsa.eu/are/
Client-OVALTO Onvestissement

http://www.terreis.fr/fr/societe/gouvernance.html
Jacky LORENZETTI
Président fondateur de TERREIS
•Ecole Hôtelière de Lausanne
•Président fondateur de Foncia Groupe de 1972 à 2008 : introduction en bourse en avril 2001, cession de sa participation en avril 2007
•Président fondateur depuis 2000 d’Ovalto Investissement, holding de contrôle des activités du groupe (immobilier, viticulture, sport et finance)




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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ok, so what Company are both Racing 92 and Arena92s part of? This is definitely not something that will require espionage for you to be able to prove (if it is true).

You gotta love em Irish on here, when it suits them, everything is different, like the Irish refs, and the Provinces and the Union are all separate. But when it's things like this, they are all the same.

If you ask me, what Toulon are doing with Dan Carter, is no different to what the IRFU do with all their subsidiaries, but of course I will have the Irish mafia on here telling me how wrong I am in a minute.

I hope Racing don't find out about that

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:Really?

http://jdsa.eu/are/
Client-OVALTO Onvestissement

http://www.terreis.fr/fr/societe/gouvernance.html
Jacky LORENZETTI
Président fondateur de TERREIS
•Ecole Hôtelière de Lausanne
•Président fondateur de Foncia Groupe de 1972 à 2008 : introduction en bourse en avril 2001, cession de sa participation en avril 2007
•Président fondateur depuis 2000 d’Ovalto Investissement, holding de contrôle des activités du groupe (immobilier, viticulture, sport et finance)




You still are not there are you.  That shows that Ovalto own Arena92, but not hat they on Racing Metro 92. It shows Jacky is involved with both, as we knew already, but not that Racing and Arena92 (or Ovalto, or any other company that Jacky is involved with) are all part of the same company.


Last edited by ScarletSpiderman on Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:54 pm

Oh and by the way, the operating company will be another end run around the financial regulations.

Racing don't take on the debt of the stadium so don't get punished for being in debt

Its smart business, a bit like get favourable terms on loans

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:54 pm

The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:56 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Really?

http://jdsa.eu/are/
Client-OVALTO Onvestissement

http://www.terreis.fr/fr/societe/gouvernance.html
Jacky LORENZETTI
Président fondateur de TERREIS
•Ecole Hôtelière de Lausanne
•Président fondateur de Foncia Groupe de 1972 à 2008 : introduction en bourse en avril 2001, cession de sa participation en avril 2007
•Président fondateur depuis 2000 d’Ovalto Investissement, holding de contrôle des activités du groupe (immobilier, viticulture, sport et finance)




You still are not there are you.  That shows that Ovalto own Arena92, but not hat they on Racing Metro 92.  

I'm sorry who owns them all? If you want conclusive proof and keep being an ass but you know I'm right and you know between me and Google Translate I'd get there but you keep saying I'm not thumbsup

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:56 pm

You're all saying pretty much the same thing.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:56 pm

marty2086 wrote:Oh and by the way, the operating company will be another end run around the financial regulations.

Racing don't take on the debt of the stadium so don't get punished for being in debt

Its smart business, a bit like get favourable terms on loans

Yeah smart business, keep all your businesses as separate entities and then you can fold one company without losing any other company. But they are then indeed separate companies, which is not the same as you have been saying (until the quoted post).
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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

You've got a refs payslip there then from the IRFU?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

You've got a refs payslip there then from the IRFU?

You got Dan Carters ?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:59 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Oh and by the way, the operating company will be another end run around the financial regulations.

Racing don't take on the debt of the stadium so don't get punished for being in debt

Its smart business, a bit like get favourable terms on loans

Yeah smart business, keep all your businesses as separate entities and then you can fold one company without losing any other company.  But they are then indeed separate companies, which is not the same as you have been saying (until the quoted post).

Again its a grey area, Racing and Arena92 would file separate accounts but their profits, losses and assets would form part of the accounts of the parent company

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:59 pm

Marty, it is very different in a legal way. As you have said in one of our posts earlier. Jacky may own them all, but with them all being separate entities they are in fact not the same company. You have done a very good job in proving that for me.

I do get what you mean, and it is all Jacky's cash that will pay Carter's wages, but not all from Racing, so not against the cap (which is what started this off). Hug
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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

You've got a refs payslip there then from the IRFU?

You got Dan Carters ?

From Racing? How can I have something that doesn't exist?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:02 pm

marty2086 wrote:From Racing? How can I have something that doesn't exist?

If it does not exist, then how do you claim to know so much about it ?

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:From Racing? How can I have something that doesn't exist?

If it does not exist, then how do you claim to know so much about it ?

Well he's not yet been paid by Racing his contract doesn't start until Nov 1st if I remember correctly, the little matter of a Rugby Championship World Cup going on

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

YES, but as SS has been trying to tell you, they are two separate entities. One is a rugby club, the other is another company altogether. Yes they are owned by the same person, but that is the loophole. Racing are not going to pay Dan Carter 1m a year, they are paying him half that, with the other half coming from another source, albeit, out of the same mans pocket, but that is the loophole, yes it stinks, but that is where we are. It is the same as the Provinces/Branches/Referees in Ireland all come under different things, but at the end of the day they all belong to the IRFU, what is the difference ?

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Post by TJ Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Spend,spend,spend. If you cant beat em, join em.

It just goes to show the disparity in the Pro12. There really should be a salary cap in our league. At the moment the Irish are spending more than the French.

No it doesn't 'cos you are comparing apples and pears. Some of this money would be seen as spending by the governing body in other nations - to get a fair comparison you would have to add the english leagues salary cap to the amounts coming from the RFU to support clubs - ie the payments for access to players and also the money the RFU spends on academies etc.

Also every team in the pro 12 bar the two italians has exactly the same chance of gaining as much funding

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

YES, but as SS has been trying to tell you, they are two separate entities. One is a rugby club, the other is another company altogether. Yes they are owned by the same person, but that is the loophole. Racing are not going to pay Dan Carter 1m a year, they are paying him half that, with the other half coming from another source, albeit, out of the same mans pocket, but that is the loophole, yes it stinks, but that is where we are. It is the same as the Provinces/Branches/Referees in Ireland all come under different things, but at the end of the day they all belong to the IRFU, what is the difference ?

Actually its pretty much the same

The IRFU is essentially the holding company of the provinces

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:15 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:Actually its pretty much the same

The IRFU is essentially the holding company of the provinces

HOORAY, HOORAY. At last you admit something. Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:17 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

Yep that is certainly proof, however it is proof of what I have been saying since the very start of this, Racing and Ovalto are two separate companies.

How do you come to that conclusion?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Actually its pretty much the same

The IRFU is essentially the holding company of the provinces

HOORAY, HOORAY. At last you admit something. Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

Ermmm hate to burst your bubble but where has anyone said anything otherwise?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

The Regions are paid by more than one company. The AP sides get paid by more than one company. The Top14 don't pay anyone...too stingy, and it's not in the contracts that they have to Whistle

So what's the point again? Irish rugby is corrupt because the IRFU pay the refs and the Irish based players? The WRU do pay the refs but don't pay Welsh based players?


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:24 pm

The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

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Post by Pete330v2 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

Maybe the WRU should, it might drum up a bit of interest in the game. Playing to full stadiums tends to drum up a good bit of revenue you know......oh no, you don't do you......

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

The Regions are paid by more than one company.  The AP sides get paid by more than one company.  The Top14 don't pay anyone...too stingy, and it's not in the contracts that they have to Whistle

So what's the point again?  Irish rugby is corrupt because the IRFU pay the refs and the Irish based players?  The WRU do pay the refs but don't pay Welsh based players?


Except for those on national contracts but that was the WRU said they were employees which sounds like something Lewis would say so obviously made up so therefore Regions=Good IRFU and province=corrupt

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:27 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

Maybe the WRU should, it might drum up a bit of interest in the game. Playing to full stadiums tends to drum up a good bit of revenue you know......oh no, you don't do you......

Yes we know, we were the most supported side in all the WC pools don't you know ?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:IRFU and province=corrupt

I have never said that. Unless this post was aimed at somebody else ?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The WRU pays for the use of the Welsh players, they do not pay the wages of all the players based in Wales and the referees, like the IRFU do in Ireland. OK

So its only dodgy if they pay for all the players? Whys that/ Because it suits you?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:IRFU and province=corrupt

I have never said that. Unless this post was aimed at somebody else ?

It was a generalisation but if that isn't your problem then why such an issue over it all?

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 3:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The principle is the same Marty and you know it. The IRFU pay the Irish refs and the Irish based players, yet if we listen to you it is not true. But now that SS is telling you that Dan Carter is getting paid by two different companies you are trying your up-most to prove him wrong.

What is the difference ?

It's a strong link, LD, with Ovalto being the investment holding company.


Jacky LORENZETTI
Founding President of TERREIS
Lausanne Hotel School
President founder of Foncia Groupe 1972 to 2008: IPO in April 2001 sale of its stake in April 2007
Founding president since 2000 Ovalto Investment holding company of the group's activities (real estate, wine, sport and finance)

Proof

YES, but as SS has been trying to tell you, they are two separate entities. One is a rugby club, the other is another company altogether. Yes they are owned by the same person, but that is the loophole. Racing are not going to pay Dan Carter 1m a year, they are paying him half that, with the other half coming from another source, albeit, out of the same mans pocket, but that is the loophole, yes it stinks, but that is where we are. It is the same as the Provinces/Branches/Referees in Ireland all come under different things, but at the end of the day they all belong to the IRFU, what is the difference ?

In this case I would think Lorenzetti is the entity. I get what you're saying about the loophole, and if it's possible to get away with it, then a loophole it is.

Yes, the Provinces are owned by the IRFU, and the IRFU ensure that the Provinces play by the rules. No loopholes, just restrictions on what we can spend by enforcing how many NIQ we spend on, and in what positions they play.

It isn't the same, LD. If one of the Provinces somehow removed themselves from IRFU ownership, set up a separate company, and paid players via that company to bypass league rules, then you would be right.

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