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Aviva Premiership- Round 2

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 20 Oct 2015, 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

League Positions:

Saracens 5
Gloucester 4
Leicester 4
Harlequins 4
Bath 4
Worcester 4
Northampton 1
Exeter 1
Wasps 1
Newcastle 0
London Irish 0
Sale 0



Fixtures:

Fri 23rd Oct 15

19:45 Gloucester v Saracens BT Sport
Both teams won last week and both looked impressive. Saracens will look to welcome the rest of their England contingent back to the fold and will be looking to make a real statement of intent this week. Glaws may also see some returnees, certainly no reason why hook should not play given he was around for much of pre-season and did not start for Wales. Following WC heartbreak though surely Greg Laidlaw will have a week off. Whether Hook or 12T is at 10 for the home team, you can be sure that Saracens will be trying to harry them. Really hoping we can see a head to head between Kvesic and Fraser. Also hoping that May is fit to play opposite Ashton.


20:00 Sale v Worcester
After a reasonable pre-season Sale were absolutely mullered by a highly efficient Sarries at the weekend. Steve Diamond will have read the riot act and this really is a must win game for them. Worcester may have surprised even themselves in beating Saints. That win will give them a little breathing space and also the confidence to believe the can travel up the M5/6 and pinch another win.



Sat 24th Oct 15

13:45 Northampton v Newcastle
Two sides who lost at the weekend, when both will have been expecting to win. With Franklin's Gardens being extended, Saints open their home season at Stadium mk and will be desperate to put a very poor performance at Sixways behind them. There was a real lack of ideas from the men in green who seemed to believe that they would just turn up and overpower Worcester. Add in some wonky throwing (and daft penalties) from former skipper Hartley and Saints were never able to impose themselves. Reports suggest that Falcons struggled a little at scrum time and massively at the breakdown - these will need to be addressed if their taleneted back line is not to find itself over-run.


14:00 Wasps v Bath
Wasps lost at the Stoop last week having resisted the urge to rush back their WC players. Looking decent in attack they struggled at the set piece and in defence. Fluidity improved when the replacements, most notably Robson, came on - but that may well have been due to the drop in intensity from Quins. Bath struggled in pre-season and should really have lost for the third time in a month to Exeter last weekend. Poor composure from the Chiefs plus a little Ford magic helped Bath squeak home. They will have to play better this weekend.


18:00 Exeter v London Irish
London Irish have a desperately difficult start to the season, with their most winnable fixture having been last weekend when Tigers came avisiting. Adding that defeat to 3 in pre-season and a visit to Sandy Lane is not what new coach Coventry would have been wanting, especially with Saracens and Bath up next. Both teams lost scrappy encounters that they feel they should have got more from. Exeter made innumerable visits to the Bath 22 leaving pointless far too often, while London Irish dropped the ball unopposed over the line and were held up on a second occasion. Exeter should be too strong and will probably look to involve England returnees Slade (starting rather than from the bench), Parling and Nowell. Exeter should be far too strong, especially if Paice is as wonky with his throwing for a second week.



Sun 25th Oct 15

14:00 Leicester v Harlequins BT Sport
Both teams won at the weekend, though Quins were probably more convincing. Leicester should be stronger this week as they re-integrate WC returnees and players who missed last week with niggles. Harlequins will however travel up to the East Midland firmly believing they can win and keen to put last seasons woeful performance in Friday night rain behind them. Breakdown will be key. Tigers are looking to play a much quicker game this season but that can be easily stemmed if Quins slow down possession. Meanwhile Tigers have to ensure that Quins do not build any offloading momentum. Probably will not be a classic as both teams will need a while to be at full oomph as new players and styles of play are introduced.


Last edited by LondonTiger on Fri 23 Oct 2015, 7:48 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:25 pm

Young's isn't as bad at the set peice as people makes out. But we won't get into that

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:26 pm

Get in!

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:26 pm

Agree - George / Hartley.

Hartley doesn't carry enough as he should...but we saw how much set piece security is essential and him and George offer that.

Bring in more carrying elsewhere in the pack to make up for it.

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:27 pm

Nice to see two young English 7's playing well.

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:28 pm

We don't have that elsewhere in the pack though as was pretty evident in the rwc

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:28 pm

Was that another turnover for Fraser??

Hartley can do the basics which Youngs can't though, I'd plump that way every time.

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:29 pm

I know scrums aren't straight these days but that one was appalling right in front of the ref!

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:30 pm

Young's can do the basics though, he's had a few high profile errors and so now folks think he's Poopie

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:30 pm

Great to Ben Morgan playing well

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:31 pm

Yes but the pack has to change and bring carriers in.

IN England run out with the same pack in the 6n I will despair.

Yes Sgt Frasrer playing exceptionally well...as Kvesic did last week against us He's not as noticeable tonight mind.

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:32 pm

Just went away for two...was that Kruis MOTM?

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:33 pm

Why does it, the pack went well before the warm up games

All though there will be those that are over the hill


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:33 pm

Hope Fraser stays fit.

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:35 pm

nathan wrote:Young's can do the basics though, he's had a few high profile errors and so now folks think he's Poopie

Not to the same level I don't think he can. I never feel 100% confident with him there. With Hartley I do..and Geroge is putting in a good shout of bringing that same confidence...

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:36 pm

nathan wrote:Why does it, the pack went well before the warm up games

AH ive argued for the last 2 years that the pack is not right Nathan. But that's for the England threads not here.

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
nathan wrote:Young's can do the basics though, he's had a few high profile errors and so now folks think he's Poopie

Not to the same level I don't think he can. I never feel 100% confident with him there. With Hartley I do..and Geroge is putting in a good shout of bringing that same confidence...

I never feel 100% confident that Hartley won't do something stupid and get carded

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:38 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
nathan wrote:Why does it, the pack went well before the warm up games

AH ive argued for the last 2 years that the pack is not right Nathan. But that's for the England threads not here.

Yeah sure, will save it for another thread. Just think he gets a rough deal by fans in here

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope Fraser stays fit.

That's a big thing isn't it.

Apparently he had a big op in the summer to fix the issue once and for all. See how it goes. Would be nice to see him get a really good run injury free now. See how he can progress.

I still like Kvesic aswell though.

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:40 pm

nathan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
nathan wrote:Why does it, the pack went well before the warm up games

AH ive argued for the last 2 years that the pack is not right Nathan. But that's for the England threads not here.

Yeah sure, will save it for another thread. Just think he gets a rough deal by fans in here

He probably does more than he should. I don't dislike Tom Youngs. I actually rate him highly. I think his work around the field etc is excellent. I just personally think that his core skills for his position arent quite as strong as some of his competitors for the position.

PS if you were to go back through the endless England threads through the last few years you will see me endlessly complaining about the balance of the pack and lack of carriers etc. I'm like a broken down record player. But at least I feel justified after the performance in the WC  Very Happy


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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:41 pm

Youngs just isn't a top hooker. You can't be that bad at your basics and still play Int rugby imo. Agree though, we've done it death.

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Post by nathan Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:45 pm

That's it though, he isn't that bad.

Anyway, sad to see moneybags win tonight...

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:46 pm

Godawful game.

Godawful ref.

How he allowed Farrell to stay on the pitch after Farrell's constant shouting I will never know.

Less said about the croooked scrums and lineouts he let slip the better.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:49 pm

Seconded

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 23 Oct 2015, 9:54 pm

nathan wrote:That's it though, he isn't that bad.

That's not really what you're looking for your starting hooker.

As much as Tigers fans defend him, his basics are just not up to standard to play at the top level, it's that simple. We need a hooker who can scrum and throw to high standard, everything else is a bonus.

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Post by HongKongCherry Fri 23 Oct 2015, 10:12 pm

That's 80 minutes of my life I won't get back. Dire game and a truly awful ref.
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Post by LondonTiger Fri 23 Oct 2015, 10:20 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nathan wrote:That's it though, he isn't that bad.

That's not really what you're looking for your starting hooker.

As much as Tigers fans defend him, his basics are just not up to standard to play at the top level, it's that simple. We need a hooker who can scrum and throw to high standard, everything else is a bonus.

I am happy to see someone else have a go - but as of yet I have not seen any AP hooker who throws better, while scrummaging will always be a matter of opinion.

Take George tonight - people wail about Youngs only throwing short and middle, yet George was exactly the same with ever throw being crooked, just not crooked enough to upset Carley. His scrummaging was average at best.


I truly want England to pick a better hooker than Youngs, as if we are to actually contend for titles we need to - just do not believe there is anyone obviously better. George coudl become that player - but right now his own basics are substandard too.

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Post by Geordie Fri 23 Oct 2015, 10:34 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:That's 80 minutes of my life I won't get back. Dire game and a truly awful ref.

I am not one to blame the ref I prefer to play to the ref. However I did have my thoughts on the ref in our game last week, and indeed many falcons were quite vocal about it.

It concerns me that the refereeing is so poor in the prem.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 23 Oct 2015, 10:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:That's 80 minutes of my life I won't get back. Dire game and a truly awful ref.

I am not one to blame the ref I prefer to play to the ref. However I did have my thoughts on the ref in our game last week, and indeed many falcons were quite vocal about it.

It concerns me that the refereeing is so poor in the prem.

I agree. But then I saw who we get for our first ECC match.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 23 Oct 2015, 10:59 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Godawful game.

Godawful ref.

How he allowed Farrell to stay on the pitch after Farrell's constant shouting I will never know.

Less said about the croooked scrums and lineouts he let slip the better.

He let wonky lineouts and squint feeds go on Sunday as well.
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Post by Heaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 12:57 am

Although he did call a knock on against LI where the player regathered the ball without it touching the ground or another player bizarrely ...

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Post by haircut Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:29 am

why have we got hook at 10 ? doesn't kick for goal. not the playmaker. stopped crabbing across field after much criticism but all he s done is pass earlier , hospital mostly. a disappointment and a con every club he's been I reckon. move him on . get an English guy in there.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Sat 24 Oct 2015, 8:19 am

Heaf wrote:Although he did call a knock on against LI where the player regathered the ball without it touching the ground or another player bizarrely ...

I presume you're talking about the Lewington one. That bafiled me a bit as well.
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Post by LondonTiger Sat 24 Oct 2015, 8:40 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:
Heaf wrote:Although he did call a knock on against LI where the player regathered the ball without it touching the ground or another player bizarrely ...

I presume you're talking about the Lewington one.  That bafiled me a bit as well.

On first view it did look like a knock on. He also let both sides away with ones where they knock the ball forward while running and it lands behind them, but still forward.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Sat 24 Oct 2015, 8:55 am

Yeah, to be fair, he was pretty crap, but crap to both teams equally, so at least it didn't affect the outcome of the game.
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Post by HongKongCherry Sat 24 Oct 2015, 9:01 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:That's 80 minutes of my life I won't get back. Dire game and a truly awful ref.

I am not one to blame the ref I prefer to play to the ref. However I did have my thoughts on the ref in our game last week, and indeed many falcons were quite vocal about it.

It concerns me that the refereeing is so poor in the prem.

I thought the ref last week was rather good Wink

There are a few decent refs in the Jeff but there seems to be a plethora of rubbish. Or maybe I'm just bitter that last night was the 6th time we've been reffed by that chap and we've lost all 6!
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Post by Heaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 9:49 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:
Heaf wrote:Although he did call a knock on against LI where the player regathered the ball without it touching the ground or another player bizarrely ...

I presume you're talking about the Lewington one.  That bafiled me a bit as well.

Yep that's the one ... the AR awarding a throw in to Tigers when their player had run the ball into touch was anther odd call.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 24 Oct 2015, 9:51 am

HongKongCherry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
HongKongCherry wrote:That's 80 minutes of my life I won't get back. Dire game and a truly awful ref.

I am not one to blame the ref I prefer to play to the ref. However I did have my thoughts on the ref in our game last week, and indeed many falcons were quite vocal about it.

It concerns me that the refereeing is so poor in the prem.

I thought the ref last week was rather good Wink

There are a few decent refs in the Jeff but there seems to be a plethora of rubbish. Or maybe I'm just bitter that last night was the 6th time we've been reffed by that chap and we've lost all 6!

His reffing in our game last week was very poor. He basically didn't allow to compete at the breakdown yet kept pinging us for holding on. Gloucester fully deserved the win I might add, we were dross.

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Post by Heaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 9:58 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:
Heaf wrote:Although he did call a knock on against LI where the player regathered the ball without it touching the ground or another player bizarrely ...

I presume you're talking about the Lewington one.  That bafiled me a bit as well.

On first view it did look like a knock on. He also let both sides away with ones where they knock the ball forward while running and it lands behind them, but still forward.

I was there LT and whilst he bobbled the ball a lot, in real time it didn't look like a knock on to us as it never went near the ground or another player - at least that's what it looked like live to me and other people around me as everyone instantly asked why he'd blown. I agree he was consistently missing/ignoring things involving the ball going forwards/not straight which made it even more ironic that he called a knock on that wasn't.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Sat 24 Oct 2015, 10:14 am

Having consulted a friend who is a ref, it was technically a knock on, as it hit his heel, which for the purpose of it being kicked does not count.  He did say he would never give it and most refs wouldn't, so a harsh but not technically incorrrect call.
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Post by little_badger Sat 24 Oct 2015, 10:47 am

In an awful game last night I thought Kvesic and particularly Fraser played well. Fraser was particularly excellent at the breakdown, won at least 2 penalties and Kvesic had a lovely moment where he gathered the ball in the middle beat a defender, drew a man and threw a lovely pass out wide.

On another note 12Trees then butchered an opportunity to put Jonny May away. He's so inconsistent.


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Post by yappysnap Sat 24 Oct 2015, 11:19 am

In Twelvetrees defence I did think May was really unsympathetic with his positioning, he was a good distance away, pretty far behind Twelvetrees and out of his peripheral vision. Twelvetrees had a split second before he was hit.

At a sprint I don't think they would have managed/caught that pass anyway

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Post by nathan Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:00 pm

little_badger wrote:In an awful game last night I thought Kvesic and particularly Fraser played well. Fraser was particularly excellent at the breakdown, won at least 2 penalties and Kvesic had a lovely moment where he gathered the ball in the middle beat a defender, drew a man and threw a lovely pass out wide.

On another note 12Trees then butchered an opportunity to put Jonny May away. He's so inconsistent.


Inconsistent, that's the story of his life. He was like it at tigers too

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Post by Heaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:07 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Having consulted a friend who is a ref, it was technically a knock on, as it hit his heel, which for the purpose of it being kicked does not count.  He did say he would never give it and most refs wouldn't, so a harsh but not technically incorrrect call.

Interesting, that's a new one on me - didn't Zebo score a try for Ireland a couple of years ago after flicking the ball forwards with his heel?

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Post by yappysnap Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:33 pm

No he Frak up the catch and dropped it ironically

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Post by Guest Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:55 pm

Heaf wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:Having consulted a friend who is a ref, it was technically a knock on, as it hit his heel, which for the purpose of it being kicked does not count.  He did say he would never give it and most refs wouldn't, so a harsh but not technically incorrrect call.

Interesting, that's a new one on me - didn't Zebo score a try for Ireland a couple of years ago after flicking the ball forwards with his heel?

He didn't drop it on to his heel, his first contact of the ball was with his foot as he flicked it up into his hands.

Edit: Just to add I can't remember the knock-on from the LI match so I have no idea what happened.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 24 Oct 2015, 1:58 pm

Typical poor Falcons start, 10-0 down after 10.

Our defence looks more aggressive but Saints look strong. Getting pinged off park again already (no real grumbles). It's going to be a long season as a Falcons fan.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 24 Oct 2015, 2:01 pm

Great break Hammersely, really looking good this season

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 24 Oct 2015, 2:09 pm

Our scrum is looking excellent, I'm in shock.....

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 24 Oct 2015, 3:02 pm

Saints offering very little outside of the rolling maul, they look pretty average. Seeing us off at the minute though we the extra power

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 24 Oct 2015, 3:25 pm

After losing to Worcester they will be happy with the TBP win, irrespective of the style.

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