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Ireland 2016 Squad

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nathan
Don Alfonso
pete (buachaill on eirne)
Marshes
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Post by profitius Tue 20 Oct 2015, 2:13 pm

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 20 Oct 2015, 8:53 pm

What size is the player squad for the Six Nations?

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Post by Notch Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:06 pm

There's no real limit. It can run up to 40 players initially, and then as the tournament goes on its normally cut down to the core 25 or 26 players that constitute the squad with other players dropping in and out as they are needed or injuries etc. take their toll. I'd like to see McCloskey come in and one or two others but to be honest it's not like there is anyone that wasn't included in the original extended squad for the warm-ups that stands out as being a big omission.


Last edited by Notch on Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by westisbest Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:09 pm

Would like to see Trimble back in the irish set up.

McCloskey looks a very good centre.

Be good to see him involved.

Marmion and McGrath fighting it out as back up to Murray

Matt Healy to, be good to see some more Connacht lads involved

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Post by profitius Tue 20 Oct 2015, 9:57 pm

westisbest wrote:
Matt Healy to, be good to see some more Connacht lads involved


I'd also add Eoghan Masterson to my list. Forgot about him.
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Post by carpet baboon Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:10 pm

Who's the young second row from Connacht? Heard good things

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Post by Sin é Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:15 pm

westisbest wrote:
Marmion and McGrath fighting it out as back up to Murray

Tomas O'Leary is back with Munster and made his first appearance of the season last Saturday. He was excellent.
Not sure about his fitness though - he seems to have had a lot of problems with his back over the last few years, but if he can play as well as he did in his first outing of the season, he should be considered as Murray's backup.
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Post by Golden Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:35 pm

I would like that to be the last Ireland squad Isaac Boss, Mike McCarthy and probably Reddan will be included in. Darcy and poc are already gone.

Ross had a good world cup but I think he needs to be used sparingly as Moore and Furlong come through.

Foley, Stander, Marmion, Olding and McCloskey are players I would like to see get game time in the 6 nations. Jackson to start a couple too

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Post by ME-109 Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:11 pm

Any or all of the above. Once they can tackle, resource rucks and have experience in playing "join the dots' then they should be included.

Disclaimer: May not actually be required to pass an oval shaped ball.

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Post by KiaRose Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:22 pm

What I would really like to see is the IRFU to redefine their strategic goals and for those to be over a four-year rather than a one-year period. At present their focus is on the 6Ns because that is their cash-cow. I understand that but ... We are a tier one rugby playing nation; we have ascended to the dizzying heights of ranked 2 in the world (albeit very briefly and we are now down at 6 I think); we go into the RWC with lots of hype (this year and particularly 2007) and collapse at the first ko hurdle.

Defining the RWC as a strategic goal would mean a four-year cycle and probably sacrificing the 6Ns immediately after each RWC. I would like players who wear shirts numbered 6-15 who are 30 or over to seriously consider retirement from international selection so that we can start blooding replacements and combinations during the forthcoming 6Ns. For those with jerseys 1-5, I would set the age limit at 32 because there is lots of evidence that tight five forwards mature later and have greater longevity in the game (barring injuries, of course). Nobody is irreplaceable!!

I would like the Ireland coaching team to sit down as the squads re-gather after the summer holidays, with the four provincial coaches and discuss and plan a way forward so that they all at least know what page in the hymn book they are on. When Rob Penney came to Munster, one of the first people he went to see was Declan Kidney. He was lambasted in the media because they assumed he was trying to get preferential treatment for his provincial players. He explained that this was what happened in NZ i.e. Super 15 coaches sat down at the beginning of the season with the national coach for a planning session. Why not here?

Although it doesn't happen in RWC years, there is usually an Ireland camp held early in the pre-season. Let the national coach pick the established players for that but I would like to see the provincial coaches nominating a few players who they consider to be promising international material for that camp. It would not interfere much with the pre-season and would give the national coaching team a chance to look at players who may only yet be playing in the A teams.

I would also like to see some positive movement between the provinces. At the moment there is a perception that some provinces are favoured over others in terms of player being moved to the favoured one. But, for example, Leinster have had a problem generating second rows. There is a young lad, Darren O'Shea from Crosshaven who went to Worcester because there was little or no possibility of him progressing to the Munster first team. While he was moving, Leinster were desperately looking for a second row - why did he not go to them? Promising players who are third or fourth in the pecking order in one province should be encouraged to move to another where they could get more game time or at least be higher in the pecking order.

It won't happen but ... that's my Christmas Rugby wish list.

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Post by Marshes Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:34 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Who's the young second row from Connacht? Heard good things

Ultan Dillane I think you mean, looks very promising! I would also add Denis Buckley to that list at the top.

Trimble back in for me, as well as Gilroy, Marmion and Olding. How is Luke Marshall faring?

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Post by eirebilly Wed 21 Oct 2015, 5:23 am

I would like to see JJ Hanrahan involved in the squad. Get him in early to give him the exposure so that he can learn as I feel he is Irelands biggest talent.
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Post by carpet baboon Wed 21 Oct 2015, 7:09 am

Marshes wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Who's the young second row from Connacht? Heard good things

Ultan Dillane I think you mean, looks very promising! I would also add Denis Buckley to that list at the top.

Trimble back in for me, as well as Gilroy, Marmion and Olding. How is Luke Marshall faring?

That's the fella, big but athletic looking youth

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Post by rodders Wed 21 Oct 2015, 9:15 am

eirebilly wrote:I would like to see JJ Hanrahan involved in the squad. Get him in early to give him the exposure so that he can learn as I feel he is Irelands biggest talent.

He's way down the pecking order at Saints so unless he can get game time he shouldn't be near the squad - looks like a bad move already.

As well as the guys in the RWC squad the usual names mentioned above - Trimble, Stander, Olding, McCloskey, Reid, Gilroy, Touhy, Foley, Luke McGrath, Marmion, Felix Jones and co would add a bit more depth and competition and fresh faces...
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Post by Pete330v2 Wed 21 Oct 2015, 9:47 am

I will just say this.
If Stuart McCloskey isn't included and playing 12 with Henshaw outside him I'm going to kick and scream. They are the future I tells ya, get them together ASAP, move Henshaw to Ulster and we'll play Payne in our 15 shirt where he belongs Smile

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Post by Exiled Gael Wed 21 Oct 2015, 11:21 am

From a man who knows:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-coaching-players-younger-must-become-priority-1.2399288

'We don’t have an offloading culture in Irish rugby. We go to ground and ruck it'.

That's among a litany of other really well thought out arguments. I'd love to hear what SecretFly thinks of Darcy's argument. It would fall in with some of the things you were saying and some of what I was saying about skills, instinct, athleticism etc.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Wed 21 Oct 2015, 11:56 am

The most important addition to the Irish team is our new defense coach,hopefully Schmidt has someone lined up so we don't ever again see the passive narrow defensive line we saw last week.We'll find out soon whether it was a player or coaching issue!

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Post by Golden Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:08 pm


"The best passer in Ireland at the moment is Noel Reid, but he didn’t make it to the World Cup."


Interesting statement by DArcy.

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Post by Sin é Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:52 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:The most important addition to the Irish team is our new defense coach,hopefully Schmidt has someone lined up so we don't ever again see the passive narrow defensive line we saw last week.We'll find out soon whether it was a player or coaching issue!

Thats the way DKearney has been coached - to come in off his wing. Trimble is lauded for 'coming in from his wing to find work'. Zebo (a natural winger) has got huge criticism for staying out on his wing and apparently not coming in to look for work (when its obvious the opposition's main threat is out on the wing).

When Kearney was needed to stay out on his wing because that was where the threat was coming from, he couldn't do it.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:41 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:The most important addition to the Irish team is our new defense coach,hopefully Schmidt has someone lined up so we don't ever again see the passive narrow defensive line we saw last week.We'll find out soon whether it was a player or coaching issue!

Thats the way DKearney has been coached - to come in off his wing. Trimble is lauded for 'coming in from his wing to find work'. Zebo (a natural winger) has got huge criticism for staying out on his wing and apparently not coming in to look for work (when its obvious the opposition's main threat is out on the wing).

When Kearney was needed to stay out on his wing because that was where the threat was coming from, he couldn't do it.

That's all very interesting,thanks for your input.

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Post by Notch Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:46 pm

It's not really that interesting, it conflates roles with defence with roles in attack. The only place thats relevant is off immediate turnover ball. And it's all designed to have a dig at Kearney, who had a poor game defensively but was left exposed by the men inside him failing to get across in time.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:50 pm

Notch wrote:It's not really that interesting, it conflates roles with defence with roles in attack. The only place thats relevant is off immediate turnover ball. And it's all designed to have a dig at Kearney, who had a poor game defensively but was left exposed by the men inside him failing to get across in time.

Yeah I had a post ready to point some of that out but I've been on here for long enough to know that it will only lead to 5 pages of interprovincial squabbling which is what he seems to spend his time trying to start.I have decided to respond to his posts with the level of reply they deserve,a basic acknowledgement of their existence and a sarcastic approval of their content seems about right to me.

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Post by Sin é Wed 21 Oct 2015, 4:30 pm

Notch wrote:It's not really that interesting, it conflates roles with defence with roles in attack. The only place thats relevant is off immediate turnover ball. And it's all designed to have a dig at Kearney, who had a poor game defensively but was left exposed by the men inside him failing to get across in time.

When you have potent wingers like the Argies had, you stay out on your wing. Its like when teams are playing Ireland, their fullback will stay back because they are expecting chips in behind their defensive line.

If its a dig at anyone, its a dig at people rating ruck resourcing as more important for wingers than actually having a bit of pace and being able to beat a man.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Wed 21 Oct 2015, 4:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:It's not really that interesting, it conflates roles with defence with roles in attack. The only place thats relevant is off immediate turnover ball. And it's all designed to have a dig at Kearney, who had a poor game defensively but was left exposed by the men inside him failing to get across in time.

When you have potent wingers like the Argies had, you stay out on your wing. Its like when teams are playing Ireland, their fullback will stay back because they are expecting chips in behind their defensive line.

If its a dig at anyone, its a dig at people rating ruck resourcing as more important for wingers than actually having a bit of pace and being able to beat a man.

Fantastic insight,please continue to share your wisdom.

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Post by ME-109 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 11:54 am

The reality is that our forwards got their collective asses handed to them (similar to the Italian game but the Pumas were more clinical) compared to the French game and once they were in behind us we defended the same way as we have all tournament, in the end we were caught for speed out wide by a team who had us sussed and had the players to execute the game plan unlike the Italians.

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Post by eirebilly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 12:51 pm

rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I would like to see JJ Hanrahan involved in the squad. Get him in early to give him the exposure so that he can learn as I feel he is Irelands biggest talent.

He's way down the pecking order at Saints so unless he can get game time he shouldn't be near the squad - looks like a bad move already.

As well as the guys in the RWC squad the usual names mentioned above - Trimble, Stander, Olding, McCloskey, Reid, Gilroy, Touhy, Foley, Luke McGrath, Marmion, Felix Jones and co would add a bit more depth and competition and fresh faces...

I am still fuming that Munster let him go. I do feel that he is a huge talent and time should be invested into getting such young players involved early in the setup to gain the experience, he is still only 23. Not sure if you have seen him play but here is a little bit of just how good he is.

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Post by rodders Thu 22 Oct 2015, 12:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:It's not really that interesting, it conflates roles with defence with roles in attack. The only place thats relevant is off immediate turnover ball. And it's all designed to have a dig at Kearney, who had a poor game defensively but was left exposed by the men inside him failing to get across in time.

When you have potent wingers like the Argies had, you stay out on your wing. Its like when teams are playing Ireland, their fullback will stay back because they are expecting chips in behind their defensive line.

If its a dig at anyone, its a dig at people rating ruck resourcing as more important for wingers than actually having a bit of pace and being able to beat a man.

What's the point of having pace and being able to beat defenders if you can't win quick ball at the ruck?

In the modern game it's not feasible to just rely on the back row and a few tight 5 forwards to secure the ball, this is Schmidt's philosophy and a Kiwi one generally - that the whole team should be total footballers.

If someone has a weakness, whether at the ruck, defense, work rate or under the high ball then they need to go and work on it to be considered, which seems reasonable enough.

BTW which of our defence beating wingers do you feel wasn't considered?
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Post by rodders Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:02 pm

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I would like to see JJ Hanrahan involved in the squad. Get him in early to give him the exposure so that he can learn as I feel he is Irelands biggest talent.

He's way down the pecking order at Saints so unless he can get game time he shouldn't be near the squad - looks like a bad move already.

As well as the guys in the RWC squad the usual names mentioned above - Trimble, Stander, Olding, McCloskey, Reid, Gilroy, Touhy, Foley, Luke McGrath, Marmion, Felix Jones and co would add a bit more depth and competition and fresh faces...

I am still fuming that Munster let him go. I do feel that he is a huge talent and time should be invested into getting such young players involved early in the setup to gain the experience, he is still only 23. Not sure if you have seen him play but here is a little bit of just how good he is.


I've seen plenty of him and given that the RWC has exposed our lack of depth at 10 I'd love to see him involved - but if he isn't getting picked for Saints then that is a bad move for him and a bad one for Ireland.

The fact that he was an unused sub the other day makes it seem like a bizarre move.
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Post by eirebilly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:07 pm

I said earlier that I wanted Schmidt to take more charge, get players like JJ back into Ireland and playing regular rugby. I want to see partnerships made (think BOD/DARCY or ROG/Stringer) so I would love to see him or Madigan move and play alongside Marmion who I believe is the heir apparent to Murray.
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 1:09 pm

Bizarre for him... not for Saints. Buy up your opposition's talent and bench them. Then beat the bejaysus out of them in Europe with your own talent.

Diving isn't the only football habit arriving at Rugby's doorstep Wink

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Post by the-goon Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:42 pm

So what team are we looking for in Feb?

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Moore/White/Furlong?
4. Toner/Ryan
5. Henderson
6. POM
7. SOB
8. Stander?? Heaslip

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Gilroy?/ Earls
12. McCloskey
13. Henshaw
14. Fitz / Trimble
15. Zebo

Guys that will struggle to make the next RWC cycle will need to be phased out slowly. These would be Ross, White, POC, Heaslip?, D Ryan?, Redden, Boss, Payne, Bowe, R Kearney, Trimble?, Cave. Hopefully we can keep JS for the entire cycle and allow him to manage the succession.

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Post by Notch Thu 22 Oct 2015, 2:58 pm

Depends on the objective goon; do we want to try and push on and win a Grand Slam in the next four years? Or is it all about trying to develop a new generation and a new squad for the 2019 Rugby World Cup?

I don't think guys like Mike Ross, Jared Payne and Rob Kearney are dispensable in the short term if its short term success we're after. We may well be aiming to replace them- even before this World Cup I've spoken about Henshaw eventually moving out and replacing/surpassing Payne- but I see them being important members of the team in the short term future.

I'd like to see a McCloskey-Henshaw partnership beginning to be formed now in terms of getting McCloskey into the squad, but it may be on the end of year tour that we start to see it on the pitch. It would be good to see McCloskey around the squad, 24th or 25th man in the Six Nations, maybe off the bench a few times. Maybe one start in the 6N to see how he goes.
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Post by Pete330v2 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:04 pm

Henshaw to Ulster please.

He and McCloskey can become the best centre unit we've had in Irish rugby history Wink

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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:31 pm

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I would like to see JJ Hanrahan involved in the squad. Get him in early to give him the exposure so that he can learn as I feel he is Irelands biggest talent.

He's way down the pecking order at Saints so unless he can get game time he shouldn't be near the squad - looks like a bad move already.

As well as the guys in the RWC squad the usual names mentioned above - Trimble, Stander, Olding, McCloskey, Reid, Gilroy, Touhy, Foley, Luke McGrath, Marmion, Felix Jones and co would add a bit more depth and competition and fresh faces...

I am still fuming that Munster let him go. I do feel that he is a huge talent and time should be invested into getting such young players involved early in the setup to gain the experience, he is still only 23. Not sure if you have seen him play but here is a little bit of just how good he is.


He wanted to go. He is on massive money over there. By the way he played for Northampton Reserves the other night (starting at 10) v. Cambridge University (who had Ian Nagle who is doing an MBA there) on their team. The Saints scored 11 tries (2 by JJ).
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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 3:51 pm

Sin................... he wanted to go to.........................what?..... what did he say?............................play. That's right. It wasn't about the money (allegedly) but because he wanted to play.

Maybe he'll still get into his groove and play a bigger part later this season... but he'll be disappointed if he doesn't.

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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 4:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:Sin................... he wanted to go to.........................what?..... what did he say?............................play.  That's right.  It wasn't about the money (allegedly) but because he wanted to play.

Maybe he'll still get into his groove and play a bigger part later this season... but he'll be disappointed if he doesn't.

He wanted to play at 10, Munster needed him at 12 and he is in a hurry.

That was the first game of the season and it was very tight. Worchester won it with a drop goal on the 80th minute. Not surprising that he didn't get gametime.

By the way, DOC played 80 mins for Worchester in their win over Northampton.
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Post by rodders Thu 22 Oct 2015, 4:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Sin................... he wanted to go to.........................what?..... what did he say?............................play.  That's right.  It wasn't about the money (allegedly) but because he wanted to play.

Maybe he'll still get into his groove and play a bigger part later this season... but he'll be disappointed if he doesn't.

He wanted to play at 10, Munster needed him at 12 and he is in a hurry.

That was the first game of the season and it was very tight. Worchester won it with a drop goal on the 80th minute. Not surprising that he didn't get gametime.

By the way, DOC played 80 mins for Worchester in their win over Northampton.

Maybe we should bring DOC into the training squad for the 6N - as long as he doesn't bully the opposition water boys that is...
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Post by rodders Thu 22 Oct 2015, 4:32 pm

eirebilly wrote:I said earlier that I wanted Schmidt to take more charge, get players like JJ back into Ireland and playing regular rugby. I want to see partnerships made (think BOD/DARCY or ROG/Stringer) so I would love to see him or Madigan move and play alongside Marmion who I believe is the heir apparent to Murray.

Yea but that's not Schmidt's job, it's Nucifera's and the coaches at the provinces.

Schmidt can only work with what he has and the reality is once you lose go past the first tier is pretty average in a lot of positions. The players just aren't there to run around top teams in the wider channels.

The key is getting slicker ball handling and awareness of space but this starts at under age rugby not in international training camps.
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Post by ME-109 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 5:03 pm

rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I said earlier that I wanted Schmidt to take more charge, get players like JJ back into Ireland and playing regular rugby. I want to see partnerships made (think BOD/DARCY or ROG/Stringer) so I would love to see him or Madigan move and play alongside Marmion who I believe is the heir apparent to Murray.

Yea but that's not Schmidt's job, it's Nucifera's and the coaches at the provinces.

Schmidt can only work with what he has and the reality is once you lose go past the first tier is pretty average in a lot of positions. The players just aren't there to run around top teams in the wider channels.

The key is getting slicker ball handling and awareness of space but this starts at under age rugby not in international training camps.

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

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Post by GoodinTightSpaces Thu 22 Oct 2015, 5:13 pm

ME-109 wrote:
rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I said earlier that I wanted Schmidt to take more charge, get players like JJ back into Ireland and playing regular rugby. I want to see partnerships made (think BOD/DARCY or ROG/Stringer) so I would love to see him or Madigan move and play alongside Marmion who I believe is the heir apparent to Murray.

Yea but that's not Schmidt's job, it's Nucifera's and the coaches at the provinces.

Schmidt can only work with what he has and the reality is once you lose go past the first tier is pretty average in a lot of positions. The players just aren't there to run around top teams in the wider channels.

The key is getting slicker ball handling and awareness of space but this starts at under age rugby not in international training camps.

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

no the problem with last coach was apart from a win against Aus he had 3 terrible years worth of results. saying that he was unlucky with injuries

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Post by ME-109 Thu 22 Oct 2015, 5:19 pm

I don't think I ever heard DK complain about injuries?

Maybe the goal posts are being changed a little for St Joe? The other comment on the previous coach was we didn't have a plan B, or that we didn't play running rugby and while not addressing these will lead to disaster?

Déjà vu anyone

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Thu 22 Oct 2015, 5:23 pm

ME-109 wrote:
rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I said earlier that I wanted Schmidt to take more charge, get players like JJ back into Ireland and playing regular rugby. I want to see partnerships made (think BOD/DARCY or ROG/Stringer) so I would love to see him or Madigan move and play alongside Marmion who I believe is the heir apparent to Murray.

Yea but that's not Schmidt's job, it's Nucifera's and the coaches at the provinces.

Schmidt can only work with what he has and the reality is once you lose go past the first tier is pretty average in a lot of positions. The players just aren't there to run around top teams in the wider channels.

The key is getting slicker ball handling and awareness of space but this starts at under age rugby not in international training camps.

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

The last coach oversaw a team that got worse each year he was in control.Apart from the occasional exceptional result it was a pretty steady decline.To put it into context getting knocked out in the RWC quarter final is the low point of Schmidts tenure so far,where did the same achivement rank in Kidneys time?

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Post by SecretFly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 5:26 pm

ME-109 wrote: I don't think I ever heard DK complain about injuries?

Did Declan ever complain about anything?

He left Sin to complain about the injuries......... Wink

But apart from that, the man was too 'nice' for his own good - Lancaster Mark1. "This is it. You'll have these things. You'll have these results. This is the results you get when you get the result we've just gotten. The lads just weren't given the luck. It's a game of percentages and margins and we were beaten by them feckin' numbers today."


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Post by eirebilly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 5:54 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
ME-109 wrote:]

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

The last coach oversaw a team that got worse each year he was in control.Apart from the occasional exceptional result it was a pretty steady decline.To put it into context getting knocked out in the RWC quarter final is the low point of Schmidts tenure so far,where did the same achivement rank in Kidneys time?

Lets look at this in perspective, DK had a very good start to his career as Ireland coach (6n GS), got to the 1/4 finals of a RWC beating Australia in the SH then went into decline because of a supposed 1 dimensional game plan and lack of attacking threat.

JS has had a great (2 6N titles no GS), got to a 1/4 final of a RWC only just beating Italy and beating a distinctly average French team, but also has a very 1 dimensional game plan and lacks attacking threat... Could it be that Ireland may be getting worse?

I ask you, what if Ireland do not do well in the 6N?
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Thu 22 Oct 2015, 6:31 pm

eirebilly wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
ME-109 wrote:]

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

The last coach oversaw a team that got worse each year he was in control.Apart from the occasional exceptional result it was a pretty steady decline.To put it into context getting knocked out in the RWC quarter final is the low point of Schmidts tenure so far,where did the same achivement rank in Kidneys time?

Lets look at this in perspective, DK had a very good start to his career as Ireland coach (6n GS), got to the 1/4 finals of a RWC beating Australia in the SH then went into decline because of a supposed 1 dimensional game plan and lack of attacking threat.

JS has had a great (2 6N titles no GS), got to a 1/4 final of a RWC only just beating Italy and beating a distinctly average French team, but also has a very 1 dimensional game plan and lacks attacking threat... Could it be that Ireland may be getting worse?

I ask you, what if Ireland do not do well in the 6N?

I have a very different perspective,1st DK had the luck to only suffer 2 injuries to his squad in 2009 while also having BoD at his peak playing rugby that should have won him World Player of the Year.People forget how RoG choked in the England match and Bod had to pull scores out of his arse to drag us over the line,while Wales were obviously only a metre or 2 short with a kick from stopping the GS.

Schmidt was a 3 point defeat and a 7 point defeat away from a GS but never had the luxury of a full squad in either year.

The decline for DK'S ireland set in immediately after 2009,the 2010 and 2011 6Nations were failures with only the win against England in 2011 standing out as a decent performance.

Now lets look at the WC where Ireland struggled past the USA before they met Australia and the Ozzies lost there 2 best forwards to injury before they played us and we beat them up front in a great win that nobody expected,then followed that up with another fantastic win v Italy.That was the most consistency DK managed to instill in the team post 2009 before we were well beaten in the quarters.

Schmidt had Ireland humming nicely in the WC and while we struggled past Italy we dispatched France convincingly before losing 3 of our pack and our outhalf and we were beaten out the gate.

From my perspective after 2009 a good performance was an aberration under Kidney,under Schmidt a bad performance is the aberration.If Ireland don't do well in the 6N then Schmidt will rightly come under pressure,but I ask you what if they do?

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Post by Marshes Thu 22 Oct 2015, 6:35 pm

eirebilly wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
ME-109 wrote:]

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

The last coach oversaw a team that got worse each year he was in control.Apart from the occasional exceptional result it was a pretty steady decline.To put it into context getting knocked out in the RWC quarter final is the low point of Schmidts tenure so far,where did the same achivement rank in Kidneys time?

Lets look at this in perspective, DK had a very good start to his career as Ireland coach (6n GS), got to the 1/4 finals of a RWC beating Australia in the SH then went into decline because of a supposed 1 dimensional game plan and lack of attacking threat.

JS has had a great (2 6N titles no GS), got to a 1/4 final of a RWC only just beating Italy and beating a distinctly average French team, but also has a very 1 dimensional game plan and lacks attacking threat... Could it be that Ireland may be getting worse?

I ask you, what if Ireland do not do well in the 6N?

Honestly if Ireland didn't win it but looked like they were moving towards a gameplan with a bit more variety, and consistency in defence, I would be happy. Everyone is expecting us to rebuild anyway, why not actually make that the primary concern.

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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 7:13 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
ME-109 wrote:]

Er wasn't that the alleged problem with the last coach. That he didn't improve the players? Wasn't that the reason for JS?

The last coach oversaw a team that got worse each year he was in control.Apart from the occasional exceptional result it was a pretty steady decline.To put it into context getting knocked out in the RWC quarter final is the low point of Schmidts tenure so far,where did the same achivement rank in Kidneys time?

Lets look at this in perspective, DK had a very good start to his career as Ireland coach (6n GS), got to the 1/4 finals of a RWC beating Australia in the SH then went into decline because of a supposed 1 dimensional game plan and lack of attacking threat.

JS has had a great (2 6N titles no GS), got to a 1/4 final of a RWC only just beating Italy and beating a distinctly average French team, but also has a very 1 dimensional game plan and lacks attacking threat... Could it be that Ireland may be getting worse?

I ask you, what if Ireland do not do well in the 6N?

I have a very different perspective,1st DK had the luck to only suffer 2 injuries to his squad in 2009 while also having BoD at his peak playing rugby that should have won him World Player of the Year.People forget how RoG choked in the England match and Bod had to pull scores out of his arse to drag us over the line,while Wales were obviously only a metre or 2 short with a kick from stopping the GS.

Schmidt was a 3 point defeat and a 7 point defeat away from a GS but never had the luxury of a full squad in either year.

The decline for DK'S ireland set in immediately after 2009,the 2010 and 2011 6Nations were failures with only the win against England in 2011 standing out as a decent performance.

Now lets look at the WC where Ireland struggled past the USA before they met Australia and the Ozzies lost there 2 best forwards to injury before they played us and we beat them up front in a great win that nobody expected,then followed that up with another fantastic win v Italy.That was the most consistency DK managed to instill in the team post 2009 before we were well beaten in the quarters.

Schmidt had Ireland humming nicely in the WC and while we struggled past Italy we dispatched France convincingly before losing 3 of our pack and our outhalf and we were beaten out the gate.

From my perspective after 2009 a good performance was an aberration under Kidney,under Schmidt a bad performance is the aberration.If Ireland don't do well in the 6N then Schmidt will rightly come under pressure,but I ask you what if they do?

Ferris said it last week on radio, himself and O'Brien thought they were in a world cup semi before the Welsh game. Kidney lost a couple of key players as well in the world cup - remember Jerry Flannery & David Wallace? And even without them (and an outhalf who couldn't kick snow off a rope) they beat Australia in the SH. Ireland were destroyed by Argentina last weekend. Our worst lost ever in a world cup.

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Post by Sin é Thu 22 Oct 2015, 7:16 pm

Interesting comments from Peter Stringer back in September about Ireland's centre.

When Brian O’Driscoll was finishing up I saw it as a natural progression for him [KE] to move into that role. They’re very similar players in the way that they run, and they’re able to beat defenders, and they both have that intelligence on the pitch.

I would have always known him as 13, he just fitted that mould in my eyes. For Ireland, he’s been for the most part a winger. I don’t think that’s going to change, but from my point of view, he can fill that 13 jersey very well, which we saw him do against Wales in Cardiff.

I think he’ll definitely start next week against Italy, but I’d like to see him as a 13.

Personally, watching Jared Payne in the centre in the last few weeks, he just looks too hesitant.

When I see him with the ball in hand, I just can’t help picturing him thinking what he should be doing next. When he takes the ball on and doesn’t see the space, I think he looks a bit confused.

He seems to be second guessing himself, and doesn’t seem to have the same flair and energy that someone like Keith can offer in those channels. That’s just my view from watching him in the last few weeks.
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Post by eirebilly Thu 22 Oct 2015, 7:18 pm

I truly want Ireland to progress and do believe that Schmidt still is the best for the job and i do wish for a good 6N.

It just appears to me that similarities in results between DK and JS in the opening stages of their tenures are high. Time will tell but it just seems like we are going through the same things. Maybe its not a coaching thing but the culture in which the Irish players approach the game?
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Post by Notch Thu 22 Oct 2015, 8:00 pm

It was certainly a disappointing result and performance against Argentina but to say its our worst ever World Cup defeat is way over the top. Have we forgotten our defeats to France and Argentina in 2007? Our quarter-final against France in 2003? Wales in 2011? Losing to Argentina in 1999, long before they were anywhere close to the excellent team they are today? I think it was a better performance than any of those matches...

I also find this 1-dimensional attacking game criticism to be strange based on the World Cup, as it was our defence that was ruthlessly punished and shredded in the quarter-final. It was our tactical kicking and chasing game which went completely AWOL. Our normal ability to put pressure on the breakdown and hold up ball carriers was simply blasted away by their intensity. It was a game lost because we did not do the things we normally do well under Schmidt. It was the absence of nitty-gritty, unglamorous stuff that gave them time and space- partly because we played poorly, partly because they played so well. We actually scored two very good tries against Argentina to drag ourselves back into the game. We've seen a lot more tries coming as a result of offloads out of contact once we do break the line in attack, like Earls against Italy and Murphy against Argentina. Certainly a lot to build on for us in terms of attack from this RWC, and I'm more confident in our attacking game now than I was after the Six Nations. My big concern is replacing Les Kiss as defensive coach given how badly we let ourselves down in that area against Argentina and Italy. My other concerns are that without Sexton our all-round game is hobbled so dramatically- Madigan simply isn't a test class 10 for me- and also we've lost an outstanding leader and Captain.

I'm not really too disheartened by the defeat. Disappointed of course, but still see the progress of the past few years. We're at the point were if we give five more performances like that the aberration looks like a trend but I don't really expect that to happen.
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