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Northen Hemisphere Super XV

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 21 Oct 2015, 10:31 am

Forget the B&I Cup, NH Super 15 is the way forward (apparently).

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/need-european-super-15-peter-10301901 wrote:Cardiff Blues chairman Peter Thomas says a Super 15 competition must be introduced in Europe if the northern hemisphere countries are to have any chance of winning future World Cups.

Thomas wants to see two super sides created in Wales - one in the west and one in the east - to take part in the new tournament, along with four teams from France and England, two from Ireland and Scotland and one from Italy.

Under his blueprint, the Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets and Dragons would continue to compete in the Pro12 , but with the cream of Welsh talent playing for one of the two new Super 15 sides.

Thomas’ revolutionary proposals come in the wake of the northern hemisphere failing to have a representative in the semi-finals of the World Cup for the first time in the tournament’s 28 year history.


He says it’s time for the powers-that-be in European rugby to wake up to the fact that something must be done to address the southern hemisphere dominance.

“The preparation we need to win a World Cup isn’t going to be provided if we stay as we are,” said the long-serving administrator.

“The fact that all four semi-finalists this weekend are from the southern hemisphere says it all.

“New Zealand put 60 points on France and look at the way Ireland lost to Argentina. We have never seen an Argentina team like that, never.

“How many back-door flip passes did you see from northern hemisphere sides during this World Cup? None.

“Look at the skill that Dan Carter produced against France and think about that pass from Duane Vermeulen which did for us. We don’t do it. The skill levels are not there.

“The time has arrived for the northern hemisphere to create a Super 15 competition. That is the way to go.

“It is the best way to prepare for international rugby. It’s been proven down south, when you look at the pace and skills on show in their Super 15. It’s the perfect stepping stone to Test rugby.”


Outlining his proposals, Thomas said: “We would need new two sides in Wales, one in the east and one in the west. I am talking about the creation of super teams for a Super 15.

“Just imagine it. Look at the side you could have in the east. You would have the likes of Taulupe Faletau, Tyler Morgan and Hallam Amos playing alongside Sam Warburton, Gareth Anscombe and Lloyd Williams.

“And what kind of team would you get out of the Ospreys and the Scarlets?

“We would have four English sides, four French, two Welsh, two Scots, two Irish and one Italian.

“In England, you could have four regional teams, such as London, Midlands and South West.

“In Ireland you could combine the best players from Munster and Connacht, as well as the best from Leinster and Ulster.


“You would have 14 games of Super Rugby and 13 international matches and there’s your season for the elite players.

“I am giving a wake-up call to the powers-that-be in northern hemisphere. If we want to win the next World Cup, they have got to think about introducing a Super 15. If we stay as we are, we will never do it.

“It’s about preparing players for international rugby and at the moment that isn’t happening.”

As part of Thomas’ plans, the four Welsh regional teams would continue to play in the existing league structure.

“You would have a new tournament, but all the other leagues would stay as they are, the Pro12, the French league, the English league,” he said.

“You would still run 38-40 man squads and we would still play in the Pro12.


“But the best of the players would go into the super teams and play week-in, week-out in the Super 15.

“And instead of pushing players down to get match practice in the Premiership, as happens now, they would have it in the Pro12.

“Warren Gatland already has 30 or 40 players in his squad. Add another 20 or so and you have enough for two Super 15 squads.

“Either the WRU can run the teams or they could offer franchises to the existing regional organisations.

“Look, we have had a brilliant World Cup and I think our Welsh boys have surpassed expectations, as have the Scots.

“But if we want to go to Japan and be there at the end we have got to prepare and our preparation isn’t right in terms of the current structure.


“What has happened at this World Cup has brought this into focus, but I have been thinking about it for a long time.

“From next year, Argentina’s international side will be playing week in week out in Super Rugby. How much better are they going to get again? They are bringing all their players home to play in it.

“You could do the same with the Italian players who are in England and France if we had our own Super 15. It would improve European rugby across the board.

“It’s time the northern hemisphere woke up and introduced a Super 15 competition. If we want to improve our skill levels and win a World Cup, it has to happen.”

Merging the Blues/Dragons, Scarlets/Ospreys, Leinster/Ulster, Munster/Connacht, Treviso/Zebre, leaving Edinburgh and Glasgow as they are and forcing through 4 'regions' in France and England. How could that go wrong? picard
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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:38 pm

I'm guessing the East Wales team would be based in Newport?

But no thanks. And hardly revolutionary, it's suggested on here every few years/months.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:48 pm

Definitely based in Newport, and not CAP.

It really worries me that someone who has seen the fall out of enforced mergers can come out with this tripe publically.
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Post by Guest Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:50 pm

This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

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Post by yappysnap Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:54 pm

Do it!

I'd certainly watch it

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 21 Oct 2015, 12:58 pm

Munchkin wrote:This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

I though he wanted a 16 team euro comp, where clubs entered?

Pies wants a regional based comp were teams are forced into merging
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Post by Notch Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:02 pm

Well, the French clubs won't have it and I doubt the English clubs will either. Which leaves us with an Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Italian league. Which already exists and is called the Pro12.

If Ireland was offered two teams in the actual Super Rugby I would bite their hand off. But France and England would have to be willing to massively restructure their entire systems for us to develop a NH equivalent.
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Post by Geordie Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:07 pm

“Look at the skill that Dan Carter produced against France and think about that pass from Duane Vermeulen which did for us. We don’t do it. The skill levels are not there.

Oh for gods sake im getting sick of this now.

Wales lost how many key players?? Despite that they were only just beaten by one bit of skill in a really close game.
Wales have players who can perform that skill.

All the Uk teams have the players...we've just had rough luck in many cases, bar England who changed all their tactics inexplicably!!!

No need for change. We are all producing players. Just get a bit more clever and ruthless.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:10 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

I though he wanted a 16 team euro comp, where clubs entered?

Pies wants a regional based comp were teams are forced into merging

You're right, Scarlets, but his vision was for an elite league, so it would essentially be the same thing eventually, draining talent from those not considered worthy of the elite tag.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

I though he wanted a 16 team euro comp, where clubs entered?

Pies wants a regional based comp were teams are forced into merging

You're right, Scarlets, but his vision was for an elite league, so it would essentially be the same thing eventually, draining talent from those not considered worthy of the elite tag.

Um no. McGafferty wanted an 16 team, 4 pool, competition above the leagues. So what we have now but four less sides.


Wray and Craig want some kind of elite league - probably with 2 from Ireland (Dublin and Belfast), 1 from Cardiff, 1 from Glasgow, 2 from England (Bath and Barnet), 2 from France (Paris and Toulon), 2 US francvhises (Boston and NY), and 2 SA franchises (CapeTown and Durban).*




* Probably truer than I hope to believe

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

I though he wanted a 16 team euro comp, where clubs entered?

Pies wants a regional based comp were teams are forced into merging

You're right, Scarlets, but his vision was for an elite league, so it would essentially be the same thing eventually, draining talent from those not considered worthy of the elite tag.

Um no. McGafferty wanted an 16 team, 4 pool, competition above the leagues. So what we have now but four less sides.


Wray and Craig want some kind of elite league - probably with 2 from Ireland (Dublin and Belfast), 1 from Cardiff, 1 from Glasgow, 2 from England (Bath and Barnet), 2 from France (Paris and Toulon), 2 US francvhises (Boston and NY), and 2 SA franchises (CapeTown and Durban).*




* Probably truer than I hope to believe


Yes, I've been mixing up the two. Too lazy to look it up myself.

Whatever about it, it isn't going to happen.




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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:29 pm

Notch wrote:Well, the French clubs won't have it and I doubt the English clubs will either. Which leaves us with an Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Italian league. Which already exists and is called the Pro12.

If Ireland was offered two teams in the actual Super Rugby I would bite their hand off. But France and England would have to be willing to massively restructure their entire systems for us to develop a NH equivalent.

Really. Even if your Super XV branch were based in Dublin, and it left Ulster with a considerably weakened side for in the Pro12?
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
“Look at the skill that Dan Carter produced against France and think about that pass from Duane Vermeulen which did for us. We don’t do it. The skill levels are not there.

Oh for gods sake im getting sick of this now.

Wales lost how many key players?? Despite that they were only just beaten by one bit of skill in a really close game.
Wales have players who can perform that skill.

All the Uk teams have the players...we've just had rough luck in many cases, bar England who changed all their tactics inexplicably!!!

No need for change. We are all producing players. Just get a bit more clever and ruthless.  

And on top of this, it wasn't the skill shown, it was Cuthbert out of position that caused the try.

Anyway....Scotzealfrica are going to win the WC in 2019.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:32 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

I though he wanted a 16 team euro comp, where clubs entered?

Pies wants a regional based comp were teams are forced into merging

You're right, Scarlets, but his vision was for an elite league, so it would essentially be the same thing eventually, draining talent from those not considered worthy of the elite tag.

Um no. McGafferty wanted an 16 team, 4 pool, competition above the leagues. So what we have now but four less sides.


Wray and Craig want some kind of elite league - probably with 2 from Ireland (Dublin and Belfast), 1 from Cardiff, 1 from Glasgow, 2 from England (Bath and Barnet), 2 from France (Paris and Toulon), 2 US francvhises (Boston and NY), and 2 SA franchises (CapeTown and Durban).*




* Probably truer than I hope to believe

So that would be

Rep. Ireland
N. Ireland
Wales international side
Scotland international side
2 French super-clubs
2 English super-clubs
2 weak US super-clubs
And 2 failed SA Super XV type sides

And no Italy?
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Post by Notch Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:41 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Notch wrote:Well, the French clubs won't have it and I doubt the English clubs will either. Which leaves us with an Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Italian league. Which already exists and is called the Pro12.

If Ireland was offered two teams in the actual Super Rugby I would bite their hand off. But France and England would have to be willing to massively restructure their entire systems for us to develop a NH equivalent.

Really.  Even if your Super XV branch were based in Dublin, and it left Ulster with a considerably weakened side for in the Pro12?

Yes. Country, then club. The entire point of Ulster Rugby is to deliver players for the national side.
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Post by Sin é Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:41 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:This has been done already. Wasn't this what McCafferty was promoting?

I though he wanted a 16 team euro comp, where clubs entered?

Pies wants a regional based comp were teams are forced into merging

You're right, Scarlets, but his vision was for an elite league, so it would essentially be the same thing eventually, draining talent from those not considered worthy of the elite tag.

Um no. McGafferty wanted an 16 team, 4 pool, competition above the leagues. So what we have now but four less sides.


Wray and Craig want some kind of elite league - probably with 2 from Ireland (Dublin and Belfast), 1 from Cardiff, 1 from Glasgow, 2 from England (Bath and Barnet), 2 from France (Paris and Toulon), 2 US francvhises (Boston and NY), and 2 SA franchises (CapeTown and Durban).*

* Probably truer than I hope to believe

He'd want 3 from Ireland - best travelling support in the world.
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:52 pm

Munster would be based in boston.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 21 Oct 2015, 1:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Munster would be based in boston.

Ah that would be ok though, if it benefits the national side.
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Post by SecretFly Wed 21 Oct 2015, 11:26 pm

The bit I'm surprised at is that Cardiff Blues chairman is interested in International and its requirements.

Good. That's a renewed interest that's a good beginning. Keep it up. It won't last.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 22 Oct 2015, 7:59 am

SecretFly wrote:The bit I'm surprised at is that Cardiff Blues chairman is interested in International and its requirements.

Good.  That's a renewed interest that's a good beginning.  Keep it up.  It won't last.

He want Kerdiff Dragons in the super xv playing at cap, wearing blue and black hoops.
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Post by TJ Thu 22 Oct 2015, 8:14 am

Its a load of nonsense. Its just another attempt at a power grab. I am sure we would let England put a couple of teams into the Pro 12 if they wanted. After all the original vision for the pro 12 was something similar to this but the english clubs refused to join in.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 22 Oct 2015, 9:30 am

TJ wrote:Its a load of nonsense.  Its just another attempt at a power grab.  I am sure we would let England put a couple of teams into the Pro 12 if they wanted.  After all the original vision for the pro 12 was something similar to this but the english clubs refused to join in.

A B&I League you mean???
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Post by Seagultaf Sat 24 Oct 2015, 12:37 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The bit I'm surprised at is that Cardiff Blues chairman is interested in International and its requirements.

Good.  That's a renewed interest that's a good beginning.  Keep it up.  It won't last.

He want Kerdiff Dragons in the super xv playing at cap, wearing blue and black hoops.

That's what I thought first time I read this in the Fail. Cardiff Blues were worst Welsh region last season finishing below the Dragons with Ospreys and Scarlets qualifying for the Euro cup. I guess Pies thinks this is a quick fix to making Kardiff to top side in Wales at the expense of the other (better) sides?

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Post by InjuredYetAgain Tue 27 Oct 2015, 9:03 pm

The proposal set out in the OP will not happen for a multitude of reasons e.g. TV contracts, central contracts, how many games would be in a season, where does the HC fit in (if at all) etc. However, if someone really wanted to be bold, though, include the Romanian national side especially if they have a pro-league starting and possibly also Georgia although a lot of their players play in France so it would be more of a Georgia A side

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Post by marty2086 Thu 29 Oct 2015, 12:59 pm

Noone ever said they were geniuses in charge of the regions, this idea highlights the blind spots some of those in charge have.

Hes laying the problems at the top end of the game when in fact its grassroots and cultural, if skill isn't being taught or coached at all levels then its not suddenly going to spring up if they are playing at 'elite levels'

The Argentines say playing the ABs more regularly has made them assess their approach and preparation and this has contributed to their development. There really is no point having an elite level if the approach is not translated to Test level

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Post by kingraf Thu 29 Oct 2015, 1:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
“Look at the skill that Dan Carter produced against France and think about that pass from Duane Vermeulen which did for us. We don’t do it. The skill levels are not there.

Oh for gods sake im getting sick of this now.

Wales lost how many key players?? Despite that they were only just beaten by one bit of skill in a really close game.
Wales have players who can perform that skill.

All the Uk teams have the players...we've just had rough luck in many cases, bar England who changed all their tactics inexplicably!!!

No need for change. We are all producing players. Just get a bit more clever and ruthless.  

Yeah, I suppose between losing Matfield, JdV, Frans Steyn not playing due to his brother's death, Jaque Fourie's final final retirement and losing Bismarck ten minutes in it was the ultimate Springbok XV vs Ospreys u-15 2nd XV
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