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England Squad for the 6N 2016

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 12:03

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

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Post by No 7&1/2 26.10.15 12:09

Clifford was excellent as was Fraser. Could they both break through?

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Post by No 7&1/2 26.10.15 12:15

In answer to that last point, the only thing that matters is this 6 nations. Trying to judge for 4 years time ain't possible. We didn't see that Easter would have still been at the top of his game or that Tuilagi wouldn't be available for large periods through injury. If they're good enough they're old enough but youth shouldn't be the overiding thing.

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Post by BamBam 26.10.15 12:20

I'll stick my neck out and do a squad of 30 ish

Prop - Marler, Mako, Cole, Brookes
Hooker - Hartley, George, Youngs
Lock - Launchbury, Lawes, Slater, Itoje, Kitchener
Flanker - Robshaw, Kvesic, Burgess, Ewers
8 - Bill and Ben
Scrum half - Youngs, Care, no idea
Fly half - Ford, Farrell, Cips
Centre - Joseph, Tuilagi (if their form and fitness allows), Slade, another 12
Wing - May, Nowell, Watson
FB - Brown (Watson covers)

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Post by cb 26.10.15 12:24

Without naming a full squad, surely Slade has to be tried at center and Ewers looked good versus Bath.  I would like to see someone like Slater/Kitchener/Attwood in the second row to give more ballast.  Squad could be picked more on form without throwing everyone out.

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Post by yappysnap 26.10.15 12:33

To echo the above let's focus on the 6Ns, if we build a winning team that jeeps winning then the RWC will look after itself.

My squad would be:
Props - Marler, Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Corbisero
Hooker - Hartley, Youngs, George
Locks - Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Parling
Backrow - Robshaw, Fraser, Ewers, Burgess, Haskell, Vunipola, Easter
scrum Half - Care, Youngs, Harrison
Fly Half - Ford, Cipriani
Centre - Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, Eastmond
Wings - Nowell, Yarde, Ashton
Fullback - Brown, Watson

Easy as that

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Post by yappysnap 26.10.15 12:33

I picked 33, is it 33 in the EPS?

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Post by Barney McGrew did it 26.10.15 12:35

On the whole the squad selection won’t be that surprising or revolutionary – we know who we’ve got.

Some interesting points will be how long JJ is out, will Manu ever get fit and show test form again, will we experiment with a different type of 7, will Sam stay in RU and show he’s developed into our best 6, who will be captain, will Cole go the same way as Corbs or regain his form and desire for test rugby, and who’ll provide the depth at lock beyond Launchbury & Lawes?

The really interesting question, which will actually shake up the above, is who’ll be the coaching team – but I guess that’s a separate thread.
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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 12:40

Biggest changes will be in the back row. In an initial wider squad I would include all of these.

6 Ewers and Burgess, Robshaw
7 Kvesic, Fraser, Clifford
8 Billy and Ben

Oh and I might give Attwood one more chance...and would definitely look at Kitchener aswell.

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Post by yappysnap 26.10.15 12:48

Look out for Wallace at 7 too, these last two games he's been far better then Kvesic imo

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 13:00

yappysnap wrote:Look out for Wallace at 7 too, these last two games he's been far better then Kvesic imo

I'm not seeing it Yappy. His technique at the breakdown is poor and he seems to bullied a bit. Nothing past a good AP player I think unfortunately.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 13:06

With JJ out, I guess we could see Slade/Manu?

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Post by lostinwales 26.10.15 13:25

Sgt_Pooly wrote:With JJ out, I guess we could see Slade/Manu?

All bets are off Manu until he strings some games together, and he might not get on the pitch until December or later, so may well not be back in time for the 6N, assuming he shows any of the form of old.

If JJ is still broke/ not recovered we'll be looking at the next (not broke) cab off the rank. Who that is will be anyone's guess at this point. We could have a slade/ Burrell center combo or there could even be a place for Daly at 13.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 13:57

Agree manu has to be forgotten about until he is fit and plays well for the Tigers.

If JJ is out, then Burrell looked good when he played at 13 for England - better than he did playing at 12!

Daly is another shout...with an added bonus of an additional kicker!

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Post by majesticimperialman 26.10.15 14:01

yappysnap wrote:To echo the above let's focus on the 6Ns, if we build a winning team that jeeps winning then the RWC will look after itself.

My squad would be:
Props - Marler, Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Corbisero
Hooker - Hartley, Youngs, George
Locks - Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Parling
Backrow - Robshaw, Fraser, Ewers, Burgess, Haskell, Vunipola, Easter
scrum Half - Care, Youngs, Harrison
Fly Half - Ford, Cipriani
Centre - Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, Eastmond
Wings - Nowell, Yarde, Ashton
Fullback - Brown, Watson

Easy as that

No Tom Wood, Ben Foden? I would of thought that Wood (especialy) would of been in the team a head of Easter. And Foden if he is back and on form backup to mike Brown at full back.

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Post by George Carlin 26.10.15 14:04

Matt Kvesic has been talked up for so long now. He's 23 - what is he being kept back for? If Armitage is resolutely out of the picture, what is to be lost by giving a genuine openside a shot? I am keen to see how good he really is.  

I have read claims that he is too small for some reason - if his official stats are correct (6'2" and 17 stones) then that is a tepid pile of cowpat, I'm afraid.
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Post by No 7&1/2 26.10.15 14:17

It's going to be either him or Fraser starting at 7 George I would have throught. Both very good players but Fraser if he can stay fit is slightly better I think. He's definitely not too small.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 14:18

Ah I certainly don't think Kvesic is that Carlin...6' and 16 maybe? Probably lighter.

I just don't think Lancaster was confident in them...so picked the players he wanted and stuck with them.

I think this WC has shown again that you need a few players in there that are skilled in that area.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 14:20

Lets hope that Burgess can really learn the lineout. Then he will be the 6 England fans crave.
Or Ewers can improve slightly in that area.

A big unit at 6 gives you so much that i just think Wood doesn't.

7.5 Fraser has certainly started the season on fire hasn't he. But I still rate Kvesic.

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Post by No 7&1/2 26.10.15 14:23

There's some seriously good talent coming through. Need to identify them and utilise them correctly though. Easier said than done.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 14:24

Absolutely 7.5

For me...we need to identify how we want to play then pick the players accordingly.

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Post by George Carlin 26.10.15 14:45

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah I certainly don't think Kvesic is that Carlin...6' and 16 maybe? Probably lighter.

I just don't think Lancaster was confident in them...so picked the players he wanted and stuck with them.

I think this WC has shown again that you need a few players in there that are skilled in that area.
Michael Hooper and John Hardie are 'only' 6' and not much over 16 stones, but both are superb opensides.

Hardie upped the Scotland loose forward threat practically overnight. He hits much harder than someone of his weight.
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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 14:52

Ah im a big fan of Kvesic. I didn't mean because hes lighter hes a worse player.

I like how he plays. He shows a lot of intelligence around the breakdown. And is an additional carrier.

But as 7.5 has aluded to ...Fraser is a genuine prospect aswell. Hes had an awful bad time with injuries which apparently they have really worked to fix this summer. And in two games so far has looked great.

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Post by yappysnap 26.10.15 14:54

For me Wood and Robshaw are a double positive, take one or the other but not both.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 15:01

I agree Yappy...possibly Wood if they need a genuine lineout option...but not playing both.

As I said though...hopefully Ewer and Burgess can really nail the lineout and then we'll have a genuine destructive 6.

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Post by yappysnap 26.10.15 15:18

Any one think Tom Croft will ever get another England cap?

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Post by LondonTiger 26.10.15 15:23

yappysnap wrote:Any one think Tom Croft will ever get another England cap?

Probably not, bUt I thought he looked really busy yesterday against your boys.


PS, did I see you selecting Sam Harrison?

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 15:23

Personally no I don't Yappy. If he does then we need to get some serious ballast in the lock area to make up for it.

I'd put Croft in the same spot as Corbisieru who I also don't think will make it back.

Dan Cole needs a seriously good rest also and to put on a few KG's I think.

How is Sinkler going with Quins?

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Post by majesticimperialman 26.10.15 15:24

yappysnap wrote:Any one think Tom Croft will ever get another England cap?


NO. I think he is too much on an injury risk.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 15:27

Would I be right in saying most in general are happy to see us playing a wider game...just maybe have a bit more muscle in the pack and be far more savy at the breakdown?

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Post by king_carlos 26.10.15 15:30

Prop - Marler, Mako, Davey Wilson, Cole + one of Brookes or Thomas
Hooker - George, Hartley, Youngs
Second row - Launchbury, Lawes, Slater + one of Kitchener, Symons or Attwood
Flanker - Robshaw, Kvesic, Itoje, Ewers
Number 8 - Morgan, Billy V
Scrum half - Youngs, Care + one of Simpson or Robson
Fly half - Ford, Slade, Farrell
Centre - Joseph, Daly, Burrell
Wing - Watson, May, Nowell, Wade
Full back - Brown, Pennell

At prop I don't rate Brookes too highly just yet as his scrummaging often falls apart after 20 minutes. We desperately need at least one of Davey or Cole to find fitness and form in time for the 6 Nations.

From our locks I want more bulk and brawn in the boiler room. Hence Slater is there and then I'd like one of Kitchener, Symons and Attwood in the squad as a bigger option who offers a line-out target. I know Attwood didn't really bring his carrying to the International game but the scrum looked much steadier with him there. Something that our RWC squad demonstrated the importance of very nicely.

Elsewhere:

- I've gone for Kvesic as the much needed option at 7 but I rate Fraser highly as well if he can stay fit - also watch our for Brendan O'Connor jetting into the Jeff from Super Rugby.

- I want the option of a bigger more dynamic blind-side. As such I'd like Itoje and/or Ewers in the squad

- At scrum half, I really hope that Robson and Simpson can push each other to improve their consistency at Wasps then push into the EPS.

- If we want to play a more attacking game we need another 13 in the squad who offers an outside break if Jospeh gets injured. Daly is the natural choice there - plus he offers a siege gun of a boot! I hope Lowe can also stay fit and put pressure on both for the 13 shirt.

- Pennell is a fantastic player and a perfect challenger to role Brown plays for this England side.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 15:37

I thought Sinkler looked excellent when he came on yesterday, he's certainly worth a Saxons spot. Realistically in positions I'd be looking at:

1. Marler, Waller, Auterac
2. George, Hartley, Haywood
3. Cole, Wilson, Thomas
Lock. Launchbury, Slater, Kitchener, Symons
6. Burgess, Ewers
7. Fraser, Armitage (drop the foreign rule)
8. Morgan, Vuinipola (Hughes in the summer)

9. Youngs, Robson, Care
10. Ford, Farrell
Centre. Devoto, Slade, JJ, Tuilagi
Back 3. Brown, May, Nowell, Watson
Utility. Daly

Forgot to add, I'd have exceptional youngsters training with the squad. Itoje, Clifford for now and see who else excels before the 6N.


Last edited by Sgt_Pooly on 26.10.15 15:48; edited 1 time in total

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Post by bluestonevedder 26.10.15 15:37

I think both Fraser and Kvesic are the prototypical size for an international openside. I'd love to see either of them start in an England shirt.

Hooper and Pocock are easily the shortest forwards on the pitch when they play, but they use their strength and pace to devastating effect. Both are under 6' - I think Hooper is the taller at 5'11, but Pocock is certainly the heavier.

Interestingly though, Pocock's wikipedia page and official profile have both very suddenly upped his height to a staggering 6'2! There's no way!

Anyway.

Fraser if he can stay fit is my preferred 7. Combined with a natural blindside like Robshaw, Ewers, Haskell, or Wood and Morgan or Vunipola at 8, England suddenly have a balanced backrow.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 15:39

I echo your thoughts on Brookes KC.

Even as a Falcons fan he's had about 5 games in 2 seasons where he's impressed from the start. He's just that good, I'd really worry if he had to start.

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Post by No 7&1/2 26.10.15 15:39

Quite surprised Mullans hasn't been mentioned more. Always impresses me. Still not seen this Symons guy play.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 15:42

Mullan will be in the EPS I have no doubt. Id have him over Corbs.

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Post by majesticimperialman 26.10.15 15:43

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mullan will be in the EPS I have no doubt. Id have him over Corbs.


How is Corbs fitness coming on? is it likely he will be trying for a spot in the 6ns team/squad?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 15:46

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mullan will be in the EPS I have no doubt. Id have him over Corbs.

Agree, don't think Corbs will make it. He was less than impressive last season and hasn't impressed under the laws (in about the 5 games he's played). I'd plump with Waller/Mullen and bring Auterac in to work in his scrummaging, the lad could be very special.

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Post by little_badger 26.10.15 15:47

I am looking at it slightly differently and that is where are we good and where are we lacking. The bits in between are probably ok.

Good:
10 - Ford, Cips, Farrell - In that order, yes controversial but lets use the potentially incredible backline.
Wing/Fullback - Watson, Nowell, Brown - great May pretty good, lots of talent.
Hooker - Hartley, George, Youngs - like to see George get a start
13 - JJ and after that Daly please, Slade also can cover

Lacking:
Backrow: One of Kvesic or Fraser, whoever is in the best form needs to be in the squad and get some game time. I'd like to see Clifford in the wider squad with Ewers.
12: Slade is an option but who else?

I don't think we should dump all the players but I think the following are probably finished, either via a poor world cup, injury or who's younger replacements are better:

Barritt, Wilson, Haskell

Also I don't care how big anyone is, just let's find the best players and try to ignore the size thing for a bit.

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Post by screamingaddabs 26.10.15 15:53

little_badger wrote:I am looking at it slightly differently and that is where are we good and where are we lacking. The bits in between are probably ok.

Good:
10 - Ford, Cips, Farrell - In that order, yes controversial but lets use the potentially incredible backline.
Wing/Fullback - Watson, Nowell, Brown - great May pretty good, lots of talent.
Hooker - Hartley, George, Youngs - like to see George get a start
13 - JJ and after that Daly please, Slade also can cover

Lacking:
Backrow: One of Kvesic or Fraser, whoever is in the best form needs to be in the squad and get some game time. I'd like to see Clifford in the wider squad with Ewers.
12: Slade is an option but who else?

I don't think we should dump all the players but I think the following are probably finished, either via a poor world cup, injury or who's younger replacements are better:

Barritt, Wilson, Haskell

Also I don't care how big anyone is, just let's find the best players and try to ignore the size thing for a bit.

I disagree about just picking the best 15 or 23 players. We need a game plan, and then we need to pick players who can play it. For me it means big beefy tight five, mobile fit and aggressive back row, and the fastest and silkiest backs around. Even if you are a decent player, if you don't fit the plan then unlucky. The best players will be able to fit pretty much any plan, or you build a plan around that type of player in that position.

Of course the coach (or anyone else) may choose different criteria to me but the idea is the same.
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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 15:56

[quote="screamingaddabs"]  We need a game plan, and then we need to pick players who can play it.  For me it means big beefy tight five, mobile fit and aggressive back row, and the fastest and silkiest backs around.  quote]

Amen...

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Post by king_carlos 26.10.15 15:57

Mullan will depend on the balance of the props in the EPS I expect. There is usually space for 5 which means you end up with two from one side of the scrum and three from the other.

Given that Cole and Davey Wilson have been struggling for form and fitness I'd prefer a third TH if both make the squad. If either are injured I'd again want the extra TH as I don't trust Brookes to start and others are untested.

Mullan is a player that I'd now take over Corbs any day of the week and have starting for the Saxons however. In fact I'd probably also take Alex Waller and Auterac for the Saxons over Corbs now.

Sgt - I agree that he hasn't been consistent at Prem level let alone International. It is a shame because I'm not sure how to amend the issue. Given his performance drops off after 20 minutes it would appear a fitness problem - that said though Deano and co got him into great shape when he returned to the Falcons. Perhaps he needs to string a long series of matches together for Saint where he plays 60 minutes plus to really improve his match fitness.

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Post by little_badger 26.10.15 15:59

screamingaddabs wrote:
little_badger wrote:I am looking at it slightly differently and that is where are we good and where are we lacking. The bits in between are probably ok.

Good:
10 - Ford, Cips, Farrell - In that order, yes controversial but lets use the potentially incredible backline.
Wing/Fullback - Watson, Nowell, Brown - great May pretty good, lots of talent.
Hooker - Hartley, George, Youngs - like to see George get a start
13 - JJ and after that Daly please, Slade also can cover

Lacking:
Backrow: One of Kvesic or Fraser, whoever is in the best form needs to be in the squad and get some game time. I'd like to see Clifford in the wider squad with Ewers.
12: Slade is an option but who else?

I don't think we should dump all the players but I think the following are probably finished, either via a poor world cup, injury or who's younger replacements are better:

Barritt, Wilson, Haskell

Also I don't care how big anyone is, just let's find the best players and try to ignore the size thing for a bit.

I disagree about just picking the best 15 or 23 players.  We need a game plan, and then we need to pick players who can play it.  For me it means big beefy tight five, mobile fit and aggressive back row, and the fastest and silkiest backs around.  Even if you are a decent player, if you don't fit the plan then unlucky.  The best players will be able to fit pretty much any plan, or you build a plan around that type of player in that position.

Of course the coach (or anyone else) may choose different criteria to me but the idea is the same.

If it came across as pick the best 15 or 23 that's not what I meant. I agree with that gameplan actually, I want to see us have a good set piece, scrum, lineout, maul underpinned by a good tight 5 with a balanced backrow, poacher & linkman, tackler/hard yards, ball carrier/offloader.

I think for too long we have tried to shoe horn players into positions with no balance. Case in point, it's either Robshaw or Wood not both.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 16:01

Do we have any real destructive props...ala Julian White?

Or are they all "mobile" props we have?

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Post by little_badger 26.10.15 16:16

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we have any real destructive props...ala Julian White?

Or are they all "mobile" props we have?

Does anyone have destructive props any more or just better technique from the whole pack? Oh the joy of watching Japan hook the ball........ Very Happy

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 16:16

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we have any real destructive props...ala Julian White?

Or are they all "mobile" props we have?

I don't think there's many in world rugby right now GF, possibly Herrera/Slimani at TH.

Auterac could be that option at LH given a bit of work. Waller can be that prop but I think he struggled with Brookes at the weekend, he needs a solid TH so he can work his guy.

To be honest, I'd ditch Brookes as he's not a starting option and Vuinopla is a poor scrummager.

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 16:33

To be honest I think the front row will benefit by having some big locks giving them ballast.

Parlng and Lawes a not big scrumagers.

Replace them with Launchbury and Attwood, or Launchbury and Kitchener or Slater...then suddenly the power comes through and the front rowers have more chance.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly 26.10.15 16:37

And a hooker who's not 5ft....

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Post by GeordieFalcon 26.10.15 16:43

And that yes.... Wink

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Post by little_badger 26.10.15 17:03

George captained Sarries on Friday night did ok, he's not 5ft.

Youngs was MOTM against Quins, but I get nervous when he plays for England. I know he's a lion and everything but I just don't think he's solid enough in all the areas to be a starting hooker for an international side.

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