England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

Sky also reporting that Slatter likely to miss the first half of the 6Ns at least, so they think he will miss out on EPS as a result.

I think you've got to go Launchbury and Kruis as certs but then who? Itoje and Kitchener would be my picks but what about Parling? He's still in the EPS.

Attwood seems OK in the set piece but if you really watch him play you will see that in the past he has taken himself out of the game in various ways. He becomes ineffective and for such a big bloke that is a major loss to the side.

Slater out for 6-8 weeks. Well that's the last time I voice my estimate of someones injury layoff.

With Slater and Attwood out that could very well re-open the door to Lawes, or newly open the door to Kitchener if Jones was looking at continuity.

4.Launchbury, Kitchener
5.Kruis, Lawes

Lots of line-out ability with Kruis, Kitch and Lawes. We are lack that brute in the tight that we have been looking for though. Launchbury, Kruis and Kitchener would all be upgrades on Lawes and Parling in the scrum, maul defence and carrying in traffic.

They are also all better defenders around the fringes - Lawes is great at targeting the first receiver and guys running short lines of him but less so at stopping a front row trying to crash over the gain line around the ruck.

I can't really see Parling making the squad currently. Jones has voiced a desire to rebuild the England sides traditional strength in scrums and mauls. As such I think he will want more weight in the second row. If he does want a lighter-weight option then Lawes will be higher up the list.

I think Itoje definitely comes in to the picture now with both Slater AND Attwood out.

Launchbury
Kruis
Kitchener
Itoje

Lacks a wee bit of real beef in the tight...but 4 good options.

And obviously there is Lawes as well.

Has that Symmons at London Irish done anything since his switch from NZ? What about Elliot Stooke...has he been playing?

Dom Barrow isn't ready yet.

Something about the idea of Launchbury and Kruis together worries me.

And everyone seems to be discounting Lawes too, I think it's s little silly as they'd be idiots to drop him.

Launchbury
Kruis
Lawes
Kitchener

Would be the 4 locks I'd expect in the EPS (if it's 4)

Then there's always Parling...

As a bit of fun I was thinking about our biggest pack (that'd still be realistic)

Vunipola, George, Brookes
Attwood, Slater
Itoje, Ewers, Vunipola

yappysnap wrote:As a bit of fun I was thinking about our biggest pack (that'd still be realistic)

Vunipola, George, Brookes
Attwood, Slater
Itoje, Ewers, Vunipola

There's not much in it and listed height/weight are usually a load of boll... but Kitchener is actually listed as an even heavier than Attwood.

That's because Kitchener is a big guy. For a lineout expert he's over 19st...

But can he use that weight?

Id say yes he can.

yappysnap wrote:Something about the idea of Launchbury and Kruis together worries me.

And everyone seems to be discounting Lawes too, I think it's s little silly as they'd be idiots to drop him.

Launchbury
Kruis
Lawes
Kitchener

Would be the 4 locks I'd expect in the EPS (if it's 4)

I think Launchbury and Itoje are nailed on, and Kruis is too after his recent performances (Itoje and Kruis were in the engine room of a pack that completely destroyed Leicester, Kitchener and all). With Lawes showing some signs of form I now reckon reckon he'll be the fourth lock.

Jones must recognise Itoke's amazing potential, the fact he's already performing to a very high standard, and the fact he clearly has the mental attributes (he must be favouriate to Captain the side in 2019) and wonderful basics (here is a prop with true southern hemisphere style hands) as well as the strength and athletic ability needed for the role. Why on earth would he leave him out of his first squad?

My matchday FHs would be Farrell and Cipriani. I think Cips is playing well, has an all-court game, has clearly improved his defence and seems to have grown into an on-field leader. With Ford in such poor form this must be his chance.

Centres? The 6 million year old question

DaveM wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Something about the idea of Launchbury and Kruis together worries me.

And everyone seems to be discounting Lawes too, I think it's s little silly as they'd be idiots to drop him.

Launchbury
Kruis
Lawes
Kitchener

Would be the 4 locks I'd expect in the EPS (if it's 4)

I think Launchbury and Itoje are nailed on, and Kruis is too after his recent performances (Itoje and Kruis were in the engine room of a pack that completely destroyed Leicester, Kitchener and all). With Lawes showing some signs of form I now reckon reckon he'll be the fourth lock.

Jones must recognise Itoke's amazing potential, the fact he's already performing to a very high standard, and the fact he clearly has the mental attributes (he must be favouriate to Captain the side in 2019) and wonderful basics (here is a prop with true southern hemisphere style hands) as well as the strength and athletic ability needed for the role. Why on earth would he leave him out of his first squad?

Somebody else has Itoje love

I'd question most of that to be honest. Is he performing to a high standard? I think he's been on the most pretty average to good this season. He was outplayed by Robinson against Falcons and has been in the shadow of Kruis so far this season. Strength and ability for what role exactly? Lock or 6? I'm a bit lost with the Southern hemisphere prop comment???

Another week to find out, it's taking forever. All signs seem to point towards Saracens players packing out the side, hopefully with some added adventure.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another week to find out, it's taking forever. All signs seem to point towards Saracens players packing out the side, hopefully with some added adventure.

That could be the perfect formula I guess.

Sarries defence/work ethic coupled with some attacking flair. Imagine a Sarries team with a bit more spark, they'd be unstoppable in the NH.

Vunipola, George, Someone else
Itoje, Kruis
Someone else, Fraser
Vunipola
Wigglesworth, Farrell
Someone else,Barritt, Someone else , Ashton,
Goode.

A part of me shudders slightly at that but could work for Jones like Gatland and I want to say Ospreys (?) players in his first tournament. Think that pack may be beat up slightly at international level though.

We'd certainly need some additions, especially in the backline but the core of the pack and ethos is certainly something to build on.

In an ideal world that Saracens core of a team with Cole, Robshaw, Wade and Tuilagi.

Ideal world as in injury free selections, not because choosing 12 Saracens players would be an ideal world to me!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Vunipola, George, Someone else
Itoje, Kruis
Someone else, Fraser
Vunipola
Wigglesworth, Farrell
Someone else,Barritt, Someone else , Ashton,
Goode.

A part of me shudders slightly at that but could work for Jones like Gatland and I want to say Ospreys (?) players in his first tournament. Think that pack may be beat up slightly at international level though.

I'd compromise on something like

Vunipola, George, Cole
Launchbury, Kruis
Robshaw, Kvesic, Vunipola
Youngs, Farrell
NOT BARRITT (but can't see it), JJ
Nowell, NOT GOODE (Brown), Watson

I think Jones will be cut some leeway if he experiments a bit at first. (Coaches seem to find it very hard to make major changes after the 1st year or so, so this is probably a good thing).  Thereafter many of the last two or three England coaches have painted themselves in a corner and not managed to get out.

Just a thought about Itoje, good players can look very good in a very good team, and he might need a bit more time and experience.  Also a question of position.

On Barritt, he was fairly poor in the WC (along with many other English players) but there were mitigating circumstances: I think he was never fit and had not played much proper rugby, and was playing out of position and had a bit of a rookie inside him which might have been a distraction (and having not played together).

However, I still think he just does not do enough for me ball in hand.  I would play as a sort of last resort but look at options such as Hill first.

The centre conundrum is a matter of balance. My feeling is that there's room - and probably a need - for a defensive lynchpin like Barritt as long as you have enough creativity elsewhere.

Youngs - Ford - Burrell - Joseph had a nice balance of control (Youngs, Barritt) and creativity (Ford, Joseph).

Youngs - Ford - Barritt - Slade (which is what I expected to see when Joseph was injured) could have worked too, or Care - Farrell - Barritt - Slade, or even Youngs - Ford - Burgess - Slade.

In the Barbarians game we had Dickson - Cipriani - Slade - Daly and it worked superbly.

Contrast that with Youngs - Farrell - Burgess - Barritt: plenty of direct running but only Youngs really offers the potential for an unexpected break.

I'd be quite happy with Barritt at 12 as long as there are two more creative players around him, at least until one of the many promising tyro centres is ready to step up to 12. If I were in Eddie's shoes, I'd be looking to take a range of centre options on tour and try out various combinations.

1 Marler
2 George
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Kruis / Kitchener
6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic
8 Billy V / Ben Morgan (has played better recently)

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Hill
13 JJ / Daly
14 Watson
15 Brown

GF I might have gone with Vunipola starting at LH with Marler on the bench.

Then Marler, Hartley, Thomas, Kruis (thus Kitchener starting), and Morgan (thus Vunipola starting) on the bench.  With Youngs/Farrell and Daly (thus JJ starting) representing the backs.

Pity Simpson not in there somewhere.

Also of course Brookes, Slade and maybe Slater might have featured if not injured.

Is this about what people are expecting from Eddie for his first squad then?

1.Marler, Mako, Mullan/Waller
2.George, Hartley, Youngs
3.Cole, Thomas
4.Launchbury, Itoje/Kitchener
5.Kruis, Kitchener/Lawes
6.Robshaw, Ewers/Clifford/Haskell/Itoje
7.Kvesic, Fraser
8.Vunipola, Morgan

9.Youngs, Care, Simpson/Wigglesworth/Chudley?
10.Farrell, Ford

11.Nowell, Ashton
12.Barritt, Hill/Burrell
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Roko
15.Brown, Goode

The backs feel like they are fairly set when you think that Jones will want continuity where he can.

One possibility that hasn't been discussed is only taking 3 wingers in the EPS and adding a third fly half to make room for Cipriani? I'd prefer 4 wingers personally but it is a possibility.

In the forwards the big one is the second row. Kruis and Launchbury must be nailed on. After that it's seems to be 2 from 3 between Lawes, Itoje and Kitch.

The second blindside isn't as vital as the lock choices but there is a good chance they could be on the bench. Having both Billy and Morgs in the 23 is great for go forward but leaves us with little flexibility. I don't want the premeditated, scripted use of subs we saw from Bomber. I'd prefer a flanker with a more rounded skill set covering from the bench. Ewers would be a powerful option, Clifford an exciting and versatile one, whilst Haskell is once again in good form and covers the back row.

Your missing a 3rd TH Carlos

And I wouldn't have a problem with Billy V covering 6 if required. You could also have Itoje on the bench covering 4/6

But I like Kitchener.

Lots of good problems for Eddie to work on...which is a nice change.

I'm also a big fan of Ewers. I really like the physicality he brings. And he covers 6/8...athough his injury means he probably wont be selected.

The EPS is 33 man. As set up there it is 33 so getting a third TH as well as LH means losing someone elsewhere. I guess you could give up the 4th winger for 3rd TH but that would leave a 14-19 split between forwards and backs which feels like a big difference.

You could of course have 3 THs and 2 LHs. If Brookes were fit or Wilson on form I'd edge towards that as I think TH is more up for debate as a position in terms of who our best are at the moment. However with those 2 injured I think Mullan is more deserving of an EPS place than any other tight heads.

I think you must have 3 ths it's crucial.

I'd lose one of the backs... Plenty can double,up like wing and full backs etc.

Or even locks who can cover 6 etc.

I see itoje is December player of the month.

Does that seal his spot in the squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think you must have 3 ths it's crucial.  

I'd lose one of the backs... Plenty can double,up like wing and full backs etc.

Or even locks who can cover 6 etc.

Personally I think the EPS should be expanded to 34 to allow 3 LHs and THs. Now that it's compulsory to have 2 props on the bench only having 5 props means you are 1 injury away from someone not in the squad being in the 23. Of course an extra prop is called up to train with the squad anyway so I don't really see the difference to be honest.

The world cup squads were increased from 30 to 31 to allow for it.

As for Itoje, I think he's still competing with Kitch and Lawes for 2 spots. Who gets the nod may depend on what Jones is looking for. Work rate or more power? Continuity or fresh talent? If he wants more bulk then Kitch will be in with a good shout. Athleticism or continuity will help Lawes a lot.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see itoje is December player of the month.

Does that seal his spot in the squad.

The hype around this guy is unbelievable. Was he even the best player at Saracens in December?

I said that elsewhere Sgt...I don't think he was close to Kruis's form, and as ive mentioned several times our Sean Robinson outplayed him when they came to our patch.

He has potential, but im not sure im seeing the performances that I keep hearing about.

Who votes for that? I'd have to concur he's been good but he hasn't exactly been bossing games.

Dont the England selectors quite often include injured players in the EPS?
Gives them a bit more flex in bringing in more players as injury cover.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who votes for that? I'd have to concur he's been good but he hasn't exactly been bossing games.

Fan's vote, Nick Mullins (BT Sport), Alastair Eykyn (BT Sport), Mick Cleary (The Daily Telegraph), Steve James (The Sunday Telegraph), Sarah Mockford (Rugby World), Jill Douglas (ITV Sport), Chris Jones (BBC 5 Live), David Rogers (Getty Images) and Ben Coles (Planet Rugby).

May out for the remainder of the season following surgery on his knee.

Hopefully the long rest will mean he's not in danger of being rushed back and that he can start next season fully-fresh. He's developed into a cracking player since finding his confidence on the international scene, and I hope he doesn't fall off the radar during his time on the sidelines.

May out long term too!

The matchday squad is likely to pick itself based on the last man standing.

At least the back 3 are settled.

11 Nowell
14 Watson
15 Brown

Yarde, Ashton and Rocko as backups

That was settled unit under SL, we've no idea who Jones fancies.

If he wants a tracking/finisher then Ashton has a big chance. If he wants his wingers on the wings then Yarde and Roko have a good chance.

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who votes for that? I'd have to concur he's been good but he hasn't exactly been bossing games.

Fan's vote, Nick Mullins (BT Sport), Alastair Eykyn (BT Sport), Mick Cleary (The Daily Telegraph), Steve James (The Sunday Telegraph), Sarah Mockford (Rugby World), Jill Douglas (ITV Sport), Chris Jones (BBC 5 Live), David Rogers (Getty Images) and Ben Coles (Planet Rugby).

Ta. You'd imagine it was quite a split vote then.

What is the general mood within the English supporters camp?

Confident? Expectant? Angry and determined to banish the memories of a poor World Cup?

As a Scotland fan our opener against you guys is vital for us to see us carry on the momentum we generated in the World Cup but the England side we will face will be totally different from the one that ended the RWC with a whimper.

What's your feelings on the upcoming 6N and in particular your opener against us at Murrayfield.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who votes for that? I'd have to concur he's been good but he hasn't exactly been bossing games.

Fan's vote, Nick Mullins (BT Sport), Alastair Eykyn (BT Sport), Mick Cleary (The Daily Telegraph), Steve James (The Sunday Telegraph), Sarah Mockford (Rugby World), Jill Douglas (ITV Sport), Chris Jones (BBC 5 Live), David Rogers (Getty Images) and Ben Coles (Planet Rugby).

Ta. You'd imagine it was quite a split vote then.

Nobody of any real substance then. It seems the media hype a player enough, others start to believe it.

Well we all have our views but it doesn't fit with my own Sgt.

I'm still confident that we'll do well Rugger, if I had to bet it would be on England to win this year. There's a core of experience there, some really promising players which could force their way in, players like Nowell now have a proper taste of what it's like. loads of players really playing at the top of their game as well.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That was settled unit under SL, we've no idea who Jones fancies.

That's the best summary I've seen of how we stand on the likely make-up of the EPS

And fingers crossed a bit of time with the England squad can help some of the out of form players find that form again.

The likes of Marler, Cole, Brown etc.

Bloody hope so!

This thread is about to finish......

https://www.606v2.com/t61760-england-squad-for-the-6n-2016-2#3241746

I find difficult to know how we'll go, I'm hoping for a backlash. There are a fair few lads in the squad who will have had their faces rubbed in the muck of our World Cup campaign. I feel that we can and will put out a strong team, which means we will be competitive. Will we win? Don't know, we've got a shot but so much is going to ride on how we front up against your lads in the first match.

Under Lancaster we had an 80% SN win record, but I always felt that we were missing that little bit required to turn second into first. Can Jones achieve this? We'll soon find out.