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PrO'12 Launch Officiating Review

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 30 Oct 2015, 1:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Guinness Pro12 bosses have revealed they are undertaking a comprehensive officiating review, focusing predominantly on the appointment of the league's assistant referees.

The issue of refereeing in the Pro12 has been a source of constant debate with league chiefs admitting it has been raised as a concern by all 12 clubs in the division.

At the moment, the leagues' referees and touch judges are able to take charge of matches involving teams from the country of their birth, leading to worries over what could be perceived as potential bias.

As a result, Pro12 chiefs are now exploring the possibility of whether it's possible to appoint impartial assistants for each game moving forwards.

“Officiating is something which is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment,” admitted new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi.

“I am in the process of meeting all the clubs and one of the good things about doing that is you get a feel for a lot of the things which are issues throughout the competition.

“It's clear officiating is one of them

In one of a number of controversial refereeing incidents which took place last season, Connacht boss Pat Lam launched an extraordinary attack on Welsh official Leighton Hodges after the Irish side were beaten by Cardiff Blues in March.

Hodges stepped in to advise referee Lloyd Linton to award the Blues a late penalty in the clash in the Welsh capital, the call prolonging the match and allowing the Blues to steal victory in the 88th minute.

It left Lam, who was fined €8,000, to bemoan a decision which he thought was completely wrong, the Samoan boss arguing officials must be held to account with the livelihoods of rugby's players and coaches on the line.

Lam's outburst wasn't the only such incident last season

After Leinster were beaten by the Scarlets in March, then Leinster coach Matt O'Connor came out strongly against the non-use of neutral referees in the Pro12.

O'Connor, who has since been ditched by the Irish giants, argued at the time that he believed the credibility of the tournament was at stake without impartial officials.

Leinster's 23-13 defeat in Llanelli that day saw O'Connor incensed at Welsh assistants Gwyn Morris and Chris Williams for failing to award what he saw as a try for wing Zane Kirchner.

“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.

“It has to be looked at how they're put together across the board because with meritocracy (European qualification), everything is important.”

While these issues are nothing new, the league is yet to see the implementation of neutral officials.

Tonight's derby between the Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons will be officiated by an all Welsh party with the Welsh Rugby Union providing referee Ben Whitehouse, assistants Neil Hennessy and Dan Jones as well as citing commissioner Gwyn Bowden and TMO Derek Bevan.

A look at the other Pro12 games taking place this weekend sees a combination of Irish and Italian officials take charge of Leinster's trip to Treviso and Scottish assistants Lloyd Linton and Mike Adamson on the line for Glasgow's home game with the Ospreys.

“What we are addressing at the moment is the appointments of the assistant referees rather than the main official,” added Anayi, who revealed earlier this week the Pro12 are exploring the possibility of playing games in America.

“The Unions provide the officials and that's important to make sure as we the Pro12 are not paying for the referees.”

Former England referee Ed Morrison, who took charge of 41 Test matches, is the man currently looking into whether the implementation of completely neutral officials is possible in the Pro12.

Morrison, who works closely with the refereeing managers from the division's four countries, is hoping to help the league achieve a new level of refereeing consistency though it remains to be seen whether that can be achieved.

One issue hindering the implementation of neutral referees or assistants is the lack of quality Scottish and Italian officials to choose from.

“We have employed Ed Morrison to review the whole pool of officials and he will report back to me on that in the near future,” Anayi confirmed.


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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:He did very well in that game, also part of my point. The Irish just don't like him. He penalised the Welsh in the same way eventually leading to a yellow. We can all turn a blind eye and pretend we always get the rough end of decisions but stepping back and reflecting I think we all know this isn't the case.

You're right about the yellows and AWJ was fortunate to escape another, what annoyed most Irish fans was some of the penalties being given then when questioned about Welsh infringements of the same nature he said they were fine so he didn't help matters with those kinds of responses. If he said he didn't see it fair enough

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Post by SecretFly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:40 am

Don't like him?
Don't like our unusual record under him is maybe more accurate, 7&1/2. I don't follow ref stats but from what I was hearing in recent times, Barnes and Ireland just don't gel and not just in the minds of fans on the stats too.

Truly mind over matter?

The presumption then is that Barnes is either the only ref out of all of them, including Owens, who genuinely refs us the right way ..... or..... he's a peculiar exception that seems to frequently land us in the drink?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:41 am

He did see and did explain. Ones from memory was where POC rolls into the scrum half vs one in the 2nd half where the welsh guy tries to roll away is pinned but the balls available. Don't really want to get into a boobie for tat thing as the overall point was that these 2 refs are rated very highly yet people still think both could improve a lot. Point being when you're rating all refs in a league as crap I think the bar is being set too high and is unrealistic.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:43 am

Seriously. Boobie! Cos that's much better than a well known phrase!

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So whats your ideal answer LD? All clubs, provinces and unions pay into a central pot and organise a central fitness and training centre? Given you call Owens a crap ref; a guy who's just reffed the world cup, alongside Barnes as a touch judge who a large proportion of Irish fans think is a rubbish ref it's not likely the standard of ref will ever be judged more than rubbish anyway!


Well, seeing as you are doing your up most to try and provoke me, I will try and give you an answer. I would like a team of referees, all employed by the league, these referees would all work to the same mandates. They will have all the same protocols and instructions, they should have no affiliation to the teams they officiate and they all sing from the same hymn sheet. I want them to be paid to be full time referees and they should train and swat up on the laws and be able to learn what to look for when teams go on to the field with the sole impetus of trying to cheat to gain an advantage.

Yes I call Owens a crap ref, because he lets things go for the "spirit" of the game. It should not be down to him to keep the "spirit" of the game, it should be down to the players and the coaches, the referee's should do exactly what their title is. Referee. They should not turn a blind eye, to let the game flow, they should punish foul play and law breaking. Nigel Owens lets too many things go. That is why I do not rate him overall as a good ref. He is good at communicating and he does know the rules, but he only applies them when he sees fit.

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

Agree with all that in bold. Either the Pro12 run it, or an outside agency. It would be costly, but worth it.

I won't get into the Owens/Barnes thing, other than to say I much prefer Owens style of reffing. He isn't a perfect ref, none are, it's just I like to see games allowed to flow.

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:44 am

boobie

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:44 am

Laugh

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:49 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Yes I call Owens a crap ref, because he lets things go for the "spirit" of the game. It should not be down to him to keep the "spirit" of the game, it should be down to the players and the coaches, the referee's should do exactly what their title is. Referee. They should not turn a blind eye, to let the game flow, they should punish foul play and law breaking. Nigel Owens lets too many things go. That is why I do not rate him overall as a good ref. He is good at communicating and he does know the rules, but he only applies them when he sees fit.

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

Correct.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:50 am

There is no Flow like an Owens Show.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:51 am

Yet both are great refs. If you don't like great, we'll just say judged as 2 of the best in the world. If you perceive them, either of them not to be I think we'll never have a 'good' ref.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:02 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So whats your ideal answer LD? All clubs, provinces and unions pay into a central pot and organise a central fitness and training centre? Given you call Owens a crap ref; a guy who's just reffed the world cup, alongside Barnes as a touch judge who a large proportion of Irish fans think is a rubbish ref it's not likely the standard of ref will ever be judged more than rubbish anyway!


Well, seeing as you are doing your up most to try and provoke me, I will try and give you an answer. I would like a team of referees, all employed by the league, these referees would all work to the same mandates. They will have all the same protocols and instructions, they should have no affiliation to the teams they officiate and they all sing from the same hymn sheet. I want them to be paid to be full time referees and they should train and swat up on the laws and be able to learn what to look for when teams go on to the field with the sole impetus of trying to cheat to gain an advantage.

Yes I call Owens a crap ref, because he lets things go for the "spirit" of the game. It should not be down to him to keep the "spirit" of the game, it should be down to the players and the coaches, the referee's should do exactly what their title is. Referee. They should not turn a blind eye, to let the game flow, they should punish foul play and law breaking. Nigel Owens lets too many things go. That is why I do not rate him overall as a good ref. He is good at communicating and he does know the rules, but he only applies them when he sees fit.

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

Agree with all that in bold. Either the Pro12 run it, or an outside agency. It would be costly, but worth it.

I won't get into the Owens/Barnes thing, other than to say I much prefer Owens style of reffing. He isn't a perfect ref, none are, it's just I like to see games allowed to flow.
Once again I ask where are we getting these refs? Are the existing refs being kept but being paid all year round or do we bring in new refs from sonewhere?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:06 pm

They will be genetically redesigned refs.. totally impartial by default... and strictly no flow preferences in any of them.

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:21 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So whats your ideal answer LD? All clubs, provinces and unions pay into a central pot and organise a central fitness and training centre? Given you call Owens a crap ref; a guy who's just reffed the world cup, alongside Barnes as a touch judge who a large proportion of Irish fans think is a rubbish ref it's not likely the standard of ref will ever be judged more than rubbish anyway!


Well, seeing as you are doing your up most to try and provoke me, I will try and give you an answer. I would like a team of referees, all employed by the league, these referees would all work to the same mandates. They will have all the same protocols and instructions, they should have no affiliation to the teams they officiate and they all sing from the same hymn sheet. I want them to be paid to be full time referees and they should train and swat up on the laws and be able to learn what to look for when teams go on to the field with the sole impetus of trying to cheat to gain an advantage.

Yes I call Owens a crap ref, because he lets things go for the "spirit" of the game. It should not be down to him to keep the "spirit" of the game, it should be down to the players and the coaches, the referee's should do exactly what their title is. Referee. They should not turn a blind eye, to let the game flow, they should punish foul play and law breaking. Nigel Owens lets too many things go. That is why I do not rate him overall as a good ref. He is good at communicating and he does know the rules, but he only applies them when he sees fit.

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

Agree with all that in bold. Either the Pro12 run it, or an outside agency. It would be costly, but worth it.

I won't get into the Owens/Barnes thing, other than to say I much prefer Owens style of reffing. He isn't a perfect ref, none are, it's just I like to see games allowed to flow.
Once again I ask where are we getting these refs? Are the existing refs being kept but being paid all year round or do we bring in new refs from sonewhere?

That's the big question. It all comes down to expense and what is available. It would be expensive, but I think the expense would be worthwhile. I don't think Pro12 should limit itself to picking refs from the nations it represents. We could look at English, French, other European or SH.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

So every side plays by the rules or tries to play by the rules except the Irish sides (International + Provincial)?  You keep saying it's not about the 'Irish'ness of the debate and yet with you, and a few others, it always is about the Irishness in Pro12.

Barnes is grand because he misses a few things here and there (nothing serious just forward passes and foul play  Whistle ) but catches Irish sides cheating (extra brownie points).  
Owens, on the other hand, is bad because he misses nothing but lets most of it slide anyway, and because the Irish like him, and because he can't ref a Welsh International game.  (I repeat and will keep repeating - the Welsh are envious that other sides get Owens because they're a side that would have a field day with him as ref)

But it's not about the Irish.... it's about all of us together correcting the wrongs and making them right...... Wink  

Nice.  Cosy.  Shame that the mood never reflects the policy.

Completely twisting what I am saying to go along with the agenda that I am attacking the Irish again.

picard

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:52 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Once again I ask where are we getting these refs? Are the existing refs being kept but being paid all year round or do we bring in new refs from sonewhere?

I say lets get all our refs together that we have now. Get them all to work with each other, pay them to be full time refs, get them as fit or as close to as fit as the players we can. Lets improve what we have, so that the next generation can get better.

If we have full pro refs, who are fit, and are all singing from the same sheets, then the product that is the Pro12 will improve ten fold.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:58 pm

Get them all to the standard of Owens.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:59 pm

The whole referee being too involved in the external factors of the game doesn't sit comfortable with me. They should be referees and stay out of any other dealings with the game off the pitch.

Nigel Owens is the guest of honour at a gala dinner held at Bath RFC in the same week that he referees Bath RFC V Toulon.

I'd love to know how on earth that is allowed in this day and age of pro sport, and what Toulon feel about it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:04 pm

Because Owens is exactly that Chunky: professional.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because Owens is exactly that Chunky: professional.

Professional enough to not even bother to learn 1 word in French (unlike Barnes and JP Doyle) and to admit to not ever having read the law book. Whadda guy.

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:07 pm

The actual standard of officiating isn't as bad as some are making out. The only reason I would advocate the Pro12, or some other agency, taking over is because it may help raise the level of consistency, and it may help lessen any paranoia about bias/cheating. There's no guarantee, but I think it would.
I also think it will help if we attract more refs outside of Ireland and Wales, LD. You say just keep to what we have, but most of the complaints coming from a certain section of fans is that some of the games are not reffed by neutrals.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:09 pm

Does he know the laws? Yes. Do you need to learn all your commands in every language? No. Didn't hear much Japanese in the Japan games.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does he know the laws? Yes. Do you need to learn all your commands in every language? No. Didn't hear much Japanese in the Japan games.

JP Doyle learnt the basic words "Play" "stop" "retreat" etc in Georgian once he knew he was going to be refereeing Georgia. Nigel is bigger than the game. He doesn't need to do this.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:13 pm

Unfair on whoevers playing the Georgians then as they won't know. JP Doyle ain't as good as Owens. Petty point I feel.

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:13 pm

Most speak English though, and even if they don't I'm sure they understand what they would need to understand.
Any team would be poorly prepared if the coach didn't ensure that all understood what the ref was saying.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unfair on whoevers playing the Georgians then as they won't know..

He was speaking French to the Argentinians, and Georgian to the Georgians in the same match.

Not in our wildest dreams could we expect this level of competency from the chO'sen one.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:22 pm

And yet Owens remains one of the best and is still professional. Doyle at least could have thrown some Spanish in for the Argies!

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:25 pm

Chunky praising an Irishman, the end is nigh!

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:28 pm

heh! A Dublin man is the best ref in the AP Very Happy

How much praise would he get if he reffed the Pro12?

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:29 pm

If Im not mistaken though, I remember Barnes, or a commentator, saying he learned French so he could get assignments ahead of others so its basic career advancement

Im pretty sure Im heard Owens through out a bit of basic French in games when needed

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:30 pm

marty2086 wrote:Chunky praising an Irishman, the end is nigh!

There's lots of Irish people I admire and praise.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:47 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Chunky praising an Irishman, the end is nigh!

There's lots of Irish people I admire and praise.

That's the trouble on here, we highlight issues within our league and try to address them, the Irish think we are on some sort of crusade against them.

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:50 pm

There's ample evidence to suggest as much, LD.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Chunky praising an Irishman, the end is nigh!

There's lots of Irish people I admire and praise.

That's the trouble on here, we highlight issues within our league and try to address them, the Irish think we are on some sort of crusade against them.

We are not allowed to address the issues. If there is something wrong with the league it must be a crazy theory.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Chunky praising an Irishman, the end is nigh!

There's lots of Irish people I admire and praise.

That's the trouble on here, we highlight issues within our league and try to address them, the Irish think we are on some sort of crusade against them.

I wonder why we would think that

'You see, this is it with you lot. I see crap refs, mostly Irish, because the Welsh regions for what ever reason always seem to get the Irish refs, I see them officiating the regions against Irish opposition and being crap and inconsistent, I see them favouring the Irish provinces, and then these arguments ensue.'


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:59 pm

Munchkin, with all due respect, it comes across as though you and your gang just want to bury head in the sand when it comes to the issues in the Pro12. Perhaps it is due to the fact that at the moment the league suits your system. But I am not on any crusade against the Irish.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:03 pm

There's no realistic way you're going to improve the standard of officiating beyond that of Owens current level though.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no realistic way you're going to improve the standard of officiating beyond that of Owens current level though.

Yes there is.Get them all to Wayne Barnes's level.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:05 pm

I think we have to accept that the standard of officiating is unacceptable. We also have to accept that Irish ref's reffing Irish vs Welsh teams and being inconsistent will raise a few eye-brows - that's natural and people overreact a bit. There is a bit of a mob mentality on here and it rears its head when you say something slightly disparaging about ANYTHING Irish. But saying that I just got attacked by an angry Scot for claiming John Hardie isn't in the top 5 open-sides in world rugby, so anything is possible. Before I get replies I don't think the Welsh are angels, nor do I think they're the worst WUMs and instigators of every single battle that takes place on here - which is what a lot of you will try and have us believe!

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:06 pm

Well it's crazy to say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, just as it's crazy to think that the Pro12 having its administration in Ireland is an unfair advantage to the Provinces.
It's crazy to suggest that Irish refs being paid by IRFU somehow implicates them as bedfellows of the Provinces, and cheating on their behalf.
It's crazy to suggest that last seasons change of Pro12 final criteria was a fix to favour an Irish side.
It's crazy to suggest that having Guinness as sponsor means that the Pro12 should favour the Provinces.
It's crazy to suggest that the Provinces have the buying power of the big French sides.
It's crazy to suggest that certain Welsh Regions having their game mostly on Sundays is somehow the fault of the Provinces, and just as crazy to think that Ulster giving up some of its Friday games can help rectify that.

...and on and on and on....

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, with all due respect, it comes across as though you and your gang just want to bury head in the sand when it comes to the issues in the Pro12. Perhaps it is due to the fact that at the moment the league suits your system. But I am not on any crusade against the Irish.

LD, if you bothered reading back everyone has said the standards of officiating need to improve the problem is some lay the blame at the wrong door

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:Well it's crazy to say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, just as it's crazy to think that the Pro12 having its administration in Ireland is an unfair advantage to the Provinces.
It's crazy to suggest that Irish refs being paid by IRFU somehow implicates them as bedfellows of the Provinces, and cheating on their behalf.
It's crazy to suggest that last seasons change of Pro12 final criteria was a fix to favour an Irish side.
It's crazy to suggest that having Guinness as sponsor means that the Pro12 should favour the Provinces.
It's crazy to suggest that the Provinces have the buying power of the big French sides.
It's crazy to suggest that certain Welsh Regions having their game mostly on Sundays is somehow the fault of the Provinces, and just as crazy to think that Ulster giving up some of its Friday games can help rectify that.

...and on and on and on....

clap

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:10 pm

Owens and Barnes are up there together as the best for me as I've said or implied here at least. Neither are a country mile better than the other and I think that's generally accepted when you see the praise that you certainly saw with the news that Owens got the final. I think you're on the outside of not thinking Owens is a blooming good ref so I doubt you'd happy with any level of reffing. You're simply not going to get everyone up to the standard of those 2 anyway, the same as you'd not get all open sides up to the level of McCaw even with the same training. We're all human, we will all differ to some degree naturally.

I agree that a central point for refs would be a good idea etc but the outcome you would be looking for will never be reached.

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, with all due respect, it comes across as though you and your gang just want to bury head in the sand when it comes to the issues in the Pro12. Perhaps it is due to the fact that at the moment the league suits your system. But I am not on any crusade against the Irish.

It's suits our system how? Detail that for me.

It doesn't suit your system in what ways? Detail that for me.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:39 pm

Munchkin wrote:It's suits our system how? Detail that for me.

Because it allows referees from the same organisation as the players to officiate matches. Also, there is no salary cap, so the mega rich IRFU can spend as much as they need to keep the Irish provinces at the top of the league to swallow up all the European places.

Munchkin wrote:It doesn't suit your system in what ways? Detail that for me.

The exact opposite as the answer to your first question.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:49 pm

It's surely easier (though not strictly on topic) for the Welsh regions to remove the wage cap if they feel it's a major issue that persuade the Irish?

As I've said I think even if there's a central structure for refs people will still see bias where none exists.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's surely easier (though not strictly on topic) for the Welsh regions to remove the wage cap if they feel it's a major issue that persuade the Irish?

As I've said I think even if there's a central structure for refs people will still see bias where none exists.

Which has been said all along but some people are entrenched in their own paranoia

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Post by Guest Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:54 pm

You've just ticked two of the points I described as crazy.

WRU employs the Welsh refs. WRU also pay most of the DC for players it shares with the Regions. SRU and FIR also pay for their refs.
I know you see a difference as the 3.5 of the Regions are privately owned, but in reality there is no difference. According to your logic, Welsh refs will favour Welsh sides.
There is zero evidence to suggest that Irish refs are biased. In fact if you look at the results you will find that the Provinces lose more often than not when officiated by an Irish ref against Welsh sides.

Mega rich IRFU? Nowhere near as rich as RFU, and possibly not as rich as WRU. Your claim isn't supported by facts. The IRFU is releasing more money to the Provinces, but much of that money is being allocated for development.

The regions pride themselves on being independent businesses. Although these independent businesses do receive funding from WRU (much more now with the DC's), it should be these independent businesses that provide the extra funding required to compete at the top.

If you have a gripe, your gripe should be directed towards these independent businesses.

Neither of your points actually say anything about why the Pro12 suits the Provinces more than the Regions. Is that it?


Last edited by Munchkin on Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:58 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:Which has been said all along but some people are entrenched in their own paranoia

Reverting to type again I see marty. Why you cannot debate in a sensible grown up way is beyond comprehension.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:56 pm

You skipped my point LD.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 3:00 pm

Munchkin wrote:WRU also pay most of the DC for players it shares with the Regions

You do realise that the payment is what the regions pay for the use of the players. The same that happens in every other country where the unions do not own the clubs.

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