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PrO'12 Launch Officiating Review

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Guinness Pro12 bosses have revealed they are undertaking a comprehensive officiating review, focusing predominantly on the appointment of the league's assistant referees.

The issue of refereeing in the Pro12 has been a source of constant debate with league chiefs admitting it has been raised as a concern by all 12 clubs in the division.

At the moment, the leagues' referees and touch judges are able to take charge of matches involving teams from the country of their birth, leading to worries over what could be perceived as potential bias.

As a result, Pro12 chiefs are now exploring the possibility of whether it's possible to appoint impartial assistants for each game moving forwards.

“Officiating is something which is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment,” admitted new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi.

“I am in the process of meeting all the clubs and one of the good things about doing that is you get a feel for a lot of the things which are issues throughout the competition.

“It's clear officiating is one of them

In one of a number of controversial refereeing incidents which took place last season, Connacht boss Pat Lam launched an extraordinary attack on Welsh official Leighton Hodges after the Irish side were beaten by Cardiff Blues in March.

Hodges stepped in to advise referee Lloyd Linton to award the Blues a late penalty in the clash in the Welsh capital, the call prolonging the match and allowing the Blues to steal victory in the 88th minute.

It left Lam, who was fined €8,000, to bemoan a decision which he thought was completely wrong, the Samoan boss arguing officials must be held to account with the livelihoods of rugby's players and coaches on the line.

Lam's outburst wasn't the only such incident last season

After Leinster were beaten by the Scarlets in March, then Leinster coach Matt O'Connor came out strongly against the non-use of neutral referees in the Pro12.

O'Connor, who has since been ditched by the Irish giants, argued at the time that he believed the credibility of the tournament was at stake without impartial officials.

Leinster's 23-13 defeat in Llanelli that day saw O'Connor incensed at Welsh assistants Gwyn Morris and Chris Williams for failing to award what he saw as a try for wing Zane Kirchner.

“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.

“It has to be looked at how they're put together across the board because with meritocracy (European qualification), everything is important.”

While these issues are nothing new, the league is yet to see the implementation of neutral officials.

Tonight's derby between the Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons will be officiated by an all Welsh party with the Welsh Rugby Union providing referee Ben Whitehouse, assistants Neil Hennessy and Dan Jones as well as citing commissioner Gwyn Bowden and TMO Derek Bevan.

A look at the other Pro12 games taking place this weekend sees a combination of Irish and Italian officials take charge of Leinster's trip to Treviso and Scottish assistants Lloyd Linton and Mike Adamson on the line for Glasgow's home game with the Ospreys.

“What we are addressing at the moment is the appointments of the assistant referees rather than the main official,” added Anayi, who revealed earlier this week the Pro12 are exploring the possibility of playing games in America.

“The Unions provide the officials and that's important to make sure as we the Pro12 are not paying for the referees.”

Former England referee Ed Morrison, who took charge of 41 Test matches, is the man currently looking into whether the implementation of completely neutral officials is possible in the Pro12.

Morrison, who works closely with the refereeing managers from the division's four countries, is hoping to help the league achieve a new level of refereeing consistency though it remains to be seen whether that can be achieved.

One issue hindering the implementation of neutral referees or assistants is the lack of quality Scottish and Italian officials to choose from.

“We have employed Ed Morrison to review the whole pool of officials and he will report back to me on that in the near future,” Anayi confirmed.


WalesOnline

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:25 am

marty2086 wrote:

I know you mean Euros but did you ask Sin if he did?

Oh aye

Chunky Norwich wrote:How much do you think Leinster, Munster and Ulster spend on squad wags per annum?

Sin é wrote:I don't know, but I'd guess about 4 or 5 million.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Euros?

Sin é wrote:Yes. The players are not that well paid - most the squad would be on about 50K per annum

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:43 am

Id be interested to know how he arrived at those figures, I'd disagree but the problem is it will only ever be guess work based on small bits of information and building from there

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:28 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

For me, the best refs are the ones I don't really notice.

You must think Nigel Owens is abysmal then

"Look at me, look at me, Soccer is rubbish, what Time am I on stage tonight? Not straight........ oooooh matron"

etc


Can't say he strikes me as a Kenneth Williams type character, but I get your point. Owens is good at his job, and I do like that he allows the game to flow, but I do prefer refs that are less obvious on the field.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:33 pm

marty2086 wrote:FYI

Regions squad sizes are
Ospreys-52
Scarlets-59
Dragons-49
Cardiff-58

All bigger than Ulsters squad! Rolling Eyes

I counted 52 in Scarlets, but it does make a mockery of LD's accusations Very Happy

Hey, LD, we have 45 players. and you 52!!! Mega rich Scarlets!! So unfair Very Happy

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:35 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:FYI

Regions squad sizes are
Ospreys-52
Scarlets-59
Dragons-49
Cardiff-58

All bigger than Ulsters squad! Rolling Eyes

But when you have squad members like Gavin Evans on your books that doesn't really count!

Seeing as you mentioned Ulster, I have to say I was very impressed with the strong team they could put out when they were without their 9 internationals. Same goes for Munster but not exactly sure how many they had missing.

Strong team? Have you seen our results? The away games were dire, and the last home game wasn't much better. Still, you have a point. On paper the teams looked fairly strong, just playing rubbish, although we do have our own 'Gavin Evans' in that 45 man squad.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:39 pm

I have seen the results. Doesn't mean Ulster are a terrible team, you can't say the team put out on the opening weekend wasn't strong.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:40 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I have seen the results. Doesn't mean Ulster are a terrible team, you can't say the team put out on the opening weekend wasn't strong.

I added to the comment Very Happy

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:FYI

Regions squad sizes are
Ospreys-52
Scarlets-59
Dragons-49
Cardiff-58

All bigger than Ulsters squad! Rolling Eyes

I counted 52 in Scarlets, but it does make a mockery of LD's accusations Very Happy

Hey, LD, we have 45 players. and you 52!!! Mega rich Scarlets!! So unfair Very Happy

Considering the salary cap only applies to the regions Europeans squads, which are capped at 41, it would seem they are probably spending more than £3.5m

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:43 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:FYI

Regions squad sizes are
Ospreys-52
Scarlets-59
Dragons-49
Cardiff-58

All bigger than Ulsters squad! Rolling Eyes

I counted 52 in Scarlets, but it does make a mockery of LD's accusations Very Happy

Hey, LD, we have 45 players. and you 52!!! Mega rich Scarlets!! So unfair Very Happy

Considering the salary cap only applies to the regions Europeans squads, which are capped at 41, it would seem they are probably spending more than £3.5m

Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:FYI

Regions squad sizes are
Ospreys-52
Scarlets-59
Dragons-49
Cardiff-58

All bigger than Ulsters squad! Rolling Eyes

I counted 52 in Scarlets, but it does make a mockery of LD's accusations Very Happy

Hey, LD, we have 45 players. and you 52!!! Mega rich Scarlets!! So unfair Very Happy

Considering the salary cap only applies to the regions Europeans squads, which are capped at 41, it would seem they are probably spending more than £3.5m

Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

I demand one of them take Ian Humphreys! That'd be playing fair

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:53 pm

Seems a bit harsh Shocked

On them Very Happy

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I have seen the results. Doesn't mean Ulster are a terrible team, you can't say the team put out on the opening weekend wasn't strong.

I added to the comment Very Happy

They do, and thus far they've only lost to good teams so maybe it isn't so bad. Ulster punished Ospreys and Blues so they're not only strong on paper - the Irish are doing something right as far as I can tell.

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:15 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about the big spending Scarlets Munchkin, the IRFU... sorry the PRO12 measures will soon take effect and put them back in their box.
Apparently faced with the reduced opportunity to whinge about the lack of regional success in West Wales, the NHS suddenly found a marked increase in the well-being of the population. This in turn meant that fewer people in that region were seeking private medical attention due to reduced waiting times. The subsequent release of top consultancy hours was threatening to expedite the recovery schedules of Scarlets players and increase their dominance further.
The solution? Debate the Westminster Bill to change junior doctors hours and force a strike, thus overloading the NHS and drawing on the consultants time to divert their attention away from the Scarlets.
Naturally the wily old strategists at the Scarlets saw this one coming from the Irish dominated PRO12 and gradually snuck a few extra players into their squad under the radar to cope with the envisaged shortfall.
However this one was also anticipated by the Machiavellian Irish who have a clever counter attack being launched into looking at work visas and links to the refugee crisis...

Honestly you couldn't make it up.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

Over the summer the Scarlets lost 3 Wales internationals in Adam Warren, Rhys Priestland and Rob Mcusker plus a host of players like Jo Snyman, Jacobie Adrainse, Kyle Evans, Sion Bennett Josh Adams, Kristian Phillips. Most were replaced with academy products. So coupled with the savings of National Dual Contracts, you need some additional context before you look at the whole picture.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I have seen the results. Doesn't mean Ulster are a terrible team, you can't say the team put out on the opening weekend wasn't strong.

I added to the comment Very Happy

They do, and thus far they've only lost to good teams so maybe it isn't so bad. Ulster punished Ospreys and Blues so they're not only strong on paper - the Irish are doing something right as far as I can tell.

Cardiff almost caught us in our home game. We really didn't play well. Against Scarlets we were shocking. I'm not taking anything away from Scarlets in saying that. They are improving, and any side will find it difficult to beat them at home.
It's not all glum. We can improve, we have to, and I think we will once Kiss gets to grips with his role/dual roles at Ulster Rugby. Against Munster we showed that we can still play an attractive attacking brand of rugby, but we were weak in defence. We do have the players. We just need the right coaching and the collective will to succeed.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:06 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the big spending Scarlets Munchkin, the IRFU... sorry the PRO12 measures will soon take effect and put them back in their box.
Apparently faced with the reduced opportunity to whinge about the lack of regional success in West Wales, the NHS suddenly found a marked increase in the well-being of the population. This in turn meant that fewer people in that region were seeking private medical attention due to reduced waiting times. The subsequent release of top consultancy hours was threatening to expedite the recovery schedules of Scarlets players and increase their dominance further.
The solution? Debate the Westminster Bill to change junior doctors hours and force a strike, thus overloading the NHS and drawing on the consultants time to divert their attention away from the Scarlets.
Naturally the wily old strategists at the Scarlets saw this one coming from the Irish dominated PRO12 and gradually snuck a few extra players into their squad under the radar to cope with the envisaged shortfall.
However this one was also anticipated by the Machiavellian Irish who have a clever counter attack being launched into looking at work visas and links to the refugee crisis...

Honestly you couldn't make it up.

Excellent, we can't allow a dominant Wales, and the refugee angle is a touch of genius. They might even have some English in there Shocked

All in the name of fairness, of course angel

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Post by profitius Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:To help the regions become more competitive financially with the rest of Europe. Now once again, how is a salary going to improve the league?

It would stop the Irish provinces having the monopoly on the top places and give other teams a chance to get into Europe and earn extra cash, thus making out league more competitive.


Isn't it funny. For years the Welsh have complained about the standards of the celtic/magners/pro 12 and constantly saying how sh!te it is and the Irish teams don't try. Now as the league is getting more competitive, the complaints are about Irish wage levels! In other words, they want the Irish teams weakened so the Welsh can be more competitive.


There were complaints about sponsors and TV deals. Guinness (a faux Irish company) comes on board and suddenly its used as an excuse of Irish control of the league.


I can't remember any Scottish complaining about the league. They were down in the dumps for years but they didn't complain and focused on getting their own house in order. The result is Glasgow winning the league and Edinburgh is also looking more competitive. Should we limit their expenses too?


It simply looks to me like Welsh entitlement. If they're not winning then it must be someone elses fault. Of course not all Welsh posters but more than enough.
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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:12 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

Over the summer the Scarlets lost 3 Wales internationals in Adam Warren, Rhys Priestland and Rob Mcusker plus a host of players like Jo Snyman, Jacobie Adrainse, Kyle Evans, Sion Bennett Josh Adams, Kristian Phillips. Most were replaced with academy products.  So coupled with the savings of National Dual Contracts, you need some additional context before you look at the whole picture.

A very unconvincing counter argument. I really don't think the Scarlets 52 is packed with talent, but the same is true for Ulster's 45 players named in the squad. Do you think the Ulster squad are all top class, or that we haven't had to draw from our academy pool? Honestly, some of the names named in that squad baffle me slightly.

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:46 pm

The Ulster list includes players on development contract who are paid very little - the number of full time contracts is about 40/41.
This is 5 or 6 higher than has been the case in the last 5 years and quite frankly there is an awful lot of dross in there.
The main reason for this is because we only have 1 high profile NIQ player (Pienaer).
The other 4 have 1 International cap between them.

If we sign 2 or 3 NIQ players next year, as I think we will, you will see a reduction in the squad size to its more normal 34/35.
As has been made clear the salary levels, taking everything into account, at the 3 senior provinces is equitable to the top English teams.
That is our bench mark.

We will never agree to a reduction in that and from a league perspective it would be madness to do.
In order to make the Pro12 competitive its salaries for the top teams needs to be competitive with the English.
How other countries ensure they reach those levels is down to their internal organization.

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

Over the summer the Scarlets lost 3 Wales internationals in Adam Warren, Rhys Priestland and Rob Mcusker plus a host of players like Jo Snyman, Jacobie Adrainse, Kyle Evans, Sion Bennett Josh Adams, Kristian Phillips. Most were replaced with academy products.  So coupled with the savings of National Dual Contracts, you need some additional context before you look at the whole picture.

You really dont get sarcasm do you?

I didn't catch you telling LD to look at the whole picture when he was complaining about Ulster

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:59 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

Over the summer the Scarlets lost 3 Wales internationals in Adam Warren, Rhys Priestland and Rob Mcusker plus a host of players like Jo Snyman, Jacobie Adrainse, Kyle Evans, Sion Bennett Josh Adams, Kristian Phillips. Most were replaced with academy products.  So coupled with the savings of National Dual Contracts, you need some additional context before you look at the whole picture.

A very unconvincing counter argument. I really don't think the Scarlets 52 is packed with talent, but the same is true for Ulster's 45 players named in the squad. Do you think the Ulster squad are all top class, or that we haven't had to draw from our academy pool? Honestly, some of the names named in that squad baffle me slightly.

I'm just explaining where the money to sign DTH came from, as you clearly misunderstood.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:06 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Keeping their internationals, and signing up the likes of DTH can't have been cheap. I demand mega rich Scarlets stop spending so much on players, and play fair mad

Over the summer the Scarlets lost 3 Wales internationals in Adam Warren, Rhys Priestland and Rob Mcusker plus a host of players like Jo Snyman, Jacobie Adrainse, Kyle Evans, Sion Bennett Josh Adams, Kristian Phillips. Most were replaced with academy products.  So coupled with the savings of National Dual Contracts, you need some additional context before you look at the whole picture.

A very unconvincing counter argument. I really don't think the Scarlets 52 is packed with talent, but the same is true for Ulster's 45 players named in the squad. Do you think the Ulster squad are all top class, or that we haven't had to draw from our academy pool? Honestly, some of the names named in that squad baffle me slightly.

I'm just explaining where the money to sign DTH came from, as you clearly misunderstood.

I understood your argument, Chunky, but within the context of LD's contentions the argument is lacking, and lacking because the same can be said of Ulster. That was my point, and that's why I made clear that I really wasn't trying to say that Scarlets are a super rich Region.

One of my first points to LD was that quality is more important than quantity, and that applies to Scarlets as much as Ulster. For LD to use the numbers in the Ulster squad as proof of 'big money' is a bit hypocritical if he then ignores the number of players in the Regions. Not that he has, but the implication is there.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:10 pm

Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:10 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I understood your argument, Chunky, but within the context of LD's contentions the argument is lacking, and lacking because the same can be said of Ulster. That was my point, and that's why I made clear that I really wasn't trying to say that Scarlets are a super rich Region.

One of my first points to LD was that quality is more important than quantity, and that applies to Scarlets as much as Ulster. For LD to use the numbers in the Ulster squad as proof of 'big money' is a bit hypocritical if he then ignores the number of players in the Regions. Not that he has, but the implication is there.

I tend to agree. You can't tell much just from a squad number.

The bigger picture is that there are alot of pro players in the 4 provincial squads. Yet we're told that the Irish provinces spend about as much as the Welsh. Which doesn't compute when you look at all the money being ploughed into the Irish game for wages.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

Chunky explained why the can afford certain players, and we are no different. We can afford to make a few big signings because we are not allowed to sign who we want, when we want. This has been explained to you multiple times, and still it doesn't sink in.

You cite the number of players Ulster has, and totally disregard the number of players Scarlets, and any of the Regions, have. This is typical of your line of argument. Kind of plank in the eye thing.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I understood your argument, Chunky, but within the context of LD's contentions the argument is lacking, and lacking because the same can be said of Ulster. That was my point, and that's why I made clear that I really wasn't trying to say that Scarlets are a super rich Region.

One of my first points to LD was that quality is more important than quantity, and that applies to Scarlets as much as Ulster. For LD to use the numbers in the Ulster squad as proof of 'big money' is a bit hypocritical if he then ignores the number of players in the Regions. Not that he has, but the implication is there.

I tend to agree. You can't tell much just from a squad number.

The bigger picture is that there are alot of pro players in the 4 provincial squads. Yet we're told that the Irish provinces spend about as much as the Welsh. Which doesn't compute when you look at all the money being ploughed into the Irish game for wages.

I don't think many are claiming that we spend the same levels of the Regions. Do any? Just that our spending isn't at the level some claim it to be. Our spending isn't really measured against the Regions. It's more measured against the English clubs.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:18 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

Chunky explained why the can afford certain players, and we are no different. We can afford to make a few big signings because we are not allowed to sign who we want, when we want. This has been explained to you multiple times, and still it doesn't sink in.

You cite the number of players Ulster has, and totally disregard the number of players Scarlets, and any of the Regions, have. This is typical of your line of argument. Kind of plank in the eye thing.

The quality overseas players Irish provinces bring in far exceeds what the Welsh can because of their budget though. This makes a huge difference. You only have to read the names of overseas players you guys have bought in the last 10 years to see the advantage.

Remember when Leisnter had a lock injry crisis and they needed cover? They just signed world cup winner Brad Thorn for a few games in Europe. Who duly guided them all the way.

It just takes a bit of squad planning. I'm not knocking your system by the way, and it's not your fault if other countries have bad systems. But don't try to tell us you're on equal footing with the Welsh or anybody else.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:19 pm

Munchkin wrote:
I don't think many are claiming that we spend the same levels of the Regions. Do any? .

As I've shown, Sin e claimed that Irish spending was less than the regions.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:20 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

Chunky explained why the can afford certain players, and we are no different. We can afford to make a few big signings because we are not allowed to sign who we want, when we want. This has been explained to you multiple times, and still it doesn't sink in.

You cite the number of players Ulster has, and totally disregard the number of players Scarlets, and any of the Regions, have. This is typical of your line of argument. Kind of plank in the eye thing.

The quality overseas players Irish provinces bring in far exceeds what the Welsh can because of their budget though. This makes a huge difference. You only have to read the names of overseas players you guys have bought in the last 10 years to see the advantage.

Remember when Leisnter had a lock injry crisis and they needed cover? They just signed world cup winner Brad Thorn for a few games in Europe. Who duly guided them all the way.

It just takes a bit of squad planning. I'm not knocking your system by the way, and it's not your fault if other countries have bad systems. But don't try to tell us you're on equal footing with the Welsh or anybody else.

Well said Chunks. OK

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

Chunky explained why the can afford certain players, and we are no different. We can afford to make a few big signings because we are not allowed to sign who we want, when we want. This has been explained to you multiple times, and still it doesn't sink in.

You cite the number of players Ulster has, and totally disregard the number of players Scarlets, and any of the Regions, have. This is typical of your line of argument. Kind of plank in the eye thing.

The quality overseas players Irish provinces bring in far exceeds what the Welsh can because of their budget though. This makes a huge difference. You only have to read the names of overseas players you guys have bought in the last 10 years to see the advantage.

Remember when Leisnter had a lock injry crisis and they needed cover? They just signed world cup winner Brad Thorn for a few games in Europe. Who duly guided them all the way.

It just takes a bit of squad planning. I'm not knocking your system by the way, and it's not your fault if other countries have bad systems. But don't try to tell us you're on equal footing with the Welsh or anybody else.

We can afford bigger signings, but we don't always bring in bigger signings. Ludik, Herbst and Van der Merwe were not big signings. Shrewd, certainly, but not big. Next season is different. We will be investing in big signings. DTH is a bit of a catch for Scarlets, and although I don't know the cost, it couldn't have been cheap.

As for being on an equal footing with the Welsh? I more or less agree with your point, although you would have to ignore the Ospreys for that to be completely true, but I disagree with the 'anybody else' comment. Simply not true. We are not competing with the AP or T14 in bringing in world class players. We do get a few, but only a few throughout the many years.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:51 pm

So you negotiate with the parties in the Pro 12 to agree a salary cap, abolish the Welsh cap or find a better way to compete.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you negotiate with the parties in the Pro 12 to agree a salary cap, abolish the Welsh cap or find a better way to compete.

thumbsup

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

As a point of information neither are Ulster.
Pienaer was offered that sort of money to go to France he chose to stay here for significantly less


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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:14 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

As a point of information neither are Ulster.
Pienaer was offered that sort of money to go to France he chose to stay here for significantly less


Multiple sources have reported Piatau will be earning 500k a year at Ulster.

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Post by carpet baboon Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:06 pm

Is he playing for ulster? Is he at ulster?

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:44 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Scarlets are not spending 500K+ on single players.

As a point of information neither are Ulster.
Pienaer was offered that sort of money to go to France he chose to stay here for significantly less


Multiple sources have reported Piatau will be earning 500k a year at Ulster.

And as he comes in Williams, Van Der Merwe and Ludik go out and if Im not mistaken Henderson moves to a central contract with the IRFU

With the new setup in Wales the regions will have more spending power too

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:20 pm

Funny that LD claims £500k+ Although he didn't specify Euro or pounds, I'm sure he meant pounds. The alleged £500k isn't enough for him. He has to exaggerate the speculated signing fee.

I'm not yet convinced that Piutau is signing for £500k. Personally I don't think so. I think the figure is more likely to be around £350k (€500k). Makes more sense to me.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:21 pm

That seems a bit much for a guy like Piatau. When are Ulster losing those three players?

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:24 pm

There are very few guys like Piutau on the market. Very few.

We lose the three at the end of the season. Contracts are up, and it is believed we have signed/are signing three others, including Piutau.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:28 pm

These All blacks are expensive players I guess. He'll be a great signing but I can't be sure he'll be that much better than Ludik who's been a revelation at 15 and probably at 50% of price.

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:29 pm

The reports were of a £1m pound contract but it seems everyone was working of the reports from NZ

mikey the guy can consider himself unlucky not to have been at the RWC, he was one of the ABs best players in the warm up, he can play from 11 to 15, is lighting quick, strong and the reaction of the NZRU to him leaving says how much they wanted him to stay

The 3 are expected to leave Ulster this summer

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:35 pm

How does every Pro12 thread end up eventually about budgets and wages.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:How does every Pro12 thread end up eventually about budgets and wages.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Chunky started it! Whistle

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:38 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:These All blacks are expensive players I guess. He'll be a great signing but I can't be sure he'll be that much better than Ludik who's been a revelation at 15 and probably at 50% of price.

Ludik has been a great signing for us, and I will be sorry to see him go. He gives his all every time he plays. Piutau is on a different level though, but you're right that we won't really know what we have got until he plays for us. I think he will light up the Pro12.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:43 pm

LondonTiger wrote:How does every Pro12 thread end up eventually about budgets and wages.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Are you guys not bored of saying the same thing time after time after time.

Because Ulster apparently have player budgets equal to the biggest in the world. That's actually what is being claimed....

It can be very tedious, but also very funny at times. Incredible that no matter how much some guys are given the facts to disprove their claims, they still persist with those claims.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:47 pm

Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:These All blacks are expensive players I guess. He'll be a great signing but I can't be sure he'll be that much better than Ludik who's been a revelation at 15 and probably at 50% of price.

Ludik has been a great signing for us, and I will be sorry to see him go. He gives his all every time he plays. Piutau is on a different level though, but you're right that we won't really know what we have got until he plays for us. I think he will light up the Pro12.

Hope so. Kind of wish Welsh teams could bring guys like him and Saili to the league again.

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Post by Guest Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:57 pm

To be fair, it isn't as though the Provinces are signing guys like this every season. Far from it. I don't think it will be long before the Regions are able to make big signings of their own, outside of the big Welsh names.

As much as I appreciate some of these guys coming in I would still much prefer not to have a need to look outside for the necessary talent.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:28 am

Anyway, what about the referees and the officiating in the Pro12 ?

Lets get back on topic. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:59 am

Should it be an equal split of money from each union or weighted to the number of clubs into a central pot? Do the refs need a base /hub built or would they get training coming out to them seeing as they won't all live in the same part of the world? What's the ideal system, and what is a realistic compromise?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Should it be an equal split of money from each union or weighted to the number of clubs into a central pot? Do the refs need a base /hub built or would they get training coming out to them seeing as they won't all live in the same part of the world? What's the ideal system, and what is a realistic compromise?

The league should look at getting the referees in, they should do all the hiring and firing, they should asses each individual who applies and train them up to the level required. The form of payment should then come in league fees. The teams pay their league fees and that should cover the supplying of the referees. The league can then request quarterly meetings for their referees and give them all the same mandates and protocols. I would like the league then to have a sort of area executive/senior ref who makes sure that the referees in his area are all complying to the remits of their employment, and making sure they are keeping fit and genned up on all the latest Pro12 protocols and mandates.

Or is this all too much to ask for ?

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