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PrO'12 Launch Officiating Review

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 30 Oct 2015, 1:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Guinness Pro12 bosses have revealed they are undertaking a comprehensive officiating review, focusing predominantly on the appointment of the league's assistant referees.

The issue of refereeing in the Pro12 has been a source of constant debate with league chiefs admitting it has been raised as a concern by all 12 clubs in the division.

At the moment, the leagues' referees and touch judges are able to take charge of matches involving teams from the country of their birth, leading to worries over what could be perceived as potential bias.

As a result, Pro12 chiefs are now exploring the possibility of whether it's possible to appoint impartial assistants for each game moving forwards.

“Officiating is something which is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment,” admitted new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi.

“I am in the process of meeting all the clubs and one of the good things about doing that is you get a feel for a lot of the things which are issues throughout the competition.

“It's clear officiating is one of them

In one of a number of controversial refereeing incidents which took place last season, Connacht boss Pat Lam launched an extraordinary attack on Welsh official Leighton Hodges after the Irish side were beaten by Cardiff Blues in March.

Hodges stepped in to advise referee Lloyd Linton to award the Blues a late penalty in the clash in the Welsh capital, the call prolonging the match and allowing the Blues to steal victory in the 88th minute.

It left Lam, who was fined €8,000, to bemoan a decision which he thought was completely wrong, the Samoan boss arguing officials must be held to account with the livelihoods of rugby's players and coaches on the line.

Lam's outburst wasn't the only such incident last season

After Leinster were beaten by the Scarlets in March, then Leinster coach Matt O'Connor came out strongly against the non-use of neutral referees in the Pro12.

O'Connor, who has since been ditched by the Irish giants, argued at the time that he believed the credibility of the tournament was at stake without impartial officials.

Leinster's 23-13 defeat in Llanelli that day saw O'Connor incensed at Welsh assistants Gwyn Morris and Chris Williams for failing to award what he saw as a try for wing Zane Kirchner.

“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.

“It has to be looked at how they're put together across the board because with meritocracy (European qualification), everything is important.”

While these issues are nothing new, the league is yet to see the implementation of neutral officials.

Tonight's derby between the Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons will be officiated by an all Welsh party with the Welsh Rugby Union providing referee Ben Whitehouse, assistants Neil Hennessy and Dan Jones as well as citing commissioner Gwyn Bowden and TMO Derek Bevan.

A look at the other Pro12 games taking place this weekend sees a combination of Irish and Italian officials take charge of Leinster's trip to Treviso and Scottish assistants Lloyd Linton and Mike Adamson on the line for Glasgow's home game with the Ospreys.

“What we are addressing at the moment is the appointments of the assistant referees rather than the main official,” added Anayi, who revealed earlier this week the Pro12 are exploring the possibility of playing games in America.

“The Unions provide the officials and that's important to make sure as we the Pro12 are not paying for the referees.”

Former England referee Ed Morrison, who took charge of 41 Test matches, is the man currently looking into whether the implementation of completely neutral officials is possible in the Pro12.

Morrison, who works closely with the refereeing managers from the division's four countries, is hoping to help the league achieve a new level of refereeing consistency though it remains to be seen whether that can be achieved.

One issue hindering the implementation of neutral referees or assistants is the lack of quality Scottish and Italian officials to choose from.

“We have employed Ed Morrison to review the whole pool of officials and he will report back to me on that in the near future,” Anayi confirmed.


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Post by thebandwagonsociety Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:25 pm

LD, you see Irish refs in Wales when Irish teams are visiting.

In Ireland we see Welsh refs in Ireland when welsh teams are visiting.

This only started 3-4 seasons ago because both the provinces and the regions were giving out loads about being stuck with scottish and italian refs who were sub standard. It was decided between the regions and provinces that they would accept an official from the visiting union to officiate the games as the quality would improve.

Irish provinces have a far lower winning percentage when irish refs officiate games in Wales than welsh regions have when welsh refs officiate games here in Ireland. That's based on last season, so the most recent full season stats available.


The officiating isn't perfect. It could definitely be improved and should be improved. Just the constant targetting of irish officials on this site in particular I find a bit unjustified when Irish teams do worse in games with Irish refs compared to in games with refs of other nationalities.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. Should be a really easy solution then.

You would think so wouldn't you.

Eventually I would like to see fully Pro referees all employed by the league, all reading from the same hymn book, and I would also like to see a salary cap brought into the Pro12. I would also like to see a league where there are no limits on the amount of games internationals can play in. But one step at a time hey.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:30 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:LD, you see Irish refs in Wales when Irish teams are visiting.

That's why I moan about them more than any others.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:In Ireland we see Welsh refs in Ireland when welsh teams are visiting.

And if you had the same gripes as me I would fully understand. The only difference is, the Welsh regions and the Welsh referees, come under two totally different organisations. In Ireland they do not, they all come under one employer.

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Post by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So it's down to payment and not nationality LD?

For me it is yes. I do not care if the refs are Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Italian or from Timbuktu. For me, I am uneasy with refs, players, coaches, officials, owners all being on the same payroll. The refs must be from a separate organisation than the people they are supposed to be impartially officiating. They also need to be full time professionals, the players are, they teams are, the league is, so why aren't the refs ? Perhaps if we had a team of officials all working to the same protocols, and are fully fit and fully pro we would have a higher standard product.

That's bull furious

You earlier stated you thought the Irish refs were giving preferential treatment to the provinces, not the Welsh, Scottish or Italians but the Irish so obviously it does matter about nationality

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:34 pm

We would all like to see standards raised in the officiating, and more 'neutral' refs employed, although I think more neutral TMO's than refs.

I don't see any need for a salary cap. It simply isn't necessary, and it's unworkable, as proven by T14 and AP. Think of some of the arguments now without a salary cap. Accusations of cheating, etc, would only increase if a salary cap was introduced.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:You just happened to be right but insisted you were without anything backing you up

FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:You earlier stated you thought the Irish refs were giving preferential treatment to the provinces, not the Welsh, Scottish or Italians but the Irish so obviously it does matter about nationality

Again, FFS man. Stop trying to sway from the point I was making. I have said, and ALWAYS said that ALL the refs in our league are crap. I also said I bitch more about the Irish one's because we seem to get them in Wales more than anyone else. I have also said I am uneasy with the fact that they are employed by the same organisation as the players they are supposed to be reffing. Put all that together with crap reffing and it is no wonder you get thinking of bias.

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Post by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You just happened to be right but insisted you were without anything backing you up

FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?

No it wasn't presented, I had no agenda as I said it made more sense for the league to be paying them as was my argument. You didn't know you assumed because the IRFU paid refs travel and match expenses in leagues in Ireland? Beyond that there was nothing supporting your claim until these quotes were presented

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Post by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You earlier stated you thought the Irish refs were giving preferential treatment to the provinces, not the Welsh, Scottish or Italians but the Irish so obviously it does matter about nationality

Again, FFS man. Stop trying to sway from the point I was making. I have said, and ALWAYS said that ALL the refs in our league are crap. I also said I bitch more about the Irish one's because we seem to get them in Wales more than anyone else. I have also said I am uneasy with the fact that they are employed by the same organisation as the players they are supposed to be reffing. Put all that together with crap reffing and it is no wonder you get thinking of bias.

Then why do you seem to focus on the Irish refs? The case is the same across the board

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You earlier stated you thought the Irish refs were giving preferential treatment to the provinces, not the Welsh, Scottish or Italians but the Irish so obviously it does matter about nationality

Again, FFS man. Stop trying to sway from the point I was making. I have said, and ALWAYS said that ALL the refs in our league are crap. I also said I bitch more about the Irish one's because we seem to get them in Wales more than anyone else. I have also said I am uneasy with the fact that they are employed by the same organisation as the players they are supposed to be reffing. Put all that together with crap reffing and it is no wonder you get thinking of bias.

hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:47 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You just happened to be right but insisted you were without anything backing you up

FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?

No it wasn't presented, I had no agenda as I said it made more sense for the league to be paying them as was my argument. You didn't know you assumed because the IRFU paid refs travel and match expenses in leagues in Ireland? Beyond that there was nothing supporting your claim until these quotes were presented

No I knew as a matter of fact.I was right, you were you were wrong, get over it. Can we please now move on ?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.

Because, at the time that is what it felt like, with everything being run from Dublin, with all Irish blazers running the show, and Irish sponsors everywhere and the final always being played in Ireland. Hmmmm... I wonder why I would think like that. Rolling Eyes

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Post by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You just happened to be right but insisted you were without anything backing you up

FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?

No it wasn't presented, I had no agenda as I said it made more sense for the league to be paying them as was my argument. You didn't know you assumed because the IRFU paid refs travel and match expenses in leagues in Ireland? Beyond that there was nothing supporting your claim until these quotes were presented

No I knew as a matter of fact.I was right, you were you were wrong, get over it. Can we please now move on ?

You didn't know as a matter of fact that's the problem

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 1:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You just happened to be right but insisted you were without anything backing you up

FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?

No it wasn't presented, I had no agenda as I said it made more sense for the league to be paying them as was my argument. You didn't know you assumed because the IRFU paid refs travel and match expenses in leagues in Ireland? Beyond that there was nothing supporting your claim until these quotes were presented

No I knew as a matter of fact.I was right, you were you were wrong, get over it. Can we please now move on ?

You didn't know as a matter of fact that's the problem

FFS. LET IT BE.

Fine I guessed, and I was right. Now for next Saturdays lottery numbers......

picard


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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.

Because, at the time that is what it felt like, with everything being run from Dublin, with all Irish blazers running the show, and Irish sponsors everywhere and the final always being played in Ireland. Hmmmm... I wonder why I would think like that. Rolling Eyes

At the time? You did say it was a 'heat of the moment' thing, but then made the same accusation a week or two later.

Why would you think like that? SKY isn't Irish, and neither is Guinness. At a time when the Regions/WRU were doing their able best to put off Broadcasters and sponsors from signing up to Pro12, Guiness and SKY both threw their lot in with us. That's something you should be delighted about, but no, all Pro12 gets, and Guinness, is a slap in the face for daring to have any association with anything perceived to be Irish. Guinness is a great brand name, and having them on board is something that should be celebrated, and due praise given to Pro12 for managing to sign them up, along with SKY.

What's so wrong with having the offices in Ireland? It's a tax incentive that means we, the Pro12, have more money to invest in the brand, and the teams. Tell me what is wrong with that? Are you accusing the Irish of cheating because the Pro12 happens to be operating from Dublin?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.

Because, at the time that is what it felt like, with everything being run from Dublin, with all Irish blazers running the show, and Irish sponsors everywhere and the final always being played in Ireland. Hmmmm... I wonder why I would think like that. Rolling Eyes

At the time? You did say it was a 'heat of the moment' thing, but then made the same accusation a week or two later.

Why would you think like that? SKY isn't Irish, and neither is Guinness. At a time when the Regions/WRU were doing their able best to put off Broadcasters and sponsors from signing up to Pro12, Guiness and SKY both threw their lot in with us. That's something you should be delighted about, but no, all Pro12 gets, and Guinness, is a slap in the face for daring to have any association with anything perceived to be Irish. Guinness is a great brand name, and having them on board is something that should be celebrated, and due praise given to Pro12 for managing to sign them up, along with SKY.

What's so wrong with having the offices in Ireland? It's a tax incentive that means we, the Pro12, have more money to invest in the brand, and the teams. Tell me what is wrong with that? Are you accusing the Irish of cheating because the Pro12 happens to be operating from Dublin?

It was more to do with things adding up. Things all coming together and when you looked at the evidence infront of you it is a fair comment to make. I think that was at the time when Ospreys were top of the league, and the criteria's for the final were changed, and it DID suit the Irish sides. But for what ever reason, these criteria's were never made public. I do remember the Ospreys hierarchy spilling the beans though. That is where 5 star hotels and non use of international stadiums were slipped out.

I am happy with Guinness as a sponsor, it is better than NO sponsor. SKY I could not give two hoots about though, the Welsh games were always on the tele and always will be.

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.

Because, at the time that is what it felt like, with everything being run from Dublin, with all Irish blazers running the show, and Irish sponsors everywhere and the final always being played in Ireland. Hmmmm... I wonder why I would think like that. Rolling Eyes

At the time? You did say it was a 'heat of the moment' thing, but then made the same accusation a week or two later.

Why would you think like that? SKY isn't Irish, and neither is Guinness. At a time when the Regions/WRU were doing their able best to put off Broadcasters and sponsors from signing up to Pro12, Guiness and SKY both threw their lot in with us. That's something you should be delighted about, but no, all Pro12 gets, and Guinness, is a slap in the face for daring to have any association with anything perceived to be Irish. Guinness is a great brand name, and having them on board is something that should be celebrated, and due praise given to Pro12 for managing to sign them up, along with SKY.

What's so wrong with having the offices in Ireland? It's a tax incentive that means we, the Pro12, have more money to invest in the brand, and the teams. Tell me what is wrong with that? Are you accusing the Irish of cheating because the Pro12 happens to be operating from Dublin?

It was more to do with things adding up. Things all coming together and when you looked at the evidence infront of you it is a fair comment to make. I think that was at the time when Ospreys were top of the league, and the criteria's for the final were changed, and it DID suit the Irish sides. But for what ever reason, these criteria's were never made public. I do remember the Ospreys hierarchy spilling the beans though. That is where 5 star hotels and non use of international stadiums were slipped out.

I am happy with Guinness as a sponsor, it is better than NO sponsor. SKY I could not give two hoots about though, the Welsh games were always on the tele and always will be.

The things 'adding up' were proven to be nothing more than your imagination. We have already been through all this, and the fact that the final is being held in Scotland further reinforces this.

The Ospreys hierarchy spilling the beans? Again, this is something that is the product of your imagination.

Nothing slipped out about the 5* Hotel criteria. It was never set in stone, as proven, and most of it was based on assumption.

You're happy with Guinness because it's better than nothing? You are damning in your praise, LD. It's a great brand, and one that many would give their eye teeth for!

You couldn't give two hoots about a big broadcaster coming in and paying £5.5 million to broadcast a few games? You want what is best for Pro12, but you couldn't give a hoot about revenue streams?.........


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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:22 pm

Munchkin wrote:The Ospreys hierarchy spilling the beans? Again, this is something that is the product of your imagination.

No it was not. Ospreys did not bid, they made a stance against the unfairness of it.

Munchkin wrote:Nothing slipped out about the 5* Hotel criteria. It was never set in stone, as proven, and most of it was based on assumption.

Yes it was. I am not going over this old ground again.

If you looked at it from my point of view, with decisions being made half way through the season, and the only grounds at the time to fit the criteria could be found in Ireland, you can guess why people like myself were feeling a bit miffed.

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The Ospreys hierarchy spilling the beans? Again, this is something that is the product of your imagination.

No it was not. Ospreys did not bid, they made a stance against the unfairness of it.

Munchkin wrote:Nothing slipped out about the 5* Hotel criteria. It was never set in stone, as proven, and most of it was based on assumption.

Yes it was. I am not going over this old ground again.

If you looked at it from my point of view, with decisions being made half way through the season, and the only grounds at the time to fit the criteria could be found in Ireland, you can guess why people like myself were feeling a bit miffed.

Again, you are wrong. The Ospreys held off because they didn't know if they could afford to hold a final, and they wanted to see how the final in Ulster did.

Nothing slipped out. That is spin. The 5* Hotel criteria was never set in stone, or even proven. Show me the statement from Ospreys that this slipped out in. Show me where Ospreys claims that they couldn't enter a bid because they don't have the required 5*Hotels?

People like you were getting miffed because you allowed your imagination to get the better of you. It was a conspiracy theory that a few of you embraced as truth.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:36 pm

Munchkin wrote:People like you were getting miffed because you allowed your imagination to get the better of you. It was a conspiracy theory that a few of you embraced as truth.

It was said by the Ospreys chairman at a supporters meeting. A member of this forum attended that meeting, and he told us all what went on. Do yourself a favour, PM wayne and ask him.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:43 pm

The final has always been in Ireland because the provinces have been top of the league - thus EARNING the right to host the final. Since the criterea changed Ireland got the final once and now Scotland has it. What exactly is the problem here?

In terms of the Ospreys bid. The fact it's a soccer stadium is surely a big issue.

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:People like you were getting miffed because you allowed your imagination to get the better of you. It was a conspiracy theory that a few of you embraced as truth.

It was said by the Ospreys chairman at a supporters meeting. A member of this forum attended that meeting, and he told us all what went on. Do yourself a favour, PM wayne and ask him.

Someone said something someone said.... Nope, not buying that. I like wayne, and tend to trust what he says. I can't say I trust chairmen of clubs. In fact, I can say that I really don't trust them much at all.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:I can't say I trust chairmen of clubs. In fact, I can say that I really don't trust them much at all.

Well it's a good thing that there are not any at the provinces then.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:52 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The final has always been in Ireland because the provinces have been top of the league - thus EARNING the right to host the final. Since the criterea changed Ireland got the final once and now Scotland has it. What exactly is the problem here?

That is the issue, the fact that the rules were changed half way through the season when there was no Irish teams at the top of the league.

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 2:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I can't say I trust chairmen of clubs. In fact, I can say that I really don't trust them much at all.

Well it's a good thing that there are not any at the provinces then.

Makes no difference. I have no reason to trust the top guys of the Provinces any more than I do the guys at the Regions. Logan, from Ulster, tends to spin things, and basically waffle.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 02 Nov 2015, 3:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:The final has always been in Ireland because the provinces have been top of the league - thus EARNING the right to host the final. Since the criterea changed Ireland got the final once and now Scotland has it. What exactly is the problem here?

That is the issue, the fact that the rules were changed half way through the season when there was no Irish teams at the top of the league.
Yes something that everyone took issue with but it's gone now and it actually turned out to be a big success with a sold out Ravenhill and Glasgow winning the league. Now Scotland have the final, proving that this criterea is not for the sole benefit of Ireland. Again what exactly is the issue?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 3:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. Should be a really easy solution then.

You would think so wouldn't you.

Eventually I would like to see fully Pro referees all employed by the league, all reading from the same hymn book, and I would also like to see a salary cap brought into the Pro12. I would also like to see a league where there are no limits on the amount of games internationals can play in. But one step at a time hey.

Ha. And on the other side of the fence somewanting to get rid of caps and limit the number of games all players can play. Grass is always greener!

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Post by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 3:42 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:The final has always been in Ireland because the provinces have been top of the league - thus EARNING the right to host the final. Since the criterea changed Ireland got the final once and now Scotland has it. What exactly is the problem here?

That is the issue, the fact that the rules were changed half way through the season when there was no Irish teams at the top of the league.
Yes something that everyone took issue with but it's gone now and it actually turned out to be a big success with a sold out Ravenhill and Glasgow winning the league.  Now Scotland have the final, proving that this criterea is not for the sole benefit of Ireland.  Again what exactly is the issue?

The issue is that some people don't grasp the amount of people needed to sign of on an event of that scale from police and fire service to insurance, not to mention the transport and accommodation around a game but sure some wouldn't have minded the teams staying in the nearest Premier Inn if that's all that was left at a weeks notice

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Post by SecretFly Mon 02 Nov 2015, 3:45 pm

Stop victimising me, you lot!!!! Forcing me to listen to all this junk is close to bullying.

It either stops or I cry this instant!!!!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 4:10 pm

Just read that other thread. I can only assume some of the language coming from the other party was ignored!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 4:52 pm

Anyway, as always I have been sidetracked by our Irish members on here as they want to ignore the original topic about referees. I do not care about the final criteria anymore, that was done to death when it happened.

I am talking about having professional referees being employed by the league not by the same people that employ the players and coaches.

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Post by marty2086 Mon 02 Nov 2015, 5:05 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, as always I have been sidetracked by our Irish members on here as they want to ignore the original topic about referees. I do not care about the final criteria anymore, that was done to death when it happened.

I am talking about having professional referees being employed by the league not by the same people that employ the players and coaches.

LordDowlais wrote:Because, at the time that is what it felt like, with everything being run from Dublin, with all Irish blazers running the show, and Irish sponsors everywhere and the final always being played in Ireland

Who brought that up again?

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Post by Guest Mon 02 Nov 2015, 5:15 pm

Oh behave marty. He doesn't want sidetracked by his sidetracking Very Happy

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Post by SecretFly Mon 02 Nov 2015, 5:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, as always I have been sidetracked by our Irish members on here as they want to ignore the original topic about referees. I do not care about the final criteria anymore, that was done to death when it happened.

I am talking about having professional referees being employed by the league not by the same people that employ the players and coaches.

....And burn their passports so that they won't remember where they come from.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 02 Nov 2015, 6:24 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You earlier stated you thought the Irish refs were giving preferential treatment to the provinces, not the Welsh, Scottish or Italians but the Irish so obviously it does matter about nationality

Again, FFS man. Stop trying to sway from the point I was making. I have said, and ALWAYS said that ALL the refs in our league are crap. I also said I bitch more about the Irish one's because we seem to get them in Wales more than anyone else. I have also said I am uneasy with the fact that they are employed by the same organisation as the players they are supposed to be reffing. Put all that together with crap reffing and it is no wonder you get thinking of bias.

hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.


This is where the side tracking started. Now can we please skip the sarcasm and stay on topic ?

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 02 Nov 2015, 6:43 pm

So where are all these full time refs going to come from? Are we keeping the refs that are already there or is each union going to have to pull a new world class ref out of their behind and pay them a wage all year round?

The Aviva has full time refs and their standard doesn't seem to be any better as shown by AP posters here. https://www.606v2.com/t60987p100-aviva-premiership-round-2. Just scroll down through the comments. The standard of refereeing in the Top14 is beyond poor too, especially if Garces and Poite are considered their best.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 9:54 am

Standard is a funny thing to judge. Some don't think a ref is good because they miss things. Some for their communication or lack of it. Some for 1 big obvious mistakes. Some for a lot of marginal decisions that could go either way. Some because their team can't seem to adapt to a particular style.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 10:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You earlier stated you thought the Irish refs were giving preferential treatment to the provinces, not the Welsh, Scottish or Italians but the Irish so obviously it does matter about nationality

Again, FFS man. Stop trying to sway from the point I was making. I have said, and ALWAYS said that ALL the refs in our league are crap. I also said I bitch more about the Irish one's because we seem to get them in Wales more than anyone else. I have also said I am uneasy with the fact that they are employed by the same organisation as the players they are supposed to be reffing. Put all that together with crap reffing and it is no wonder you get thinking of bias.

hmmm....you did say that the Pro12 is run by the Irish for the Irish, or words to that effect.


This is where the side tracking started. Now can we please skip the sarcasm and stay on topic ?

You mean when you blamed the Irish for everything? I couldn't agree more

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Post by Exiledinborders Tue 03 Nov 2015, 10:23 am

The European authorities could do with introducing a similar review into whether referees from the same league should be allowed in Champions and Challenge Cups.

Currently is allowed for Pro12 teams but not French and English.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 10:35 am

marty2086 wrote:You mean when you blamed the Irish for everything? I couldn't agree more

Seriously, you are getting tiresome now. Grow up, thats the thing with some of you and your mates on here. When you have been shown up, you revert to type.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 10:41 am

So whats your ideal answer LD? All clubs, provinces and unions pay into a central pot and organise a central fitness and training centre? Given you call Owens a crap ref; a guy who's just reffed the world cup, alongside Barnes as a touch judge who a large proportion of Irish fans think is a rubbish ref it's not likely the standard of ref will ever be judged more than rubbish anyway!

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 10:47 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You mean when you blamed the Irish for everything? I couldn't agree more

Seriously, you are getting tiresome now. Grow up, thats the thing with some of you and your mates on here. When you have been shown up, you revert to type.

Shown up by what?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 10:55 am

I think Lord assumes that if the refs are branded Pro12 then most Welsh fans will then forget that the ref, who gave their side a yellow card just as they were cruising to a 3 point victory with 5 minutes to go, is Irish.

Lord lives in a perfect world where a rebranding exercise kills off all the negativity surrounding the birth place of the refs.

The only 'perfect' solution is that if the Welsh Regions took over responsibility for ALL Pro12 refs (the training of and paying for) - as recent history tells us Regions never trust anyone but themselves.


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So whats your ideal answer LD? All clubs, provinces and unions pay into a central pot and organise a central fitness and training centre? Given you call Owens a crap ref; a guy who's just reffed the world cup, alongside Barnes as a touch judge who a large proportion of Irish fans think is a rubbish ref it's not likely the standard of ref will ever be judged more than rubbish anyway!


Well, seeing as you are doing your up most to try and provoke me, I will try and give you an answer. I would like a team of referees, all employed by the league, these referees would all work to the same mandates. They will have all the same protocols and instructions, they should have no affiliation to the teams they officiate and they all sing from the same hymn sheet. I want them to be paid to be full time referees and they should train and swat up on the laws and be able to learn what to look for when teams go on to the field with the sole impetus of trying to cheat to gain an advantage.

Yes I call Owens a crap ref, because he lets things go for the "spirit" of the game. It should not be down to him to keep the "spirit" of the game, it should be down to the players and the coaches, the referee's should do exactly what their title is. Referee. They should not turn a blind eye, to let the game flow, they should punish foul play and law breaking. Nigel Owens lets too many things go. That is why I do not rate him overall as a good ref. He is good at communicating and he does know the rules, but he only applies them when he sees fit.

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:05 am

marty2086 wrote:Shown up by what?

Many, many things.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:12 am

First up LD this is a debating site so don't be surprised if people ask you questions. Far too touchy. Fair enough on the overall plan. Both Barnes and Owens are excellent refs for me but it demonstrates the issues we all have with perception of them.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:15 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Shown up by what?

Many, many things.

Laugh

Another classic from the LD cowpat bible

You happen to be right about one part of your grand Irish conspiracy theory and think everyone else is wrong about everything else

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Post by SecretFly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:22 am

LordDowlais wrote:

The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

So every side plays by the rules or tries to play by the rules except the Irish sides (International + Provincial)?  You keep saying it's not about the 'Irish'ness of the debate and yet with you, and a few others, it always is about the Irishness in Pro12.

Barnes is grand because he misses a few things here and there (nothing serious just forward passes and foul play  Whistle ) but catches Irish sides cheating (extra brownie points).  
Owens, on the other hand, is bad because he misses nothing but lets most of it slide anyway, and because the Irish like him, and because he can't ref a Welsh International game.  (I repeat and will keep repeating - the Welsh are envious that other sides get Owens because they're a side that would have a field day with him as ref)

But it's not about the Irish.... it's about all of us together correcting the wrongs and making them right...... Wink  

Nice.  Cosy.  Shame that the mood never reflects the policy.

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Post by marty2086 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:The Irish do not like Wayne Barnes because he refs the scrums and the breakdowns properly. An area where the Irish sides are notorious for trying to bend the rules to gain an upper hand. Yes, he misses stuff like forward passes and he misses foul play, but at least he penalises what he sees. For me he is a far better ref than Nigel Owens.

He doesn't ref it properly that's the problem, he is inconsistent and the Wales Ireland 6N game earlier this year was a perfect example

He was right in about 95% of his decisions with Irelands breakdown but when Wales committed the same offences more often than not it went unpunished. At the scrum he guesses and that probably works out at being right about 50% of the time

I've seen him ref games in recent times where hes giving penalties for things no one else can see

I'll give him credit he does seem to have got better during the RWC and his decisions seemed better and his communication of that was much clearer but like everyone else he still got some wrong

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 11:31 am

He did very well in that game, also part of my point. The Irish just don't like him. He penalised the Welsh in the same way eventually leading to a yellow. We can all turn a blind eye and pretend we always get the rough end of decisions but stepping back and reflecting I think we all know this isn't the case.

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