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PrO'12 Launch Officiating Review

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 30 Oct 2015, 1:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Guinness Pro12 bosses have revealed they are undertaking a comprehensive officiating review, focusing predominantly on the appointment of the league's assistant referees.

The issue of refereeing in the Pro12 has been a source of constant debate with league chiefs admitting it has been raised as a concern by all 12 clubs in the division.

At the moment, the leagues' referees and touch judges are able to take charge of matches involving teams from the country of their birth, leading to worries over what could be perceived as potential bias.

As a result, Pro12 chiefs are now exploring the possibility of whether it's possible to appoint impartial assistants for each game moving forwards.

“Officiating is something which is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment,” admitted new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi.

“I am in the process of meeting all the clubs and one of the good things about doing that is you get a feel for a lot of the things which are issues throughout the competition.

“It's clear officiating is one of them

In one of a number of controversial refereeing incidents which took place last season, Connacht boss Pat Lam launched an extraordinary attack on Welsh official Leighton Hodges after the Irish side were beaten by Cardiff Blues in March.

Hodges stepped in to advise referee Lloyd Linton to award the Blues a late penalty in the clash in the Welsh capital, the call prolonging the match and allowing the Blues to steal victory in the 88th minute.

It left Lam, who was fined €8,000, to bemoan a decision which he thought was completely wrong, the Samoan boss arguing officials must be held to account with the livelihoods of rugby's players and coaches on the line.

Lam's outburst wasn't the only such incident last season

After Leinster were beaten by the Scarlets in March, then Leinster coach Matt O'Connor came out strongly against the non-use of neutral referees in the Pro12.

O'Connor, who has since been ditched by the Irish giants, argued at the time that he believed the credibility of the tournament was at stake without impartial officials.

Leinster's 23-13 defeat in Llanelli that day saw O'Connor incensed at Welsh assistants Gwyn Morris and Chris Williams for failing to award what he saw as a try for wing Zane Kirchner.

“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.

“It has to be looked at how they're put together across the board because with meritocracy (European qualification), everything is important.”

While these issues are nothing new, the league is yet to see the implementation of neutral officials.

Tonight's derby between the Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons will be officiated by an all Welsh party with the Welsh Rugby Union providing referee Ben Whitehouse, assistants Neil Hennessy and Dan Jones as well as citing commissioner Gwyn Bowden and TMO Derek Bevan.

A look at the other Pro12 games taking place this weekend sees a combination of Irish and Italian officials take charge of Leinster's trip to Treviso and Scottish assistants Lloyd Linton and Mike Adamson on the line for Glasgow's home game with the Ospreys.

“What we are addressing at the moment is the appointments of the assistant referees rather than the main official,” added Anayi, who revealed earlier this week the Pro12 are exploring the possibility of playing games in America.

“The Unions provide the officials and that's important to make sure as we the Pro12 are not paying for the referees.”

Former England referee Ed Morrison, who took charge of 41 Test matches, is the man currently looking into whether the implementation of completely neutral officials is possible in the Pro12.

Morrison, who works closely with the refereeing managers from the division's four countries, is hoping to help the league achieve a new level of refereeing consistency though it remains to be seen whether that can be achieved.

One issue hindering the implementation of neutral referees or assistants is the lack of quality Scottish and Italian officials to choose from.

“We have employed Ed Morrison to review the whole pool of officials and he will report back to me on that in the near future,” Anayi confirmed.


WalesOnline

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Post by Guest Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:What teams are benefiting from the current ko times?

Any team that has the majority of it's home fixtures in the same slot
Any team that can sell season tickets on the back of regular slots
Any team that regularly doesn't have to play Sundays / plays very few games on Sundays

It should be a level playing field. If one or two teams' fixtures are shared over Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays then all teams should have to do the same. You and your compatriots know this but are unable to admit it is an uneven playing field.

Ulster were growing in numbers even with the earlier time slot of 7:05pm. Not a great time to kick off, but we had no choice. It's what the broadcaster wanted.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:36 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Name the teams that currently have that...

Considering all 4 Irish teams had just 2 home games on a Sunday last season, then you'd have to say that they benefit from the fixtures. Not sure if the Scots or Italian teams care with only having 2 teams each - easy to fit in on most weekends.

In contrast, the 4 Welsh teams had 13 home games on a Sunday between them.

But you and your compatriots will dismiss this as nutjob theory that has no bearing on the league.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:37 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Ulster were growing in numbers even with the earlier time slot of 7:05pm. Not a great time to kick off, but we had no choice. It's what the broadcaster wanted.

It creates an uneven playing field fixture wise, as every weekend a team won't be on a Friday and will be on another slot.

But you know this.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:41 pm

Munster would rather play on a Sunday then a Friday though. That is the opposite of benefitting. Not too sure which Leinster would prefer but I've already given you the case where we had to play the same day as Ireland played in the 6nations (Sunday).

This all comes down to tv. Each channel has it's favoured slot. If the Dragons want to play on Friday get them on TG4 Smile


Last edited by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by The Great Aukster Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:41 pm

Obviously there was no more mileage in the conspiracy 'debate' on Officials, so yet again the barrel is scraped for any other old chestnuts needing a bit of roasting?

The TV companies decide what games they want to show and when. They base this on their criteria such as viewing numbers.

BBC NI have obviously looked at their criteria and decided they want to show Ulster mostly on Friday nights (irrespective of whether that suits Ulster or not). BT Sport in return for their investment have sway in the AP fixtures and tailor them to suit their criteria. No doubt the rest do exactly the same.

He who pays the piper calls the tune - such a simple economic concept yet still apparently beyond the comprehension of some.

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Post by Guest Thu 05 Nov 2015, 5:46 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Ulster were growing in numbers even with the earlier time slot of 7:05pm. Not a great time to kick off, but we had no choice. It's what the broadcaster wanted.

It creates an uneven playing field fixture wise, as every weekend a team won't be on a Friday and will be on another slot.

But you know this.

It doesn't create an uneven playing field. Not all teams want a Friday playing slot, and all teams are subject to broadcasters demands. You say Friday, but the day has nothing to do with it. Playing a game on a Friday makes no difference to an away teams home games. Playing on a Friday only means that an away team has to travel on a Friday. Just as Ulster do when playing away to other teams on Friday's. Playing on a Friday does not rob other teams from playing on a Friday. Other teams are not under the dictate of the same broadcaster. It is those broadcasters which determine when other teams play their home games....

The only way your theory could be true is if one Region was given a permanent Friday slot, or any other day, over another Region using the same broadcaster, and on the same home game weekend.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Thu 05 Nov 2015, 6:08 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Name the teams that currently have that...

Considering all 4 Irish teams had just 2 home games on a Sunday last season, then you'd have to say that they benefit from the fixtures. Not sure if the Scots or Italian teams care with only having 2 teams each - easy to fit in on most weekends.

In contrast, the 4 Welsh teams had 13 home games on a Sunday between them.

But you and your compatriots will dismiss this as nutjob theory that has no bearing on the league.

Why do you think the Irish teams would have a problem with playing on Sundays.I can't speak for anyone else but I have no issue with Sunday games,most Irish people are well used to them as that's the the day G.A.A. is usually played at every level.Sunday games are no problem to us.

Reading that back I realise I've said I can't speak for anyone else and then did exactly that but I'm going to leave it like that anyway.

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Post by VinceWLB Thu 05 Nov 2015, 6:15 pm

Friday games are not much better than Sunday games (imo). Saturday games (5-6 PM preferably) are the real deal and the French are doing it right.

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Post by marty2086 Thu 05 Nov 2015, 9:46 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Name the teams that currently have that...

Considering all 4 Irish teams had just 2 home games on a Sunday last season, then you'd have to say that they benefit from the fixtures. Not sure if the Scots or Italian teams care with only having 2 teams each - easy to fit in on most weekends.

In contrast, the 4 Welsh teams had 13 home games on a Sunday between them.

But you and your compatriots will dismiss this as nutjob theory that has no bearing on the league.

Thats because the WELSH broadcaster wants those games on a Sunday, more likely because thats when they get a larger number of WELSH fans watching, maybe you should tell your compatriots to stopping watching and making it an attractive proposition for the broadcaster

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 8:12 am

That's really the problem with tv. You want the money, when they say jump you jump.

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Post by carpet baboon Fri 06 Nov 2015, 8:47 am

Still not sure what game ko times has to do with the review of referees and officials

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:22 am

marty2086 wrote:

Thats because the WELSH broadcaster wants those games on a Sunday, more likely because thats when they get a larger number of WELSH fans watching, maybe you should tell your compatriots to stopping watching and making it an attractive proposition for the broadcaster

Question:

If it were possible, do you think the Pro12 tv deal should be re-negotiated so that all teams have more or elss the same number of Fri, Sat and Sunday kick offs, making it a more level playing field fixture time wise?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:24 am

It would definitely be possible to do that but you'd be looking at less money. As tv money is key to viability in your eyes do you think it should?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would definitely be possible to do that but you'd be looking at less money. As tv money is key to viability in your eyes do you think it should?

Can you explain why there would be less money. I was told yesterday that the league is a growing success, so I would expect there to be tv companies chomping at the bit to exclusively sign this league up for more than the current rights package.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:34 am

If you would want to limit the times that TV companies could show the games so as to not suit their schedules you wouldn't be looking at the same sums of money. Given you feel the league isn't a success why do you feel they would let the league call the tune?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you would want to limit the times that TV companies could show the games so as to not suit their schedules you wouldn't be looking at the same sums of money. Given you feel the league isn't a success why do you feel they would let the league call the tune?

How come that doesn't happen in any other league then? Where they have massive tv deals?

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:50 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Thats because the WELSH broadcaster wants those games on a Sunday, more likely because thats when they get a larger number of WELSH fans watching, maybe you should tell your compatriots to stopping watching and making it an attractive proposition for the broadcaster

Question:

If it were possible, do you think the Pro12 tv deal should be re-negotiated so that all teams have more or elss the same number of Fri, Sat and Sunday kick offs, making it a more level playing field fixture time wise?

picard

Friday night works for Ulster and BBC NI, it doesn't mean it would work for Glasgow or Cardiff. The same goes for Sunday, it doesn't work for Ulster and would actually have political implications in Belfast is Ulster played a home game on a Sunday, which is another thing you fail to grasp, you want every treated the same but they aren't. The Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italians all have different, views, traditions and cultures when it comes to rugby so therefore have different needs to be met

The regions play their games and go on tv when they do because those who know a hell of a lot more about it than you believe that's what the audience want to see and that's when they want to see it.

Can you name one sporting tv deal that has the stipulation you would like to see?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:50 am

What do you mean? I only really know the Aviva BT deal but it's BT who dictate when the games will be played and clubs go along with it. Granted you also have to factor in the need for police, medical attendance and other sports going on but that's normally all sorted. You see similar in football; some clubs don't see a 3pm Saturday kick off anymore.

It mainly sounds as if you're casting envious glances across at other deals but you're only seeing the money and not the rest of the stuff you complain about anyway.

Why do you feel a league which is unviable should be calling the tune and even getting the amount of money you currently do?

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:55 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If you would want to limit the times that TV companies could show the games so as to not suit their schedules you wouldn't be looking at the same sums of money. Given you feel the league isn't a success why do you feel they would let the league call the tune?

How come that doesn't happen in any other league then? Where they have massive tv deals?

In the Pro12 we are talking about what 7 broadcasters showing the games? In other leagues there are usually at most 2 broadcasters, in the NFL(the richest sports league around) the champion Patriots have played 8 games this season in 5 different time slots(winning all of them by the way) I wonder if they complain

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:56 am

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Thats because the WELSH broadcaster wants those games on a Sunday, more likely because thats when they get a larger number of WELSH fans watching, maybe you should tell your compatriots to stopping watching and making it an attractive proposition for the broadcaster

Question:

If it were possible, do you think the Pro12 tv deal should be re-negotiated so that all teams have more or elss the same number of Fri, Sat and Sunday kick offs, making it a more level playing field fixture time wise?

picard

Friday night works for Ulster and BBC NI, it doesn't mean it would work for Glasgow or Cardiff. The same goes for Sunday, it doesn't work for Ulster and would actually have political implications in Belfast is Ulster played a home game on a Sunday, which is another thing you fail to grasp, you want every treated the same but they aren't. The Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italians all have different, views, traditions and cultures when it comes to rugby so therefore have different needs to be met

The regions play their games and go on tv when they do because those who know a hell of a lot more about it than you believe that's what the audience want to see and that's when they want to see it.

Can you name one sporting tv deal that has the stipulation you would like to see?

You failed to answer the simple question.

But,in doing so presented an absolutely perfect case study to answer another question : why the league is unworkable.

Cheers.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:59 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:You failed to answer the simple question.

He often does that.

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 9:59 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Thats because the WELSH broadcaster wants those games on a Sunday, more likely because thats when they get a larger number of WELSH fans watching, maybe you should tell your compatriots to stopping watching and making it an attractive proposition for the broadcaster

Question:

If it were possible, do you think the Pro12 tv deal should be re-negotiated so that all teams have more or elss the same number of Fri, Sat and Sunday kick offs, making it a more level playing field fixture time wise?

picard

Friday night works for Ulster and BBC NI, it doesn't mean it would work for Glasgow or Cardiff. The same goes for Sunday, it doesn't work for Ulster and would actually have political implications in Belfast is Ulster played a home game on a Sunday, which is another thing you fail to grasp, you want every treated the same but they aren't. The Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italians all have different, views, traditions and cultures when it comes to rugby so therefore have different needs to be met

The regions play their games and go on tv when they do because those who know a hell of a lot more about it than you believe that's what the audience want to see and that's when they want to see it.

Can you name one sporting tv deal that has the stipulation you would like to see?

You failed to answer the simple question.

But,in doing so presented an absolutely perfect case study to answer another question : why the league is unworkable.

Cheers.

Apologies have had given a simple answer then made some changes, no I wouldn't

And actually it proves the opposite, the league has found a way to accommodate its many diverse stakeholders the only person it'll never please is you, something Im sure they spend many hours brainstorming over

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:02 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You failed to answer the simple question.

He often does that.

Theres a difference between not answering and giving an answer that some find insufficient, in this case I failed to answer fully in your case I answered

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:03 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:You failed to answer the simple question.

He often does that.

Theres a difference between not answering and giving an answer that some find insufficient, in this case I failed to answer fully in your case I answered

picard

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Post by 2ndtimeround Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:11 am

Chunky, I agree with you that the varying kick off times don't exactly help to build crowd numbers and therefore revenue for the teams, but I think blaming it on Ulster as they have a steadier schedule than all the rest of the teams (Irish Teams included) is bit of a strange conclusion.
Ulster are in the unique position of having a 1 to 1 relationship with their broadcaster and thereby will always be the match chosen to be televised in that time slot, the crowd numbers may of benefited from a regular schedule I agree however they are just as likely to have been boosted by the investment in the Province and the fact they have solidified their position as a top 4 team.
None of the Irish teams have any say in our schedules in Wales at all, that is entirely down to the broadcasting deals we have been left with by Roger Lewis.

The difference in success has nothing to do with kick off times, its all because of the officials. Whistle

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:20 am

2ndtimeround wrote:Chunky, I agree with you that the varying kick off times don't exactly help to build crowd numbers and therefore revenue for the teams, but I think blaming it on Ulster as they have a steadier schedule than all the rest of the teams (Irish Teams included) is bit of a strange conclusion.

I'm not blaming it on Ulster. I'm blaming it on the persons who refuse to acknowledge the disparity of fixture times as a legitimate concern, and a concern that needs addressing. As per the posts above. If a concern isn't a concern to the Irish teams then it isn't a concern apparently. It is a conspiracy theory. They know this, and the refusal to accept it as per the posts on this forum just illustrate how much of a threat it is seen as.

A league where teams can't play on certain days because of some political reason? Why the hell should other teams have to pick up the tab because of some c0ck up made in a coutnry that has nothing to do with them? It's always the same isn't it. Other teams pay the price and the Irish benefit. All give and no take. Just like the finances. We'll take it all and reap the benefits but we'll give you nothing in return - in fact we'll penalise you for your generosity.

Ulster are in the unique position of having a 1 to 1 relationship with their broadcaster and thereby will always be the match chosen to be televised in that time slot:

Indeed, which is a model that is totally unfit for purpose, if you want to encourage the other teams in the league to improve. If you want to hold their heads underwater and keep them at arms length, then it is perfect.

Again, this will not be seen as a legitimate concern as the status quo for the Irish is perfect.

Yours,

A looney conspiracy theorist.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:23 am

So your answer would be to go with 1 broadcaster who's the highest bidder and dictate the kick off times.

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Post by 2ndtimeround Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:25 am

Hmmm.

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:26 am

The Welsh scheduling problem needs to be resolved by the Welsh.

Get round a table with the TV providers - there are only 2 in Wales - and thrash out a workable solution for both parties.

What doesn't make sense is to mess around other teams fixtures just to ensure everyone is equally screwed.

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:30 am

On another point Ulster would still sell more season tickets than any non Irish side regardless of when the games are played and going by this season attendances maybe even more than Leinster or Munster (the three biggest crowds this year have all been in Belfast)

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:30 am

2ndtimeround wrote:Chunky, I agree with you that the varying kick off times don't exactly help to build crowd numbers and therefore revenue for the teams, but I think blaming it on Ulster as they have a steadier schedule than all the rest of the teams (Irish Teams included) is bit of a strange conclusion.
Ulster are in the unique position of having a 1 to 1 relationship with their broadcaster and thereby will always be the match chosen to be televised in that time slot, the crowd numbers may of benefited from a regular schedule I agree however they are just as likely to have been boosted by the investment in the Province and the fact they have solidified their position as a top 4 team.
None of the Irish teams have any say in our schedules in Wales at all, that is entirely down to the broadcasting deals we have been left with by Roger Lewis.

The difference in success has nothing to do with kick off times, its all because of the officials. Whistle

Dragons 12/13 Total Att. 36564 Avg Att 5223 13/14 Total Att. 83689 Avg. Att 8369 14/15 Total 112995 Avg. 10272
Ospreys 12/13 Total Att. 49280 Avg Att 9856 13/14 Total Att. 80889 Avg. Att 8089 14/15 Total 92278 Avg. 8389
Scarlets 12/13 Total Att. 61969 Avg Att 7746 13/14 Total Att. 64963 Avg. Att 7218 14/15 Total 77760 Avg. 7069
Cardiff 12/13 Toal Att. 56388 Avg Att 8055 13/14 Total Att. 103971 Avg. Att 9452 14/15 Total 124024 Avg. 11275

Dragons have nearly doubled their average crowd and tripled how many they get through the turnstiles in 2 years, while Cardiff have doubled the numbers through the turnstiles with a 50% increase in average attendances. So the kick of times aren't affecting them too much, Scarlets and Ospreys got more through the turnstiles in a season but did see their averages drop

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:32 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Ulster are in the unique position of having a 1 to 1 relationship with their broadcaster and thereby will always be the match chosen to be televised in that time slot:

Indeed, which is a model that is totally unfit for purpose, if you want to encourage the other teams in the league to improve. If you want to hold their heads underwater and keep them at arms length, then it is perfect.

Again, this will not be seen as a legitimate concern as the status quo for the Irish is perfect.

Yours,

A looney conspiracy theorist.

Why do you use the Ulster example as being the status quo for the 4 provinces when the other 3 provinces are in the same position as everyone else?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:35 am

marty2086 wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:Chunky, I agree with you that the varying kick off times don't exactly help to build crowd numbers and therefore revenue for the teams, but I think blaming it on Ulster as they have a steadier schedule than all the rest of the teams (Irish Teams included) is bit of a strange conclusion.
Ulster are in the unique position of having a 1 to 1 relationship with their broadcaster and thereby will always be the match chosen to be televised in that time slot, the crowd numbers may of benefited from a regular schedule I agree however they are just as likely to have been boosted by the investment in the Province and the fact they have solidified their position as a top 4 team.
None of the Irish teams have any say in our schedules in Wales at all, that is entirely down to the broadcasting deals we have been left with by Roger Lewis.

The difference in success has nothing to do with kick off times, its all because of the officials. Whistle

Dragons 12/13 Total Att. 36564  Avg Att 5223  13/14 Total Att. 83689   Avg. Att 8369  14/15 Total 112995  Avg. 10272
Ospreys 12/13 Total Att. 49280  Avg Att 9856  13/14 Total Att. 80889   Avg. Att 8089  14/15 Total 92278    Avg. 8389
Scarlets 12/13 Total Att. 61969  Avg Att 7746  13/14 Total Att. 64963   Avg. Att 7218  14/15 Total 77760    Avg. 7069
Cardiff   12/13 Toal Att.  56388  Avg Att 8055  13/14 Total Att. 103971 Avg. Att 9452  14/15 Total 124024  Avg. 11275

Dragons have nearly doubled their average crowd and tripled how many they get through the turnstiles in 2 years, while Cardiff have doubled the numbers through the turnstiles with a 50% increase in average attendances. So the kick of times aren't affecting them too much, Scarlets and Ospreys got more through the turnstiles in a season but did see their averages drop

The double header at the MS somewhat skews those figures. But for our regions to be averaging those figures with the amount of rugby per population going around in Wales is not to shabby.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:36 am

marty2086 wrote:when the other 3 provinces are in the same position as everyone else?

No they aint, they do not play at home on Sundays.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:41 am

So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:47 am

Just checked on the Irish fixtures for Last Year and the first half of this:

Munster - Friday 6, Saturday 9, Sunday 1
Leinster - Friday 9, Saturday 6, Sunday 1
Ulster - Friday 12, Saturday 4, Sunday 0

So the preponderance of Friday games for Ulster is not reflected elsewhere.
Sunday games here would be compromised by the fact they would generated political protests outside the ground
As for Munster and Leinster as already mentioned GAA games tend to be shown then and as such to switch to Sunday would risk losing TV revenue. That is why we have few Sunday games

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

Look, I am keeping out of this fixture debate as it has nothing to do with the title. But all chunky is asking for is a bit of fair play with the fixtures, why are you always trying to go against the grain and ALWAYS argue the point on everything discussed ?

We all have differing opinions on here and I can appreciate that, but for what ever reason, you will find a way to argue the point about the slightest thing. You keep poking the beast. Can you understand that chunky is asking for a bit of rational fair play when teams can play ?

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:51 am

With 5 different political and cultural entities involved (counting Ireland as 2) and workable solution needs to take into account the different sensibilities of those difference.

By extension you are not going to get a one size fits all solution.
Given the power of the various TV providers (7 in total) the only rational solution is for those 5 entities to negotiate a workable solution for their area with the TV companies involved. Anything else is pie in the sky.

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:when the other 3 provinces are in the same position as everyone else?

No they aint, they do not play at home on Sundays.

It wasn't about Sundays, it was about having a fixed time slot which as Geoff explained would be detrimental to everyone but you and Chunky keep your blinkered view and fail to realise that what exists does so to maximise tv audiences and revenue, these are important factors in growing and improving the league but if you two are all for hurting the league then maybe we should do it, after all Chunky wants rid of it regardless of how its doing or what its delivering

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:53 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Just checked on the Irish fixtures for Last Year and the first half of this:

Munster - Friday 6, Saturday 9, Sunday 1
Leinster - Friday 9, Saturday 6, Sunday 1
Ulster - Friday 12, Saturday 4, Sunday 0

So the preponderance of Friday games for Ulster is not reflected elsewhere.
Sunday games here would be compromised by the fact they would generated political protests outside the ground
As for Munster and Leinster as already mentioned GAA games tend to be shown then and as such to switch to Sunday would risk losing TV revenue. That is why we have few Sunday games

So what we are saying, in Ireland the games get showed at times they do not clash with GAA ? If so that would explain why the Irish broadcasters pay so little for them, as they see GAA as their main product. Also, why should politics decide when and where games can be played ?

A genuine question, but why would there be political protests outside the Kingspan stadium if Ulster played on a Sunday ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

Look, I am keeping out of this fixture debate as it has nothing to do with the title. But all chunky is asking for is a bit of fair play with the fixtures, why are you always trying to go against the grain and ALWAYS argue the point on everything discussed ?

We all have differing opinions on here and I can appreciate that, but for what ever reason, you will find a way to argue the point about the slightest thing. You keep poking the beast. Can you understand that chunky is asking for a bit of rational fair play when teams can play ?

Why would I debate? I know crazy isn't it? I'm just laying out what he wants and asking if it's realistic. I'm sorry if you want everyone to agree but if I don't I'll challenge a point. I persoanlly believe the Pro 12 is a success and that tv rights aren't the best way to reflect how good a league is. I also don't believe his wish for a load more money is realsitic or that the league could dictate tv times and expect the same kind of money they get currently. If you don't agree with that argue your point instead of accusing people of straying off topic, ganging up ect just because they don't agree with you.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:56 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:when the other 3 provinces are in the same position as everyone else?

No they aint, they do not play at home on Sundays.

It wasn't about Sundays, it was about having a fixed time slot which as Geoff explained would be detrimental to everyone but you and Chunky keep your blinkered view and fail to realise that what exists does so to maximise tv audiences and revenue, these are important factors in growing and improving the league but if you two are all for hurting the league then maybe we should do it, after all Chunky wants rid of it regardless of how its doing or what its delivering

Listen here pally. I do not give a flying feck when games are played. There are far bigger issues within the Pro12 that you think are two bits of nothing. Rolling Eyes

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 10:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

Look, I am keeping out of this fixture debate as it has nothing to do with the title. But all chunky is asking for is a bit of fair play with the fixtures, why are you always trying to go against the grain and ALWAYS argue the point on everything discussed ?

We all have differing opinions on here and I can appreciate that, but for what ever reason, you will find a way to argue the point about the slightest thing. You keep poking the beast. Can you understand that chunky is asking for a bit of rational fair play when teams can play ?

Why would I debate? I know crazy isn't it? I'm just laying out what he wants and asking if it's realistic. I'm sorry if you want everyone to agree but if I don't I'll challenge a point. I persoanlly believe the Pro 12 is a success and that tv rights aren't the best way to reflect how good a league is. I also don't believe his wish for a load more money is realsitic or that the league could dictate tv times and expect the same kind of money they get currently. If you don't agree with that argue your point instead of accusing people of straying off topic, ganging up ect just because they don't agree with you.

The thing is 7&1/2, the impression I get from you is, that if I said tomorrow is Saturday, then you would think of a million ways to ask me why I thought tomorrow was Saturday.

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

Look, I am keeping out of this fixture debate as it has nothing to do with the title. But all chunky is asking for is a bit of fair play with the fixtures, why are you always trying to go against the grain and ALWAYS argue the point on everything discussed ?

We all have differing opinions on here and I can appreciate that, but for what ever reason, you will find a way to argue the point about the slightest thing. You keep poking the beast. Can you understand that chunky is asking for a bit of rational fair play when teams can play ?

The problem is that Chunkys making assumptions, such as the teams have not agreed to the tv schedules and/or that they have a problem with the schedule so alleging unfair play is merely his opinion and given that Ospreys made the play offs last season, Scarlets are re emerging as a force in the league, Dragons beat Ulster and Leinster at home at the end of last season it doesn't seem to be hurting them as much as he makes out

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:03 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

Look, I am keeping out of this fixture debate as it has nothing to do with the title. But all chunky is asking for is a bit of fair play with the fixtures, why are you always trying to go against the grain and ALWAYS argue the point on everything discussed ?

We all have differing opinions on here and I can appreciate that, but for what ever reason, you will find a way to argue the point about the slightest thing. You keep poking the beast. Can you understand that chunky is asking for a bit of rational fair play when teams can play ?

Why would I debate? I know crazy isn't it? I'm just laying out what he wants and asking if it's realistic. I'm sorry if you want everyone to agree but if I don't I'll challenge a point. I persoanlly believe the Pro 12 is a success and that tv rights aren't the best way to reflect how good a league is. I also don't believe his wish for a load more money is realsitic or that the league could dictate tv times and expect the same kind of money they get currently. If you don't agree with that argue your point instead of accusing people of straying off topic, ganging up ect just because they don't agree with you.

The thing is 7&1/2, the impression I get from you is, that if I said tomorrow is Saturday, then you would think of a million ways to ask me why I thought tomorrow was Saturday.

Stop going on impressions but what I'm saying. Ignoring the fact you think I'm arguing because of who Chunky is rather than what he's saying look at what's written. You may well think his argument is correct but you'll see I'm arguing the points he's made and to me they are logical and make sense.

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Post by marty2086 Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:04 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Just checked on the Irish fixtures for Last Year and the first half of this:

Munster - Friday 6, Saturday 9, Sunday 1
Leinster - Friday 9, Saturday 6, Sunday 1
Ulster - Friday 12, Saturday 4, Sunday 0

So the preponderance of Friday games for Ulster is not reflected elsewhere.
Sunday games here would be compromised by the fact they would generated political protests outside the ground
As for Munster and Leinster as already mentioned GAA games tend to be shown then and as such to switch to Sunday would risk losing TV revenue. That is why we have few Sunday games

So what we are saying, in Ireland the games get showed at times they do not clash with GAA ? If so that would explain why the Irish broadcasters pay so little for them, as they see GAA as their main product. Also, why should politics decide when and where games can be played ?

A genuine question, but why would there be political protests outside the Kingspan stadium if Ulster played on a Sunday ?

GAA is broadcast mostly during the summer on tv but many club games take place on Sundays across the island meaning less eyes on tvs

As for Sundays in Ulster you may want to read this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26315890

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:05 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the league can only be viable if it's one broadcaster with kick off times decided by the league, a equal mix of teams kicking off at the various kick off times and for a lot more money. Realistic or not?

Look, I am keeping out of this fixture debate as it has nothing to do with the title. But all chunky is asking for is a bit of fair play with the fixtures, why are you always trying to go against the grain and ALWAYS argue the point on everything discussed ?

We all have differing opinions on here and I can appreciate that, but for what ever reason, you will find a way to argue the point about the slightest thing. You keep poking the beast. Can you understand that chunky is asking for a bit of rational fair play when teams can play ?

The problem is that Chunkys making assumptions, such as the teams have not agreed to the tv schedules and/or that they have a problem with the schedule so alleging unfair play is merely his opinion and given that Ospreys made the play offs last season, Scarlets are re emerging as a force in the league, Dragons beat Ulster and Leinster at home at the end of last season it doesn't seem to be hurting them as much as he makes out

It might not be hurting the teams, but the fans get a friggin raw deal. Trust me I go to a lot of Sunday games, and I like a pint as well, so that means I need a designated driver, that is usually the misses, until my oldest daughter passes her test, the thing is the public transport in Wales on a Sunday is non existent. My wife and daughters will usually go for a Costa coffee and a look around the shops when I am at the game.

It looks as though to me chunky wants parity across the board when it come to Pro12 fixtures, and that is not much to ask is it ?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:07 am

marty2086 wrote:

As for Sundays in Ulster you may want to read this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26315890

A mucked up state of affairs which is impinging on the ability of other countries / teams ability to make the best of what they have.

Shocking state of affairs when religious beliefs in another country have a direct impact on another's sports fixtures. Absolutely ludicrous.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:08 am

Saturdays are Saturdays because Provinces choose to play that day. The definition of Saturday is simple.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 06 Nov 2015, 11:08 am

LordDowlais wrote:

It looks as though to me chunky wants parity across the board when it come to Pro12 fixtures, and that is not much to ask is it ?

That would mean that certain Irish teams would have to give up their designated slot. And we can't have that can we?

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