Pakistan vs England; 3rd Test - Sunday 1st November to Thursday 5th

First topic message reminder :

England Team:

Cook, Ali, Bell, root, Taylor, Stokes, Bairstow, Rashid, Broad, TBC, Anderson


Pakistan Team:

TBC

Taylor and Bairstow came together when England may have been on the brink of a collapse but battled through to the close steering England into far calmer waters. Not only that but it could have cemented their place in the side for the next series.

Msp - England's day for me. We're almost guaranteed a lead of some sort and, even batting last and without Stokes, a lead of over 50 will still be valuable in a low scoring game. England's run rate certainly wasn't what we've become accustomed to but I wouldn't condemn them too much for that given the quality of the bowling plus the conditions and match situation. A higher run rate would have put us in a stronger position now but only if we had held on to our wickets - the two often don't go together. Also, there's still three full days to go and less chance of rain than at Old Trafford!

PS and Edit: hadn't seen Craig's posts when I posted above and referred to a lead of 50 runs. Great (or predictable) minds etc!

So pleased for Jimmy Taylor. Been on the bandwagon since for the last 5 years and massively pleased that he has finally got a chance and grasped it with both hands. Now go on and make it a big one!

JDizzle wrote:So pleased for Jimmy Taylor. Been on the bandwagon since for the last 5 years and massively pleased that he has finally got a chance and grasped it with both hands. Now go on and make it a big one!

Yeah, pleased for him - and you, JD. You've faithfully stood by yer man.

As regards the subject of my own man love, I've only spoken to Jason Roy once.   It was a few years back at close of play of a Surrey v Leics match and he told me then what a good player the opposition's Jimmy Taylor was!

Solid display from England today. Excellent from Bell, eventually out to a great delivery. Taylor looked on a different level to everyone else though - hope he can go on to make a century. A good first session tomorrow will move England into a very strong position.

Great start to the day from Pakistan. England players do seem to have an annoying habit of failing to look the same player when not out overnight!

I just can't work out Jonny Bairstow at all. Just can't. In the same innings he'll look like Viv Richards one minute, then a stumbling drunk the next.

Slightly disappointed , though not too surprised , to come in and find both overnight bats out early on.
Patel looks to be playing well though , and he and Rashid may be able to cash in on the useful spade work done yesterday by the top six.

I think some of the criticism , of Bell and Bairstow , on this thread , might be a little unfair : I wonder if some of us are rather underestimating the difficulties of playing against high class spin bowling on this pitch ? Only two players in the match have passed fifty so far - and not many past thirty. None have been able to score with any kind of fluency. I think grinding forties may well be worth their weight in gold as this match progresses.

Disappointing dismissal for Rashid on the stroke of lunch...little bit too passive their against the off spinner with the interval looming...very good catch.

Still Patel has played very well and with fifty runs on and hopes the last couple of wickets might add a few I don't think that was a disastrous session for England ; though certainly very much Pakistan's two hours.

Pakistan edged it but at the moment England in the box seat and a 50+ lead will be more than handy especially when you consider the dread when Pakistan won the toss and batted.

KP_fan wrote:

.Eng needed to get Pak out cheap and they did so...
pak is about 50 short of a par first inning score.

Now Eng need to score 300 to be at par...given that they have to chase.

Well bowled anderson on this pitch....he had a very few new ball overs but made them count in gold......super performer

3 spinners is one too many.....fast in the air Wood would have gotten reverse on a dry rough pitch.
Patel though he took wickets is primarily in.....driven by Eng wanting more depth in batting.
As I said above......Now Eng need to score 300 to be at par...given that they have to chase.
Fear is.....a 200-250ish crumble...as I read pitch was turning on D1

so the game is standing at Par now....if Pak was to dismiss Eng's last two wickets by 300.

That Pak got Taylor and Bairstow quickly this morning tilted the game in their favour and now Patel / rashid's rear-guard has brought parity again

and the more Eng stretch themselves beyond 300...the more their nose is in front....and they can do that provided Patel and Broad play some strokes.......hanging in their won't get them materially forward.
25 of 20 ball from Broad and anotehr 20 off 20 balls from Patel would be game changing here.....given how balanced the game stands as of now.

Rashid scooped up before lunch. England with 2 wickets remaining (I assume Stokes won't be batting?). Shame for Taylor and Bairstow that they couldn't go on and score big. England could really do with Broad hanging around with Patel for another 50-70 runs.

Jonny Bairstow made a bit of a habit of getting decent scores for Yorkshire before he was eventually able to convert some into 100s. He'll probably not be afforded similar time for England though.

Re Bell, I suspect he's being kept in the side as other than Cook, there is a lack of experience elsewhere in the batting order. The rest of the top 7 are all young/newish and most are waiting to find their feet still. He's walking a fine line though.

Really good contest, true Test cricket. What a frustration it would be if England went on to lose narrowly, playing effectively 10 against 11. But it's up to England's 10 fit players to press home their current narrow advantage.

Well played Samit Patel. I saw him bat for Notts v Surrey in last season's RLODC Semi and he looked a really improved, class player - much more than a one day biffer.

Its very frustrating that the two overnight batsmen got out early but I don't think its a unique problem for England, we seem to get players out in the reverse situation.

The wicket before lunch was unfortunate though, if they could just have seen out that over Pakistan would be starting to sweat a little, now they will fancy closing things out quickly

Patel gone. Will Stokes bat?

alfie wrote:Slightly disappointed , though not too surprised , to come in and find both overnight bats out early on.
Patel looks to be playing well though , and he and Rashid may be able to cash in on the useful spade work done yesterday by the top six.

I think some of the criticism , of Bell and Bairstow , on this thread , might be a little unfair : I wonder if some of us are rather underestimating the difficulties of playing against high class spin bowling on this pitch ?  Only two players in the match have passed fifty so far - and not many past thirty.  None have been able to score with any kind of fluency.  I think grinding forties may well be worth their weight in gold as this match progresses.

Hi Alfie - I referred last night to Bairstow's then 30 odd being a very valuable innings in all the conditions and circumstances but emphasised it was important for him to get to at least 50. Otherwise, and I suspect this will be the case, all that will be considered of this innings before long is that he got out without going on - that will be harsh and unfair although it is down to the player that he has little credit in the bank with the watching public. Similar with Bell in recent years.

Patel now gone for 42. Still only two players having reached 50 in this Test emphasising the difficulties.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Patel gone. Will Stokes bat?

He's padded up , apparently.

Stokes coming in at eleven ...

England innings folding rapidly : but it looks as if this pitch is getting very tricky to bat on - that lead may yet be handy.

9 down and Stokes coming in. Over to the Corporal for memories of watching on the radio Cowdrey bat with a broken arm.

Over 300 now...so Stokes has already done something for the cause

Yeah, thought so - Wahab on to bowl at Stokes ....

Tough lad , this Stokes. Gutsy stuff , this...could have even had a single then !

Well this is impressive - ten priceless runs added so far. And he even nicked the strike there!

guildfordbat wrote:Yeah, thought so - Wahab on to bowl at Stokes ....

Not sure about that : reckon he might find the spinner harder to play...and in fact Malik it is who does for him.

306 ...maybe twenty odd less than I was hoping for but a 72 run lead may still prove significant on this.

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Yeah, thought so - Wahab on to bowl at Stokes ....

Not sure about that : reckon he might find the spinner harder to play...and in fact Malik it is who does for him.

306 ...maybe twenty odd less than I was hoping for but a 72 run lead may still prove significant on this.

Alfie - just thought, pitch a couple up aggressively and then one on the stumps. Anyway, bit of a tame over from Wahab and then, as you say, Malik does for him.

Anyway, totally agree with your bottom line. Atherton, as often, made a very valid comment that a lead of 72 equates to one session's worth of batting.

Important for Rashid to show his worth now. He's been an expensive bystander in every first innings of this series.

Indeed could be an important innings for Rashid - if the pace bowlers can break through early Pakistan may get a little "tight" with their one nil lead and being behind on first innings : might be made to order for the wrist spinner ?

Think England need wickets with the new ball.

Think the relatively snail pace batting from both sides means that while all three results are plausible, if there will be a victor, it's a little bit more likely to be England. That said, if Pakistan can bat till stumps day four, England will almost certainly be up against it. For England, need to chase less than 200. For Pakistan, anything over 300. Anything in between and we have a riveting game of hands. I don't think (but could be wrong, Pakistan are quite unpredictable) that they'll be too flustered at being 70 in arrears. They've chased down 360 on a wearing track this year and just two years ago chased 300 in 60 overs on a worn enough track, so they know they can bat big on 3rd/4th innings pitches

72 run lead on this wicket and with the slow outfield probably the equivalent of about 100 in a more normal match. Certainly England in the better position, but far from dominant. A big session or two coming up - knock 3 or 4 Pakistan batsmen over for the 72 run lead and we're in the box seat, but they get to 72 for the loss of no more than 1 and the game is right back in the balance.

Definitely need our spinners to do a better job this innings, especially with only 2 fit seamers.

Can't really disagree with that , raf

Except that Pakistan did rather panic in the first match in this series when all they needed was to bat safely for another hour or so...

Think a lot depends on how many they lose before they wipe off that deficit.

Umpire's call for me on that. Wasn't convinced there was a definite gap between bat and ball.

Anyway, Raf, waiting for you to tell me how Patel's 23 overs would have been made up on day one if we had gone in without a sixth bowler ....

Patel on early...

Thought Jimmy was going to knock one of those two over then - very good spell ; but they've resisted well. Introducing the spinner at one end may be a good move.

Alfie - what did you think of the ''caught behind'' decision being overturned? The onfield umpire (Oxenford?) seemed surprised. I would have stuck with him - maybe couldn't detect a definite touch on replay but equally couldn't rule it out.

To be honest , guildford , I thought he missed it after looking at all the slo- mo replys.
Initially looked like an edge , but the shot from behind suggested it passed the bat before the edge intersected its path.
Umpire did look surprised ; but the batsman called for the review instantly , so it was probably the right decision.

Bit of a concern the way runs are flowing from the spinners. Think we needed that usual pace bowlers' initial wicket ...and the lack of a third seam bowler seems to have forced Cook to go with spin at both ends rather early.

Hope Rashid can do something ; but I suspect this is too early for him...

guildfordbat wrote:Anyway, Raf, waiting for you to tell me how Patel's 23 overs would have been made up on day one if we had gone in without a sixth bowler ....

To be fair, my five bowler strategy didn't envision an injured Stokes

guildfordbat wrote:Anyway, Raf, waiting for you to tell me how Patel's 23 overs would have been made up on day one if we had gone in without a sixth bowler ....

yeah, I made room for any possible/inevitable Pakistani collapse by saying "This is Pakistan"

Oh dear - no real alarms so far and the lead almost gone. I think we are going to lose this one, needed a 150 lead really!

Cheers, Alfie. I'm probably simply wrong and didn't view all the slo-mos closely enough. The England players didn't make much of a fuss and the Sky pundits thought the overturn was correct - mind you, that included Botham and I tend to disagree with him as an automatic starting point these days!

Yeah, concerning that the runs are starting to flow from the spinners. You've probably seen me comment here about a Sky cricket programme - The Verdict. It's shown in the UK each evening of the Test and reviews that day's play. Willis is the lead pundit or ''judge''. He plays it up to presenter Colville and the cameras but, blimey, he doesn't half lay into our slow bowlers - dread to think what might be said tonight if things don't change!

As an aside, I like Sohail who's been on the programme recently. Colville wanted a two minute discussion and decision round the table the other night as to whether Anderson and Broad were England's greatest ever new ball pair. Sohail simply replied there there were so many factors and variables involved that Colville needed to devote a whole programme to the subject if he wanted it considered properly!

''They are more batsmen than bowlers'' - Botham on Sky talking about England's spinners in this Test. That's a stupid comment, even for him, to bracket Rashid and the reason for his selection like that.

so at the end of first innings the game is at par.

Now Eng need to keep their chase to less that 200....and they would be favorites.
above 250 and Pak are clear favorites.

in between it's a grey zone.

that Pak are 58-0....doesn't mean they cannot be dismissed for 250...it's that type of a pitch

VTR wrote:Oh dear - no real alarms so far and the lead almost gone. I think we are going to lose this one, needed a 150 lead really!

Wouldn't say game over yet : but it is a worry that lead vanished so fast. England spinners just don't look up to it I'm afraid ; and the loss of Stokes has handicapped the pace options.

Need a breakthrough quickly , or Pakistan might start to get away.

At 87/0 it appears Hafeez and Ali have put Pakistan on top in this game ; though a couple of quick wickets might change that.

Trouble is only the pace bowlers are really putting them under sustained pressure. Rashid has been more economical than usual ; but he isn't forcing them into any silly shots - they are picking off enough singles without any risk.

I fear England are going to be faced with a pretty tough fourth innings target. Going to need something special from one or two players.

Well they say one can often bring two...

Gift of a run out followed quickly by Anderson trapping the new bat with an indiipper.

Still need to follow this up : but the ball is clearly reversing now - can Jimmy grab another one now ? And Broad should be good for another spell.

Would love to see one of the spinners get into a good controlling spell ; but these two are a bit too good against any but top class spin.

Well that's the problem, the spinners are all very leaky. Pakistan know that they can see off Anderson and Broad then cash in easily. England need to somehow restrict the lead to 150, even that will be a very tough chase

VTR wrote:Well that's the problem, the spinners are all very leaky. Pakistan know that they can see off Anderson and Broad then cash in easily. England need to somehow restrict the lead to 150, even that will be a very tough chase

Can't see them getting them out for less than a 200 lead now. Too much on Anderson and Broad as the spinners just aren't coming to the party in this match.

Pitch doesn't seem to have changed that much since the first day ; so a chase of that order might not be impossible. But the risk now is that the likes of Younus and Misbah could take the target well beyond that...

Jimmy will be about done for nw so it will probably have to be Patel again . He'll need to bowl better than earlier today.

Alfie - don't you think it'll be Rashid? He should be more of a second innings dangerman.

guildfordbat wrote:Alfie - don't you think it'll be Rashid? He should be more of a second innings dangerman.

I fear Rashid needs a different situation to shine : if Pakistan were four or five down , say , and feeling the pressure. In the present circumstances I think he'd be relying on one of them getting a rush of blood...

It appears England are so desperate to grab another one tonight that they're going to bowl Jimmy into the ground. May prove fatal tomorrow ; but if they don't break this stand it may be all lost anyway ?

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Alfie - don't you think it'll be Rashid? He should be more of a second innings dangerman.

I fear Rashid needs a different situation to shine : if Pakistan were four or five down , say , and feeling the pressure. In the present circumstances I think he'd be relying on one of them getting a rush of blood...

It appears England are so desperate to grab another one tonight that they're going to bowl Jimmy into the ground.  May prove fatal tomorrow ; but if they don't break this stand it may be all lost anyway ?

Alfie - you're (again) probably right but it does make Rashid increasingly look like a luxury item.

I'm also worried about the effects of this spell (9 overs so far, I think) on Jimmy for tomorrow.

I am anything but a pessimist. But I am tending to the view that Hafeez might just have won this match for Pakistan with this innings. He has really played well

Been a few twists and turns already though - things might change tomorrow morning. Will be Pakistan sleeping easier tonight , unless some drama occurs in the remaining overs...

Whilst fully acknowledging there would have been no guarantee of such a return, I'll just quickly flag how valuable a typical Tredwell analysis of 20-5-45-1 would have been at this point.

Now where's my tin helmet?