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World class players - top 3 in the world in each position

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Post by king_carlos Mon 02 Nov 2015, 5:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

I know this is completely subjective but I thought it would be interesting to get peoples views on who they believe the top players world wide are following the RWC. 'World class' is now widely considered as the top 3 players in the world in each position.

For me these are the players world wide who I would most want in my starting XV if I was picking a side to play for my mortgage.

1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili
2.Coles, Bismark, Best
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith

Honorable mentions:

Shota Horie - A hooker who can hook, what a revelation it was!
Stephen Moore
Agustin Creevy
Sekope Kepu
Davit Zirkashvili - A rock in the Georgia scrum
Jonny Gray
Leone Nakarawa
Michael Leitch
Francois Louw
Sam Warburton - I haven't been a huge fan in the past as I felt he lacked consistency. This RWC he was excellent though.
Talupe Faletau
Amanaki Mafi - A wrecking ball in attack.
Greg Laidlaw - Another player who I haven't rated too highly in the past that really impressed me.
Beauden Barrett
Sonny Bill Williams
Jonathan Joseph
DTH Van Der Merwe
Santiago Cordero - A wonderful broken play runner.
Ayumu Gorumara - Yet another surprise package in that impressive Japan side.

Injury considerations - guys who played in the RWC but suffered injury during I have considered as they had a chance to prove recently prove themselves prior to injury. Those out long term I have not considered however. The only player who I would have picked but didn't due to this was Cruden.

As for recent retirements, I have chosen to include the likes of POC, Carter, Nonu and Conrad Smith who have just retired from Internationals.

Some positions were far easier than others for me with open side and number 8 for instance having three clear standouts. Blind side I will admit to bodging a bit but I rate O'Brien and Gorgodze very highly so have fitted them in there. Hooker was also a position of strength with 6 players standing out for me.

Scrum half was a real struggle with Aaron Smith way ahead of the competition IMO. Genia has found form once again to claim a place there and Fourie Du Preez pulled the strings well enough to take the other spot.

Loose head I also struggled with. Ayerza and Sio were standouts but after that I didn't feel many threw their hands up. McGrath was really impressive for Ireland but didn't start - I thought Healy ahead of him was solid but nothing like his swashbuckling best. In the end I plumped for Mikheil Nariashvili as I felt he was the rock (along with Kirkashvili) that an ever impressive Georgia scrum was built around.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:27 pm

eirebilly wrote:For the 10's. Only Foley's shaky kicking puts him behind Carter but for the rest of his play, he was better than Carter in my opinion. Biggar also played very well.


Which one is the World class player? the one with 1600 International points and a World Cup and several International Player of the year awards next to his name or the other ones?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:28 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Also I never watched the S15 but please, Hardie better than Warbs because of some good S15 form? Give us a break...

I think your argument begins to look a bit thin after that comment Mick.

Yes Pooly we know you don't rate a single Welsh player, you've made it quite obvious in recent weeks. Yes Pooly, we also know that within a heartbeat you would steal someone like Hardie and have him in your team over Robshaw, who wouldn't? But like I said, give us a break. This guy who's just burst onto the scene isn't better than Warburton at all, certainly not based on this season. Unless you didn't watch the 6 Nations? It's a better comp than S15.

I'm just going to go out and say it. Hardie is not in the top 5 in the world in his position, quite laughable actually.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:30 pm

BamBam wrote:Well no, Biggar wouldn't be in a top 3 of world class 10s based on the say, the last 2 years of rugby. But he most definitely is in based on just the world cup


So what's the criteria then? I took into account the last year of rugby where-as the OP is seemingly based on the world cup.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:33 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Also I never watched the S15 but please, Hardie better than Warbs because of some good S15 form? Give us a break...

I think your argument begins to look a bit thin after that comment Mick.

Yes Pooly we know you don't rate a single Welsh player, you've made it quite obvious in recent weeks. Yes Pooly, we also know that within a heartbeat you would steal someone like Hardie and have him in your team over Robshaw, who wouldn't? But like I said, give us a break. This guy who's just burst onto the scene isn't better than Warburton at all, certainly not based on this season. Unless you didn't watch the 6 Nations? It's a better comp than S15.

I'm just going to go out and say it. Hardie is not in the top 5 in the world in his position, quite laughable actually.

You're ability to comment on a player yet hardly seeing him play is the only laughable thing here. "Burst onto the scene" he's been one of the 7's in S15 for the last 2 years.

If you have little knowledge on a subject (i.e rugby) perhaps not best to post on a rugby forum Wink

P.s. I rate many of the Welsh players.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:35 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Also this is based on the world cup, so Warburton has to be in the top 3 open-sides, likely at the expense of Hooper. Or Pocock if you shift him to 8 where he played for most of the tournament.

I'd have Pocock, Hooper, McCaw, Louw and Hardie as the top 5 opensides of the tournament. Warburton probably fits the world class label better as has done it over more time than Hardie, but I think the Scottish Kiwi had a better tournament

It's no surprise that you don't want a Welsh open-side in the top 3. Hardie, pffft. We'll see just how good he is come February, but as it stands I think the only two 7's in the world who could be considered better than Warburton is McCaw and Pocock (on their day). Pocock was probably the best by some distance, despite the fact he played at No.8...

I'd also drop Genia. Don't see what he's done that is so good. You could put in Laidlaw or Davies instead.

Why February? Anyone with an ounce of rugby knowledge would have seen how good he was during the WC (and S15 as it happens). But in a less dismissive/annoying way, I'd also say Warburton is up there.

Laidlaw isn't even in the top 5/6 in the world.

Because that is when the 6 Nations begins. Yeah I guess Hardie would look amazing against the likes of Japan, etc, - granted he and the other Kiwi open-side you have playing for you also played well against Australia - but when it comes to the 6 Nations you'll often be playing teams better than most of your world cup opponents. Also I never watched the S15 but please, Hardie better than Warbs because of some good S15 form? Give us a break...

If you say so, but looking at the OP this is clearly based on the world cup. I felt Laidlaw and Davies were better than Genia who somehow features in the top 3.

Also if it isn't based on the world cup then I feel Warburton would still be in based on his previous 6 Nations form, as would Biggar (sorry English I know that bugs you).

Nice pathetic dig. You did notice that Wales were one of the top teams to have 'outsiders' playing for them didn't you? Hardie and Cowan were far better against Oz than Warburton was. You also don't watch S15 much then which is of a higher standard than our RCC.

I also think you're being highly disrespectful to Japan and USA. Japan I would say are on a par with Fiji based on WC form who, incidently, won 3 matches - 1 of which was against SA. USA are also much improved and better than Uruguay.

Anyway, I have more interesting things to be getting on with than arguing with a little Welshman with a complete disregard and appreciation of talented rugby players outside his own country.

Good luck to you.

I forgot his name sorry, but now you know the one I speak of. I'm not getting into that debate and I guess it's what you count as an 'outsider' - I count just two for Wales - nice dig Very Happy. No I don't I already said that. The S15 although a really high intensity is not a higher standard than playing against Wales, Eng, Ire and France in the 6 Nations.

I'm not though, look at the rankings before and after the world cup. Look at their win ratio's. Japan's was great by their standard but I still think all the other 6 Nations teams could convincingly beat them like Scotland did.

Little Welshman? And to think I got called the WUM. I just have a different opinion to you and mine is that I disagree with a whole two selections in the OP. Wow! But yeah, ta-ra.

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Post by BamBam Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:37 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Well no, Biggar wouldn't be in a top 3 of world class 10s based on the say, the last 2 years of rugby. But he most definitely is in based on just the world cup


So what's the criteria then? I took into account the last year of rugby where-as the OP is seemingly based on the world cup.

I don't know what king_carlos' original criteria was.

I just said:

1. During the RWC, Hardie performed better than Warburton, as did Pocock/Hooper/Louw/McCaw. You took exception to this, even though I said that over a longer term, Warburton is clearly more worthy of the world class label

2. That Biggar is not world class (in the same way that Warbs is) just because he performed brilliantly during the tournament. After the last 6N, would anyone have had him above Sexton?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:40 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Also I never watched the S15 but please, Hardie better than Warbs because of some good S15 form? Give us a break...

I think your argument begins to look a bit thin after that comment Mick.

Yes Pooly we know you don't rate a single Welsh player, you've made it quite obvious in recent weeks. Yes Pooly, we also know that within a heartbeat you would steal someone like Hardie and have him in your team over Robshaw, who wouldn't? But like I said, give us a break. This guy who's just burst onto the scene isn't better than Warburton at all, certainly not based on this season. Unless you didn't watch the 6 Nations? It's a better comp than S15.

I'm just going to go out and say it. Hardie is not in the top 5 in the world in his position, quite laughable actually.

You're ability to comment on a player yet hardly seeing him play is the only laughable thing here. "Burst onto the scene" he's been one of the 7's in S15 for the last 2 years.

If you have little knowledge on a subject (i.e rugby) perhaps not best to post on a rugby forum Wink

P.s. I rate many of the Welsh players.

Bursting onto the scene at international level, not playing for his country because he wasn't good enough I assume.... It was quite obvious what I was referring to. And you're still ignoring my point with regards to S15. Hardie won't be the first player to have been talked up after doing so little, which is why I said we might see just how good he is come the 6 Nations (if he's selected, that's not a given). Edinburgh have a great signing there so I'll likely get to see a lot more of him than previously.

Why have you insinuated that I'm a WUM that's derailed the thread?

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Post by rodders Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:41 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:For the 10's. Only Foley's shaky kicking puts him behind Carter but for the rest of his play, he was better than Carter in my opinion. Biggar also played very well.


Which one is the World class player? the one with 1600 International points and a World Cup and several International Player of the year awards next to his name or the other ones?

Fair point but what's he ever done in the 6N?
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:43 pm

I'd argue that the S15 is currently at a higher level than the 6N judging by the SH dominance.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:43 pm

BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Well no, Biggar wouldn't be in a top 3 of world class 10s based on the say, the last 2 years of rugby. But he most definitely is in based on just the world cup


So what's the criteria then? I took into account the last year of rugby where-as the OP is seemingly based on the world cup.

I don't know what king_carlos' original criteria was.

I just said:

1. During the RWC, Hardie performed better than Warburton, as did Pocock/Hooper/Louw/McCaw. You took exception to this, even though I said that over a longer term, Warburton is clearly more worthy of the world class label

2. That Biggar is not world class (in the same way that Warbs is) just because he performed brilliantly during the tournament. After the last 6N, would anyone have had him above Sexton?

1. Yes I did take exception to that, as I believe Warburton was better at the world cup. Apparently that's offensive, it also makes you a WUM when you answer queries over the selection.

2. Sexton was better, but there wasn't much between him and Sexton IMO. But during the world cup Biggar was better and more influential, so will have just edged it past Sexton for me.

WUM away.

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Post by TJ Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:46 pm

Tattie - Japan are on par with Scotland and england if you look at the rankings!

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:46 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd argue that the S15 is currently at a higher level than the 6N judging by the SH dominance.

I doubt that many would disagree. I also doubt the top S15 teams could beat the top 4 in the 6N. Just my reckoning, of course. I guess we'll never know for sure because when international teams play the S15 franchises they'll always be shy of their top players.

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Post by TJ Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:49 pm

Of the Scots worth considering - Laidlaw one of 3 nominees for world player of the year. Ickle Jonny who was immense in the WC and Bennett although competition is feirce at both Lock and 13. Honorable mention to Nel whos addition to the scotland team meant they pretty much dominated every side they came up against in the scrum.

Warburton good player tho is is was not near the top 3 in his position in the WC - too many great players he is in competition with


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Post by Pal Joey Tue 03 Nov 2015, 12:58 pm

Sorry Sgt Pooly - I somehow thought you meant Brad Barritt.

Yeah, I'd definitely have Beauden Barrett and Cruden over Foley. Hands down.
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Alun Wynn Jones?

Brown is worthy of a mention for FB. But he's hated by anyone whos not English

That's plain simply not true - I have a number of friends here in Cornwall who claim to be English and they hate Mike Brown

thumbsup

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:03 pm

rodders wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:For the 10's. Only Foley's shaky kicking puts him behind Carter but for the rest of his play, he was better than Carter in my opinion. Biggar also played very well.


Which one is the World class player? the one with 1600 International points and a World Cup and several International Player of the year awards next to his name or the other ones?

Fair point but what's he ever done in the 6N?

Laugh

Very good.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:03 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Alun Wynn Jones?

Brown is worthy of a mention for FB. But he's hated by anyone whos not English

That's plain simply not true - I have a number of friends here in Cornwall who claim to be English and they hate Mike Brown

thumbsup

They hate anyone outside Cornwall Ruby so that's not really saying much.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:04 pm

TJ wrote:Tattie - Japan are on par with Scotland and england if you look at the rankings!

Yes but I don't.

I'm trying to remember the last 6N side to lose to Japan........ Headscratch


Last edited by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:05 pm

Some of these comments are hilarious, does anyone ever watch club or international rugby without just swallowing what the pundits say?

S15 teams would beat top 4 international teams?

Barret and Cruden over Foley? I personally think Foley and Biggar have been the 10's of the RWC.

Are these considerations for the RWC alone?

Nakarawa was the best lock at the tournament by a mile, followed by maybe Jonny Grey, Whitelock, AWJ and then De Jager (But only against minnows).

Mafi for Japan outmuscled the SA pack, and was the catalyst for everything Japan did, the gae v Scotland turned after he went off injured, as he was dominant in every aspect and killing the Scottish defence.

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:08 pm

Conrad Smith???

Fofana???

Jesus, it's like you only want to select based on performance over the last 5 years and want to disregard this season totally.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

But surely you need tojudge over at least the last 2 years though?

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:13 pm

1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili
2.Coles, Bismark, Best
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith

Those in bold I can't really argue with, those outside of bold are a mixture of past performances, or performances above their perceived ability, which doesn't necesarily mean theyre best in world.

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:But surely you need tojudge over at least the last 2 years though?

So we would still consder Watsons pre tournament blistering form? Halfpenny? Liam Williams? Rhys Webb?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:16 pm

Careful now, Fanster. You haven't said how great John Hardie is - that makes you a WUM little Welshman with complete disregard for amazing players outside of his/her own country Wink.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:17 pm

If you're judging world class yes of course you should in my eyes. I don't think watson's world class but judge any set of players over a short enough time period and they could be judged as such. Needs to be on ability rather than form for me.

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:18 pm

Davit Zirkashvili
Jonny Gray
Leone Nakarawa
Talupe Faletau
Amanaki Mafi

All these guys have been stand out for me, and one of if not the best in their position at the RWC.

When considering the best in the world I would ask if they would make the best team in the world stronger (NZ), theres a question mark over replacing both kiwi second rows, but either named above would step in for 1 comfortbly.

Also Read being up there is probably the only reason both Mafi and Flatau wouldn't start, however Mafi at 6 would work.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:19 pm

Fanster wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But surely you need tojudge over at least the last 2 years though?

So we would still consder Watsons pre tournament blistering form? Halfpenny? Liam Williams? Rhys Webb?

Personally I think it's better to just cover the last year. If you were to cover the last 5 years though, guys like McCaw and Carter have without a doubt been at the top - and maybe some others. Some choices are clear cut, others are not. Now considering Warburton was also one of the top open-sides at the 2011 world cup... Whistle

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Post by eirebilly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:20 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:For the 10's. Only Foley's shaky kicking puts him behind Carter but for the rest of his play, he was better than Carter in my opinion. Biggar also played very well.


Which one is the World class player? the one with 1600 International points and a World Cup and several International Player of the year awards next to his name or the other ones?

I am talking current form, over the last 1-2 years. Not through their careers as its too early to compare Foley with Carter as we don't know just what Foley will do in the future.

Is the clear enough for you to understand?
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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you're judging world class yes of course you should in my eyes. I don't think watson's world class but judge any set of players over a short enough time period and they could be judged as such. Needs to be on ability rather than form for me.

But Ben Smiths form a few years ago put him into the kiwi team, and he's managed to stay there despite some really poor performances, including some real stinkers at this RWC.

Form is an extension of ability, lots of players explode onto the scene, and are then worked out a bit, the combination of ability, mixed with what they were able to produce on the biggest stage rates them IMO.

Watson is electric, and is up there with the best wing performances i've seen this season (Consistently).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:24 pm

And yet isn't world class. May was better than him in the warm ups, so is he world class? No. It has to be an extension otherwise you can be world class one week and not the next.

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:26 pm

eirebilly wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
eirebilly wrote:For the 10's. Only Foley's shaky kicking puts him behind Carter but for the rest of his play, he was better than Carter in my opinion. Biggar also played very well.


Which one is the World class player? the one with 1600 International points and a World Cup and several International Player of the year awards next to his name or the other ones?

I am talking current form, over the last 1-2 years. Not through their careers as its too early to compare Foley with Carter as we don't know just what Foley will do in the future.

Is the clear enough for you to understand?

auckland that is hilarious...

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yet isn't world class. May was better than him in the warm ups, so is he world class? No. It has to be an extension otherwise you can be world class one week and not the next.

May has never been good, and certainly wasn't Englands best wing option going in, he's just your biggest wing option, and because he's erattic is perceived as unpredictable, not a fan of May at all. Watson on the other hand has so many great attacking attributes he is scary good, even at this early stage.

Would I select Watson in a World XV to play Mars 15? Maybe not, but his name would definately be on my shortlist right now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:31 pm

You may not be a May fan but his form into the world cup was excellent. And your point about Watson having the attributes is closer to how I would end up judging a world class player (rather than world class form).

Doesn't seem to be mentioned much here but huget would walk into that bracket before either.

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You may not be a May fan but his form into the world cup was excellent. And your point about Watson having the attributes is closer to how I would end up judging a world class player (rather than world class form).

Doesn't seem to be mentioned much here but huget would walk into that bracket before either.

I agree on Huget, one of Frances players who is genuinely up there, but world class player is not allowed world class form?

Do you think Watson is an average player playing well above himself?

May wasn't in great form, he beat a few people, but his ball retention rate has always been poor, he is weak defencively, and positionally looks like he's learning to play on the wing. Being erratic isn't a great attriubute to have in an England team like this

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Post by George Carlin Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:42 pm

Very good attempt, Carlos.

I guess that if we're talking about who has shown they are top 3 at the time of writing this, then for the sake of adding to the discussion, I might have:

- Stephen Moore ahead of Rory Best
- Francois Louw or Scott Fardy instead of Sean O'Brien
- Leone Nakarawa or Luke Romano instead of Alun Wynn Jones
- Sonny Bill Williams or Jonathan Joseph instead of either Bennett or Kriel

You can argue any of these a number of different ways though.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:42 pm

I think Watson needs to prove he can continue that form before he is judged world class. We'll agree to disagree about May's form then but he only got in the side as he was exceptional and managed to oust Nowell who was playing very well.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:43 pm

I thought Moore had a great tournament as did AWJ and Warburton, I was also extremely impressed by Sanchez at 10 for the Pumas.
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Post by RubyGuby Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:46 pm

In my opinion what defines a world class player apart from the obvious is when they play a low par game they still make a positive contribution to the team. The likes of May, Watson, North etc. just go completely missing or become a liability when they have an off day. When everything is going well for them they are "world class" but genuine world class is about a level of consistency where your baseline is a positive factor in your performance.

thumbsup

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:48 pm

George Carlin wrote:Very good attempt, Carlos.

I guess that if we're talking about who has shown they are top 3 at the time of writing this, then for the sake of adding to the discussion, I might have:

- Stephen Moore ahead of Rory Best
- Francois Louw or Scott Fardy instead of Sean O'Brien
- Leone Nakarawa or Luke Romano instead of Alun Wynn Jones
- Sonny Bill Williams or Jonathan Joseph instead of either Bennett or Kriel

You can argue any of these a number of different ways though.

Moore and Louw weren't great, Fardy had a good game or 2, but not consistently great. Best and SOB were consistently better IMO. Nakarawa i'd switch for most locks, as I would Jonny Grey.

Sonny Bill? thats ridiculous

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Post by king_carlos Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:49 pm

Well this escalated quickly...

Having lit the fire I haven't been back online to really respond since the very start. So to start my defence I'd like to call to the stand, Private Baldrick.

I am not basing this solely on the RWC no, however it was a large influence on my selections given simply that it is the RWC! The best players stand-up to be counted when under most pressure hence I believe that influential performances at a World Cup should be a strong indicator of a player being world class.

The half backs were always going to be controversial IMO. With Cruden injured the running at fly half is fairly tight. Carter showed his enduring class during the tournament but sitting on the bench Barrett didn't get to display his game management of the course of a pressure match. Biggar and Foley on the other hand got the chance to do this and delivered.

Scrum half on the other hand was difficult not because lots were close together but because Aaron Smith was way out ahead. Genia I knew would raise eyebrows due to his inconsistency up until the RWC but he is a player of immense ability who showed what he is capable of when needed.

Other selection were simply 'marmite' players. Alun Wyn Jones has long divided opinion. Some view him as a plodder who doesn't utilise his weight and is fortunate to have got the caps he has. I personally believe he is one of the best locks in the tight in world rugby which remains an extremely valuable addition to any side.

Similarly Ashley-Cooper divides opinion with some feeling he is a jack of all trades master of none type player who lacks the pace to be a world class back. On the other hand many, myself included, feel he is one of the smartest backline players going who reads the game as well as anyone out there. In this world cup he displayed the value of his experience and instinct with a massive performance against Wales and a hatrick in the semi-final.

As said in the OP it is always a purely subjective topic and often creates divisive discussion. I have put it out a few times on these boards anyway as I feel it's also an interesting topic with some good discussion - to the mods I apologise for that.

If you disagree then welcome to post your own list instead tho! Hug

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:52 pm

A post like this will always split opinion but it is just opinions and we all have different ones.
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 1:55 pm

Fardy was leagues better than the likes of SOB. Not sure Picamoles was all that great either.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:04 pm

The Loaded Dog wrote:Sorry Sgt Pooly - I somehow thought you meant Brad Barritt.

Yeah, I'd definitely have Beauden Barrett and Cruden over Foley. Hands down.

Brad Barritt!!! Lol

Beuden Barrett is arguably the 2nd best FH about, crazy options for the AB's. Foley had a great WC but I just think he can have shockers. Bigger is solid but just not on par with these guys. Her certainly make top 5.

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Post by Fanster Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili - Zirakishvilli
2.Coles, Bismark, Best - ???
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks - ???
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones - Nakarawa Grey
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock - Etzabeth
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze - Fardy
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles - Falatau Mafi

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez - Tanaka Davies
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana - Mitchell
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana - Henshaw De Allande
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff - Wyles DTH
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith - Nanai Williams Hogg


Based on RWC...

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Post by BamBam Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Well no, Biggar wouldn't be in a top 3 of world class 10s based on the say, the last 2 years of rugby. But he most definitely is in based on just the world cup


So what's the criteria then? I took into account the last year of rugby where-as the OP is seemingly based on the world cup.

I don't know what king_carlos' original criteria was.

I just said:

1. During the RWC, Hardie performed better than Warburton, as did Pocock/Hooper/Louw/McCaw. You took exception to this, even though I said that over a longer term, Warburton is clearly more worthy of the world class label

2. That Biggar is not world class (in the same way that Warbs is) just because he performed brilliantly during the tournament. After the last 6N, would anyone have had him above Sexton?

1. Yes I did take exception to that, as I believe Warburton was better at the world cup. Apparently that's offensive, it also makes you a WUM when you answer queries over the selection.

2. Sexton was better, but there wasn't much between him and Sexton IMO. But during the world cup Biggar was better and more influential, so will have just edged it past Sexton for me.

WUM away.

So disagreeing with Wales players being the best around is wumming

Laugh Laugh

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:27 pm

Fanster wrote:1.Ayerza, Sio, Nariashvili  - Zirakishvilli
2.Coles, Bismark, Best - ???
3.Herrera, Nel, O Franks    - ???
4.Retallick, Etzebeth, Wyn Jones - Nakarawa Grey
5.De Jager, O'Connell, Whitelock - Etzabeth
6.Kaino, O'Brien, Gorgodze - Fardy
7.Pocock, McCaw, Hooper
8.Vermuelen, Read, Picamoles - Falatau Mafi

9.Smith, Genia, Du Preez - Tanaka Davies
10.Carter, Biggar, Foley

11.Savea, Nadolo, Habana - Mitchell
12.Nonu, Giteau, Fofana -  Henshaw De Allande
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph
14.Ashley-Cooper, Milner-Skudder, Imhoff - Wyles DTH
15.Folau, Le Roux, Ben Smith - Nanai Williams Hogg


Based on RWC...

I'd still have Sanchez in among it at 10 and personally I was disappointed with Nadolo, Folau and Ben Smith and would have Lydiate over SOB
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:48 pm

BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Well no, Biggar wouldn't be in a top 3 of world class 10s based on the say, the last 2 years of rugby. But he most definitely is in based on just the world cup


So what's the criteria then? I took into account the last year of rugby where-as the OP is seemingly based on the world cup.

I don't know what king_carlos' original criteria was.

I just said:

1. During the RWC, Hardie performed better than Warburton, as did Pocock/Hooper/Louw/McCaw. You took exception to this, even though I said that over a longer term, Warburton is clearly more worthy of the world class label

2. That Biggar is not world class (in the same way that Warbs is) just because he performed brilliantly during the tournament. After the last 6N, would anyone have had him above Sexton?

1. Yes I did take exception to that, as I believe Warburton was better at the world cup. Apparently that's offensive, it also makes you a WUM when you answer queries over the selection.

2. Sexton was better, but there wasn't much between him and Sexton IMO. But during the world cup Biggar was better and more influential, so will have just edged it past Sexton for me.

WUM away.

So disagreeing with Wales players being the best around is wumming

Laugh Laugh

No, you misunderstand me. It was me who got called the WUm remember, for believing that Warburton was ahead of Hardie. WUM WUM!

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:55 pm

Some things to factor in here are the "players" that the world class individuals have around them - I wonder how people would perceive Biggar for example if he had the likes of Nonu, Smith or SWB outside him with an arm chair ride to orchestrate things. The same goes for others who play a significant role in making others look world class on occasion - AA-C is one of the most intelligent backs out there and a natural footballer, I think people sometimes miss what this guy does in defence and offense even when he's not directly involved. Great rugby brain.

thumbsup

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Post by BamBam Tue 03 Nov 2015, 2:57 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Well no, Biggar wouldn't be in a top 3 of world class 10s based on the say, the last 2 years of rugby. But he most definitely is in based on just the world cup


So what's the criteria then? I took into account the last year of rugby where-as the OP is seemingly based on the world cup.

I don't know what king_carlos' original criteria was.

I just said:

1. During the RWC, Hardie performed better than Warburton, as did Pocock/Hooper/Louw/McCaw. You took exception to this, even though I said that over a longer term, Warburton is clearly more worthy of the world class label

2. That Biggar is not world class (in the same way that Warbs is) just because he performed brilliantly during the tournament. After the last 6N, would anyone have had him above Sexton?

1. Yes I did take exception to that, as I believe Warburton was better at the world cup. Apparently that's offensive, it also makes you a WUM when you answer queries over the selection.

2. Sexton was better, but there wasn't much between him and Sexton IMO. But during the world cup Biggar was better and more influential, so will have just edged it past Sexton for me.

WUM away.

So disagreeing with Wales players being the best around is wumming

Laugh Laugh

No, you misunderstand me. It was me who got called the WUm remember, for believing that Warburton was ahead of Hardie. WUM WUM!

Ah I see. Well I didn't call you a WUM, just disagreed Hug

Although you did suggest that I just didn't want a Welsh openside in the top 3 Whistle

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Post by king_carlos Tue 03 Nov 2015, 4:01 pm

Fanster wrote:
13.Conrad Smith, Bennett, Kriel - Joseph

Is that Joseph replacing Conrad Smith there Fanster?

If so it's a bold call! Motivated by his retirement or did you feel his performances weren't as strong at the World Cup?

Personally I thought he was once again excellent pulling the strings for some fantastic backs around him.

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