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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

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Hood83
2ndtimeround
WELL-PAST-IT
formerly known as Sam
Welshmushroom
Chunky Norwich
ScarletSpiderman
Scottrf
VinceWLB
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mikey_dragon
LondonTiger
yappysnap
George Carlin
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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by George Carlin Wed 04 Nov 2015, 6:38 am

Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Saints10                  Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Scarle10
Northampton Saints v Scarlets
Saturday 14 November 2015
KO 19:45
Franklin's Gardens, Northampton

Live on BT Sport / beIN Sports

Referee Romain Poite (France)
Touch Judge 1 Tual Trainini (France)
Touch Judge 2 Pierre Brousset (France)
Fourth Official Jonathan Healy (England)
TMO Eric Gonthier (France)
Citing Commissioner Murray Whyte (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

7 Played 7
4 Wins 3
3 Losses 4
0 Draws 0
148 Points 128

B. Recent Form

7 November 2014
Scarlets 7 - 24 Northampton Saints

14 January 2012
Scarlets 17 - 29 Northampton Saints  

18 November 2011
Northampton Saints 23 - 28 Scarlets

C. Teams

Northampton Saints
Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Louise10
[tbc]

Scarlets
Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Emma_j11
[tbc]


Last edited by George Carlin on Wed 11 Nov 2015, 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by yappysnap Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:04 am

Saints have had a rocky start to the season, they've looked one dimensional and not as effective up front as they used to be.

Still Scarlets will have to well beat their pack if they're to have a chance.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:20 am

Scarlets in form, Saints not.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:37 am

Scarlets didn't really look all that great when they brought back their internationals. They'll also be facing a strong Leinster in Dublin before this so are likely to lose their unbeaten start to the season. They'll miss Liam Williams as well, he is the type of player that would have been influential in this game.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 04 Nov 2015, 9:54 am

I wonder what odds I would get on DTH scoring the first try in this fixture? I might have a flutter on that one myself.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 04 Nov 2015, 10:17 am

If the Scarlets can get anything from the Leinster game this weekend then they will go there full of confidence.
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Post by VinceWLB Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:13 pm

Just seen on the Scarlets forum Samson Lee is out of the game..

You can bet your house had Wales been playing England this week he would be playing. The result is Scarlets are now probably going to lose this game because Wales rushed him back.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:36 pm

This game fascinates me.

Saints are bang out of form and Scarlets started the season so well. Yet in the back of my mind I remember what happened to Ospreys at the Gardens last season and just how clueless and spineless Scarlets were at Welford Road.

Still expect a welsh win though.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 10 Nov 2015, 11:29 pm

"they've looked one dimensional and not as effective up front as they used to be."

Our set piece (especially the scrum) was magnificent against Sarries, yet we broke the line about once, the one time George North had some space. Woefully out of ideas, and kicking the ball away at every opportunity, and of course we aren't a match for them in the territory game. Even Foden who normally would run it every time. It's depressing.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 11 Nov 2015, 5:57 am

Official preview:
PREVIEW: Evans looks to build on positive Scarlets start

Scarlets prop Rob Evans wants the Welsh region to build on their impressive start to the Guinness Pro 12 season when they face Northampton in their European Rugby Champions Cup opener.

Wayne Pivac's men have won six of their first seven games to put themselves firmly in the play-off mix, but their Champions Cup Pool 3 assignment is brutally tough.

The draw sees the region face former wing George North at Franklin's Gardens, as well as serving up testing examinations against big-spending Racing Metro and reigning Pro 12 champions Glasgow. But Evans hopes the three-time semi-finalists can carry their domestic form onto the continental stage.

"I think we have made a statement about our ambitions as a team with the way we have started the season," said the Wales loosehead.

"I want us to be a top four team in the Pro 12 and a competitive side in Europe and I want people to respect us as well, in the way we respect other teams.

"We know what we can do, we need to bring it because this is a huge competition for us. We need to carry on from our good start, we cannot let standards slip, we take it one challenge at a time and go from there."

Evans, 23, was part of Warren Gatland's pre-World Cup training squad, and took part in the punishing summer training camps in Switzerland and Qatar.

While the front-rower from Haverfordwest, who won his first cap against Ireland in the Six Nations earlier this year, was disappointed not to make the final cut, he admits he feels in the best shape of his life and is keen to reap the benefits of his hard graft.

"I wouldn't say I enjoyed those camps, because they were absolutely savage," he said. "Every day out there was very, very hard. "But I am feeling very fit. Once I got my match fitness during the first couple of games I have felt great, it was a worthwhile experience.

"I've been getting my hands on the ball and getting involved in the loose which I have enjoyed. We had a good start, beating several of the Irish sides, now we have to step it up again."
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:15 am

VinceWLB wrote:Just seen on the Scarlets forum Samson Lee is out of the game..

You can bet your house had Wales been playing England this week he would be playing. The result is Scarlets are now probably going to lose this game because Wales rushed him back.

Given he played against Ulster on 23 Oct don't you think maybe it was the Scarlets who rushed him back after the WC?
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Nov 2015, 9:10 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Just seen on the Scarlets forum Samson Lee is out of the game..

You can bet your house had Wales been playing England this week he would be playing. The result is Scarlets are now probably going to lose this game because Wales rushed him back.

Given he played against Ulster on 23 Oct don't you think maybe it was the Scarlets who rushed him back after the WC?

I think it is a bit of both to be honest. He was rushed back for Wales (as were all the injured lads) when maybe he shouldn't have been. However it was a RWC, and that is something special for a player. Who knows in 4 years time he may not be in form or favour and may miss out. A RWC is something that he rightly had to grasp when the opportunity came around.

The Scarlets did bring him back for the Ulster game where he had his head stuffed up his bum all game. Pete Edwards came on and improved our scrum. So it was pretty obvious for the sake of the season that Samson needed to be rested and brought back when he is ready. The fact he is on a NDC means that he will need to be rested at some point anyway.

But I do not believe we will lose because of the lack of Samson, as Pete the meat has been a real star this year. And even if Samson were available I think I would have him on the bench (much like I would bench Ken Owens, and start Emyr) because of form.
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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:22 pm

SS - I would also start with Phillips. Lately Owens can't throw, and always looks better coming off the bench anyway. I don't being without Lee will be a big factor. It's the other absentees (both Williams') and lack of a high calibre fly-half which will be most costly. At 10 I would favour Jones over Shingler.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:43 pm

I think we may have to start with young Dan at fly half because I think Jock Shingler may not be back from injury (even if he is he may not have trained as much).

I'm not sure Ken is doing anything wrong as such, but he is dealing with different calls and different player from before. He seems to be getting better with each outing. However Emyr is sharp and on form. It's a bit like when Ken started one season (can't think where Smiler was, Lions tour '09 maybe), and he was really sharp, when Smiler came back he looked ropey in comparison
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 11:08 am

Looking like a much changed front row. Emyr Phillips Pete Edwards involved. Paulino starts. Steve Shingler starts at 10. Dan Jones and Ken Owens injured. King on bench, Owen and Parkes in midfield, Aled Thomas at 15.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 13 Nov 2015, 12:01 pm

15 Aled Thomas,
14 Michael Tagicakibau,
13 Gareth Owen,
12 Hadleigh Parkes,
11 DTH van der Merwe,
10 Steven Shingler,
9 Gareth Davies,

1 Rob Evans,
2 Emyr Phillips,
3 Peter Edwards,
4 Jake Ball,
5 Maselino Paulino,
6 Aaron Shingler,
7 James Davies,
8 John Barclay [c]

Replacements: Kirby Myhill, Phil John, Will Taylor, Tom Price, Lewis Rawlins, Aled Davies, Regan King, Tom Williams

Players unavailable for selection: Morgan Allen (bicep), Will Boyde (knee/foot), Steff Hughes (knee), Rhodri Jones (pec), Josh Macleod (ankle), Jack Payne (ankle), Rory Pitman (bicep), Liam Williams (foot), Scott Williams (knee), Samson Lee, Rhodri Williams, Dan Jones (all rested), Ken Owens (toe)


Guessing that Rawlins was dropped so we could go for bulky locks, giving us more of a chance in the scrum without sacrificing our breakdown ability.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 12:10 pm

It's all about the weather forecast (and the pack we're facing). Regan, Rawlings Dan Jones, Aled, Price. All set aside for some bulk in an attritional game.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 Nov 2015, 12:14 pm

Interesting, Myler on the bench. And no Hartley. Anyone have news on Calum Clark?

15 Ben FODEN
14 Ken PISI
13 George PISI
12 Luther BURRELL
11 George NORTH
10 JJ HANRAHAN
9 Lee DICKSON (capt)
1 Alex WALLER
2 Mikey HAYWOOD
3 Kieran BROOKES
4 James CRAIG
5 Christian DAY
6 Jamie GIBSON
7 Tom WOOD
8 Sam DICKINSON

16 Matti WILLIAMS
17 Ethan WALLER
18 Paul HILL
19 Michael PATERSON
20 Teimana HARRISON
21 Kahn FOTUALI’I
22 Stephen MYLER
23 Ahsee TUALA

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 12:15 pm

Ouch. Will be a tough day for the Scarlets I think.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 13 Nov 2015, 12:17 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:It's all about the weather forecast (and the pack we're facing). Regan, Rawlings Dan Jones, Aled, Price. All set aside for some bulk in an attritional game.

Or Regan, Rawlings Dan Jones, Aled, Price, all wrapped in cotton wool to keep the fresh for the league Whistle
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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 Nov 2015, 12:17 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Ouch. Will be a tough day for the Scarlets I think.
I wouldn't be so sure. We are one dimensional at the minute. Hopeful JJ can bring something new and actually get our backs in the game though.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri 13 Nov 2015, 4:42 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Ouch. Will be a tough day for the Scarlets I think.

As a neutral I wouldn't say that. After seeing this Northampton selection I actually make Scarlets slight favourites. Looks like Scarlets have gone big in the forwards and the backs to set up a defensive wall. I'm not doubting Northampton's ability and if its a dry day they have the skills to go out and win this game. But in wet conditions Scarlets have picked big units in the backs and forwards. Plus is Davies and Barclay they have some of the best stealers around at the moment so I imagine they will probably turn Saints over at the breakdown a fair bit as well. Not sure what the injury list for Northampton was like but I really think this may be a bad selection by Mallinder given the likely heavy/raining conditions they will be facing.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 13 Nov 2015, 4:53 pm

I don't think there are any Saints forwards unselected that would have given them any more physicality. As far as I'm aware Clark and Fisher are injured and there was no replacement for Manoa signed. I presume Hartley is injured otherwise I doubt he'd be missing this.

Saints have had a poor start to the season so don't expect any fireworks from them. They'll take any win at this stage.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 13 Nov 2015, 5:24 pm

With Shingler considered first choice fly-half/kicker then Scarlets have already lost this game (probably).

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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 Nov 2015, 5:31 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I don't think there are any Saints forwards unselected that would have given them any more physicality. As far as I'm aware Clark and Fisher are injured and there was no replacement for Manoa signed. I presume Hartley is injured otherwise I doubt he'd be missing this.

Saints have had a poor start to the season so don't expect any fireworks from them. They'll take any win at this stage.
Quite a few not playing though:

Corbesiero, Hartley, Lawes, Clark, Fisher, Matfield.

Hartley I believe is out to concussion.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 5:37 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:With Shingler considered first choice fly-half/kicker then Scarlets have already lost this game (probably).

Who would you have selected in his place?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 13 Nov 2015, 5:39 pm

They aren't unselected by choice though. I was thinking there's no obviously fit and raring to go that are being rested. Corbs, Fisher, Clark and Hartley are injured whilst Lawes and Matfield require rest post RWC. There's not much choice for Mallinder and it's largely the same pack as last week.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 5:43 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:They aren't unselected by choice though. I was thinking there's no obviously fit and raring to go that are being rested. Corbs, Fisher, Clark and Hartley are injured whilst Lawes and Matfield require rest post RWC. There's not much choice for Mallinder and it's largely the same pack as last week.

When did Lawes last play? He's surely had a rest now?

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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 Nov 2015, 5:47 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:They aren't unselected by choice though. I was thinking there's no obviously fit and raring to go that are being rested. Corbs, Fisher, Clark and Hartley are injured whilst Lawes and Matfield require rest post RWC. There's not much choice for Mallinder and it's largely the same pack as last week.

When did Lawes last play? He's surely had a rest now?
It's an injury not WC rest. Hurt his knee against Sale.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 6:13 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:They aren't unselected by choice though. I was thinking there's no obviously fit and raring to go that are being rested. Corbs, Fisher, Clark and Hartley are injured whilst Lawes and Matfield require rest post RWC. There's not much choice for Mallinder and it's largely the same pack as last week.

When did Lawes last play? He's surely had a rest now?
It's an injury not WC rest. Hurt his knee against Sale.

Cheers.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 13 Nov 2015, 6:24 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:With Shingler considered first choice fly-half/kicker then Scarlets have already lost this game (probably).

Who would you have selected in his place?

Dan Jones.

Scarlets had plenty of time to recruit cover, I'm unsure as to why they didn't.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri 13 Nov 2015, 6:45 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:With Shingler considered first choice fly-half/kicker then Scarlets have already lost this game (probably).

Who would you have selected in his place?

Dan Jones.

Scarlets had plenty of time to recruit cover, I'm unsure as to why they didn't.

Dan Jones' defence isn't as good yet. He's only young. It's going to be a game for big carriers. We'll need defence and organisation. Shingler is totally the right pick with aled covering.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 13 Nov 2015, 8:01 pm

What about game management and points, should those be sacrificed for the sake of a little bit extra defence?

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Post by Scottrf Fri 13 Nov 2015, 9:01 pm

There isn't much to defend against at the moment! Crying or Very sad

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 14 Nov 2015, 9:56 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Ouch. Will be a tough day for the Scarlets I think.

As a neutral I wouldn't say that.  After seeing this Northampton selection I actually make Scarlets slight favourites.  Looks like Scarlets have gone big in the forwards and the backs to set up a defensive wall.  I'm not doubting Northampton's ability and if its a dry day they have the skills to go out and win this game.  But in wet conditions Scarlets have picked big units in the backs and forwards.  Plus is Davies and Barclay they have some of the best stealers around at the moment so I imagine they will probably turn Saints over at the breakdown a fair bit as well.  Not sure what the injury list for Northampton was like but I really think this may be a bad selection by Mallinder given the likely heavy/raining conditions they will be facing.

Got that one a bit wrong Mushroom, murdered in the front row, even with Saints replacements and Saints got at least parity at the breakdown.

Watch out for Harrison and Hill, when they came on they made a big impression, especially at the breakdown.
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Post by 2ndtimeround Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:10 pm

Oh well, cant argue with a LBP at Franklin Gardens.
LBP probably going to be crucial in this group.

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Post by VinceWLB Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:With Shingler considered first choice fly-half/kicker then Scarlets have already lost this game (probably).

Turned out to be true.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:39 pm

Waller, Brooks and Wood were immense tonight.

Actually played with some fire and involved the backs. Not a great performance but some promising signs.

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Post by 2ndtimeround Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:45 pm

Scottrf wrote:Waller, Brooks and Wood were immense tonight.

Actually played with some fire and involved the backs. Not a great performance but some promising signs.

Really surprised you missed Foden off that list as for me he was the most likely option to Woods as MOM.

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Post by Guest Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:50 pm

Didn't get to see all the game, but Jake Ball looked immense in the bit I did see.

That's a good result for Scarlets. Not so good for Saints. The bonus point loss for Scarlets could prove vital in getting out of the group, and Saints might have to travel to Scarlets needing the win. Not easy.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:59 pm

Munchkin wrote:Jake Ball looked immense in the bit I did see.


He was.

His work rate is huge. And he's benefitted from basically being rested for the last 3 months even though he was in the RWC squad.

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by Guest Sat 14 Nov 2015, 11:23 pm

Could be the rest, and the extra training. I thought he was good before, but over the last couple of games he looks on another level. He can move for such a unit. Excellent for Scarlets.

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by 2ndtimeround Sat 14 Nov 2015, 11:28 pm

Jake has come back from the RWC with a point to prove and is doing it well, it really is good to watch.

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by Guest Sun 15 Nov 2015, 9:07 am

I was surprised not to see more of Jake Ball in the RWC. I rate him highly. Was he just unlucky that there were 'better' players ahead of him, or is it that the Welsh management don't rate as highly as I do?

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by bedfordwelsh Sun 15 Nov 2015, 9:34 am

Griff wrote:I was surprised not to see more of Jake Ball in the RWC. I rate him highly. Was he just unlucky that there were 'better' players ahead of him, or is it that the Welsh management don't rate as highly as I do?

Griff,

I rate Ball as well and I think he is an integral part of the Welsh squad but I think that Bradley Davies raised his game as well and got the nod ahead of him. Hopefully that will now make Ball raise his again that's what we need all over the park.
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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by VinceWLB Sun 15 Nov 2015, 10:21 am

I will temper the sentiments about Jake Ball, for all his physical abilities and power i think his work in the tight is very poor and he has been a reason why Scarlets haven't been able for instance to defend a maul (particularly when George Earle isn't playing..). You will notice his body positioning is pretty poor and he doesn't add steel to a pack the way he should do for someone his size. There is a reason why Gatland dropped him.

I like his aggression at the breakdown and his ball carrying mind but he still has a lot to learn.

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by Hood83 Sun 15 Nov 2015, 11:13 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Ouch. Will be a tough day for the Scarlets I think.

As a neutral I wouldn't say that.  After seeing this Northampton selection I actually make Scarlets slight favourites.  Looks like Scarlets have gone big in the forwards and the backs to set up a defensive wall.  I'm not doubting Northampton's ability and if its a dry day they have the skills to go out and win this game.  But in wet conditions Scarlets have picked big units in the backs and forwards.  Plus is Davies and Barclay they have some of the best stealers around at the moment so I imagine they will probably turn Saints over at the breakdown a fair bit as well.  Not sure what the injury list for Northampton was like but I really think this may be a bad selection by Mallinder given the likely heavy/raining conditions they will be facing.

Got that one a bit wrong Mushroom, murdered in the front row, even with Saints replacements and Saints got at least parity at the breakdown.

Watch out for Harrison
and Hill, when they came on they made a big impression, especially at the breakdown.

Is Harrison going to make it do you think? Seemed to come with a huge reputation but never quite kicked on, and never seemed to put on the extra kgs I thought he'd need at the top. Must be 23 ish now, right? So now or never

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 15 Nov 2015, 11:49 am

Any opinions on how JJ Hanrahan performed?

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by Knackeredknees Sun 15 Nov 2015, 12:01 pm

North's yellow? was it justified or a penalty more a suitable punishment? only seen a small highlights clip and it wasn't mentioned

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Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 3: Northampton Saints v Scarlets, 14 November

Post by VinceWLB Sun 15 Nov 2015, 12:15 pm

Saints players kept shooting at the ref hear all night, fortunately this didn't work on Poite. Get more disciplined players who have respect for the game of rugby and you may get decisions go your way.

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