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Beautiful & Entertaining v Ugly & Boring

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Post by hawkeye Mon 09 Nov 2015, 3:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

IMO Last weeks Basel final was beautiful and entertaining and from what I can gather (of course I didn't watch) yesterdays Paris final was ugly and boring. Tennis needs Nadal back to his best and a few young players to break through otherwise it won't just be Barclays deciding to put their money elsewhere.

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Post by Guest Tue 10 Nov 2015, 5:53 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:When tennis is boring and predictable life becomes unexciting.  What to do?  

How about doing something to take advantage of the boring predictability of tennis, doing something to generate excitement in watching tennis and at the same time spicing up your life from dull to highly interesting?

This is what you should do: invest your life savings on Djokovic winning Wimbledon, on Nadal getting to the quarter-finals of Roland Garros. Make your life even more exciting by double mortgaging your house and betting it all on Murray getting soundly beaten at the Australian Open Final, then swearing at Mauresmo and punching his racquet into submission.

Can you handle the excitement?  I dare you, go on. I dare you.  

What life savings..??? Shocked
As a general response to all: If you have no life savings in order to gain important excitement from tennis I suggest betting against any of your assets.  If you have no assets bet against various body parts (e.g. kidneys for transplant etc).  If your body parts do not meet the grade then take out a loan from the nearest loan shark called Pablo or Salvatore, then place your bet. You will all thank me later for rekindling your love and passion for the sport against a background of boring predictability.


Last edited by Nore Staat on Tue 10 Nov 2015, 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Jahu Tue 10 Nov 2015, 5:54 pm

Who cares for returns?

We want attacking tennis, winners, creative shots, amazing shots and not matches won on UE's.

Who gets turned on by returns? No one.
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Post by hawkeye Tue 10 Nov 2015, 6:22 pm

temporary21 wrote:One sided matches to me are always boring. No matter who plays it. Novak gets a bum rap , people look for reasons to dislike him. You won't see better returning from anyone else than him. It's mind boggling

Is that the best you can do? Mind boggling returns? Point proven Very Happy

Also Djokovic and Murray could play 5 sets with the first 4 going to tie breaks and the final set 69-67 but it would still IMO be ugly and boring. The only difference would be that it would be ugly and boring for a longer time.

Nore Staat. So you think the way to get enjoyment out of a Djokovic/Murray match is to bet a kidney on the outcome? I suppose it would add a certain amount of tension to the outcome but don't you think it is just a little extreme Erm

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Post by socal1976 Tue 10 Nov 2015, 6:36 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Yvonne its not a matter of whether I think Novak is boring.. he does what he does extremely well and deserves his success. However when Rafa was dominating.. players found a way of neutralising his game (as it should be)
Rafa found a way of neutralising Federer (as it should have been) Their weaknesses were exploited.
Where is the player that cannot see what has to be done to do likewise to Novak???  (Please don't tell me he hasn't any Socal.).he will emerge Im sure .eventually.... in the meantime "Players Please" note that Dolgopolov has come very close.. but not close enough.
Until that happens tennis is in danger of becoming very stagnant and predictable...hence again I say BORING

In the meantime is there any point in watching the ATP finals Rolling Eyes

PS there has always been matches when  it has been UGLY I doubt there is a player who has not been guilty of that at sometime.

Haddie I think I am generally pretty even keeled in analyzing Novak or other player's games. I don't make too many over the top contentions. In the past when he hasn't been playing well I am the first to criticize aspects of his game like overheads or the FH when it goes off. But when I do see a gap in his level currently and everyone else then I honestly assess that. Sure this will come to end like any great run. Part of what makes it interesting is to see how any competitor can ride it and who is going to take the baton or thrown from them. I like most people enjoy excellence and frankly I enjoyed tennis throughout Fed's and Nadal's dominance as well. What I find dull is a period of parity but that to is a matter of preference.

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Post by socal1976 Tue 10 Nov 2015, 6:44 pm

Jahu wrote:Who cares for returns?

We want attacking tennis, winners, creative shots, amazing shots and not matches won on UE's.

Who gets turned on by returns? No one.

People who enjoy tennis do. Maybe those who use this forum to make puerile references to sexing up various women and their own self proclaimed virility don't enjoy it but real fans do. I love watching great returns. I mean it is one of the two most important shots or aspects of the game. Please stop making stuff up Djokovic plays a very aggressive brand of attack tennis , he is competent in attack and defense. Your post is silly like a football fan claiming he doesn't get turned on by a good tackle or a great save. But then again we don't rely on you thankfully for intelligent commentary

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Post by Jahu Tue 10 Nov 2015, 6:50 pm

So those of us who prefer winners and attacking tennis to returns, are what, not enjoying tennis? Not real fans?

Should I laugh now to your ever so slightly routine and ordinary one liner jokes, or what?

And stop talking with "we". You don't represent anyone else here, just yourself.

Enjoy California Almonds now, since last time Dates made you sick Laugh



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Post by temporary21 Tue 10 Nov 2015, 7:57 pm

You two have a toxic history, I suggest you turn it down. The return is the hardest shot in tennis. To see the returns he pull off on the stretch is amazing from any standpoint

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Post by Jahu Tue 10 Nov 2015, 8:03 pm

Yes it is amazing, it's just not something I want to see the whole match and being the only tool.
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Post by LuvSports! Tue 10 Nov 2015, 8:25 pm

Hardest shot in tennis is the backhand smash.

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 10 Nov 2015, 8:33 pm

Jahu wrote:Who gets turned on by returns?
Me.

I had to take a cold shower after that final game at Wimbledon this year.

New trousers were required after the SF at USO11.

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Post by Guest Tue 10 Nov 2015, 9:08 pm

Just for LS Wink

https://youtu.be/YVhS9dd2-R8

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Post by Jahu Tue 10 Nov 2015, 9:14 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
Jahu wrote:Who gets turned on by returns?
Me.

I had to take a cold shower after that final game at Wimbledon this year.

New trousers were required after the SF at USO11.

You defo need more exciting things in life to turn you on to that level, but hey, with age, what turns you on kind of takes a downfall, whatever comes up is better then nothing laughing

Enjoy it HMM, after all you are the better 50% of Djoko fans here Laugh
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Post by temporary21 Tue 10 Nov 2015, 9:43 pm

Bh smash is defo the hardest technically. The return though is all about reactions, it's often the hardest ball you'll be given by your opponent in a point. To do what he does with it is unprecedented

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Post by Jahu Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:24 pm

Yes, but if you were a good player, you would be the one dishing out hard balls to the other player and not just playing a bouncing wall that returns balls.

Thats the difference between a fighter attacking with a sword, and the other guy just defending himself with a shield, waiting till you are tired from hitting him.

Some people like to give it, other to receive it, giver or a taker, its not rocket science.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 10 Nov 2015, 10:52 pm

The odd thing about the bh smash is that I'm very good at it - much better than my normal smash. I can get great angles on the bh overhead.

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Post by temporary21 Wed 11 Nov 2015, 1:57 am

If you can nullify your opponents attack, youll make them look stupid. Its far more impressive to me than just a power hitter whacking balls. It takes the the ability to react.

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Post by socal1976 Wed 11 Nov 2015, 5:29 am

I have always had a great backhand smash as well it isn't that hard of a shot I find the backhand cross court pass, from behind the baseline and pulled wide much more difficult. You just have to start and keep your hands high through the shot and rely on angle as opposed to pace to beat your opponent on the smash it actually for me at least has never been as tough as people claim.

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Post by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2015, 9:23 am

What we have is someone moaning Djokovic is boring.

Someone moans other players are just as boring.

More moaning ensues because other players are called boring.

I have to admit I am not wowed by Djokovic, but I think that's because his style of play is likened to a predecessor who is currently not in the form of his life. I liken it to the adulation that was never bestowed on Sampras in his pomp. People had seen Becker/Edberg and there was a strong affinity to them, Becker more so. To some extent tennis does have a habit of being stuck in time. We had an ages of big servers and exceptional volleyers with a brilliant baseliner thrown in. Now it's the opposite where we have baseliners aplenty and a rare serve and volleyer.

I do sympathise with Djokovic as many will feel it's an upgrade from Nadal. Say what you will of Nadal, but he is highly popular and people warm to him.

I think Djokovic like Sampras (to quote Oasis) is caught between the landslide. I only think praise and appreciation will come later post his tennis career.

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Post by Born Slippy Wed 11 Nov 2015, 9:55 am

Djokovic plays nothing like Nadal, other than that they are both baseliners. He isn't as popular because he came up against two established greats and most tennis fans were already in one camp or other. His game is very much one for someone knowledgeable about tennis to appreciate, whereas more casual fans will be drawn to the glamour of Fed or the sheer force of energy of Nadal.

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Post by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2015, 10:21 am

Hence I said "style" you wantwit!

It's not about coming up against the established order either. If that were the case, no-one would've seen past Laver or Borg!

There are a number of factors why Djokovic lags in the popularity stakes, which isn't just restricted to the casual fan of glory hunting. Media coverage and demographics just to name a couple.

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Post by Jahu Wed 11 Nov 2015, 10:24 am

Born Slippy wrote:His game is very much one for someone knowledgeable about tennis to appreciate

You are the second one after socal (which I don't blame) that calls anyone that does not like Djoko's game as unknowledgeable.

So one needs to be a tennis expert to appreciate Djokos game?

Defies logic.





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Post by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2015, 10:26 am

clap Laugh

I can only assume Jahu you are in the presence of a woman?

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Post by LuvSports! Wed 11 Nov 2015, 10:32 am

Ha, he wishes. Maybe a woman is on his screen Wink

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Post by Jahu Wed 11 Nov 2015, 10:43 am

Oi oi, while accusing me of womanizing, its a fact that its you 2 who are thinking so early in the day about ladies Laugh



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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 12:20 pm

His tennis aside..  I  think Novak is himself partly to blame for his "unpopularity" a legacy from his early years of feigning injury or illness for his frequent MTO's  probably crying wolf once to often. His health issues were constantly at the forefront of his wins/losses. His shirt tearing and chest thumping also did him no favours. ..now often tantrums when he loses even  a point..raquet smashing and yelling at ball boys do not win friends and influence some. True to some extent he has matured somewhat since marriage and becoming a father.. but there are those who are still not convinced by that and I hesitate to suggest that Jahu might be amongst them.
Shame for Novak he has earned respect for his tennis but for those with longer memories there are some that will t not forget his previous on court behaviour

I stress that its not so much Novak that I find boring, but the vice like grip he has on the game at the moment.

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Post by Born Slippy Wed 11 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

Pretty obvious he didn't yell at the ball boy Haddie - he yelled and the ball boy happened to be nearby.

What about the fact he continually applauds good shots by his opponents, concedes points and generally is gracious in defeat? For me, (and I'm not really a Novak fan) he is an excellent ambassador for the game - as indeed are all the big 4 in their own way.

Whilst the things you mention probably put a few people off, I doubt they are significant. As stated above, its his game/success which is the problem.

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Post by Born Slippy Wed 11 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

Jahu wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:His game is very much one for someone knowledgeable about tennis to appreciate

You are the second one after socal (which I don't blame) that calls anyone that does not like Djoko's game as unknowledgeable.

So one needs to be a tennis expert to appreciate Djokos game?

Defies logic.






The first sentence isn't what I said. The second one is close, although knowledgeable does not require you to be an expert. My point was that your pleb on the street simply won't appreciate what Novak does - there isn't a wow factor.

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Post by Jahu Wed 11 Nov 2015, 1:46 pm

HN, have you unblocked me? You flirting with me again now mentioning me in your posts? I forgive you Laugh

Yes Djoko has done a lot of damage to himself, sure knowing where he comes from, it was expected that he will thrive on obligatory macho behavior and nationalism, but somehow he has matured slow then say Nadal who was wining GS at les then 20y old.

Once Djoko magically and unexplanatory found out that bread & pizza is no good, and started wining, he forgot how to behave, swearing to public, behaving like an animal, and still 4 years after being number one, he still smashes racquets and punches his shoes.

But then again, who cares for him, he will be history next year Laugh
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Post by Jahu Wed 11 Nov 2015, 1:56 pm

Born Slippy wrote:

The first sentence isn't what I said. The second one is close, although knowledgeable does not require you to be an expert. My point was that your pleb on the street simply won't appreciate what Novak does - there isn't a wow factor.

There are 4 simple elements why one likes Djoko:

1. You are a serb (well collectivly serbian fans who cheer Fed and Nadal, outnumber serb fans who only cheer Djoko, has to do a lot with Djoko playing the fake Monaco Princ and throwing a few thousands of Dollars a year to poor in Serbia, to buy a little love)
2. You are married to a serb,
3. Your roots are from non-aligned countries and still think Yugoslavia is alive.
4. You hate so much Fed and Nadal, that Djoko has provided you with some spiritual fulfillment when he beats them 2.

So not many appreciate Djoko and never will, as he has brought nothing new to tennis, just some more advanced Nadal stamina.

I don't have a problem Djoko kicking ass all this year, but no one should be dreaming that Djoko is anywhere comparable to the play, skills and entertainment then Fed & Nadal, let alone being loved anywhere near them 2.


Now give me Hi 5, you have done some good pro-Djoko marketing last few days Smile


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Post by LuvSports! Wed 11 Nov 2015, 2:31 pm

I know a pleb on the street and he told me he was offended by that remark....

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Post by HM Murdock Wed 11 Nov 2015, 2:42 pm

Jahu wrote:
There are 4 simple elements why one likes Djoko:

1. You are a serb (well collectivly serbian fans who cheer Fed and Nadal, outnumber serb fans who only cheer Djoko, has to do a lot with Djoko playing the fake Monaco Princ and throwing a few thousands of Dollars a year to poor in Serbia, to buy a little love)
2. You are married to a serb,
3. Your roots are from non-aligned countries and still think Yugoslavia is alive.
4. You hate so much Fed and Nadal, that Djoko has provided you with some spiritual fulfillment when he beats them 2.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pulling+pigtails

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Post by hawkeye Wed 11 Nov 2015, 2:47 pm

There were two players in the (IMO) Ugly and boring Paris final not just Djokovic. Just saying. Maybe Djokovic is getting all the attention because he is more disliked or maybe it is because he is more successful? It would be shocking to think it was because of his nationality?

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Post by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2015, 2:55 pm

So you called the final boring without watching it?? Headscratch

How do you know it was boring?

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Post by hawkeye Wed 11 Nov 2015, 2:59 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:So you called the final boring without watching it?? Headscratch

How do you know it was boring?

And Ugly...  Sad  Did you find it beautiful and entertaining?

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Post by YvonneT Wed 11 Nov 2015, 3:04 pm

HE, what about the Beijing final? Was that ugly & boring or beautiful & entertaining? Perhaps it was half of each? Ugly & entertaining perhaps or beautiful & boring.

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Post by LuvSports! Wed 11 Nov 2015, 3:06 pm

Ugly and Boring vs Federer Very Happy

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 3:43 pm

Pretty obvious he didn't yell at the ball boy Haddie - he yelled and the ball boy happened to be nearby.


Beg to differ.. twice Novak has been seen yelling and indeed snatching the towel from the ball boy,.. they showed you the boys face close up he was petrified.. Novak reportedly apologised to the boy afterwards.
It was in the press

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 3:53 pm

Two different incidents this was one

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/07/07/novak-djokovic-yells-ball-girl-towel-cry-video/

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Post by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2015, 4:38 pm

hawkeye wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:So you called the final boring without watching it?? Headscratch

How do you know it was boring?

And Ugly...  Sad  Did you find it beautiful and entertaining?

Beautiful is not necessarily a word I would usually apply to tennis. My interpretation of the word is usually eloquence, precious and a gentile purity. Can't say that I have watched a tennis match and been moved to write poetry and chase butterflies afterwards.

I saw the match on Sunday and I was filled with a sense of resentment because of predicting the end result which was a Djokovic win before a ball was tossed. The match as a whole had some passages of entertaining play. No match has really provided long passages of high quality play. Some of them come close, but none for me involve the current crop now of in their pomp.

The thing I find amusing is that you never seem to isolate Nadal as an individual talent. Everything comes back to Fedal. I'll give credit to other Nadal fans who actually voice their opinion on Nadal as a player without pairing him off with another player to enhance his game/credentials. For you it seems everything comes back to Nadal and Federer

There are many players Nadal has played over the years and thrown up some entertaining matches, and I never see you mention anything other than Fedal.

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Post by Born Slippy Wed 11 Nov 2015, 5:09 pm

The Paris final wasn't entertaining because Andy played like a half-interested amateur for all bar about 3 games (which were quite entertaining). At least half of the Nolandy matches this year have been entertaining though - its a great match up but only if Andy is playing well.

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Post by hawkeye Wed 11 Nov 2015, 5:53 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Beautiful is not necessarily a word I would usually apply to tennis. My interpretation of the word is usually eloquence, precious and a gentile purity. Can't say that I have watched a tennis match and been moved to write poetry and chase butterflies afterwards.


Beautiful as in "pleasing the senses or mind aesthetically" Very Happy

legendkillarV2 wrote:For you it seems everything comes back to Nadal and Federer

There are many players Nadal has played over the years and thrown up some entertaining matches, and I never see you mention anything other than Fedal.

Tennis is about match ups and theirs as far as I'm concerned is the ultimate. When they play other players it can be good too of course but IMO they bring out the best in each other. Contrasting styles is just part of it. I believe they enjoy playing each other too unless all their quotes about how enjoyable they find the match up are made just to irritate Djokovic Wink

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Post by socal1976 Wed 11 Nov 2015, 5:54 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Pretty obvious he didn't yell at the ball boy Haddie - he yelled and the ball boy happened to be nearby.


Beg to differ.. twice  Novak has been seen yelling and indeed snatching the towel from the ball boy,.. they showed you the boys face close up he was petrified.. Novak reportedly apologised to the boy afterwards.
It was in the press

Yes for yelling while he was nearby both those incidents were pretty obvious
that he was angry with his play not directing it at the ball boy, I am offended by Nadal picking his arse twenty million times in tennis career. It is quite a rewrite of history to claim he was yelling at the ball kid in fact he is maybe one of the nicest and most gracious players toward the ball boys. This is completely made up that he purposely yelled at the ball kids.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:36 pm

[/b]Oh get real socal..it was well publicised and he made comment about being a father he should not have done it and apologised.. he at least admitted it and your comment re Nadal is hardly comparable and somewhat churlish and not your style..Your beginning to sound like a Fed fan. Rolling Eyes
You will have me believing he can walk on water too ..only the GOAT can perform that miracle.
There is no need to defend every criticism as I have been frequently told over the years so..........
Sit back and gloat by all means but your comments are having the familiar tone as one of your adversaries . Wink

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Post by socal1976 Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:48 pm

Yeah but he said in the same interview he wasn't yelling at the kid but himself I watched the incident both live and it was clear he was yelling at himself and his play the kid was nearby. So claiming he admitted to purposely yelling at a ball kid is just not true.

socal1976

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Post by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:51 pm

hawkeye wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:

Beautiful is not necessarily a word I would usually apply to tennis. My interpretation of the word is usually eloquence, precious and a gentile purity. Can't say that I have watched a tennis match and been moved to write poetry and chase butterflies afterwards.


Beautiful as in "pleasing the senses or mind aesthetically" Very Happy

legendkillarV2 wrote:For you it seems everything comes back to Nadal and Federer

There are many players Nadal has played over the years and thrown up some entertaining matches, and I never see you mention anything other than Fedal.

Tennis is about match ups and theirs as far as I'm concerned is the ultimate. When they play other players it can be good too of course but IMO they bring out the best in each other. Contrasting styles is just part of it. I believe they enjoy playing each other too unless all their quotes about how enjoyable they find the match up are made just to irritate Djokovic Wink

Yes match ups are important. Where I am coming from is that part of you that tries to elevate Nadal is to always place him side by side with Federer. The ambition of that opinion is far too safe. If I was a Nadal fan, I would argue that Nadal is the most entertaining part of any match up no matter who he plays Wink

One could argue like so many do about under par performances of others that maybe Djokovic and Murray haven't played each other at the absolute top of their performances in their matches. chin

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 6:54 pm

socal1976 wrote:Yeah but he said in the same interview he wasn't yelling at the kid but himself  I watched the incident both live and it was clear he was yelling at himself and his play the kid was nearby. So claiming he admitted to purposely yelling at a ball kid is just not true.


Yeah back to "in the eye of the beholder"

There were two incidents socal.. one with the ball boy which you mention but also the one I posted when he snatched a towel from the towel girl. yelling at her.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/07/07/novak-djokovic-yells-ball-girl-towel-cry-video/


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Post by socal1976 Wed 11 Nov 2015, 7:02 pm

ok but I saw both incidents live and he was yelling at himself clearly and obviously if you want to pretend that he just goes after ball kids when he hits a bad shot go ahead but it doesn't make it true. And edited tape by respected media tabloid Hollywood life doesn't change what happened. Saw it live and your analysis of the events is
not logical or factual and is pretty much a smear.

Ok eye of the beholder so we get to make up our own reality now? I think Nadal picks his crevice so he can gather dingle berries to flick at the ball kids, that is my reality and I am sticking to it

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 7:13 pm

Oh dear socal.. crude and nasty.. you truly have got it bad haven't you Ive been called a fan girl for less. picard

I too saw both those incidents live.. and I know what I believe and I too am sticking to it. Fool yourself if it makes you feel better


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Post by socal1976 Wed 11 Nov 2015, 7:25 pm

Yeah it is much more logical to believe that he missed a shot and we have seen him yell at himself a thousand times on the court, but this time he misses a shot and decides to blame it on the ball kid and go after them. This would be the behavior of a raving sociopath. Fortunately, I am not afraid of being called a fan girl. I stick to the truth of what happened and you spinning it off like he purposefully went after the ball kids (why because he missed a shot and lost a point) when we have seen him yell at himself often during matches or at his box is just a lie. And you can choose to believe it if you like but if you come and state it like it is plain fact that is what happened I will vigorously rebut it. Your analysis of the events is just nonsensical. The guy who yells at himself a thousand times a season and in those other 2000 times manages not to do it close to a ball kid, well is it now logical to assume that those two times he did yell and a ball kid was too close for comfort that he was A. Yelling at himself like he did the other 2000 times OR B. for some strange reason he didn't like the cut of little Mary's jig and decided to blame her for why he lost the last point 5 seconds ago and go after the kid in public on PURPOSE. If that is your position OK, but I think it illustrates what I have been saying. Some people just don't want to like him because he beats their favorite player X, and that is fine and daddy. While you are entitled to your own opinion you aren't entitled to make up your own facts.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed 11 Nov 2015, 7:41 pm

I witnessed both incidents as did you.. you have your verdict I have mine it is not changing FACTS merely
A difference in interpreting those facts.

]Your in danger of overstating your argument and in doing so you are beginning to sound childish

He Protests Too Much Me Thinks

Now for me that is an end to it.. move on

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