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Pontypridd gone

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Post by Cardiff Dave Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

"Cardiff Blues to stop providing players to Premiership clubs Pontypridd and Cardiff RFC in major shake-up"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/cardiff-blues-stop-providing-players-10432970

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:52 am

Also if Cardiff Blues are not going to provide Pontypridd with players, then I guess Pontypridd will not be providing Cardiff Blues with any.

Trust me without the valleys of Glamorgan Cardiff Blues would not have a team. Unless they are now going to use Merthyr, but the Rhondda Valleys and the Pontypridd valleys supply Cardiff Blues with most of their players, there are not enough clubs in Cardiff to sustain a region. This will not end well for both teams.

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Post by Guest Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:Also if Cardiff Blues are not going to provide Pontypridd with players, then I guess Pontypridd will not be providing Cardiff Blues with any.

Trust me without the valleys of Glamorgan Cardiff Blues would not have a team. Unless they are now going to use Merthyr, but the Rhondda Valleys and the Pontypridd valleys supply Cardiff Blues with most of their players, there are not enough clubs in Cardiff to sustain a region. This will not end well for both teams.

LD, Ponty don't have to supply the Blues now, that's true. But it doesn't mean that Pieman can't meet with a Ponty player and offer him a contract and sign him up. All that's changing is the drafting in and out of players in a regional two-way relationship type of thing. The Blues can still employ valleys human beings. There's no embargo on them all of a sudden! As another example, Ponty didn't used to supply Cardiff with players pre-regional rugby when Martyn Williams was at Ponty, but he still left to join Cardiff.

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Post by GavinDragon Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:00 am

Was the ponty owner able to continue to fund the warriors on his own?

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Post by GavinDragon Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:07 am

I agree griff. And from a pure rugby point of view this is going to work well for the Blues. Just can't stand how smug some blues fans are being about it on twitter

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:08 am

Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also if Cardiff Blues are not going to provide Pontypridd with players, then I guess Pontypridd will not be providing Cardiff Blues with any.

Trust me without the valleys of Glamorgan Cardiff Blues would not have a team. Unless they are now going to use Merthyr, but the Rhondda Valleys and the Pontypridd valleys supply Cardiff Blues with most of their players, there are not enough clubs in Cardiff to sustain a region. This will not end well for both teams.

LD, Ponty don't have to supply the Blues now, that's true.  But it doesn't mean that Pieman can't meet with a Ponty player and offer him a contract and sign him up.  All that's changing is the drafting in and out of players in a regional two-way relationship type of thing.  The Blues can still employ valleys human beings.  There's no embargo on them all of a sudden!  As another example, Ponty didn't used to supply Cardiff with players pre-regional rugby when Martyn Williams was at Ponty, but he still left to join Cardiff.

Griff I think it has all changed now, what with the pathways the WRU have set out. The way I look at it is like this, Cardiff Blues have Cardiff RFC in the prem and Cardiff MET in the championship, Cardiff do not have enough decent clubs to sustain a region, with the valleys they have Pontypridd, Merthyr, Beddua and Llanharan all in the prem and the championship. If you look at the Cardiff Blues squad, most of the players, in-fact at least three quarters of the squad all started their life off in the valleys, the amount of players from Church Village and Pontypridd they have alone is staggering. This will not end well, unless of course there are transfer fees for players, and the pieman stumps up the cash for players Pontypridd might have contracted to them.

The whole development for the players will now be tested.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:11 am

GavinDragon wrote:I agree griff. And from a pure rugby point of view this is going to work well for the Blues. Just can't stand how smug some blues fans are being about it on twitter

Where are the rest of the development players going to go, Cardiff RFC ? Cardiff MET ? This will not end well for either side. Where will they get all their academy players from ? The same to clubs ? Go and have a look at the Blues website, and take a sneak peek at how many academy players have come from Pontypridd RFC.

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Post by Guest Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:26 am

GavinDragon wrote:I agree griff. And from a pure rugby point of view this is going to work well for the Blues. Just can't stand how smug some blues fans are being about it on twitter

All I'm saying is that those Valleys players in the Blues squad are not there for free or for the love of the game. They are there because they are on a salary. So regardless of pathways if the Blues spot a good player at Ponty, Merthyr, Tonypandy (!), wherever, they can talk to then and offer them a pro contract if they like. Just like they do now with players they fancy in Gwent or Ospreylia or Scarletville, and just like the other regions do in each others territories. This Blues-Ponty fallout won't change sports business. If the next George North is discovered in Pontypridd tomorrow, and the Blues offered enough money to him, then he'll likely sign for them. Nothing has changed there.

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Post by Guest Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:I agree griff. And from a pure rugby point of view this is going to work well for the Blues. Just can't stand how smug some blues fans are being about it on twitter

Where are the rest of the development players going to go, Cardiff RFC ? Cardiff MET ? This will not end well for either side. Where will they get all their academy players from ? The same to clubs ? Go and have a look at the Blues website, and take a sneak peek at how many academy players have come from Pontypridd RFC.

And they'll still come from the Ponty area, I'm sure. They're being paid still so they'll still come. If you're a young lad in the valleys and you're offered a paid regional development contract by the Blues vs carrying on playing for free for your local side in the valleys and perhaps missing out on your dream of pro rugby - I think the former is the likely outcome, regardless of the relationship between Ponty and Cardiff.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:30 am

Griff wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:I agree griff. And from a pure rugby point of view this is going to work well for the Blues. Just can't stand how smug some blues fans are being about it on twitter

All I'm saying is that those Valleys players in the Blues squad are not there for free or for the love of the game.  They are there because they are on a salary.  So regardless of pathways if the Blues spot a good player at Ponty, Merthyr, Tonypandy (!), wherever, they can talk to then and offer them a pro contract if they like.  Just like they do now with players they fancy in Gwent or Ospreylia or Scarletville, and just like the other regions do in each others territories.  This Blues-Ponty fallout won't change sports business.  If the next George North is discovered in Pontypridd tomorrow, and the Blues offered enough money to him, then he'll likely sign for them.  Nothing has changed there.

I am talking about academy players, surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up. Also, are Cardiff Blues going to have less academy players now ? As Cardiff RFC will not be able to take them all, plus what they have already.

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Post by offload Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:32 am

Lovely story this - "regional" rugby at it's best. The whole professional rugby saga in Wales has been a **** up from the start. All we've got to show for it is 4 crap teams, a crap league and crap rugby, week in week out.
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Post by munkian Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:50 am

offload wrote:Lovely story this - "regional" rugby at it's best.  The whole professional rugby saga in Wales has been a **** up from the start.  All we've got to show for it is 4 crap teams, a crap league and crap rugby, week in week out.

Don't sit on the fence...
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Post by GavinDragon Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:57 am

Blues wold have to compensate any club's contracted player who left during the contract. But in all honesty, let's say ponty have a gem playing for them. He is only going to be on a 1 or 2 year contract max and so the blues would just wait until his contract ran out. Same for any other club or region

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Post by munkian Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:11 am

Does anyone else think that anything below Regional level should be strictly Amateur ?
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Post by offload Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:14 am

munkian wrote:Does anyone else think that anything below Regional level should be strictly Amateur  ?

A resounding yes.


Still not on a fence thumbsup
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Post by GavinDragon Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:26 am

Yes.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:44 am

LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

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Post by Stone Motif Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:07 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Stone you say one team can afford it, and you are right but the only reason cardiff were and are able to afford it is because in 03 and since they have had the pie man backing them. People come on here and say that there is a sense of entitlement among certain ponty fans and maybe there is. But as I said cardiff fans should remember the real reason why their team has prevailed.

I really hope ponty make an attempt to join the English pyramid at a lower level

So what? Investment is a prerequisite of pro rugby.

Sounds to me like Peter Pies has been allowing Ponty to operate on many times the budget of their league contemporaries for years an all.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:11 pm

Stone Motif wrote:Sounds to me like Peter Pies has been allowing Ponty to operate on many times the budget of their league contemporaries for years an all.

This is another reason for the schadenfreude.

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Post by Stone Motif Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:He was the Bridgend owner, not the Pontypridd owner. OK

Ponty having already gone belly up twice all on their own.
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Post by Guest Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:40 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

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Post by Guest Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:42 pm

How are Ponty ever going to join the English tiers? Who will pay for them? They're already finding it difficult this season now they're missing a few players to Cardiff Blues A etc too.


Last edited by Risca Rev on Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Coleman Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:01 pm

I'm glad that we are cutting our squad down. We have a lot of poor players and hopefully this money saved along with the increase in the salary cap will mean that we can try and bring back some Welsh players in positions we are weak in (second row, Charts, fullback Halfpenny, etc). 

Also it would be nice to see a genuine world beater come to a Welsh region. The last honest to god top foreign international i can remember was January at the Ospreys (feel freel to correct me). So if this money saved can get us a Carter, Habana or a Pocock then good. I'm sick of them all going to bloody France or England.

I assume we still keep our player development pathways. I.E Blues U16 North/South. In terms of "permiting" players upwards. I assume we will be paying fees for these players now as we are not in a player sharing relationship anymore. 

Also i assume PT will continue to invest in Cardiff RFC and his brother will also continue to fund Merthyr. Could some of this be backdoor way of trying to hamstring Ponty? Without trying to come across as rude but i cannot see Ponty competing financially with the money behind these two teams and also the other regionally backed prem sides.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:03 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite. If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:06 pm

The player pathways are still there. They haven't cut themselves off. Players will still come up the chain, as they're supposed to, but now players won't get lent out down the chain free of charge.

As for rival clubs, Pontypridd RFC's rival club is Cardiff RFC. The Blues sit above both.


Last edited by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:09 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But they're not trying to become a superclub. The player pathways are still there. They haven't cut themselves off. Players will still come up the chain, as they're supposed to, but now players won't get lent out down the chain free of charge.

Lucky, I did use the word IF.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:13 pm

I just deleted the 'trying to become a superclub' bit, because I didn't believe what I was saying.

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Post by Guest Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:49 pm

[quote="ScarletSpiderman"]
Risca Rev wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'. And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place. Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area). So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards. That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not. That's just geography I'm afraid. Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond. You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:01 pm

Griff, I get how the whole pyramid thing works. But every so often you get ambitious sides that seek to climb the pyramid, as opposed to staying where they are (Merthyr are doing it to Ponty now).

The thing is if one of the higher blocks on the pyramid changes that could lead to future issues with ambitious sides seeking to climb higher. Obviously we are talking years down the road, as there are currently things that will stop that from happening (regions being signatories on the euro comp etc), but I doubt that will stop the ambitious starting to scheme for the future.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:17 pm

Before they start scheming for the future, they should check with the WRU whether moving up to Pro12 level is possible, otherwise they're wasting their time.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:31 pm

Lucky that is very true.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:35 pm

In fairness to Valleys Rugby, they did present a plan to the WRU, but if the door was never truly open to a fifth region, or a new region replacing an existing region, then that was a waste of their time, and the WRU should have told them early on not to bother. Otherwise it's just mean.

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Post by munkian Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:39 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:In fairness to Valleys Rugby, they did present a plan to the WRU, but if the door was never truly open to a fifth region, or a new region replacing an existing region, then that was a waste of their time, and the WRU should have told them early on not to bother. Otherwise it's just mean.


Their 'proposal' was based on nothing though - no financial backers, no infrastructure etc etc
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:41 pm

Oh I know. But why string them along in the first place.

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Post by munkian Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:45 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Oh I know. But why string them along in the first place.

Because if they didn't they make a huge fuss...oh, wait
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Post by 2ndtimeround Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:10 pm

What I don't quite get about this is all the regions loan players out to their feeder clubs, the Scarlets for example consistently have regional contracted players representing Llanelli, Carmarthen and Llandovery.
The real difference I guess is in the number of these, whereas the Scarlets will generally have about 45 players contracted, the Blues have had over 60, are they just going to reduce the extra ones that realistically never play for the Blues and were contracted purely for the feeder clubs, therefore they will still loan players from a more sustainable base of 45ish, or are they just cutting their feeder clubs adrift completely?

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Post by Steffan Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:49 pm

I couldn't care really its just another disaster that we have become accustomed to in Welsh domestic rugby. Ponty will still be a Premiership team and Cardiff Blues will still be a Pro 12 team. Nothing will change although the Blues current crap form form is no doubt Ponty's fault in some shape or form

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Post by Stone Motif Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:16 am

Steffan wrote:I couldn't care really its just another disaster that we have become accustomed to in Welsh domestic rugby. Ponty will still be a Premiership team and Cardiff Blues will still be a Pro 12 team. Nothing will change although the Blues current crap form form is no doubt Ponty's fault in some shape or form

I can see why losing £250 large are year in free benefits is a bit of a downer, but lok on the bright side - at least you are no longer in bed with your beloved Pie Man.

Wind ups aside, this will make the Prem a lot more interesting and exiting,no?
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Post by Steffan Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:56 am

A competitive Premiership is a good thing and I would rather Ponty come second or third in a good league as opposed to finishing top in a one horse race

I'm sure once Merthyr come up and sign players like Dan Carter it will spice things up a bit

At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Rather strange that the Pieman is making these changes while also calling for East and West Wales teams

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/need-european-super-15-peter-10301901

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:39 am

Steffan wrote:At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Richard Holland wrote:
Our engagement right across the region is being strengthened.

We have employed nine community liaison officers that are forming a relationship with all the clubs across our region.

We take our responsibility right across the region very seriously.

There is no convincing certain people to come and support Cardiff Blues whatever we try and do.

That I respect but what I can’t do is focus on people who are beyond changing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-cardiff-blues-interview-caused-10436984

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Post by Guest Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:16 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Steffan wrote:At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Richard Holland wrote:
Our engagement right across the region is being strengthened.

We have employed nine community liaison officers that are forming a relationship with all the clubs across our region.

We take our responsibility right across the region very seriously.

There is no convincing certain people to come and support Cardiff Blues whatever we try and do.

That I respect but what I can’t do is focus on people who are beyond changing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-cardiff-blues-interview-caused-10436984

Reading between the lines this sounds like an intended and genuine attempt/commitment to regional rugby to me, just without the involvement of Pontypridd as they do not get on and have decided to stop trying with them (fair enough). What do you say Cardiff Dave?!

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Post by Stone Motif Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:39 am

Steffan wrote:A competitive Premiership is a good thing and I would rather Ponty come second or third in a good league as opposed to finishing top in a one horse race

I'm sure once Merthyr come up and sign players like Dan Carter it will spice things up a bit

At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Rather strange that the Pieman is making these changes while also calling for East and West Wales teams

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/need-european-super-15-peter-10301901

Was giving you £250 large per annum for nowt 'pretending' then?
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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:04 pm

Griff wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Steffan wrote:At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Richard Holland wrote:
Our engagement right across the region is being strengthened.

We have employed nine community liaison officers that are forming a relationship with all the clubs across our region.

We take our responsibility right across the region very seriously.

There is no convincing certain people to come and support Cardiff Blues whatever we try and do.

That I respect but what I can’t do is focus on people who are beyond changing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-cardiff-blues-interview-caused-10436984

Reading between the lines this sounds like an intended and genuine attempt/commitment to regional rugby to me, just without the involvement of Pontypridd as they do not get on and have decided to stop trying with them (fair enough). What do you say Cardiff Dave?!

Not much has changed really has it and "There is an invitation for the Pontypridd directors to come to the Nottingham game on Saturday." So both parties are still terrific friends by the look of it.

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Post by wayne Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:34 pm

Griff wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'.  And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place.  Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area).  So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards.  That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not.  That's just geography I'm afraid.  Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond.  You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.
Interesting debate going on here, as a little extra, don't people remember the disagreement between us and Neath, and the experience of the Tavis Knoyle scenario, he played for us towards the end of one season 08 or 09 IIRC, and by the start of the following season he had signed for the Scarlets, at the time our hierarchy was not best pleased. There is a boy who is at Coleg y Cymoed in Aberdare and his registered club is Treorchy, which I believe is in the Blues catchment area, yet he was named in the U18 squad for us earlier this week, so basically it is not all about Geography.

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Post by Guest Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:26 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Griff wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Steffan wrote:At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Richard Holland wrote:
Our engagement right across the region is being strengthened.

We have employed nine community liaison officers that are forming a relationship with all the clubs across our region.

We take our responsibility right across the region very seriously.

There is no convincing certain people to come and support Cardiff Blues whatever we try and do.

That I respect but what I can’t do is focus on people who are beyond changing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-cardiff-blues-interview-caused-10436984

Reading between the lines this sounds like an intended and genuine attempt/commitment to regional rugby to me, just without the involvement of Pontypridd as they do not get on and have decided to stop trying with them (fair enough). What do you say Cardiff Dave?!

Not much has changed really has it and "There is an invitation for the Pontypridd directors to come to the Nottingham game on Saturday." So both parties are still terrific friends by the look of it.

But you can't be too happy with this Dave? I always got the impression you were fully against any attempts for Cardiff Blues to be anything other than representative of the city of Cardiff only. You and your 'spades' thing. But Holland seems suggest a wider 'reejunal' remit.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:16 pm

Griff wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Griff wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Steffan wrote:At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Richard Holland wrote:
Our engagement right across the region is being strengthened.

We have employed nine community liaison officers that are forming a relationship with all the clubs across our region.

We take our responsibility right across the region very seriously.

There is no convincing certain people to come and support Cardiff Blues whatever we try and do.

That I respect but what I can’t do is focus on people who are beyond changing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-cardiff-blues-interview-caused-10436984

Reading between the lines this sounds like an intended and genuine attempt/commitment to regional rugby to me, just without the involvement of Pontypridd as they do not get on and have decided to stop trying with them (fair enough). What do you say Cardiff Dave?!

Not much has changed really has it and "There is an invitation for the Pontypridd directors to come to the Nottingham game on Saturday." So both parties are still terrific friends by the look of it.

But you can't be too happy with this Dave? I always got the impression you were fully against any attempts for Cardiff Blues to be anything other than representative of the city of Cardiff only. You and your 'spades' thing. But Holland seems suggest a wider 'reejunal' remit.

Griff mun, Cardiff Blues are ye olde Cardiff in a blue woolly jumper (that has worn a bit thin I have to say). You know the rest of the story shewerly?

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:28 pm

wayne wrote:
Griff wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'.  And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place.  Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area).  So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards.  That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not.  That's just geography I'm afraid.  Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond.  You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.
Interesting debate going on here, as a little extra, don't people remember the disagreement between us and Neath, and the experience of the Tavis Knoyle scenario, he played for us towards the end of one season 08 or 09 IIRC, and by the start of the following season he had signed for the Scarlets, at the time our hierarchy was not best pleased. There is a boy who is at Coleg y Cymoed in Aberdare and his registered club is Treorchy, which I believe is in the Blues catchment area, yet he was named in the U18 squad for us earlier this week, so basically it is not all about Geography.

This suggests that the 4 Pro clubs can recruit from any other club within Wales and the said recruits can join any of the 4 regardless as to where they reside or which club they play for. Which begs the question; when does geography (regional boundaries) enter the equation on these matters? I'm asking coz I don't know btw.

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Post by wayne Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:40 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
Griff wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'.  And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place.  Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area).  So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards.  That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not.  That's just geography I'm afraid.  Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond.  You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.
Interesting debate going on here, as a little extra, don't people remember the disagreement between us and Neath, and the experience of the Tavis Knoyle scenario, he played for us towards the end of one season 08 or 09 IIRC, and by the start of the following season he had signed for the Scarlets, at the time our hierarchy was not best pleased. There is a boy who is at Coleg y Cymoed in Aberdare and his registered club is Treorchy, which I believe is in the Blues catchment area, yet he was named in the U18 squad for us earlier this week, so basically it is not all about Geography.

This suggests that the 4 Pro clubs can recruit from any other club within Wales and the said recruits can join any of the 4 regardless as to where they reside or which club they play for. Which begs the question; when does geography (regional boundaries) enter the equation on these matters? I'm asking coz I don't know btw.
Dave, yes it can happen and already has by the Knoyle fiasco, but the normal relationship between feeder clubs have generally been good, the 2 examples of that relationship us with Neath and you with Ponty not getting along, can upset the applecart, let me just say our bridges have been rebuilt since the demise of Hawkes, somebody further up the line said it wouldn't help either organisation and I certainly agree with that viewpoint.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:40 pm

Steffan wrote:A competitive Premiership is a good thing and I would rather Ponty come second or third in a good league as opposed to finishing top in a one horse race

I'm sure once Merthyr come up and sign players like Dan Carter it will spice things up a bit

At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Rather strange that the Pieman is making these changes while also calling for East and West Wales teams

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/need-european-super-15-peter-10301901

Pieman speak with fork tongue. Or he's totally Tonto. Hi-ho Silver.

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Post by Guest Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:47 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Griff wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Griff wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Steffan wrote:At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Richard Holland wrote:
Our engagement right across the region is being strengthened.

We have employed nine community liaison officers that are forming a relationship with all the clubs across our region.

We take our responsibility right across the region very seriously.

There is no convincing certain people to come and support Cardiff Blues whatever we try and do.

That I respect but what I can’t do is focus on people who are beyond changing.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-cardiff-blues-interview-caused-10436984

Reading between the lines this sounds like an intended and genuine attempt/commitment to regional rugby to me, just without the involvement of Pontypridd as they do not get on and have decided to stop trying with them (fair enough). What do you say Cardiff Dave?!

Not much has changed really has it and "There is an invitation for the Pontypridd directors to come to the Nottingham game on Saturday." So both parties are still terrific friends by the look of it.

But you can't be too happy with this Dave? I always got the impression you were fully against any attempts for Cardiff Blues to be anything other than representative of the city of Cardiff only. You and your 'spades' thing. But Holland seems suggest a wider 'reejunal' remit.

Griff mun, Cardiff Blues are ye olde Cardiff in a blue woolly jumper (that has worn a bit thin I have to say). You know the rest of the story shewerly?  

No, ye olde Cardiff RFC did not look to the wider region to develop relationships and play the regional game. Nor did anyone else at that time. The new regions however are meant to be doing that, and by and large are doing that. However, I felt that you personally (and the Blues themselves for that matter) wanted to revert back fully to the pre-regional rugby days of insular teams looking adter just themselves and being in competition with everyone else in the local area, so it's nice to see your CEO dude come out and say that the plan is to play the regional game. I just wondered if that upset you personally, given the way I presumed you wanted the Blues to run.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:04 pm

wayne wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
Griff wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'.  And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place.  Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area).  So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards.  That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not.  That's just geography I'm afraid.  Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond.  You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.
Interesting debate going on here, as a little extra, don't people remember the disagreement between us and Neath, and the experience of the Tavis Knoyle scenario, he played for us towards the end of one season 08 or 09 IIRC, and by the start of the following season he had signed for the Scarlets, at the time our hierarchy was not best pleased. There is a boy who is at Coleg y Cymoed in Aberdare and his registered club is Treorchy, which I believe is in the Blues catchment area, yet he was named in the U18 squad for us earlier this week, so basically it is not all about Geography.

This suggests that the 4 Pro clubs can recruit from any other club within Wales and the said recruits can join any of the 4 regardless as to where they reside or which club they play for. Which begs the question; when does geography (regional boundaries) enter the equation on these matters? I'm asking coz I don't know btw.
Dave, yes it can happen and already has by the Knoyle fiasco, but the normal relationship between feeder clubs have generally been good, the 2 examples of that relationship us with Neath and you with Ponty not getting along, can upset the applecart, let me just say our bridges have been rebuilt since the demise of Hawkes, somebody further up the line said it wouldn't help either organisation and I certainly agree with that viewpoint.

Aye, but why have regional boundaries anyway when the pro sides can recruit from wherever, young and up and coming players can move to wherever and punters can support whoever? Ospreys have supporters from all over Wales, just like the other 3. Makes no sense.

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