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Future of the Welsh Premiership

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Stone Motif
wayne
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Post by Welshmushroom Fri 13 Nov 2015, 10:35 am

For me the Premiership is not fit for purpose. We still have a semi pro league that is run on the basis that certain clubs still prioritise their own success above providing players ready for regional rugby.

For me the key areas to address are as follows:
1. Reduce teams to 8 with matches to be played 2 weeks apart. This would give teams a longer training schedule prior to matches to make sure players are recovered and prepared for the next match. A lot of players at this level do not play full time and have jobs so this will allow plenty of preparation time & recovery. Additionally the reduced amount of league matches (14 games) would in my opinion.
2. Hire professional coaches and full teams to condition these players to their best ability.
3. Selection of squads. This opinion will be contentious but I’ll give my view here. For starters each squad should comprise of no more than 40 players. Here’s the catch however. The entire squads have to be made up from U25 with the exception of 5 marquee players that are allowed to be over this age group. Coaches can therefore decide how they wish to spread that experience (ie props). No foreign players allowed in any capacity.
4. Rip up the current regional squad system and employ a draft policy instead similar to the NFL. Set the draft picking based on league performance by each region the previous year with lowest picking first and highest placed last. Set the number of picks allowed each year. Allow a similar trade system between regions to allow them to negotiate deals to accommodate their own requirements. In order for this system to work however it would require Regions to be severally be limited on import players and additionally set a limit to the allowable contracted players within a squad (no more than 40 for example). This would limit regions to sign up more than their allowed allotment of talent.
5. Contracts – No player should be on more than a 1 year contract per premiership club. Also reduce the salary structure so the incentive is not an income based league. Instead redirect those funds into better equipping those players to become full time professionals. It probably would end with large amounts of over 25’s plying their trade abroad (ie England lower divisions) but these costs would not be maintained by the Union and if we are being perfectly honest semi pro’s who cannot cut it at regional level shouldn’t be plying their trade in a league to nurture talent.
6. Free movement – Assuming Regions are hit by injury crisis or player strikes and have to dip into the league for resources allow players from any side to be selected without regional obligation. In return compensation fees to be paid by the regions in these instances to either the Clubs involved or the Union.
7. Return of the British and Irish Cup – Allow the top 4 to enter the B&I Cup for player development purposes. It also will give coaches and fans something to measure their progress coming up against more full time players. Regions would then be able to see in which young players are able to cope with this standard over time. Moving forward I would look at a 10 year plan to potentially make these also our Challenge Cup entries for Europe.
8. No relegation – There should be no relegation in this league. All leagues under this league should be totally unpaid and amateur in existence but still contain the usual promotion and relegation tiers.
9. Drop the affiliation between the Regions and Premiership Clubs – Allow a more fluid concept that does not draw teams at Premiership level into set districts. This goes back to free player movement but also allows these franchises to be not regionally branded.


Granted this would be a massive shake up and require a raft of changes that probably a lot of semi pro players wouldn’t be happy about but I believe that product would result in the creation of purpose built players for regional rugby. You might be asking why I have excluded 25+ players but the reality is that while there are occasional late bloomers, it is senseless to spend years of investment of player development on people who will likely only then have very short professional careers. For me this setup will ensure the generation of future players for generations.

What are your thoughts?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 13 Nov 2015, 10:47 am

I think you might be a little disappointed with your wishes, but hey it looks as though your ring fencing one might be answered. Take a read of this as to what is happening with the prem next season:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-premiership-set-enlarged-12-9417124

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat 14 Nov 2015, 9:26 pm

Fully amateur WP with the A sides being the next tier up to the Pros?
"The Arms Park-based region currently employ no fewer than 65 players at senior and Academy level.
They plan to cut that figure back drastically for next season, by having 38-40 senior players, supported by a group of Academy youngsters."
Wonder what this means for the Cardiff WP team?

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Post by wayne Sat 14 Nov 2015, 9:55 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:For me the Premiership is not fit for purpose.  We still have a semi pro league that is run on the basis that certain clubs still prioritise their own success above providing players ready for regional rugby.

For me the key areas to address are as follows:
1. Reduce teams to 8 with matches to be played 2 weeks apart.  This would give teams a longer training schedule prior to matches to make sure players are recovered and prepared for the next match.  A lot of players at this level do not play full time and have jobs so this will allow plenty of preparation time & recovery.  Additionally the reduced amount of league matches (14 games) would in my opinion.
2. Hire professional coaches and full teams to condition these players to their best ability.
3. Selection of squads.   This opinion will be contentious but I’ll give my view here.  For starters each squad should comprise of no more than 40 players.  Here’s the catch however.   The entire squads have to be made up from U25 with the exception of 5 marquee players that are allowed to be over this age group.  Coaches can therefore decide how they wish to spread that experience (ie props).   No foreign players allowed in any capacity.
4. Rip up the current regional squad system and employ a draft policy instead similar to the NFL.  Set the draft picking based on league performance by each region the previous year with lowest picking first and highest placed last.  Set the number of picks allowed each year.  Allow a similar trade system between regions to allow them to negotiate deals to accommodate their own requirements.  In order for this system to work however it would require Regions to be severally be limited on import players and additionally set a limit to the allowable contracted players within a squad (no more than 40 for example).  This would limit regions to sign up more than their allowed allotment of talent.  
5. Contracts – No player should be on more than a 1 year contract per premiership club.  Also reduce the salary structure so the incentive is not an income based league.  Instead redirect those funds into better equipping those players to become full time professionals.  It probably would end with large amounts of over 25’s plying their trade abroad (ie England lower divisions) but these costs would not be maintained by the Union and if we are being perfectly honest semi pro’s who cannot cut it at regional level shouldn’t be plying their trade in a league to nurture talent.  
6. Free movement – Assuming Regions are hit by injury crisis or player strikes and have to dip into the league for resources allow players from any side to be selected without  regional obligation.  In return compensation fees to be paid by the regions in these instances to either the Clubs involved or the Union.
7. Return of the British and Irish Cup – Allow the top 4 to enter the B&I Cup for player development purposes.  It also will give coaches and fans something to measure their progress coming up against more full time players.  Regions would then be able to see in which young players are able to cope with this standard over time.  Moving forward I would look at a 10 year plan to potentially make these also our Challenge Cup entries for Europe.
8. No relegation – There should be no relegation in this league.   All leagues under this league should be totally unpaid and amateur in existence but still contain the usual promotion and relegation tiers.  
9. Drop the affiliation between the Regions and Premiership Clubs – Allow a more fluid concept that does not draw teams at Premiership level into set districts.  This goes back to free player movement but also allows these franchises to be not regionally branded.


Granted this would be a massive shake up and require a raft of changes that probably a lot of semi pro players wouldn’t be happy about but I believe that product would result in the creation of purpose built players for regional rugby.  You might be asking why I have excluded 25+ players but the reality is that while there are occasional late bloomers, it is senseless to spend years of investment of player development on people who will likely only then have very short professional careers.  For me this setup will ensure the generation of future players for generations.

What are your thoughts?
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:18 pm

wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

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Post by Stone Motif Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:36 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:For me the Premiership is not fit for purpose.  We still have a semi pro league that is run on the basis that certain clubs still prioritise their own success above providing players ready for regional rugby.

For me the key areas to address are as follows:
1. Reduce teams to 8 with matches to be played 2 weeks apart.  This would give teams a longer training schedule prior to matches to make sure players are recovered and prepared for the next match.  A lot of players at this level do not play full time and have jobs so this will allow plenty of preparation time & recovery.  Additionally the reduced amount of league matches (14 games) would in my opinion.
2. Hire professional coaches and full teams to condition these players to their best ability.
3. Selection of squads.   This opinion will be contentious but I’ll give my view here.  For starters each squad should comprise of no more than 40 players.  Here’s the catch however.   The entire squads have to be made up from U25 with the exception of 5 marquee players that are allowed to be over this age group.  Coaches can therefore decide how they wish to spread that experience (ie props).   No foreign players allowed in any capacity.
4. Rip up the current regional squad system and employ a draft policy instead similar to the NFL.  Set the draft picking based on league performance by each region the previous year with lowest picking first and highest placed last.  Set the number of picks allowed each year.  Allow a similar trade system between regions to allow them to negotiate deals to accommodate their own requirements.  In order for this system to work however it would require Regions to be severally be limited on import players and additionally set a limit to the allowable contracted players within a squad (no more than 40 for example).  This would limit regions to sign up more than their allowed allotment of talent.  
5. Contracts – No player should be on more than a 1 year contract per premiership club.  Also reduce the salary structure so the incentive is not an income based league.  Instead redirect those funds into better equipping those players to become full time professionals.  It probably would end with large amounts of over 25’s plying their trade abroad (ie England lower divisions) but these costs would not be maintained by the Union and if we are being perfectly honest semi pro’s who cannot cut it at regional level shouldn’t be plying their trade in a league to nurture talent.  
6. Free movement – Assuming Regions are hit by injury crisis or player strikes and have to dip into the league for resources allow players from any side to be selected without  regional obligation.  In return compensation fees to be paid by the regions in these instances to either the Clubs involved or the Union.
7. Return of the British and Irish Cup – Allow the top 4 to enter the B&I Cup for player development purposes.  It also will give coaches and fans something to measure their progress coming up against more full time players.  Regions would then be able to see in which young players are able to cope with this standard over time.  Moving forward I would look at a 10 year plan to potentially make these also our Challenge Cup entries for Europe.
8. No relegation – There should be no relegation in this league.   All leagues under this league should be totally unpaid and amateur in existence but still contain the usual promotion and relegation tiers.  
9. Drop the affiliation between the Regions and Premiership Clubs – Allow a more fluid concept that does not draw teams at Premiership level into set districts.  This goes back to free player movement but also allows these franchises to be not regionally branded.


Granted this would be a massive shake up and require a raft of changes that probably a lot of semi pro players wouldn’t be happy about but I believe that product would result in the creation of purpose built players for regional rugby.  You might be asking why I have excluded 25+ players but the reality is that while there are occasional late bloomers, it is senseless to spend years of investment of player development on people who will likely only then have very short professional careers.  For me this setup will ensure the generation of future players for generations.

What are your thoughts?

You could have saved yourself a repetitive strain injury by recognising that Point 1 would bankrupt every team in the league.
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Post by Stone Motif Sat 14 Nov 2015, 10:38 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

Go on then Wayne, what exactly is the regional concept.

Better yet show me the WRU doc which explicitly states it.
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Post by wayne Sun 15 Nov 2015, 10:50 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

Go on then Wayne, what exactly is the regional concept.

Better yet show me the WRU doc which explicitly states it.
Considering the garbage you've written on the Pontypridd gone topic as well as most other topics in the last year or so, I could have added your name as well, it's not worth the bother, we've had over 10 years of Regional Rugby (at least we have in certain areas of the country) if you don't know it by now you never will.

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Post by Stone Motif Sun 15 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm

wayne wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

Go on then Wayne, what exactly is the regional concept.

Better yet show me the WRU doc which explicitly states it.
Considering the garbage you've written on the Pontypridd gone topic as well as most other topics in the last year or so, I could have added your name as well, it's not worth the bother, we've had over 10 years of Regional Rugby (at least we have in certain areas of the country) if you don't know it by now you never will.

A pretty childish response Wayne. You could have just said 'dunno' and 'I can't'.

It's called qualifying what you write, and it takes more than capitalising the odd inane word.
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Post by wayne Sun 15 Nov 2015, 12:41 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
wayne wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

Go on then Wayne, what exactly is the regional concept.

Better yet show me the WRU doc which explicitly states it.
Considering the garbage you've written on the Pontypridd gone topic as well as most other topics in the last year or so, I could have added your name as well, it's not worth the bother, we've had over 10 years of Regional Rugby (at least we have in certain areas of the country) if you don't know it by now you never will.

A pretty childish response Wayne. You could have just said 'dunno' and 'I can't'.

It's called qualifying what you write, and it takes more than capitalising the odd inane word.
The problem for you is I do know, now how would it go? I would educate you and your response would either be a  Doh or a laughing  so no I wouldn't bother because it would go over or through your head, as I said we've had over 10 years of it in certain parts of this country, if you don't know it by now you never will.
Anyway why are you at home why aren't you on your way to supporting your team.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sun 15 Nov 2015, 6:42 pm

wayne wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
wayne wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

Go on then Wayne, what exactly is the regional concept.

Better yet show me the WRU doc which explicitly states it.
Considering the garbage you've written on the Pontypridd gone topic as well as most other topics in the last year or so, I could have added your name as well, it's not worth the bother, we've had over 10 years of Regional Rugby (at least we have in certain areas of the country) if you don't know it by now you never will.

A pretty childish response Wayne. You could have just said 'dunno' and 'I can't'.

It's called qualifying what you write, and it takes more than capitalising the odd inane word.
The problem for you is I do know, now how would it go? I would educate you and your response would either be a  Doh or a laughing  so no I wouldn't bother because it would go over or through your head, as I said we've had over 10 years of it in certain parts of this country, if you don't know it by now you never will.
Anyway why are you at home why aren't you on your way to supporting your team.

Seems longer than that with all the arguing and the bickering.

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Post by Stone Motif Sun 15 Nov 2015, 6:52 pm

wayne wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
wayne wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
wayne wrote:
As there are more clauses in this than there are in the RSA, you have less chance of this being agreed on, than of Dave understanding the Regional concept. laughing

Ouch.

Go on then Wayne, what exactly is the regional concept.

Better yet show me the WRU doc which explicitly states it.
Considering the garbage you've written on the Pontypridd gone topic as well as most other topics in the last year or so, I could have added your name as well, it's not worth the bother, we've had over 10 years of Regional Rugby (at least we have in certain areas of the country) if you don't know it by now you never will.

A pretty childish response Wayne. You could have just said 'dunno' and 'I can't'.

It's called qualifying what you write, and it takes more than capitalising the odd inane word.
The problem for you is I do know, now how would it go? I would educate you and your response would either be a  Doh or a laughing  so no I wouldn't bother because it would go over or through your head, as I said we've had over 10 years of it in certain parts of this country, if you don't know it by now you never will.
Anyway why are you at home why aren't you on your way to supporting your team.

Jesus wept. It's like a bad impression of Lord Dowlais.
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Post by GavinDragon Mon 16 Nov 2015, 6:07 am

Did Jesus really weep Stone, really? I suppose if he did the current mindset of some Welsh rugby fans would be a fair reason to.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 16 Nov 2015, 2:51 pm

Stone Motif wrote:esus wept. It's like a bad impression of Lord Dowlais.

Insults after insults, that's all it is with you on here stone, no wonder nobody takes what you say seriously.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 16 Nov 2015, 3:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:esus wept. It's like a bad impression of Lord Dowlais.

Insults after insults, that's all it is with you on here stone, no wonder nobody takes what you say seriously.

picard

Isn't that an insult?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 16 Nov 2015, 4:37 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:esus wept. It's like a bad impression of Lord Dowlais.

Insults after insults, that's all it is with you on here stone, no wonder nobody takes what you say seriously.

picard

Isn't that an insult?

He never adds anything constructive though. He always just dismisses everyone one else's opinion, and he always comes across in a condescending manner.

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Post by Stone Motif Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:41 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Did Jesus really weep Stone, really? I suppose if he did the current mindset of some Welsh rugby fans would be a fair reason to.

Yeah let's all be more regional to cheer him up. Nobody can tell me what a region is, or what one is supposed to do, but we must must be more regional.
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Post by Stone Motif Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:esus wept. It's like a bad impression of Lord Dowlais.

Insults after insults, that's all it is with you on here stone, no wonder nobody takes what you say seriously.

picard

Get her!
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Post by Stone Motif Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:esus wept. It's like a bad impression of Lord Dowlais.

Insults after insults, that's all it is with you on here stone, no wonder nobody takes what you say seriously.

picard

Isn't that an insult?

He never adds anything constructive though. He always just dismisses everyone one else's opinion, and he always comes across in a condescending manner.

That's funny, if you scroll up and (heaven forfend) read my first post on this thread, there I am Constructively pointing out that a league of eight teams might not be financially viable.

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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 7:29 am

Stone Motif wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:Did Jesus really weep Stone, really? I suppose if he did the current mindset of some Welsh rugby fans would be a fair reason to.

Yeah let's all be more regional to cheer him up. Nobody can tell me what a region is, or what one is supposed to do, but we must must be more regional.

IMO a region is a rugby team who represent, in name and in action, an entire geographical area - one bigger than any club/town/village it used to.

And what could be done to be more "regional", well in all honesty the Ospreys couldnt do much more. The Scarlets think they were already a region and have good ties with llandovery carmarthen etc. Blues paid to standalone so perhaps we shouldnt judge them with the same stick and then that leaves us.

I think the NGD do a great deal in the region. We have very good ties with the clubs in Gwent, our PS side are playing there, the community team do a heck of a lot in north and south gwent and the marketing messages #menofgwent and #suftmog have well and truly stuck amongst the fans who attend games.

I would like to see any additional PS/A sides played around the region but with entry to these games included in the ST price. I do like the iidea that the PS side use club socks baa baa style.

I also think one Pro 12 game (zebre or treviso) could be played at EXP. It would take some planning in trms of budget as you would have to factor in that one less game into the prices of boxes and ST's but I think it should be thought of as an investment in drawing more fans from the wider region. Its attendance should be measured and seen if it is resulting in any additional attendances from north gwent. If after a few seasons it doesnt then pull it.

Ultimately I would love to see some Ebbw Vale based Tony Brown equivalent ready to step up and pump money into the Dragons so that old Newport RFC fans can't keep throwing the fact that Ebbw's owners pulled out in fans faces when they call for more regionalism.

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:29 am

GavinDragon wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:Did Jesus really weep Stone, really? I suppose if he did the current mindset of some Welsh rugby fans would be a fair reason to.

Yeah let's all be more regional to cheer him up. Nobody can tell me what a region is, or what one is supposed to do, but we must must be more regional.

IMO
I think
I would like to see
I also think
Ultimately I would love to see

Says it all
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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:37 am

Impressive rebuttle their Stone clap

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:01 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Impressive rebuttle their Stone clap

Sorry I'll dumb it down a shade.

You shouldn't have to throw up a subjective wish list to illustrate what a region is and what it's supposed to do. That you can't, nor anyone else let alone the WRU, illustrates something seriously wrong with the format that's been imposed on pro rugby in Wales.
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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:08 pm

so what would you like to see?

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:17 pm

GavinDragon wrote:so what would you like to see?

It's not about what I'd 'like to see' but about identifying the model or models that best enable Welsh professional rugby to be successful.
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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:31 pm

which you think are...

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Post by Welshmushroom Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:40 pm


[/quote]

You could have saved yourself a repetitive strain injury by recognising that Point 1 would bankrupt every team in the league.[/quote]

Stone, clearly this model would have to be partly funded by WRU coffers. However you haven't really read my points. I'm currently suggesting players receive substantially reduced payments in this league. Currently players in the Premiership can make a fair wedge of income. I'm suggesting all that stops thus requiring less money to run the aforementioned clubs.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:00 pm

We(WRU) seriously need to up the anti with the Welsh prem, get it more marketed, show more of it around Wales, put more of it on the tele. Lets raise the bar for the Welsh prem, lets sets the standards higher, if we get the Welsh prem players playing at a better level, then there would be no need to import average NWQ players for the regions.

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

GavinDragon wrote:which you think are...

Point missed, but in the context of this thread cutting the cord between the pro teams and the premiership, making anything below pro level fully amateur and concentrating on getting the pro A sides into regular competition with the English A sides.
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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:13 pm

You could have saved yourself a repetitive strain injury by recognising that Point 1 would bankrupt every team in the league.[/quote]

Stone,  clearly this model would have to be partly funded by WRU coffers.  However you haven't really read my points.  I'm currently suggesting players receive substantially reduced payments in this league.  Currently players in the Premiership can make a fair wedge of income.  I'm suggesting all that stops thus requiring less money to run the aforementioned clubs. [/quote]

Yeah chucking money into a competition that should be amateur, great idea.
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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

No point ignored, to obtain some ideas from you rather than your usual barbs.

And actually I agree with all you say above

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:We(WRU) seriously need to up the anti with the Welsh prem, get it more marketed, show more of it around Wales, put more of it on the tele. Lets raise the bar for the Welsh prem, lets sets the standards higher, if we get the Welsh prem players playing at a better level, then there would be no need to import average NWQ players for the regions.

Laugh here we go
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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:We(WRU) seriously need to up the anti with the Welsh prem, get it more marketed, show more of it around Wales, put more of it on the tele. Lets raise the bar for the Welsh prem, lets sets the standards higher, if we get the Welsh prem players playing at a better level, then there would be no need to import average NWQ players for the regions.

Either make it amateur as SM has suggested.

Or switch to summer months which should increase crowds and maybe even draw in a small TV deal with s4c or something.

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:20 pm

GavinDragon wrote:No point ignored, to obtain some ideas from you rather than your usual barbs.

And actually I agree with all you say above

I didn't say you ignored anything.

I'm not running the WRU or the pro teams, so what I think is as irrelevant as the OP.

What's the point in 'regions' if all the above come into effect?
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:24 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We(WRU) seriously need to up the anti with the Welsh prem, get it more marketed, show more of it around Wales, put more of it on the tele. Lets raise the bar for the Welsh prem, lets sets the standards higher, if we get the Welsh prem players playing at a better level, then there would be no need to import average NWQ players for the regions.

Either make it amateur as SM has suggested.

Or switch to summer months which should increase crowds and maybe even draw in a small TV deal with s4c or something.

It would be disastrous to make the Welsh prem fully amateur, if anything it should be fully pro, but I recognise that the clubs do not have enough money, we should keep in semi-pro for now and try and grow the product. Yes, lets get S4C showing some games, lets get the interest in the public back in the local derbies. Lets drum up interest for inter regional games, lets get big name companies more involved, lets not forget, if more games are on the tele, then more companies will want their names on the tele as well. Lets get the standard of our prem players higher, and lets use those players instead of average NWQ players in the regions.

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Post by wayne Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:25 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:which you think are...

Point missed, but in the context of this thread cutting the cord between the pro teams and the premiership, making anything below pro level fully amateur and concentrating on getting the pro A sides into regular competition with the English A sides.
Now this I can agree with to a certain extent, as long as the Premiership is Semi Pro, it is below this level that should be truly amateur, and I know that there are teams in level 2 and 3, who are paying players, it was because of these payments that I stopped coaching after achieving level 2 qualifications with the WRU, it caused an influx of mercenaries in a local club to the detriment of local boys.
Your A sides regular competition with the English is hopefully coming very soon and can only help the standards improve.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:25 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We(WRU) seriously need to up the anti with the Welsh prem, get it more marketed, show more of it around Wales, put more of it on the tele. Lets raise the bar for the Welsh prem, lets sets the standards higher, if we get the Welsh prem players playing at a better level, then there would be no need to import average NWQ players for the regions.

Laugh here we go


The same witty retorts as usual stone. Why can't you just debate properly instead of insulting ?

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We(WRU) seriously need to up the anti with the Welsh prem, get it more marketed, show more of it around Wales, put more of it on the tele. Lets raise the bar for the Welsh prem, lets sets the standards higher, if we get the Welsh prem players playing at a better level, then there would be no need to import average NWQ players for the regions.

Either make it amateur as SM has suggested.

Or switch to summer months which should increase crowds and maybe even draw in a small TV deal with s4c or something.

It would be disastrous to make the Welsh prem fully amateur, if anything it should be fully pro, but I recognise that the clubs do not have enough money, we should keep in semi-pro for now and try and grow the product. Yes, lets get S4C showing some games, lets get the interest in the public back in the local derbies. Lets drum up interest for inter regional games, lets get big name companies more involved, lets not forget, if more games are on the tele, then more companies will want their names on the tele as well. Lets get the standard of our prem players higher, and lets use those players instead of average NWQ players in the regions.

What's the weather like in this land of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows? Never mind if it's raining just like here in the real world, I'm sure there's a convenient money tree nearby that will offer shelter.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:36 pm

Stone Motif wrote:What's the weather like in this land of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows? Never mind if it's raining just like here in the real world, I'm sure there's a convenient money tree nearby that will offer shelter.

picard

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Post by XR Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:42 pm

Welsh premiership should be purely amateur.

With A sides coming in this will likely become a reality in a few years.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:45 pm

gcBlues wrote:Welsh premiership should be purely amateur.

Why ?

We need the prem as a tool to develop players just having "A" sides will not be enough. What we need to do is reduce the amount of average NWQ players we have here in Wales.

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:What's the weather like in this land of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows? Never mind if it's raining just like here in the real world, I'm sure there's a convenient money tree nearby that will offer shelter.

picard


It's a bit rich insisting we debate something as daft as paying players not capable of playing professional rugby (indeed that are far worse in many cases than 'average NWQ players', though they would cost more to employ for fully pro teams), and then start chucking emoticons around like confetti*

*or as it's known in Lord Dowlais world, money
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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
gcBlues wrote:Welsh premiership should be purely amateur.

Why ?

We need the prem as a tool to develop players just having "A" sides will not be enough. What we need to do is reduce the amount of average NWQ players we have here in Wales.

Put your money where your mouth is LD. List the players in each pro squad that are average in your opinion and who from the Welsh prem teams, not including those from the academies,that should replace them.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:54 pm

There are not any from the prem at them minute, not any I know of anyway. That is why I am saying we need to improve the prem, so that these players will be there.


The thing is stone, when you are on your high horse demanding that we need NWQ players to plug the holes when internationals are away and the what not, you are talking rubbish.

There are three countries I could point out to you that do not use non qualified players to pad out their club/franchise squads, they are not all that bad either, I cannot quite put my finger on it but the three countries have won more than one WC each, they are constantly ranked  in the top 6 in the world, and were 1,2,3 ranked for most of the last and this decade. You can find them in another hemisphere.

Hmmmmmm....... I wonder how they manage ?


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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:02 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:No point ignored, to obtain some ideas from you rather than your usual barbs.

And actually I agree with all you say above

I didn't say you ignored anything.

I'm not running the WRU or the pro teams, so what I think is as irrelevant as the OP.

What's the point in 'regions' if all the above come into effect?

Whats the point in Clubs it all the above come into effect?

Your response: clubs like Newport have paid for pro rugby so why shouldn't they stand alone

My response: they have also had WRU funding for 12 years allowing them to continue as a pro team. They had that funding on the previso that they were a representative region. Even one of NRFC's own directors said when Newport was added to the name that it would be a team representing Gwent http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/4610131.BROWN_S_BACK___AND_IT_S_NOW_NEWPORT_AND_GWENT_DRAGONS/.

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:There are not any from the prem at them minute, not any I know of anyway. That is why I am saying we need to improve the prem, so that these players will be there.


The thing is stone, when you are on your high horse demanding that we need NWQ p t internationals are away and the what not, you are talking rubbish.

There are three countries I could point out to you that do not use non qualified players to pad out their club/franchise squads, they are not all that bad either, I cannot quite put my finger on it but the three countries have won more than one WC each, they are constantly ranked  in the top 6 in the world, and were 1,2,3 ranked for most of the last and this decade. You can find them in another hemisphere.

Hmmmmmm....... I wonder how they manage ?

Put up or shut up Lord D. Go on just do the Dragons if you want, how hard can it be?



What the F New Zealand, Australia and South Africa have to do with it I cannot fathom. Apart from that being where most of our average NWQs come from of course.


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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:16 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:There are not any from the prem at them minute, not any I know of anyway. That is why I am saying we need to improve the prem, so that these players will be there.


The thing is stone, when you are on your high horse demanding that we need NWQ p t internationals are away and the what not, you are talking rubbish.

There are three countries I could point out to you that do not use non qualified players to pad out their club/franchise squads, they are not all that bad either, I cannot quite put my finger on it but the three countries have won more than one WC each, they are constantly ranked  in the top 6 in the world, and were 1,2,3 ranked for most of the last and this decade. You can find them in another hemisphere.

Hmmmmmm....... I wonder how they manage ?

Put up or shut up Lord D. Go on just do the Dragons if you want, how hard can it be?



What the F New Zealand, Australia and South Africa have to do with it I cannot fathom. Apart from that being where most of our average NWQs come from of course. We could just overlook of course that those countries have a greater genetic talent pool,and also that in two of those countries rugby

Pah. If you have said bigger playing population you would have had a credible point there. So tell me, what is it "genetically" that makes SA/NZ/AUS so much greater?

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Post by Stone Motif Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:19 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:There are not any from the prem at them minute, not any I know of anyway. That is why I am saying we need to improve the prem, so that these players will be there.


The thing is stone, when you are on your high horse demanding that we need NWQ p t internationals are away and the what not, you are talking rubbish.

There are three countries I could point out to you that do not use non qualified players to pad out their club/franchise squads, they are not all that bad either, I cannot quite put my finger on it but the three countries have won more than one WC each, they are constantly ranked  in the top 6 in the world, and were 1,2,3 ranked for most of the last and this decade. You can find them in another hemisphere.

Hmmmmmm....... I wonder how they manage ?



Put up or shut up Lord D. Go on just do the Dragons if you want, how hard can it be?



What the F New Zealand, Australia and South Africa have to do with it I cannot fathom. Apart from that being where most of our average NWQs come from of course. We could just overlook of course that those countries have a greater genetic talent pool,and also that in two of those countries rugby

Pah. If you have said bigger playing population you would have had a credible point there. So tell me, what is it "genetically" that makes SA/NZ/AUS so much greater?
A large population of Polynesian heritage just for starters. Don't be a lemon.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:20 pm

Stone Motif wrote:Put up or shut up Lord D. Go on just do the Dragons if you want, how hard can it be?

I have already told you, there are not any in the prem at the moment, that is why we need to make the prem better FFS.

Also New Zealand, Australia and South Africa have everything to do with it, because not only can they manage to put out teams without any non qualified players, they can afford to let players that are not good enough to leave and come and make a living in our teams, if they can produce these players then so can we. Also, I bet Argentina will not have non qualified players in their teams as they start to develop more.

You are talking rubbish as usual, if other countries can do it, then so can we.

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Post by GavinDragon Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:21 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:There are not any from the prem at them minute, not any I know of anyway. That is why I am saying we need to improve the prem, so that these players will be there.


The thing is stone, when you are on your high horse demanding that we need NWQ p t internationals are away and the what not, you are talking rubbish.

There are three countries I could point out to you that do not use non qualified players to pad out their club/franchise squads, they are not all that bad either, I cannot quite put my finger on it but the three countries have won more than one WC each, they are constantly ranked  in the top 6 in the world, and were 1,2,3 ranked for most of the last and this decade. You can find them in another hemisphere.

Hmmmmmm....... I wonder how they manage ?



Put up or shut up Lord D. Go on just do the Dragons if you want, how hard can it be?



What the F New Zealand, Australia and South Africa have to do with it I cannot fathom. Apart from that being where most of our average NWQs come from of course. We could just overlook of course that those countries have a greater genetic talent pool,and also that in two of those countries rugby

Pah. If you have said bigger playing population you would have had a credible point there. So tell me, what is it "genetically" that makes SA/NZ/AUS so much greater?
A large population of Polynesian heritage just for starters. Don't be a lemon.

Dont see too many Polynesians in SA side? Who were beaten by Japan in the WC as you will remember. Still not sure of your point?

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