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Who should be next England coach (continued)

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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:03 am

Continuation of the original thread from nlpnlp:
I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job? I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics. Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad. So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith. Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.
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Post by cb Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:58 pm

Love to see Wayne Smith involved but I am not sure he should be "Manager" since of lot of time would be required on non-coaching work.  Perhaps someone above him, with Smith focussing 100% on coaching.

Of course he seems unavailable?

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Post by englandglory4ever Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:43 pm

I'd go with Jake White with the stipulation that he must choose an all English support team unless he had a blinking good reason not to. Eg, Shaun Edwards defence, Borthwick, Baxter or Cockerill forwards, and yes maybe Catt for the backs. England's attack had improved.

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Post by hugehandoff Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:28 pm

I heard a rumour that Farrell will be caretaker for the 6Ns and presumably after England finish a reasonable 2nd he will be offered the job long term. Doh

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Post by jamesandimac Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:12 pm

hugehandoff wrote:I heard a rumour that Farrell will be caretaker for the 6Ns and presumably after England finish a reasonable 2nd he will be offered the job long term. Doh

I heard that rumour too. Quite disappointing really. I assume its because it is mid season and every other Englishman is tied into their clubs, therefore it makes sense to have a caretaker coach, although the choice of Farrell is pretty disgusting considering he has been the brunt of a lot of the criticisms.

If it is true, I wouldn't be surprised to see Wood named as captain and Ford as the starting 10, with Barrett staying in at 12.

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Post by hugehandoff Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:17 pm

I think we are all keen for a proper new appointment, but Brian Moore writes today it is better to get it right than rush into an appointment if it is proving a challenge to land a quality head coach. The whole thing is proving to be a farce and of course the approaches to the other quality candidates should have taken place during the last weeks of the RWC when they were in the country and before they had started their next roles. My confidence in the RFU is pretty low currently.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:30 pm

Not sure it would have been very professional or welcomed to apporach other countries staff if they were still in the competition.

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Post by TJ Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:37 pm

I think a caretaker for this 6N is a good idea - then get who you want not who is available.

Baxter? Home grown, done good work with Exeter - but no international experience

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Post by TightHEAD Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:55 pm

Surely the only way for someone like Baxter to get experience is for him to link up with an international team, could he do both roles (Exeter and England forwards coach?)

If its true about A.Farrell then that is very disappointing news.
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Post by sad_gimp Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:15 pm

I'd rather wait and get someone in time for the summer tests.

Only concern is that we end up winning the 6n with Farrell et al....although it feels kinda wrong to be concerned about winning.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:44 pm

I wouldn't bother with a caretaker. You just waste a 6 Nations that way. If the RFU can't land their man by Christmas then heads should roll.

Andy Farrell is not part of the solution for my money.

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Post by belovedfrosties Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:50 pm

The first thing that needs resolving is the top of the RFU, who has the power to get rid of Ritchie and Andrew? They've overseen this period of shambolic appointments yet have not seen any of the criticism. The whole top end management of the RFU needs redoing, get Woodward in. I know he divides opinion and he does my head in on more than the odd occasion but he would be very good at the top of the RFU. I'm sure part of the reason that top coaches are distancing themselves from the england job is because of the higher ups.

England are at their lowest ebb, still have a decent team, have the best resources and facilities of any rugby nation and no-one wants the job - says it all really.

In answer the the above question, i'd have taken Eddie Jones, had Borthwick as lineout coach, Rowntree to specialise soley on the Scrum. Wayne Smith for backs , Gustard for defence and then someone for overall forwards coach, maybe baxter (though he wouldn't leave exeter for that position)

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Post by king_carlos Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:50 pm

If we can't get our man in time for the 6 Nations then I would be happy to see a caretaker coach and team in place rather than a rushed decision made on long term appointment. For all the fuss about needing an internationally experienced head coach I am yet to see a name mentioned who I would be overawed with. As such it might be worth looking to get international experience throughout the set-up rather than mainly in the top job.

For what it's worth I would also be very happy for the RFU to sign Wayne Smith as assistant coach now even if he wouldn't start the job until after his year sabbatical. I rate him that highly as a coach that I would rather that than any opportunity to get him involved for the longer term be lost.

By most accounts he isn't that interested in a head coach role so the assistant job to the right coach might appeal to him. If working with the right head coach he would still be allowed a large scope in influencing how the side play but wouldn't have to deal with the media work etc that he seems disinterested in.

Head coach - Baxter
Assistant/backs coach - Wayne Smith
Defence coach - Edwards
Set piece/forwards coach - Rowntree?

Personally I would be quite happy with a head coach from the Prem if they could secure two names such as Smith and Edwards as their lieutenants.

If Smith couldn't be secured until the start of 2017 then we could see Catt stay until then as backs coach. Our attack has been inconsistent under Catt but when we have selected a back line who can catch and pass it started looking much better quite quickly.

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Post by belovedfrosties Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:52 pm

Really don't want Edwards involved in the England set up tbh

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:37 pm

hugehandoff wrote:I heard a rumour that Farrell will be caretaker for the 6Ns and presumably after England finish a reasonable 2nd he will be offered the job long term. Doh


picard picard I really, really hope that is not true. Though i did notice that it was only Lancaster that lost his job, but the rest have been retained. In other words the book stops with Lancaster. and the rest don't matter. picard

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Post by belovedfrosties Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:07 pm

Seems to have been some development recently. Eddie jones is now 3/1 ON to be the next coach, having previously ruled himself out it seems like the RFU have thrown the cheque book at him.

I'd be happiest with Jones out of all the available candidates.

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Post by Gwlad Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:12 pm

Its the poison chalice job in World rugby

Ironically with Jones, they might just do well in the 6 Nations just like Wales did post 2007 RWC.

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Post by nathan Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:30 pm

Gwlad wrote:Its the poison chalice job in World rugby

Ironically with Jones, they might just do well in the 6 Nations just like Wales did post 2007 RWC.
No it's not.... Stop being an arse

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Post by kingelderfield Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:36 pm

I think Jones would be a good head to build a group around, a group of premier coaches that is.

I can't see Smith ever joining that pool of coaches unless perhaps in some sort of coaching advisory role.

If Jones were to take the role, I can't see him last more than a couple of years. It's just not been his thing to stay beyond his sell by date - not since the Oz job that is. And I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, as long as we plan for such a succession from day one.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:49 am

kingelderfield wrote:I think Jones would be a good head to build a group around, a group of premier coaches that is.
I hear that a lot. What in Jones' career leads you to believe he is a good man to lead and develop a team of coaches? He didn't leave much behind in Australia or Japan.

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Post by kingelderfield Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:10 am

I imagine Bothwick gained some valuable experience.

Beyond that I couldn't say, however surely this is a real opportunity for others to tap his knowledge and gain international experience.

Succession planning has to start here.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:55 am

Eddie Jones has enough of a record for us to pretty sure that he woudl leave the job before RWC 19. Happy to use him as a consultant as SA did, but not Head Coach.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:46 pm

Certainly looking more like Jones. I'd be happy with him and Smith possibly part time.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:54 pm

Given Jones is liable to leave after a couple of years that should give the RFU even more incentive to try to get Smith on board for after his sabbatical. That way even if Eddie did do a runner we would have another coach with international experience still in the set-up.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:08 pm

Maybe get Baxter on part time also?

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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:42 pm

I'd be very happy with Baxter as forwards coach even if he is combining the role with his current at Exeter.

Does Baxter look after the Chiefs set-piece or is that dealt with by Rob Hunter? If he hasn't got experience there then a seperate set-piece coach may be necessary.

If Edwards isn't keen to get on-board as defence coach then next favourite Gustard also looks after Saracens forwards so could do work there when needed if Baxter wants to see out this season with Exeter. I believe he also doesn't deal with the set-piece however?

It wont be a popular statement given most want all the current coaches gone, but Rowntree is a coach I am slightly torn on. Our forwards were very poor at the RWC. However this seems largely down to how under powered they looked. If this was a tactic that Rowntree was unhappy with (something the review may show) then I wouldn't be adverse to him staying on board. Our forward play under Rowntree has been good for the much part and he also now has significant international experience after 8 years with England and 2 Lions tours.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:10 pm

Apart from the recent example of Graham Henry and Steve Hansen, has anyone been an assistant coach to a leading nation and then gone on to success as the top man?

I ask this because I keep seeing suggestions here and in the press about setting up a structure to groom English coaches under a recognized figurehead.

It sounds to me like we want to have our cake and eat it. Either our priority is getting someone to coach us to trophies, or we try and develop our domestic coaching base. Perhaps we can get both together, but that would just be happenstance, not something we can rely upon.

I don't see the point of thinking about hiring someone to get us winning again (Jones, White etc) and then asking them to adapt their coaching routines to achieve a totally different goal.

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Post by englandglory4ever Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:15 pm

The media have Jones as the front runner. Three comments from him in the Guardian today must already be causing AP owner's blood to boil. 1. Sam Burgess was badly managed by club and country. 2. England don't centrally contract their players. 3. 6Ns is a dour competition. If he gets the job then we will have WW3 between RFU and Clubs. Can't wait. It needs a blinking good shake up.

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Post by majesticimperialman Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:53 pm

Do you not think that on the first 2 points Jones may have a point?

On the 6ns nations though in my opinion hew is wrong, well and truly.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:55 pm

Steve Diamond. Tough and uncompromising but his players will go out and put their bodies on the line for him week in and week out. Hell he's even got the famously work shy Cipriani putting in a shift in defence. He's got a very good record of developing young players as well.

Combine Diamond with Gustard, Rowntree and a backs coach maybe Catt and that could work.

Baxter would be the ideal choice but he's ruled himself out and I think Eddie Jones is just paper talk.

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:30 am

I'm surprised Jones didn't mention Japan. They don't centrally contract players either.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:16 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Steve Diamond. Tough and uncompromising but his players will go out and put their bodies on the line for him week in and week out. Hell he's even got the famously work shy Cipriani putting in a shift in defence. He's got a very good record of developing young players as well.

Combine Diamond with Gustard, Rowntree and a backs coach maybe Catt and that could work.

Baxter would be the ideal choice but he's ruled himself out and I think Eddie Jones is just paper talk.

Yeah I was thinking about him Sam. That coaching team could work.

Dai Young with Wasps doing well also. But would we want a Welshman in charge Wink


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Post by majesticimperialman Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:16 pm

I don't know if this is already known, but is there a date set for who the next England coach will be named? officially that is? And will he who ever it will be. Be forced to keep the likes of Farrell, Rowntree, and Catt as his assistant coaches.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:47 pm

I thought this team was staying on temporarily for the 6n?

Wouldn't it be ironic if they smashed the 6n won the grand slam!

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Post by doctor_grey Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought this team was staying on temporarily for the 6n?

Wouldn't it be ironic if they smashed the 6n won the grand slam!
Well.............the temporary coach we had going into the last post-RWC (2011) Six Nations never left for four years.

BUt I do agree a temporary coaching staff is the best move at the moment.  Perhaps the coaching staff from one of the Premiership clubs could cover as a temporarty move?  At least then there wojuld be an existing staff used to working together rather than a group slapped together.  The club would have to find coaching cover for their matches during the Six Nations, but it might be a reasonable solution.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:45 pm


Mark Smith of the Newcastle Chronicle makes a very good point.

Some not considered like Dorian West forwards coach etc...

How about SCW back as Director with some of these young English guys as the coaches.

RFU chief executive Ian Ritchie seems to have backed himself into a corner when it comes to appointing Stuart Lancaster’s successor as England head coach.

His insistence that the candidate must have ‘international experience’ instantly ruled out virtually all of the Premiership contenders in one fell swoop.

Many of the leading overseas candidates have already said they don’t want the job, and those who remain have question marks hanging over their heads.

Some bookmakers yesterday suspended betting on Eddie Jones becoming the next red-rose supremo.

The Australian, whose stewardship of the Japanese national team during last month’s World Cup won him countless admirers, has already committed to joining South African Super Rugby franchise, the Stormers.

The RFU’s financial muscle means they can buy him out of that contract without Jones taking charge of a single Stormers game, but what would it say if England appointed a coach who has proven he will jump ship at the first sniff of a better offer?

His undeniably brilliant management of Japan’s World Cup campaign overlooks the fact they finished bottom of their Pacific Nations Cup campaign, and if Lancaster was criticised for fast-tracking rugby league imports, Jones wrote the book on that particular trend.

South Africa’s 2007 World Cup-winning coach Jake White seems the other name in the frame, going by media speculation.

His Montpellier side were thumped just a few hundred yards from Twickenham last Thursday when Harlequins ran them ragged in a European Challenge Cup game.

White has not coached an international match since 2007 and, even after a relatively successful spell with Australian Super Rugby side the Brumbies, is more renowned for implementing a boring, conservative game plan.

Given the hammering Lancaster took for dropping George Ford in favour of Owen Farrell during the World Cup, and for banking on Brad Barritt’s defensive qualities, it hardly seems a marriage which would get the English rugby heart pumping.

Wales coach Warren Gatland, New Zealand assistant Wayne Smith and Australia coach Michael Cheika have already said they don’t want to be considered, Cheika vocally advocating an English replacement.

The former Leinster coach said: “I just think there are good coaches coaching in the Premiership.

“Exeter’s Rob Baxter and the guys at Northampton (Jim Mallinder, Dorian West and Alex King), (Newcastle’s) Dean Richards... there are heaps of guys coaching the same England players on a day-to-day basis in the Premiership, who given the right support could do a really good job.

“There are a lot of guys who have good quality here. They just need to be given the chance.”

Alas, Ritchie and the RFU seem destined to shun the homegrown options, pinning their faith on costly overseas alternatives.


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Post by king_carlos Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:37 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought this team was staying on temporarily for the 6n?

Wouldn't it be ironic if they smashed the 6n won the grand slam!
Well.............the temporary coach we had going into the last post-RWC (2011) Six Nations never left for four years.

BUt I do agree a temporary coaching staff is the best move at the moment.  Perhaps the coaching staff from one of the Premiership clubs could cover as a temporarty move?  At least then there wojuld be an existing staff used to working together rather than a group slapped together.  The club would have to find coaching cover for their matches during the Six Nations, but it might be a reasonable solution.

Rowntree and Farrell were replaced by Baxter and Gustard for the Argentina tour in 2013 - during the Lions.

Admittedly it wasn't the biggest challenge given both sides were largely diluted but those two also worked with Catt during that tour.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:08 pm

I see the times are saying that the Stormers have asked for £700k for Eddie Jones to leave and become England coach.

If he does come...he needs to stay for 4 years AND its imperative that we have English coaches ready after that to take over.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:39 pm

We have English coaches now. I'm unsure why the RFU just won't interview and then select one

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Post by king_carlos Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:40 pm

If he stayed for 4 years I'd be very surprised!

£700k is a huge amount of money to pay out. If we are looking to throw out massive sums to get a big name then I'd much rather we offer it to Wayne Smith - even if he won't start working with us full time until 2017.

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Post by nathan Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:49 pm

Hold on a minute, everyone on here was saying the coach needed to have international experience, now folks are saying it should be an English coach?

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:09 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:..If he does come...he needs to stay for 4 years...
You can't insist on that. Even offering him a four year deal won't guarantee it. Aside from any wanderlust Jones might have himself, he suffered a minor stroke two years ago, so it isn't out of the question that health issues could resurface over a four year stint.

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Post by yappysnap Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:12 am

nathan wrote:Hold on a minute, everyone on here was saying the coach needed to have international experience, now folks are saying it should be an English coach?

Come on Nathan, if people can't keep changing their minds how can they always be right?

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:24 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see the times are saying that the Stormers have asked for £700k for Eddie Jones to leave and become England coach.

If he does come...he needs to stay for 4 years AND its imperative that we have English coaches ready after that to take over.
He just signed with Western Province.  I think he should stay where he is.  Let's pick our temporary coaching group for the Six Nations and figure out exactly what/who we want for the longer term.  No need to rush.

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Post by englandglory4ever Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:02 am

There is a good reason to rush. A new coach needs time to watch players and take in recommendations, etc. Before his first game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:11 am

Sounds like it's going to be Jones. Judging by his comments on England so far it does sounds as if he needs to watch some Premiership rugby.

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Post by blackcanelion Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:33 am

Interesting. Can't help feeling it's a bit of a poisoned chalice. If he makes it work more power to him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:36 am

Why a poisoned chalice?

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Post by TJ Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why a poisoned chalice?

Because your hands are tied by the "agreements" with the PRL, you are expected to win everything, the press will get on your back and the players are not as good as many think they are so you will always perform below expectations

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:55 am

I think its anything but a poisoned chalice.

A good strong and experience coach will have big funds behind him and a large player base...with some immensely talented kids coming through.




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