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Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

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Post by yappysnap Fri 20 Nov 2015, 7:24 am

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 15 Feb 2016, 10:33 am

fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs is and was a very good hooker. We'll find someone you rate in a white shirt eventually. Hows Billy doing now in your assessment? Would he get into any of the SA club teams yet?

Heard Zinny say he rates Faletau, Heaslip, Picamoles and Parisse above him. Thats just in the NH. I don't think there is anyone else. Hes a good player, he could be a great player if he lost 10kg but at the moment there are lots of players around who are better. The talk up after his Scotland carries was completely OTT.

I think they are hard to compare as Billy is a different kind of player than these guys (Picamoles is possibly the most similar). What Billy does he does extremely well, but hes not as rounded a player as those named (other than, well, literally..). Given that he keeps rumbling for the full 80 minutes all the time these days I don't actually think he should or needs to lose any more weight.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 15 Feb 2016, 10:41 am

Have to say I do much prefer starting with Marler and then using Mako as an impact sub, it makes better use of their strengths, early on you want the formers defensive reliability and then the latter when there's more broken field play.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 15 Feb 2016, 10:45 am

nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Now that Youngs is gone, Poolys next target of hate will be Robshaw. Watch it get more irrational and angst filled as time goes on Very Happy

No no no! Youngs is an extremely special case.

Robshaw is real honest pro and tries his heart out, I almost feel for him. He's just Mr Average, not really great at anything which is no bad thing. He's just going to have to move aside soon.
So your saying youngs isn't an honest pro and didn't try his heart out? Bit harsh to be honest.

What kind of person I am? I don't see what that comment has to do with rugby discussions and opinions on players.

I'm also unsure what Tom Youngs has to do with this.

Youngs has flaws in the basics for his position which is not good enough for England imo. Agree that Hartleys throwing was poor yesterday but his scrummaging is fantastic.

Robshaw, completley different case to Youngs. He's a 100% man and deserves respect. He does everything ok but nothing exceptional. He's a real honest pro but I think we need better to go the next level.

I find it odd that you'd bring up Youngs to have a go at me, just get over my dislike of him in an England jersey, it really matters little that Jones doesn't rate him either. Youngs is a good AP hooker and you're happy with him, that's all that should count.
You said youngs is a special case and so I was just pointing out that you seem to have a different set of standards. He would have to play 10% better than any other hooker in order to get the same praise from you.

It's the comments like you saying youngs isn't a 100% man and doesn't deserve respect which tells us all the sort of person you are.

Anyway, I'm not getting into the same argument with you because it's just tedious.

A special case as in his basics were nowhere near good enough to be a hooker for England. It's you that's bringing this up, not me.

I would never question Youngs commitment to the cause, of course he was 100% in everything he ever done in a white shirt, I would expect nothing less.

I have no issues with Youngs as a person, I don't know the guy. My only issues with him are his basic hooking abilities, which quite frankly are sub-standard.

If you can find any posts where I suggest Youngs is not a committed player, I'll be happy to apologise.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:14 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Have to say I do much prefer starting with Marler and then using Mako as an impact sub, it makes better use of their strengths, early on you want the formers defensive reliability and then the latter when there's more broken field play.

Yeah I agree.

Also I think once this 6n is over and the Summer tour comes to the fore...Hartley will find his place hard to hold if George keeps playing like he is.

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Post by Scottrf Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:17 am

Hartley is finding it hard to keep his club place so I think it's fair to say he should be struggling to keep his England place.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:17 am

lostinwales wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs is and was a very good hooker. We'll find someone you rate in a white shirt eventually. Hows Billy doing now in your assessment? Would he get into any of the SA club teams yet?

Heard Zinny say he rates Faletau, Heaslip, Picamoles and Parisse above him. Thats just in the NH. I don't think there is anyone else. Hes a good player, he could be a great player if he lost 10kg but at the moment there are lots of players around who are better. The talk up after his Scotland carries was completely OTT.

I think they are hard to compare as Billy is a different kind of player than these guys (Picamoles is possibly the most similar). What Billy does he does extremely well, but hes not as rounded a player as those named (other than, well, literally..).  Given that he keeps rumbling for the full 80 minutes all the time these days I don't actually think he should or needs to lose any more weight.

He carries yes and often breaks the gainline but not to the same level as say Parisse, Picamoles... he makes hard yards from everything as he often takes the ball from a standing start. If he lost a few kgs, well 10 to be fair he would be so much a better player.

Dean Richards players for 80 mins for all his caps, every player should be able to stay on the field for 80 mins. You can't lift Billy, lose 10kg and you probably could use him at the worst as a decoy. Every other eightman jumps.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:24 am

He doesn't need to lose weight FA.

Hes just champion. And with a better balanced back row and players supporting his breaks he will be a great player.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:28 am

fa0019 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs is and was a very good hooker. We'll find someone you rate in a white shirt eventually. Hows Billy doing now in your assessment? Would he get into any of the SA club teams yet?

Heard Zinny say he rates Faletau, Heaslip, Picamoles and Parisse above him. Thats just in the NH. I don't think there is anyone else. Hes a good player, he could be a great player if he lost 10kg but at the moment there are lots of players around who are better. The talk up after his Scotland carries was completely OTT.

I think they are hard to compare as Billy is a different kind of player than these guys (Picamoles is possibly the most similar). What Billy does he does extremely well, but hes not as rounded a player as those named (other than, well, literally..).  Given that he keeps rumbling for the full 80 minutes all the time these days I don't actually think he should or needs to lose any more weight.

He carries yes and often breaks the gainline but not to the same level as say Parisse, Picamoles... he makes hard yards from everything as he often takes the ball from a standing start. If he lost a few kgs, well 10 to be fair he would be so much a better player.

Dean Richards players for 80 mins for all his caps, every player should be able to stay on the field for 80 mins. You can't lift Billy, lose 10kg and you probably could use him at the worst as a decoy. Every other eightman jumps.

I do rate Billy although he is a guy who you have to make allowances for in the rest of your picks, line out being one (I wonder if they do or could use him as a lifter?). I'd bet he makes more hard yards than any of the others, and must really take a toll on defenders over 80 minutes. It's what hes best at and losing kilos isn't going to help that or turn him into Parisse sprinting down the wing.

However I was just thinking how he compares to one of the perennial hate figures on here, and that is Easter.

Now Easter is smarter ( Not that Billy isn't, I can't say, but Easter is smart), offloads more, is a decent lineout option and also specializes in working in heavy traffic. Both of them have good hands. Billy is probably better on the floor

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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:33 am

Calm down, calm down dears. England started with a good team that ground down the opposition so that they were ready for a good hiding in the last 20 minutes. The subs came on and played a significantly weaker tired team than the starters did. MV Vs Marler, I suspect Eddie has done some clever analysis that says that normally more scrums occur in the second half than the first half.. Therefore having your better scrummagers play in the second half will give you an edge. (Just a guess). I will say this. England's play is improving and the subs do appear to add pace. Robshaw is being left behind as the team evolves, he is looking slow, a poor carrier and his tackling is not decisive. His days are looking numbered but he will remain for a while yet as the younger tyros get experience..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:36 am

Lost in Wales

Would you not agree that long term having Itoje at 6 and Clifford at 7 brings a lot more balance to that back row where they make up for Billy's deficiencies?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:38 am

Do you think Itoje is going to be the 6? Ewers comes back into the equation soon and Hughes.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:39 am

There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

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Post by Cowshot Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:48 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

I don't get this few changes thing. EJ's been in charge three games and has capped 3 new players. It feels like fairly rapid change to me, taken with the two 5/8 thing that's going on.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:48 am

A few thoughts, having reflected on the weekend.

Mako/Marler - I think they've shown over the last couple of weeks that there's barely a fag paper between them, and I think Eddie will choose who starts based on the opposition and gameplan. Until someone else is ready to challenge them (one of the Wallers?), is there really much more to be said?

Hartley and Cole looked like men playing for their positions and it showed in the silly mistakes they made. However, their main competitors are both very green and Eddie seems to prefer introducing them gently, so they will be around for a while yet.

Similar story with the locks - Lawes looked a bit desperate, Kruis increasingly assured. Launchbury and Itoje both showed well - though Launchbury was a bit lucky to get away with ignoring his support when he broke. All's well that ends well, and we got a try off the back of it but if he'd offloaded to Clifford we'd have had one several phases earlier. Itoje gets extra points for disrupting that Italian lineout on the England 5m; nice to see a thinking player.

In the backrow, the Haskell rollercoaster, the Vunipola steamroller and the Jones positional merry-go-round all rattle on like a steam fair in full flow. Did anyone spot Robshaw playing 7 for 10 minutes between Haskell going off and Clifford coming on? Shurely shome mishtake, Eddie.

I watched Robshaw closely after his fairly quiet performance last week; you have to be quite eagle-eyed about it since he, Kruis and Marler all have basically the same beard and hairstyle and can be mistaken for each other if you can't see their heights easily. Anyway, the one with 6 on his shirt was instrumental in three turnovers that I saw, and if you look at where he is defensively he's basically lining up to provide cover for Ford and Farrell. His support play was also very good, as someone has commented elsewhere.

Clifford got slightly longer on the pitch, but was also most visible in his support play (which again was good). His (single?) carry tied up two tacklers and created the space for Farrell's try, and as I said above he could have bagged one himself. He's not as easily visible as Itoje, so again you have to look closely for what he's doing, but in the limited gametime they've had it's been good from both of them.

Youngs's passing was dire. Care showed what he could do when a game starts to break up. I'm still not quite sure what to make of the Ford/Farrell combo. It's not setting the world alight, but it was better this week than last and Ford looked to be kicking better from hand (helped by a good kickchase). Likewise Watson and Nowell - both industrious but not really on fire yet. Brown didn't seem to have much to do, one really good take in the air apart, and doesn't seem to be accelerating into the tackle as much as he can; Goode had one of his best performances in an England shirt, albeit against an opposition who were losing their shape.

Not quite there yet... but compare with Lancaster's first Italy game and the benefits of Eddie and experience are evident. We've not climbed any big ladders yet, but also not slid down any snakes.

Ireland are going to be a tougher prospect altogether, but I thing the same principles apply. If England can get parity in the setpiece and the breakdown, they can eventually wear down the Irish defence. Discipline, lineout and kicking in particular will all need to be improved in the next fortnight, though.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:52 am

Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

I don't get this few changes thing. EJ's been in charge three games and has capped 3 new players. It feels like fairly rapid change to me, taken with the two 5/8 thing that's going on.

Yes he giving the young lads games off the bench which is good . What I mean is everyone is calling for Robshaw , Haskell etc to be dropped. That isn't going to happen this 6n.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:53 am

Nice summary Poorfour. Does anyone know how Youngs got motm?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:54 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

I don't get this few changes thing. EJ's been in charge three games and has capped 3 new players. It feels like fairly rapid change to me, taken with the two 5/8 thing that's going on.

Yes he giving the young lads games off the bench which is good . What I mean is everyone is calling for Robshaw , Haskell etc to be dropped. That isn't going to happen this 6n.


Nor should it, Jones will learn from Lancaster's mistakes and will know not to make instant wholesale changes, the last cycle our biggest problem was a lack of experience that won't happen this time.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:57 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Lost in Wales

Would you not agree that long term having Itoje at 6 and Clifford at 7 brings a lot more balance to that back row where they make up for Billy's deficiencies?

Its hard to say to be honest. Haskell and Robshaw in particular do get through a ton of work and you know with Robshaw that he works hard through the whole game, so you don't know how well the new guys will match up to that.

Clifford has had such limited cameos so far its hard to say either way. Itoje looked fantastic. I don't know how much that is due to being able to bring a lot of physicality to that stage of the game but he did look very at home. He is also very noticable. I honestly would not have a problem with him starting, and it does improve our line out options

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:57 am

Exactly Hammer, also age is irrelevant. Its about how a player performs the duties that Jones is asking him to do.

Robshaw is probably doing exactly what hes told to a high standard.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:58 am

Interesting to see the young lads being put through their fitness after the game in Rome. Itoje, George etc.

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Post by Cowshot Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:02 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

I don't get this few changes thing. EJ's been in charge three games and has capped 3 new players. It feels like fairly rapid change to me, taken with the two 5/8 thing that's going on.

Yes he giving the young lads games off the bench which is good . What I mean is everyone is calling for Robshaw , Haskell etc to be dropped. That isn't going to happen this 6n.


Oh, I see Smile . Agree. The one who has surprised me has been Haskell - I thought his time had passed. But he's doing a decent job now, no doubt about it.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:07 pm

Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

I don't get this few changes thing. EJ's been in charge three games and has capped 3 new players. It feels like fairly rapid change to me, taken with the two 5/8 thing that's going on.

Yes he giving the young lads games off the bench which is good . What I mean is everyone is calling for Robshaw , Haskell etc to be dropped. That isn't going to happen this 6n.


Oh, I see  Smile . Agree. The one who has surprised me has been Haskell - I thought his time had passed. But he's doing a decent job now, no doubt about it.

Yet are England fans really thinking that a backrow of Haskell, Robshaw & Vunipola can get a nudge on the better backrows in the game? Italy ran out of steam come the 55 min but until then had a lot of ball. Haskell was his usual destructive in defence but neither he nor Robshaw were threats come ruck time.

Beating Italy mainly through your bench and fitness doesn't really spark hope. Still think come Wales etc they will be outgunned in the backrow.. and mainly because the combination is imbalanced.

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Post by robbo277 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:15 pm

I just wonder if France haven't shown the way with keeping their best scrummagers in reserve. Should England adopt the same tactic against Ireland? So start with Mako, George and Brookes or Hill to start with a high intensity, and then bring on Marler, Hartley and Cole to force scrum penalties against Ireland's weaker sub props? If we're doing that, you'd suggest starting Care at 9 to keep the forwards lively, and possibly Itoje and/or Clifford in the back row.

The other consideration is do we look to target Sexton in defence? Potentially starting Lawes and setting him and Haskell on Sexton early could knock him off his game. But Launchbury and Kruis is probably a better combination on balance, and there might not even be room for Lawes in the 23. Either way, I'd definitely be telling the Vunipolas to run at him early on.

Finally, despite Joseph's hat trick, is it time to look more seriously at Daly? If the bench switches back to a more conventional 5/3 split, surely Daly has to come in ahead of Devoto? Bringing him on like-for-like for Joseph or on for a winger in the last 20 could be a game
changer?

All things considered, I thought Marler's impact from the bench was good and I think if Mako can hold the scrum up for 50 minutes while punching holes, bringing Marler late on could be an advantage for us in the scrum. However, changing the rest of the front row may be too much of a risk at this stage.

I think bringing Launchbury and Itoje in at 4 and 6 strengthens our pack (and both also win their fair share of turnovers), while I think two fresh-out-the-packet flankers may be too much. Haskell keeps his place to try to shut down Sexton with some big hits. Robshaw and Clifford can come on later, and Itoje can come off or move into the row.

Like Marler, I was happy with the impact Care had from the bench, and I think given the relative strengths of the starting pack against the benched pack, it would be good to have Care come on at the same time as the benchers, as he did against Italy. Get the big guys to do 50/60 minutes of hard graft against Ireland's old team, and then bring on Care to speed the game up. Therefore Youngs starts for me.

As mentioned, Daly to come in, and Goode keeps his spot. I think if Ireland and Wales get their kicking games right Goode could be a risk, but maybe Goode should come into the starting line-up against France to see if having a playmaker in the wider channels helps release our wingers. This could be in conjunction with Ford and Farrell or with a look at possibly bringing in Tuilagi for the summer tour. I think it's an option to be considered.

So my 23 for Ireland:
Mako Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Itoje, Haskell, Billy Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown.
George, Marler, Hill, Robshaw, Clifford, Care, Goode, Daly.

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Post by Cowshot Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:21 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cowshot wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:There wont be many changes until the summer. And even then it'll be gradual not wholesale.

I don't get this few changes thing. EJ's been in charge three games and has capped 3 new players. It feels like fairly rapid change to me, taken with the two 5/8 thing that's going on.

Yes he giving the young lads games off the bench which is good . What I mean is everyone is calling for Robshaw , Haskell etc to be dropped. That isn't going to happen this 6n.


Oh, I see  Smile . Agree. The one who has surprised me has been Haskell - I thought his time had passed. But he's doing a decent job now, no doubt about it.

Yet are England fans really thinking that a backrow of Haskell, Robshaw & Vunipola can get a nudge on the better backrows in the game? Italy ran out of steam come the 55 min but until then had a lot of ball. Haskell was his usual destructive in defence but neither he nor Robshaw were threats come ruck time.

Beating Italy mainly through your bench and fitness doesn't really spark hope. Still think come Wales etc they will be outgunned in the backrow.. and mainly because the combination is imbalanced.

Well, probably not. But we haven't yet played the better back rows in the game. We HAVE introduced new players, who take time as a rule to settle into the International game, and we have won both our games so far. Winning the 6Ns is rightly considered our target, but doing that while making changes is never going to be easy: heck, winning it when you aren't making changes is hard enough! So far EJ seems to be getting the balance about right, as far as I can see. We will almost certainly have problems with the Welsh back row, no matter who we put out. I rate the Warburton, Tipuric and Faletau as very good indeed. I'm not sure how EJ is going to try to cope with them and am interested to see. The Robshaw Haskell Billy V back row has pleasantly surprised me so far! We will see Very Happy


Last edited by Cowshot on Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by lostinwales Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:22 pm

Wales have not 'outgunned' us in the back row since a certain game in the MS 3 years ago.

No way you can take Wales lightly but the last two 6N games were only close on the scoreboard, and there should be some points to prove post RWC. It is difficult in that there is a different culture in the team but we had developed a way of dealing with Wales under Lancaster. It did fall apart at the end of the RWC game but it was a combination of excellent Welsh defense, a very well taken opportunistic try and England crumbling under the pressure.

In general terms the Welsh attack has been dealt with well. It was only ironically when they lost their structure with the injuries that they looked dangerous and got the score.

I do think our midfield is going to have to work very hard and no Cuthburt will also make it tougher but still...

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Post by Poorfour Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:27 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Yet are England fans really thinking that a backrow of Haskell, Robshaw & Vunipola can get a nudge on the better backrows in the game? Italy ran out of steam come the 55 min but until then had a lot of ball. Haskell was his usual destructive in defence but neither he nor Robshaw were threats come ruck time.

Beating Italy mainly through your bench and fitness doesn't really spark hope. Still think come Wales etc they will be outgunned in the backrow.. and mainly because the combination is imbalanced.

Precisely that combination beat Wales last year. And if you look at the stats, England forced a lot of turnovers against Italy. Not saying it will work against Ireland, because they will need to step up a level, but England's record against Ireland with the largely same personnel has not been too bad of late. Last season's game was the exception, but I felt that was more down to losing the kicking battle - and with it the territorial one - than the breakdown.

One other key point made by the commentators is that Eddie has got the whole team getting stuck in to rucks - Ford's try, for instance came from Joseph clearing out at a ruck. If everyone is getting stuck in, it takes some pressure off the back row. What is costing them, though, is giving away stupid penalties at the ruck. Got to fix that.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:35 pm

Beshocked, will it one day be possible to state that another player is better than a Sarries player without the rant.

Jones put a starting 15 out that was designed to contain and wear down the Italians, he then brought on the replacements to completely overwhelm them, especially in the pack as he had 6 replacements.

In the short time Marler was on, he made more tackles than VP did in all the time he was on the pitch and the effect on the scrum was obvious for all to see, Citidini suddenly looked completely outplayed, he wasn't worn down by the new prop, a couple of minutes earlier he was holding his own or better against MV; the England scrum was going backwards, if only just. Marler offers more technically and it showed.

I will say that you are right about Itoje, not a starter but he does look the part. Jones will have a difficult job picking his locks, Lawes looked good, Kruis was good (apart from his lineout calling) and Launchbury is over his does of the whatsits. A good position to be in.

George looked okay as well, but showed his inexperience in general, not just international rugby with the brainfart quick throw in. That is why he is benched. Hartley was again solid, three trundles for 4 m, two runs, one of which was a line break, 8 tackles. Not outstanding but solid and his captaincy is worth it's weight in silver at least for such an inexperienced team.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:40 pm

Cowshot, with the exception that Faletau is step above anything Scotland currently have, that is a similar combo to Scotland last week. We did fairly well against them.

What worries me is the thought of Roberts running down the 10/12 channel with Ford and Farrell there. I am sure they will stop him, but it will be three meters past the gain line
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Post by lostinwales Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:41 pm

robbo277 wrote:I just wonder if France haven't shown the way with keeping their best scrummagers in reserve. Should England adopt the same tactic against Ireland? So start with Mako, George and Brookes or Hill to start with a high intensity, and then bring on Marler, Hartley and Cole to force scrum penalties against Ireland's weaker sub props? If we're doing that, you'd suggest starting Care at 9 to keep the forwards lively, and possibly Itoje and/or Clifford in the back row.

The other consideration is do we look to target Sexton in defence? Potentially starting Lawes and setting him and Haskell on Sexton early could knock him off his game. But Launchbury and Kruis is probably a better combination on balance, and there might not even be room for Lawes in the 23. Either way, I'd definitely be telling the Vunipolas to run at him early on.

Finally, despite Joseph's hat trick, is it time to look more seriously at Daly? If the bench switches back to a more conventional 5/3 split, surely Daly has to come in ahead of Devoto? Bringing him on like-for-like for Joseph or on for a winger in the last 20 could be a game
changer?

All things considered, I thought Marler's impact from the bench was good and I think if Mako can hold the scrum up for 50 minutes while punching holes, bringing Marler late on could be an advantage for us in the scrum. However, changing the rest of the front row may be too much of a risk at this stage.

I think bringing Launchbury and Itoje in at 4 and 6 strengthens our pack (and both also win their fair share of turnovers), while I think two fresh-out-the-packet flankers may be too much. Haskell keeps his place to try to shut down Sexton with some big hits. Robshaw and Clifford can come on later, and Itoje can come off or move into the row.

Like Marler, I was happy with the impact Care had from the bench, and I think given the relative strengths of the starting pack against the benched pack, it would be good to have Care come on at the same time as the benchers, as he did against Italy. Get the big guys to do 50/60 minutes of hard graft against Ireland's old team, and then bring on Care to speed the game up. Therefore Youngs starts for me.

As mentioned, Daly to come in, and Goode keeps his spot. I think if Ireland and Wales get their kicking games right Goode could be a risk, but maybe Goode should come into the starting line-up against France to see if having a playmaker in the wider channels helps release our wingers. This could be in conjunction with Ford and Farrell or with a look at possibly bringing in Tuilagi for the summer tour. I think it's an option to be considered.

So my 23 for Ireland:
Mako Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Itoje, Haskell, Billy Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown.
George, Marler, Hill, Robshaw, Clifford, Care, Goode, Daly.

Robshaw either starts or sits out. One of his real talents is his stamina and that isn't anything like as useful off the bench.

Still don't want to see Goode involved. He did have one lovely little run vs Italy but you can't tell me Daly would not have done at least as well.

We do need a back up plan for the midfield, and it would be good to have an alternate center. (How is Hill playing now?). Interesting comment from PF about Robshaw covering midfield on defense a lot.

I agree with BS that JJ's hatrick isn't good news for Daly but I still think there is a place for his versatility.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:47 pm

lostinwales wrote:
robbo277 wrote:I just wonder if France haven't shown the way with keeping their best scrummagers in reserve. Should England adopt the same tactic against Ireland? So start with Mako, George and Brookes or Hill to start with a high intensity, and then bring on Marler, Hartley and Cole to force scrum penalties against Ireland's weaker sub props? If we're doing that, you'd suggest starting Care at 9 to keep the forwards lively, and possibly Itoje and/or Clifford in the back row.

The other consideration is do we look to target Sexton in defence? Potentially starting Lawes and setting him and Haskell on Sexton early could knock him off his game. But Launchbury and Kruis is probably a better combination on balance, and there might not even be room for Lawes in the 23. Either way, I'd definitely be telling the Vunipolas to run at him early on.

Finally, despite Joseph's hat trick, is it time to look more seriously at Daly? If the bench switches back to a more conventional 5/3 split, surely Daly has to come in ahead of Devoto? Bringing him on like-for-like for Joseph or on for a winger in the last 20 could be a game
changer?

All things considered, I thought Marler's impact from the bench was good and I think if Mako can hold the scrum up for 50 minutes while punching holes, bringing Marler late on could be an advantage for us in the scrum. However, changing the rest of the front row may be too much of a risk at this stage.

I think bringing Launchbury and Itoje in at 4 and 6 strengthens our pack (and both also win their fair share of turnovers), while I think two fresh-out-the-packet flankers may be too much. Haskell keeps his place to try to shut down Sexton with some big hits. Robshaw and Clifford can come on later, and Itoje can come off or move into the row.

Like Marler, I was happy with the impact Care had from the bench, and I think given the relative strengths of the starting pack against the benched pack, it would be good to have Care come on at the same time as the benchers, as he did against Italy. Get the big guys to do 50/60 minutes of hard graft against Ireland's old team, and then bring on Care to speed the game up. Therefore Youngs starts for me.

As mentioned, Daly to come in, and Goode keeps his spot. I think if Ireland and Wales get their kicking games right Goode could be a risk, but maybe Goode should come into the starting line-up against France to see if having a playmaker in the wider channels helps release our wingers. This could be in conjunction with Ford and Farrell or with a look at possibly bringing in Tuilagi for the summer tour. I think it's an option to be considered.

So my 23 for Ireland:
Mako Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Itoje, Haskell, Billy Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown.
George, Marler, Hill, Robshaw, Clifford, Care, Goode, Daly.

Robshaw either starts or sits out. One of his real talents is his stamina and that isn't anything like as useful off the bench.

Still don't want to see Goode involved. He did have one lovely little run vs Italy but you can't tell me Daly would not have done at least as well.

We do need a back up plan for the midfield, and it would be good to have an alternate center. (How is Hill playing now?). Interesting comment from PF about Robshaw covering midfield on defense a lot.

I agree with BS that JJ's hatrick isn't good news for Daly
but I still think there is a place for his versatility.
But he scored a hattrick...why are we looking to replace him???

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:48 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Cowshot, with the exception that Faletau is step above anything Scotland currently have, that is a similar combo to Scotland last week. We did fairly well against them.

What worries me is the thought of Roberts running down the 10/12 channel with Ford and Farrell there. I am sure they will stop him, but it will be three meters past the gain line

Whereever possible Robshaw and Haskell will be racing to that spot to cover Roberts

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:50 pm

Then they are leaving hole elsewhere if he gets the offload away or God forbid, learns how to pass
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 15 Feb 2016, 12:52 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Then they are leaving hole elsewhere if he gets the offload away or God forbid, learns how to pass

If that was a possibility it might be a genuine worry.

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Post by dummy_half Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:00 pm

W-P-I

Agree regarding Roberts v our midfield. The Italian centres kept bashing holes in the first half, and Roberts is bigger and more powerful than they are, so is likely to get a lot of joy especially if Haskell/Robshaw can't get across to cover behind.

I still think Farrell at 10 and a specialist 12 with a bit of size would be a better combination, especially as we have elusive rather than powerful outside backs.

I would definitely like to see at least one change in the flankers - we need someone else to carry the ball and to be a genuine line-out option plus add a bit of pace. Now, whether this is Itoje at 6 or Clifford at either 6 or 7 is up for discussion. As others have said, Billy V is excellent at what he does, but his limitations mean we have to look for certain functions (line outs in particular) from elsewhere.

Loose head, I'm with what I think is the consensus, that it is a better combination to start Marler as the solid guy and bring Mako on after about 50 minutes when the game opens up. Nice position to be in though to be having a debate about two strong players.

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Post by Cowshot Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:03 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Cowshot, with the exception that Faletau is step above anything Scotland currently have, that is a similar combo to Scotland last week. We did fairly well against them.

What worries me is the thought of Roberts running down the 10/12 channel with Ford and Farrell there. I am sure they will stop him, but it will be three meters past the gain line

He's quite an exception. I'm also worried about Roberts in the 10/12 channel. Robshaw is likely to be providing some help there but anyone who isn't worried by it probably needs a HIA. I'm also worried by George North, and until I see an England pack seriously grind another 6Ns pack into the dirt I'll be worried about that as well.

However, I like what I'm seeing from England so far and also by what I think I see EJ is doing for the future. Now, I'm well aware that there's a danger of just projecting my hopes onto anything available and seeing them as certainties, but I think the new look and evolving pack might become something really gnarly and gnasty and horrible; I hadn't remembered that Robshaw, Haskell, Billy V was the back row that beat Wales last year, but if they did it once they can do it again; we are at home; we've some good attacking players ourselves, and under a new coach and with 2 wins behind us can junk a lot of the World Cup baggage...

I think if Wales write us off they are making a probably fatal error. Very Happy boxing

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Post by thomh Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice summary Poorfour. Does anyone know how Youngs got motm?

I suspect the Italian commentators missed his replacement and credited him with the grubber for Joseph's try.

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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice summary Poorfour. Does anyone know how Youngs got motm?

Good summary poor4. The Youngs MOTM thing is one of the wonders of the world. How it happened no one knows.

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:32 pm

I wouold of given MOTM award To Kruis.

Having said that i thought Care played better than young's when he came.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:35 pm

Kruis got better as the match wore on, thought he was struggling with the lineouts a bit. Find it hard to look past the guy with a hattrick myself. Youngs was no where near for me, thoguht he was below average.

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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:40 pm

Let's just worry about Ireland. That's our next game. Anything can happen between now and Wales.

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Post by bluestonevedder Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
robbo277 wrote:I just wonder if France haven't shown the way with keeping their best scrummagers in reserve. Should England adopt the same tactic against Ireland? So start with Mako, George and Brookes or Hill to start with a high intensity, and then bring on Marler, Hartley and Cole to force scrum penalties against Ireland's weaker sub props? If we're doing that, you'd suggest starting Care at 9 to keep the forwards lively, and possibly Itoje and/or Clifford in the back row.

The other consideration is do we look to target Sexton in defence? Potentially starting Lawes and setting him and Haskell on Sexton early could knock him off his game. But Launchbury and Kruis is probably a better combination on balance, and there might not even be room for Lawes in the 23. Either way, I'd definitely be telling the Vunipolas to run at him early on.

Finally, despite Joseph's hat trick, is it time to look more seriously at Daly? If the bench switches back to a more conventional 5/3 split, surely Daly has to come in ahead of Devoto? Bringing him on like-for-like for Joseph or on for a winger in the last 20 could be a game
changer?

All things considered, I thought Marler's impact from the bench was good and I think if Mako can hold the scrum up for 50 minutes while punching holes, bringing Marler late on could be an advantage for us in the scrum. However, changing the rest of the front row may be too much of a risk at this stage.

I think bringing Launchbury and Itoje in at 4 and 6 strengthens our pack (and both also win their fair share of turnovers), while I think two fresh-out-the-packet flankers may be too much. Haskell keeps his place to try to shut down Sexton with some big hits. Robshaw and Clifford can come on later, and Itoje can come off or move into the row.

Like Marler, I was happy with the impact Care had from the bench, and I think given the relative strengths of the starting pack against the benched pack, it would be good to have Care come on at the same time as the benchers, as he did against Italy. Get the big guys to do 50/60 minutes of hard graft against Ireland's old team, and then bring on Care to speed the game up. Therefore Youngs starts for me.

As mentioned, Daly to come in, and Goode keeps his spot. I think if Ireland and Wales get their kicking games right Goode could be a risk, but maybe Goode should come into the starting line-up against France to see if having a playmaker in the wider channels helps release our wingers. This could be in conjunction with Ford and Farrell or with a look at possibly bringing in Tuilagi for the summer tour. I think it's an option to be considered.

So my 23 for Ireland:
Mako Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Itoje, Haskell, Billy Vunipola.
Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown.
George, Marler, Hill, Robshaw, Clifford, Care, Goode, Daly.

Robshaw either starts or sits out. One of his real talents is his stamina and that isn't anything like as useful off the bench.

Still don't want to see Goode involved. He did have one lovely little run vs Italy but you can't tell me Daly would not have done at least as well.

We do need a back up plan for the midfield, and it would be good to have an alternate center. (How is Hill playing now?). Interesting comment from PF about Robshaw covering midfield on defense a lot.

I agree with BS that JJ's hatrick isn't good news for Daly
but I still think there is a place for his versatility.
But he scored a hattrick...why are we looking to replace him???

I agree GF. JJ has certainly bought himself some more time in the jersey.

Don't get me wrong- I'm a huge fan of Daly and he deserves a shot, but there are things Joseph does that Daly can't/won't, and vice versa. Could Daly have scored Joseph's 3rd try, carrying 3 defenders? I think not.

Just my two cents on the game:

- Woeful and dare I say incredibly boring first half of rugby. Shocking handling, inability to secure our own ball, and ponderous delivery from rucks
- Ford looked totally shaken and off his game. Poor passing and decision making. Made improvements in the 2nd half
- Shocking passing from Ben Youngs. Still no idea why he got MoM!
- Kruis was outstanding in the loose, but thoroughly let down by lineout calling
- Lawes was anonymous for me
- Haskell put some decent hits in and had another solid defensive display
- We still rely too heavily on Billy for making the hard yards. Forwards are still not hitting the line at pace. Why?
- Robshaw had a decent game, and had a hand in a n umber of turnovers. Always seems to be in the right place at the right time.
- JJ was excellent, but he didn't pass a single ball all game. Nowell and Watson lived off scraps. Would like to see both get their hands on the ball more. Excellent kick chase from Watson, and huge work in defence from Nowell
- Brown was ok, but he's stopped breaking the first tackle that made him so effective last year and the year before
- I thought Glen Jackson had a really poor game. The first half was ruined by his inability to let the game flow. Haskell's tackle should have been a yellow because it's a black and white penalty- either you hit the player in the air or you don't. It's like trying to judge intent when throwing a punch. Connection doesn't matter. The Italians were constantly allowed offside, whereas England were consistently gestured back.

Substitutions:

- Itoje missed two tackles from what I can remember, but was immense in everything else he did. I think the missed tackles were due to overeagerness
- Hartley must be worried for his position. George was awesome and it was utterly refreshing to see him hitting the line at pace and deftly offloading to Farrell
- Hill was impressive in the scrum
- Clifford carried well and looked busy, but why was he brought on at 6?


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