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The "no arms" tackle

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TJ
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Post by Chunky Norwich Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:38 pm

Any referees here? Can anyone explain why one of these is a penalty. And the other isn't? Both were from this weekend's games, and both times, the referee stopped the game to look at the offences. Thanks.

The "no arms" tackle D562da6a65a4828e7091f40670b3d24f

The "no arms" tackle 2a856a3c44718aa2a6c0fb7a9394c580

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Post by stub Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:54 pm

Not a referee and cannot understand the difference, in fact I thought that Billy V made more of an attempt to use his arms. I think that it is just inconsistent interpretation of the laws...

Sorry not to be more helpful.

Edit: actually not sure your clip was Billy V so apologies if my post is incorrect.

Edit 2: Not Billy V (was Burger) but still inconsistent interpretation of the laws.

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Post by VinceWLB Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:18 pm

Although i'm not a ref and certainly don't intend to become one. This is a yellow in both case under the new rules directive but we all know Jacques Burger can get away with basically anything he wants.

Talking about "no arms" tackle Vunipola's yellow yesterday was a soft one.


Last edited by VinceWLB on Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:20 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Although i'm not a ref and certainly don't intend to become one. This is a yellow in both case under the new rules directive but we all know Jacques Burger can get away with basically anything he wants.

Burger was the one that was penalised.

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Post by VinceWLB Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:21 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Although i'm not a ref and certainly don't intend to become one. This is a yellow in both case under the new rules directive but we all know Jacques Burger can get away with basically anything he wants.

Burger was the one that was penalised.

And should have received a yellow card in the process.

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Post by stub Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:36 pm

Both should have received yellows then I guess if that is what the laws say. To me the tackles looked identical. Different refs/different interpretations.

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Post by lostinwales Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:43 pm

The only thing I'd say (based on the evidence above) is that in the Burger tackle its actually his arm that is in contact with the guy being, shall we say, 'tripped'. In the first instance its the tackler's shoulder.

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Post by stub Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:56 pm

lostinwales wrote:The only thing I'd say (based on the evidence above) is that in the Burger tackle its actually his arm that is in contact with the guy being, shall we say, 'tripped'. In the first instance its the tackler's shoulder.

True, Burger is certainly tackling a good bit lower which could perhaps be construed as a trip. That said the top one looks like the elbow kind of makes most contact.

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Post by Cyril Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:05 am

Does Dan Lydiate ever use his arms? His 'tackling' should be carded every single time.

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Post by Seagultaf Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:23 pm

Cyril wrote:Does Dan Lydiate ever use his arms? His 'tackling' should be carded every single time.

The reason for the crack down on no arms tackles was the number of players being injured by what we're really shoulder charges, disguised as tackles. Unfortunately the small minded people who administer the game have yet again taken things too far. In my opinion neither of the tackles above or any that I recall by Lydiate are dangerous, they are chop tackles and trip up the ball carrier. I am really frustrated that an innocuous trip tackle is being treated in the same way as a kick or shoulder charge to the head, this is simply crazy and does nothing to reduce the risk of serious injury to players!

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:38 pm

What about Dan Lydiate hyperextending Conor Murray's knee last season through one of his "chop" tackles?

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:48 pm

It's rare that I've seen Dan Lydiate commit a no-arms tackle. On the occasions that he did it very luckily went unnoticed.

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Post by Seagultaf Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:51 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about Dan Lydiate hyperextending Conor Murray's knee last season through one of his "chop" tackles?

Webb experienced exactly the same injury against Italy and is still out injured, there was and is no suggestion that this was due to foul play. Rugby is a physical game and players will get unlucky injuries from perfectly legal tackles, we could I suppose remove all physicality and call the game soccer?

In my opinion hyper extension of the knee is actually more likely when the arms wrap around and trap the lower limb than if it's a trip tackle. What the game needs to do is to look at ways of reducing or preventing head injuries, as these have the potential to be life changing or (as has happened recently) life ending.

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Post by Pete330v2 Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:05 pm

"Any referees here? Can anyone explain why one of these is a penalty. And the other isn't? Both were from this weekend's games, and both times, the referee stopped the game to look at the offences. Thanks."

One ref got it wrong, the other got it right. It's called inconsistent reffing.

Next topic!!!!!!

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:07 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7fXJzCYo0

It is difficult to see if he does wrap the arms, but it is a late tackle, straight to the knee when the player isn't expecting it.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:13 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:"Any referees here? Can anyone explain why one of these is a penalty. And the other isn't? Both were from this weekend's games, and both times, the referee stopped the game to look at the offences. Thanks."

One ref got it wrong, the other got it right. It's called inconsistent reffing.

Next topic!!!!!!

Cheers for your insight. A true rugby visionary.

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Post by Pete330v2 Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Any referees here? Can anyone explain why one of these is a penalty. And the other isn't? Both were from this weekend's games, and both times, the referee stopped the game to look at the offences. Thanks."

One ref got it wrong, the other got it right. It's called inconsistent reffing.

Next topic!!!!!!

Cheers for your insight. A true rugby visionary.

It's a pleasure, don't mention it, we will miss you when the Mods ban you very soon Smile

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:17 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7fXJzCYo0

It is difficult to see if he does wrap the arms, but it is a late tackle, straight to the knee when the player isn't expecting it.

If that's late and dirty, Furlong's on AW Jones is late and dirty.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:18 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about Dan Lydiate hyperextending Conor Murray's knee last season through one of his "chop" tackles?

Webb experienced exactly the same injury against Italy and is still out injured, there was and is no suggestion that this was due to foul play. Rugby is a physical game and players will get unlucky injuries from perfectly legal tackles, we could I suppose remove all physicality and call the game soccer?

In my opinion hyper extension of the knee is actually more likely when the arms wrap around and trap the lower limb than if it's a trip tackle. What the game needs to do is to look at ways of reducing or preventing head injuries, as these have the potential to be life changing or (as has happened recently) life ending.

I should add that I think Dan Lydiate has the best tackling technique in the game, and the so called chop tackle is only one string to his bow. I think that the shoulder charge to the knee area is a creeping issue in the game however as it can cause some serious damage. I for one am glad to see it get penalised as I want to see players have a long and prosperous career.

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Post by VinceWLB Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:18 pm

Never liked this rule, never will.

We constantly see "no arms" rugby league style chest level tackles get unpunished so why tackles below belt level be punished?

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:20 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Never liked this rule, never will.

We constantly see "no arms" rugby league style chest level tackles get unpunished so why tackles below belt level be punished?

Billy Vunipola received a yellow card for a very debatable rugby league style tackle on Friday night. It is getting looked at as well.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:23 pm

Whether, in theory, eith of the tackles were legal as specified in the Laws, both have the potential to be dangerous and both, therefore, should be penalised. No arms, shoulders in the knee area. Bin 'em both.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:24 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Never liked this rule, never will.

We constantly see "no arms" rugby league style chest level tackles get unpunished so why tackles below belt level be punished?

Billy Vunipola received a yellow card for a very debatable rugby league style tackle on Friday night. It is getting looked at as well.

Awful decision. If that's yellow, then there's 8 or 9 yellows a game.

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Post by TJ Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:33 pm

Chunky - do you ever have anything positive to say about rugby? Why don't you go away?

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Post by cakeordeath Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:39 pm

I have no idea how that could be considered a yellow and at the same time a blatant no arm tackle/shoulder to the face of a Glasgow player goes unpunished

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:43 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Whether, in theory, eith of the tackles were legal as specified in the Laws, both have the potential to be dangerous and both, therefore, should be penalised.  No arms, shoulders in the knee area.  Bin 'em both.

OK

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Post by SecretFly Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:21 pm

cakeordeath wrote:I have no idea how that could be considered a yellow and at the same time a blatant no arm tackle/shoulder to the face of a Glasgow player goes unpunished

One ref got it right and one didn't?

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Post by cb Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:47 pm

In the Bath match, T'eo (I think) had a bit of a shoulder charge on Roko and no penalty or review plus Healy had a tackle reviewed by the referee which was deemed OK but seems to have a distinct lack of arms (may be more clumsy).

In the Sarries match, Burger was pinged when he got at least one and bit arms there, much more convincing than Healy's.

For Northampton, early on Waller got pinged when again seeming to use both arms.  I rather agree the tackle towards was a bit marginal.

I gather referees on trying to clam-down but not always very consistent.

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Post by Heaf Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:02 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Although i'm not a ref and certainly don't intend to become one. This is a yellow in both case under the new rules directive but we all know Jacques Burger can get away with basically anything he wants.

Burger was the one that was penalised.

And should have received a yellow card in the process.

And he did get away with a late, no arms, shoulder charge to the soft dangly bits of an LI player a few weeks back ...

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