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"Is it possible or is it impossible to compare Novak and Roger at their peak"

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Post by hawkeye Sun 22 Nov 2015, 4:50 pm

"Is it possible or is it impossible to compare Novak and Roger at their peak"

This was the cheeky question put to Rafa at his press conference at the WTF Laugh Rafa answered that it is possible but that he didn't want to do it. Very good tactical reply IMO but he would be no fun here on 606v2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=7bhy2QPy8GE&app=desktop

It's at about 4.40 in the video

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Post by hawkeye Mon 23 Nov 2015, 10:55 pm

In an answer to a different question after the WTF final Federer compares Rafa and Novak

Q. Novak has gotten to every big final this year. Would players go away over the winter and work on game plans that would work against him in particular as well as your normal stuff?
ROGER FEDERER: It's hard to speak for every other player. For me personally, not really, because I feel like I need to work on my overall game that is going to have an impact against most of the players.

For me, Rafa is the unique player in the field. I used to work more precisely towards him. I think that's what you're trying to ask.

With Novak, it's more straightforward. If you don't play very well, you're going to have a hard time. If you're going to play better, I know I have my chances with my game.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=115251

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Post by laverfan Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:29 am

hawkeye wrote:For me, Rafa is the unique player in the field. I used to work more precisely towards him. I think that's what you're trying to ask.

Too deferential/PC an answer from Federer.

Djokovic and Federer are completely different players, and comparing them just using numbers is fraught with the usual slam count/h2h which leads nowhere.

Federer's variety is unlikely to be duplicated. Djokovic is Nadal v2.0+.

Federer's use of the past tense in the middle sentence is quite abundantly clear that he no longer does. 2006 is the closest he came to becoming Nadal v2.0, but failed miserably.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 3:30 am

Djoko is no Nadal v2. Djoko doesnt hit topspin the way Nadal does. Djoko's shots are flatter and more penetrating. He takes a more aggressive court position than Nadal.

Djoko is a cross between Fed and Nadal imo. He has Fed's attacking skills and Rafa's retrieving skills. He has the best of both world, now having a serve as good as Fed's, can dominate on indoor HCs and on grass and quick HCs like Fed did in the past; yet he's still dominant on slow HCs and on clay.

His uniqueness lies in the way he could return serves and also his incredible flexibility. Neither Fed nor Nadal could do what he does. He is NOT Nadal v2, he is himself plus his own upgraded versions!

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 3:37 am

Its because Novak is not Nadal that's why Fed doesnt need to specifically work more precisely towards him (Novak).

Fed used the past tense, no surprise, as he has/had since long ago given up the idea of ever beating Rafa; no wonder Fed was tensed when he faced Rafa at Basel final, even though that's his own backyard and Rafa's weakest surface.

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 8:37 am

laverfan wrote:
hawkeye wrote:For me, Rafa is the unique player in the field. I used to work more precisely towards him. I think that's what you're trying to ask.

Too deferential/PC an answer from Federer.


That was not a PC answer! He was asked specifically about Djokovic and if he had to do something special to beat him. He answered that beating Novak was more straightforward he just had to play well. Journalists are desperate for a quote from the great Fed to big up the present number one. Rather than responding to the feed He then brought Rafa into the conversation saying that he was the unique player. It was not the story that the journalist was looking for. Roger as he usually does was saying what he thought even if it was not the easy PC answer.

Rafa was more PC. They wanted a quote from him to big up the player who had just beaten him. He refused to answer. We just have to guess what he refused to say  Wink

Belovedluckyboy wrote:

His uniqueness lies in the way he could return serves and also his incredible flexibility.  Neither Fed nor Nadal could do what he does.  He is NOT Nadal v2, he is himself plus his own upgraded versions!

That's not what Federer thinks. Djokovic is a great player but he is hardly unique. He does the routine things well and is consistent. He is certainly not Nadal v2 though as there isn't one! He is unique Very Happy


Last edited by hawkeye on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 24 Nov 2015, 8:46 am

I think the similarities between Rafa and Novak are overstated.

Yes, they are both baseline players with games built upon their speed and movement but their respective skill sets are quite different. The way they construct a point is quite different.

If they were really that similar, it would be tough to explain the rock-paper-scissors thing that three of them have going on with the style match up.

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 8:51 am

HM. Personally I think there are more similarities between Rafa and Fed than there are between Novak and Rafa. Lots of other players have similarities with Djokovic though.

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Post by sirfredperry Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:03 am

In Fed and Rafa's peak years, I always thought Fed could play really well and STILL lose to Rafa.
You get the impression from Rog that if he is in top form he can beat Djoko, even at 34.
Still think, though, that the big battles coming up in 2016 will not be between Fed and Djoko but between Rafa and Djoko.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:11 am

It's not really possible to compare them at their peak, given that their peak is so far apart. What people don't seem to take into account (the same is true of the Murray/Hewitt argument on the other thread) is that younger players aim to beat what is currently the best. They see a level of play, and if they want to be the best, they know they have to better it. That's how the game evolves and it's a lot easier to do when you're younger.
So although Novak is probably playing now at a level above Fed's peak, if the ages were reversed, I've little doubt that a young Fed would see Novak's current level and have the ability to reach and exceed it.

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:13 am

HE, I think Federer and Nadal are entirely different players.

They are both unique (perhaps 'idiosyncratic' might be a more precise word) but they are pretty much opposites to my mind. In what way do you think are they similar?

With the exception of his flexibility, Novak is pretty conventional stylistically.

But that's why I think he has a close h2h with both of them.

The idiosyncrasies of Federer and Nadal, which are a key part of their great strengths, also lead to to certain weakness.

Novak, with his balanced game, is more capable than any other player of  resisting their strengths while being capable of attacking both of their weaknesses.

He attacks Federer completely differently to how he attacks Nadal.

He's not always successful but I can't think of another player who has proved to be such a headache for both.

I'm not sure he would be so successful against them if were more 'unusual'.

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Post by Jahu Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:41 am

Well Becker trying to sooth Djoko's unloved issues:

Boris Becker ✔
‎@TheBorisBecker

Just a word to all the @rogerfederer fans in the world ...he is the GOAT ! 2006 was even better than 2015 but give @DjokerNole respect!!!

Federe 2006 
Grand slams won: Three (Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open)
Total tournaments won: 12
Match record: 92-5

Novak 2015
Grand slams won: Three (Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open)
Total tournaments won: 11
Match record: 82-6
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Post by laverfan Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:49 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Djoko is no Nadal v2.  Djoko doesnt hit topspin the way Nadal does.  Djoko's shots are flatter and more penetrating. He takes a more aggressive court position than Nadal.  

Djoko is a cross between Fed and Nadal imo.  He has Fed's attacking skills and Rafa's retrieving skills.  He has the best of both world, now having a serve as good as Fed's, can dominate on indoor HCs and on grass and quick HCs like Fed did in the past; yet he's still dominant on slow HCs and on clay.  

His uniqueness lies in the way he could return serves and also his incredible flexibility.  Neither Fed nor Nadal could do what he does.  He is NOT Nadal v2, he is himself plus his own upgraded versions!

V2 is always a better copy of the original, and hence my assertion. V2 is also unique.

The Djokovic Serve ended up being modeled after Federer's, after all the failures of Tood Martin era. Koenig/Goodall did the "19 cm hit zone" Djokovic vs "20 cm hit zone" Federer analysis in one of the WTF matches.

Federer, in his TMF days, did not need the flexibility, which is demanded of a baseline defensive player, because Federer played aggressive point construction.

Baseline battles rely on retrieval skills. Wawrinka taking Djokovic on a slow clay at RG shows what a baseline retriever can fail at when an aggressive power is available. If Wawrinka can keep his head together for a slam, he is capable of beating the current crop of top 4.

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Post by laverfan Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:52 am

Jahu wrote:Well Becker trying to sooth Djoko's unloved issues:

He needs to look at McEnroe's numbers for Singles and Doubles, both, circa 1984, which is 81-4/40-5 (130 matches). Vilas played 199 matches in 1977.

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Post by Jahu Tue 24 Nov 2015, 11:08 am

Those were different times LF, hard to compare, 2006 and 2015 a little more real.

And don't wake up so early, it ain't healthy  kiss
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 11:17 am

HM, of course Novak would attack Fed and Nadal differently. Isn't that the same with Nadal vs Novak and Fed, or Fed vs Nadal and Novak?

To me Novak is all conquering on the HCs but not on clay and grass as he has his vulnerabilities on those two surfaces.

Novak has an edge on the HCs over Nadal but Nadal has the edge on clay but Novak's adv is in BO3 and Nadal in BO5.

Novak vs Fed OTOH is adv Fed on quick HCs and BO3 and adv Novak on all other surfaces.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 11:34 am

LF, Novak's flexibility is developed from young, I don't think his coach developed his flexibility just to help him to retrieve balls better.

In fact Novak started off not as a retriever but a more offensive minded player, choosing to take risk by painting the lines instead of retrieving. He's a baseliner no doubt but who of his generation isn't or wasn't a baseliner? Rafa and Murray,Stan, Delpo etc and etc all are baseliners. Rafa was also more offensive on the HCs in his earlier days,not a retriever on the HCs; its on clay the he retrieved more and then started playing his clay court tennis on the HCs after having so much successes on clay.


I would agree with the comment that both Fed and Nadal's styles are unique whilst Novak plays more conventional tennis. I would think that Borg is one unique player, for he can play topspin baseline tennis on clay and then S&V tennis on quick grass surfaces with little transition time in between the two surfaces, beating clay court experts and grass court experts to win his channel slams.




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Post by HM Murdock Tue 24 Nov 2015, 12:15 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:HM, of course Novak would attack Fed and Nadal differently.  Isn't that the same with Nadal vs Novak and Fed, or Fed vs Nadal and Novak?
I don't think it is the same, no.

Federer appears to have spent years attempting to play Rafa the same way he plays everyone else. I don't know if he has attempted different things but he's never found consistent success. That match up has always been a disaster for him.

In a similar way, I think much of Rafa's trouble against Novak has been that he was slow to adapt. It took him ages to bring the FHDTL into play and that appears to have been only a brief innovation.

But I watch Novak play Federer and I watch him play Nadal, and it's a different strategy completely.

No other player has proved capable of taking on these greats of the game in different ways and achieving consistent success.

I think if Novak were a "quirkier" player, his game wouldn't be balanced enough to take them both on.

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Post by kingraf Tue 24 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm

Djokovic's game is boring as sin, but you have to give him a chance against every player in his history because he really is the complete package. Serves well, returns at an all time great level. Moves like a product of Cybernetics. Can vary his game when necessary. Think Djokovic 2011-15 is as complete a player as the game has ever seen*











*Still don't like him though
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Post by sirfredperry Tue 24 Nov 2015, 12:45 pm

kingraf wrote:Djokovic's game is boring as sin, but you have to give him a chance against every player in his history because he really is the complete package. Serves well, returns at an all time great level. Moves like a product of Cybernetics. Can vary his game when necessary. Think Djokovic 2011-15 is as complete a player as the game has ever seen*











*Still don't like him though

Kingraf - Style and success don't always go hand in hand. I can understand your dislike of Djoko whose play can be just a tad mechanical. He's found out the best way to win tennis matches and if , in the process, his matches have become one-sided or a bit boring, that's the way it is. Of course in sport you tend to want to see the guy, or team, at the top of the rankings/league playing eye-catching, beautiful, sensational stuff but it doesn't always work out like that.

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Post by kingraf Tue 24 Nov 2015, 12:56 pm

sirfredperry wrote:
kingraf wrote:Djokovic's game is boring as sin, but you have to give him a chance against every player in his history because he really is the complete package. Serves well, returns at an all time great level. Moves like a product of Cybernetics. Can vary his game when necessary. Think Djokovic 2011-15 is as complete a player as the game has ever seen*











*Still don't like him though

Kingraf - Style and success don't always go hand in hand. I can understand your dislike of Djoko whose play can be just a tad mechanical. He's found out the best way to win tennis matches and if , in the process, his matches have become one-sided or a bit boring, that's the way it is. Of course in sport you tend to want to see the guy, or team, at the top of the rankings/league playing eye-catching, beautiful, sensational stuff but it doesn't always work out like that.

I'm not blaming him at all. In his position I'd (probably) do the same. Doesn't mean I have to enjoy it. I quite like ruthless efficiency as a rule. Love watching Wladimir Klitschko box. Loved watching Jacques Kallis bat. there's a weird cerebral joy in watching a person who has all the toys be very selective about when to take them out. Djokovic for some reason just seems to have taken the soulless and turned it into a soulless science performed by soulless scientists to create a soulless product.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 1:25 pm

HM, I doubt Fed plays against Rafa the same way he plays against others. Why then did Fed say that he 'used to work more precisely towards Nadal'? You talk as if once Fed adapts his way of playing he would solve the Nadal problem and he's unwilling to adapt. If thats the case Fed wont even think of improving his BH as its good enough vs anyone else.

You talk of Rafa being slow to react against the 2011 Novak but all the other players too are having problems solving the Novak problem, not just Nadal. What Nadal suffered from was confidence issue; however he solved the Novak problem during 2012 and 2013, not just by hitting the FHDTL, but by hitting with more depth, in 2012 clay season; in 2013 he was aggressive from both wings on clay, not just his FHDTL, notice that he hit some excellent BHDTL too during FO2013 SF and F. He was aggressive on the US HCs in 2013, serving well to. Imo its at FO2014 that his FHDTL did the damage in the final.

Nadal and Novak have to adjust their game plan to counter each other's game and its an ongoing process from 2012 right through 2014 FO, the last time they met in 2014.

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 1:28 pm

Rafa has never solved the Novak problem. Effectively, on a hard court, he relies on red-lining his forehand and hoping Novak is slightly off. That happened a few times in 2013 but, generally speaking, a hard court match between the two has been entirely in Novak's hands throughout their careers.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 1:49 pm

I have to add that Nadal plays differently vs Fed and vs Novak and he has/had his successes too vs both of them. Fed too plays differently vs the other two.

HM, you being a Novak fan certainly concentrate on what Novak has done to beat Fedal, but you fail to see what Nadal and also Fed have done to beat their two main rivals.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 1:55 pm

BS, what you said applied on the HCs but not on clay. Its being like this all along, Rafa has the edge on clay and Novak on the HCs.

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Post by Guest Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:04 pm

Is it possible to compare the thermionic valve with the transistor?

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Post by CAS Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:27 pm

I know it said over and over, but if Indian Wells,  Miami, Paris etc played as fasted as Cinicantti would Federer and Djokovics years been a lot closer? Yes. Djokovic gets to play more on his terms than Roger does.

That being said I'm not taking away from Novak, it's not his fault and he's still the best on that surface which is still incredible, it doesnt make him less of a player, I just wish that when a player dominates a season he has to do it on a variety of diffence speeds, I think we need more variety. As if you look beyond the big 4, the consistency of Berdych and Ferrer is more of any player ranked 6 and 7 ish ever.

I'll never forget what happened in Madrid in 2012, not just because Federer won it as he said himself he didn't like it either. It's just the uproar from Novak and Rafa that the surface was so different when that used to happen all the time in the past.

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Post by HM Murdock Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:34 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:BS, what you said applied on the HCs but not on clay.  Its being like this all along, Rafa has the edge on clay and Novak on the HCs.  
Rafa has the edge at Roland Garros, not on clay.

Over the last few years, the overall clay record is:

2011
Djokovic 2 - 0 Nadal

2012
Djokovic 0 - 3 Nadal

2013
Djokovic 1 - 1 Nadal

2014
Djokovic 1 - 1 Nadal

2015
Djokovic 2 - 0 Nadal

Last 5 years
Djokovic 6 - 5 Nadal

Over the same period, they've also met 11 times on HC and it is 9-2 in Djokovic's favour.

Nadal's edge on clay statistically vanished some time ago.

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Post by CAS Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:49 pm

Also it does change so quickly, 18 months ago Novak had only 6 slams and lost 7 finals, people were saying he wasn't mentally there when it mattered. He hadn't won a slam for a year and a half, and now people are suggesting he could be the GOAT and could smash Federers record, so tired of form based opinions from pundits

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Post by Henman Bill Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:52 pm

yeah that's true it's been going on for years on this and related forums.

in 2009 Rafa was finished, in 2010 he was GOAT, in 2011 and 2012 he was finished again, in 2013 he was back in the GOAT debate again...

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Post by CAS Tue 24 Nov 2015, 2:56 pm

Would anyone have believed after the 2010 Aussie Open he had only won one slam almost 6 years later?

The biggest example is McEnroe not winning a slam after 1984, one of the best seasons of all time

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 3:09 pm

HM, do note that from 2014 to 2015, Rafa was not doing well on clay as a result of his back injury and the subsequent loss of confidence coming back from injury. His FO2014 was won with grit and with his all out effort, saving his best for one last push to win the FO,after having a very poor clay season by his standard.

Novak's wins on clay in 2011 and in 2013 MC were the 3 matches that I would consider against a Nadal who's not suffering any physical injury or loss of confidence. Do note that Rafa was having a terrible clay season in 2015, and was losing to players he used to own on clay. Do I expect him to do so poorly next year on clay? I dont think so, judging by how well he did on the HCs during the end of this season.


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Post by sirfredperry Tue 24 Nov 2015, 4:15 pm

BLBoy - I think most people reckon that Rafa will do much better in the European clay-court season in 2016 than he did this year. As long as Rafa's around, Djoko will find it hard to win the French. He couldn't do it this year having knocked out Rafa and at a time when he was playing his best tennis. It will be a lot more difficult this year.

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Post by temporary21 Tue 24 Nov 2015, 4:33 pm

The 2012 Madrid I have some sympathy for. A new blue clay surface is a good idea, but they put it smack in the middle of the red clay season , where people are gearing up for the french. It being more slippery put the jitters on them and they worried that they might lose their conditioning to red, or get hurt.

Though impossible right now. Blue clay would be a great little transition from red clay to grass, between quenns and the FO

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 24 Nov 2015, 4:37 pm

SFP, yes I agree. It'll get more difficult for Novak to win the FO as he gets older. Rafa seems to be fit and healthy this full season and I think if he's fit, he can at least do some damage on clay come 2016.

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 4:39 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:It's not really possible to compare them at their peak, given that their peak is so far apart.

JuliusHMarx wrote:
So although Novak is probably playing now at a level above Fed's peak, if the ages were reversed, I've little doubt that a young Fed would see Novak's current level and have the ability to reach and exceed it.

Did you see what you did there Laugh

The subject of this thread was the question Rafa was asked about whether it was possible or impossible to compare Roger and Novak at their peak. He did answer that question and he is no doubt in the best position to answer it. He was clear that he believed it was possible. What he refused to do was give us the benefit of his comparison.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 24 Nov 2015, 4:44 pm

OK, so everything Rafa says is the truth. It is possible. So why ask the question if it is possible or not? Headscratch

Or - maybe Rafa might not have considered all the factors, specifically the ones I mentioned about the natural evolution of the game. But in fairness to him, maybe that specific point wasn't raised to him. Do you have your own opinion hawkeye, or does what Rafa says always go with you?

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 5:23 pm

HM Murdock wrote:

Over the last few years, the overall clay record is:

2011
Djokovic 2 - 0 Nadal

2012
Djokovic 0 - 3 Nadal

2013
Djokovic 1 - 1 Nadal

2014
Djokovic 1 - 1 Nadal

2015
Djokovic 2 - 0 Nadal

Last 5 years
Djokovic 6 - 5 Nadal

Over the same period, they've also met 11 times on HC and it is 9-2 in Djokovic's favour.

Nadal's edge on clay statistically vanished some time ago.

Hmmm...

In 2011 admittedly Djokovic was in Rafa's head but Rafa still had the better clay record with RG and also Monte Carlo. Not Rafa's fault that he was unable to test himself against Djokovic over 5 sets.

In 2012 Rafa proved that the two Masters finals he lost to Djokovic in 2011 was just a blip as he beat him in two and proved he still had the edge where it counted at RG

Sadly after reasserting his clay dominance over Novak Rafa took 8/9 months out with a knee injury that some speculated would end his career. In 2013 hardly surprising that it took a little while to recover his form and lost to Novak in the first clay Masters Monte Carlo. But Rafa then went on to win Madrid and Rome and beat Djokovic on the way to another title at RG.

In 2014 Both Rafa and Novak won one clay Masters with Novak beating Rafa in Rome but again Rafa beat Djokovic where it counts

In 2015 Fognini has the same 2-0 record over Rafa on clay as Djokovic. Beating Rafa this year on clay or any other surface was proof just of what a poor year that Rafa was having after returning from yet another injury and illness absence.

Apart from in 2015 Rafa has a better clay record than Novak. Rafa's problem has always been injury rather than any one opponent.

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 5:42 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:OK, so everything Rafa says is the truth. It is possible. So why ask the question if it is possible or not? Headscratch

Or - maybe Rafa might not have considered all the factors, specifically the ones I mentioned about the natural evolution of the game. But in fairness to him, maybe that specific point wasn't raised to him. Do you have your own opinion hawkeye, or does what Rafa says always go with you?

Erm He was asked a question and gave an answer. Why do you think he was lying? Why do you think he isn't capable of considering all factors? He's in a better position than any of us to judge. No wonder Rafa stopped short of actually giving an opinion when he gets accused of lying and ignorance just for saying that he has one  Laugh

Of course I have my own opinion. For the record I think it is possible to compare and I believe Federer's peak level > Djokovic's peak level. I don't even consider it a difficult question Very Happy

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 24 Nov 2015, 5:57 pm

I don't think he was lying - why would he? But it just a press conference, not an in depth interview - he wouldn't have had time to give a considered opinion, or just didn't feel like it. If the question had been worded differently he might have given a different answer.

As for "he gets accused of lying and ignorance" that's just the sort of silly, inaccurate twisting of other people's words that I've come to expect from a WUM.

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Post by socal1976 Tue 24 Nov 2015, 6:02 pm

Well we know one thing Rafa has made changes to try defeat Djokovic in 2011. Djokovic is the only player to force Nadal to change his plan A, Federer in all his pomp never could. In fact he was a perfect foil for Nadal's style.

Federer's style is unique today, but it was actually the main way people played 10-15 years ago. I don't see anything that Fed does that is so different lets say to what Sampras tried to do. If anything fed's style of play is a neoclassical style that is not unique or quirky in anyway. He is just better at it than anyone else.

Nadal of the three is the only one who plays what would be called an unorthodox style. No one has ever been that aggressive with how he runs around backhands or his FH is just nothing that any coach was teaching 10 years ago or 15.

Djokovic stylistically is a typical power baseliner but I would say he has stylistic and technical uniquenesss in many aspects that have never been seen before. For example, his ability to hit the open stance BH pass from a full split is a shot that if Federer, Murray, or Nadal tried to the extent Novak does might result in them tearing in half. The flexibility I believe will be something that in future will be a big change to the game as more players see the usefulness not just in retrieving at net it helps in hitting a kick serve as well if you can turn your back into noodle. It also helps in stretch volleys and on the return.


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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 24 Nov 2015, 6:17 pm

But is Djoko's flexibility beyond that of most other humans? I know he spends a lot of time working on it, but maybe he's also a natural in that area? So while other players may aspire to it, few might achieve it, and thus it's effect on the game in the future may be more limited.

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 6:23 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't think he was lying - why would he? But it just a press conference, not an in depth interview - he wouldn't have had time to give a considered opinion, or just didn't feel like it. If the question had been worded differently he might have given a different answer.

As for "he gets accused of lying and ignorance" that's just the sort of silly, inaccurate twisting of other people's words that I've come to expect from a WUM.

Sigh... nothing changes here.

You were the one who said "so everything Rafa says is the truth" Unless I'm missing something that's implying you thought he wasn't telling the truth? Then when I pointed out that he had no reason to lie you claim that you don't think he was lying and act as if you never said it. You also said he might not have considered all the factors so I responded with he's in the best position to judge (ie he is clearly not ignorant about what factors are needed to determine level of play) you call me a WUM. Please explain how that is an attempt to wind anyone up?

Clearly you have a grudge against me. Whenever I say anything even something light hearted you jump on it with snarly comments. It's bullying plain and simple.

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Post by Guest Tue 24 Nov 2015, 6:24 pm

https://youtu.be/0lf7ijOCejo

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Post by hawkeye Tue 24 Nov 2015, 6:28 pm

socal1976 wrote:Well we know one thing Rafa has made changes to try defeat Djokovic in 2011. Djokovic is the only player to force Nadal to change his plan A, Federer in all his pomp never could. In fact he was a perfect foil for Nadal's style.



Rafa has never made changes to specifically beat Novak. He said as much after their match at WTF

Q. In the off-season do you and the other top guys think about, How can we beat Novak? He's always there at the end of every tournament. In most tournaments you have to beat Novak to win.
RAFAEL NADAL: For the moment, yes. I never practice thinking about others. I practice thinking about what I have to do to be better, then we'll see if I am enough good.

I think about my personal motivation to keep improving the things that we believe we need to improve to be better players, and that's it.

Everyone has a different motivation. I never practice thinking what do I have to do to beat Novak, what do I have to do to beat Roger. My motivation has always been just personal, that I want to improve myself, I want to be better. That's what I going to try to keep doing.

We'll see. 2016 going to be a new year. Hopefully better one for me. We'll see.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=115201

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 24 Nov 2015, 6:31 pm

HE, how would you categorise twisting other poster's words so that it implies that they've accused a player of lying or ignorance - is that bullying or wumming?

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Post by socal1976 Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:33 pm

hawkeye wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Well we know one thing Rafa has made changes to try defeat Djokovic in 2011. Djokovic is the only player to force Nadal to change his plan A, Federer in all his pomp never could. In fact he was a perfect foil for Nadal's style.



Rafa has never made changes to specifically beat Novak. He said as much after their match at WTF

Q. In the off-season do you and the other top guys think about, How can we beat Novak? He's always there at the end of every tournament. In most tournaments you have to beat Novak to win.
RAFAEL NADAL: For the moment, yes. I never practice thinking about others. I practice thinking about what I have to do to be better, then we'll see if I am enough good.

I think about my personal motivation to keep improving the things that we believe we need to improve to be better players, and that's it.

Everyone has a different motivation. I never practice thinking what do I have to do to beat Novak, what do I have to do to beat Roger. My motivation has always been just personal, that I want to improve myself, I want to be better. That's what I going to try to keep doing.

We'll see. 2016 going to be a new year. Hopefully better one for me. We'll see.

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=115201

HE I like you but please don't assume we are all ignorant and don't watch these matches and can't break them down. Watch Nadal at USO 2013 and then watch him play Djokovic in Rome or at USO or wimby 2011 and then tell me he didn't change anything for Novak. Please the guy would hit 95 percent of his second serves to his opponents backhand for 99 percent of his opponents on tour. The one guy he changed that pattern for was Djokovic particularly in the hardcourt swing of 2013. Also he began going up the line more often and flatter than he typically would against most opponents with the FH. Again, I watched all those matches and I am completely comfortable and more than capable of discerning tactical differences, which your posts do nothing to dispel.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Wed 25 Nov 2015, 3:07 am

The way the three beat their opponents - Fed weirds a sword and one slice his opponent is dead; Rafa uses his sabre and hacks his opponent to death, takes a little longer time. Novak? Novak takes his time and strangles his opponent and his opponent suffocates to death!

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Post by socal1976 Wed 25 Nov 2015, 5:56 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:But is Djoko's flexibility beyond that of most other humans? I know he spends a lot of time working on it, but maybe he's also a natural in that area? So while other players may aspire to it, few might achieve it, and thus it's effect on the game in the future may be more limited.

I don't think so, I mean like any other talent at the highest level it is a mix of genetics and hard work. Obviously he wasn't born this flexible. I used to do Yoga and it is an incredible exercise and very high levels of flexibility are available to even people who are advanced in age. It is very much an acquired skill. While I am sure there are people who have better capability to be flexible the same as muscular strength, it is still something that needs to be honed like razor. I think there is a bigger physical barrier in terms of height, speed etc than in terms of flexibility. I mean you can work all you like but if you are slow you are slow. John Isner and Ferrer can never be optimum height for tennis players but most likely they can improve greatly in flexibility. I think people greatly underestimate it. I think it is a huge reason for Djokovic's unique success as much as his fitness.

1. He has a great kick serve, if you have watched his serve you know how loose his shoulder and back have to be to generate that wicked kick.

2. He has the durability and consistency that comes from not having to have down time and therapy time for injury throughout the year. I think part of this is genes another huge part is how light and flexible he is.

3. His ability to slide on a hard court for rapid change of direction, without a light frame and loose ankles and legs you can't even think of doing that

4. The return from full stretch, no need to talk about this because he does it better than anyone I have seen

5. The BH pass at full stretch, see above

So again, I think he will be seen as the guy who revolutionizes tennis training more than anyone maybe since Lendl or even more so. Because it isn't just the cardiovascular fitness it is the flexibility and the durability that comes from said flexibility. Already he has revolutionized diet and food, I mean who heard of gluten free before Novak. Honestly, I didn't even know what the hell Gluten was in 2010.

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