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Rhys Webb going to the Premiership?

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Post by Dontheman2 Sun 29 Nov 2015, 9:11 pm

How can this be?. Reported in TRP to be leaving after his DC with the Ospreys runs out. I'd have thought he be re-signed. Presumably opting for the DC in the first place was putting down a marker for a long term Wales career. I thought we'd turned the tide with JD2 coming back and reports of 1/2p wanting to come back. Isn't Charteris he's ding this way too. With Faletau seemingly on the move and Doc dropping anchor too in England aren't we going to have some problems with the elite player code? So much to hope for next year after an injury beset but decent RWC. .

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Post by offload Mon 30 Nov 2015, 7:26 am

Inevitable. This is professional sport and the best players will want to play for the best teams and for as much money as they can get. Few people want to earn less than they think they are worth.

The pro 12 is simply not a good enough product. Same thing is happening to Scottish players. The WRU can't just hit players with a bigger stick when the salary gap continues to widen.




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Post by BamBam Mon 30 Nov 2015, 9:40 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/31929540

Thats nuts, this says he only signed in March, how could it possibly be only for a year? You've got to put the blame on the WRU for this if he does leave, thats a massive cockup

Having said that, he'd be a cracking signing for any of the AP clubs

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Mon 30 Nov 2015, 9:53 am

I am pretty sure this will show that Gats law is utter cods.

After all at the moment we have numerous players who are not included under Gats Law due to being either overseas pre RSA, or because they were not offered 'market value' contracts elsewhere etc
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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 01 Dec 2015, 9:04 am

There never was a Gats Law as people still insist on quoting and until our Regions regularly become competitive in the latter stages of Europe then players will want to move to compete at the highest levels. Plus some of the money being thrown about is just to good to resist and if we were offered that type to do our job would we say no?
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 01 Dec 2015, 9:31 am

I thought the new agreement between the Regions and WRU had formalised a rule on selection, thus creating a "Gats Law".

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 9:36 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:There never was a Gats Law as people still insist on quoting and until our Regions regularly become competitive in the latter stages of Europe then players will want to move to compete at the highest levels.  Plus some of the money being thrown about is just to good to resist and if we were offered that type to do our job would we say no?

If it jeapordised my chances of international rugby, then I might. I guess it depends on the difference. Plus Gatland could easily stick with Gareth Davies at 9 without affecting the international side. I don't think Webb has the WRU over a barrel in the same way as Biggar.

I sympathise. We obviously have similar issues in Scotland with Glasgow losing key players each summer. I must say though, the Dragons team that turned up at Murrayfield was probably the worst opposition I've seen live, including Zebre and Treviso. They reminded me of Edinburgh a couple of seasons ago. That bad!

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 01 Dec 2015, 9:40 am

fES,

We weren't that good even
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 01 Dec 2015, 9:41 am

fES,

Thing with Scotland is that with just two sides you either have to outlaw the use of NSQ players entirely or encourage players to move "abroad". Otherwise the development opportunities for players are minimal.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 10:25 am

The Scotland model is to encourage players to move abroad, no question. Denton moving to Bath was a win/win for us. Played for Edinburgh for years, developed into a good international player then left for Bath (where he'll get exposure to a higher level of rugby) requiring a pay-out for Edinburgh to be bought out of his contract. Meanwhile we have Cornell Du Preez, who will shortly become SQ, stepping into the breach. A more accomplished and rounded player in my opinion, with Masi Manu backing him up with Magnus Bradbury (a highly promising young SQ player) given the opportunity for more game time.

Edinburgh maintain strength on the pitch, Denton has an opportunity to really test himself to benefit Scotland, a young SQ player gets more opportunities and a nice fat pay-out is received to assist with contract negotiations for other players.

The model isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it's starting to work a bit better than it has previously (Glasgow winning the Pro12 is certainly evidence of that). Having quality coaches like Toonie and Solomons in charge has certainly helped.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 10:35 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Cornell Du Preez

Yep thats a traditional Scottish name if I ever saw one. International rugby is becomming a joke. This three year residency is utter bollox. As soon as it is changed the better it will be.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 01 Dec 2015, 10:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Cornell Du Preez

Yep thats a traditional Scottish name if I ever saw one. International rugby is becomming a joke. This three year residency is utter bollox. As soon as it is changed the better it will be.

Is there any talk of it being changed though? I personally think 5 years as minimum would be better.
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Post by Shifty Tue 01 Dec 2015, 12:11 pm

Can't see any stories about Webb moving on any web site. Shocked

I don't really care too much about backs leaving, it's forwards Wales can't afford to move abroad.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 12:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Cornell Du Preez

Yep thats a traditional Scottish name if I ever saw one. International rugby is becomming a joke. This three year residency is utter bollox. As soon as it is changed the better it will be.

I agree LD. I would change the rules as well, but I certainly don't blame Cotter et al for selecting players within the current framework.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 01 Dec 2015, 12:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Cornell Du Preez

Yep thats a traditional Scottish name if I ever saw one. International rugby is becomming a joke. This three year residency is utter bollox. As soon as it is changed the better it will be.

At least Nathan Hughes sounds like an English name

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 01 Dec 2015, 12:58 pm

If true then I can see Biggar and AWJ moving. Let's face it they deserve better as the WRU and regions haven't really developed the game at that level, it's gone backwards to the point where Scottish teams have long overtaken us. Who's next, the Italians?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 1:41 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:If true then I can see Biggar and AWJ moving. Let's face it they deserve better as the WRU and regions haven't really developed the game at that level, it's gone backwards to the point where Scottish teams have long overtaken us. Who's next, the Italians?

I would not say they have overtaken the Welsh regions, they have just bloated their sides out with time serving players from the SH. As shown on the international stage this does nothing for Scotland and they are the perennial whipping boys of the 6N along with Italy.

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Post by majesticimperialman Tue 01 Dec 2015, 2:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I thought the new agreement between the Regions and WRU had formalised a rule on selection, thus creating a "Gats Law".


LondonTiger.

My thought was similar to yours, though i thought that if you signed a dual contract you came under Gatlands law.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 01 Dec 2015, 3:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If true then I can see Biggar and AWJ moving. Let's face it they deserve better as the WRU and regions haven't really developed the game at that level, it's gone backwards to the point where Scottish teams have long overtaken us. Who's next, the Italians?

I would not say they have overtaken the Welsh regions, they have just bloated their sides out with time serving players from the SH. As shown on the international stage this does nothing for Scotland and they are the perennial whipping boys of the 6N along with Italy.

But that's the international circuit, and I was strictly referring to the club game which is run by the WRU and regions. I think the Scottish teams' results in recent times are clearly better than ours; and if our game at this level doesn't improve then it will eventually have disastrous implications on the national team.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:00 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If true then I can see Biggar and AWJ moving. Let's face it they deserve better as the WRU and regions haven't really developed the game at that level, it's gone backwards to the point where Scottish teams have long overtaken us. Who's next, the Italians?

I would not say they have overtaken the Welsh regions, they have just bloated their sides out with time serving players from the SH. As shown on the international stage this does nothing for Scotland and they are the perennial whipping boys of the 6N along with Italy.

But that's the international circuit, and I was strictly referring to the club game which is run by the WRU and regions. I think the Scottish teams' results in recent times are clearly better than ours; and if our game at this level doesn't improve then it will eventually have disastrous implications on the national team.

would you rather the regions filled their teams with time serving NWQ players like the Scottish sides do ? I think we will get it right eventually and with the regions now working better with the WRU I think things are on the up. Anyway, what results have the two Scottish sides had that are better than the regions ?

Only one fixture both Scottish sides have had in Wales so far, and fair enough Glasgow beat Cardiff Blues, but that is it, Edinburgh have not traveled to Wales yet, we will have to wait and see on that one.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If true then I can see Biggar and AWJ moving. Let's face it they deserve better as the WRU and regions haven't really developed the game at that level, it's gone backwards to the point where Scottish teams have long overtaken us. Who's next, the Italians?

I would not say they have overtaken the Welsh regions, they have just bloated their sides out with time serving players from the SH. As shown on the international stage this does nothing for Scotland and they are the perennial whipping boys of the 6N along with Italy.

I think Glasgow's Pro12 title would suggest otherwise (that said the Scarlets are going well this season), although you're of course right to point out that Wales on the international stage are still well ahead. I think it does Gatland great credit that he's kept Wales so strong in the light of the Welsh regions performing comparatively poorly. Great coaching team.

The comment regarding "time serving players from the SH" is a little off the mark. Plenty SH players in the Welsh regions as well. Just looking at the Edinburgh vs Dragons game I watched on Friday, by my count Edinburgh had 6 NSQ players in the 23 (Coman, Du Preez, Burleigh, Helu, Andress and Allen) whereas the Dragons had 7 NWQ (Meyer, Stankovich, Knight, Landman, Crosswell, Jackson and Pretorius).

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:27 pm

Glasgow had less: 5 NSQ in the 23 against Treviso (Big T, Mamu, Puafisi, Peterson and Johnson).

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:34 pm

Cardiff had same as Glasgow: 5 NWQ (Scully, Lee-Lo, Filise, Vosawai, Hoeata).

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:39 pm

Scarlets had more than Glasgow and same as Edinburgh: 6 NWQ (King, DTH, Parkes, Paulino, Barclay and Earle)

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:40 pm

How many players do Edinburgh and Glasgow have who are now SQ but are not actually Scottish though ? Off the top of my head I can think of Strauss, Maitland,Visser, Nel for a start.

So come on lets play fair. Hug

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:44 pm

Well I ignored similar players for the Welsh set-up such as Anscombe and Collins. Quite a number of English players in there as well, qualifying through parentage and grand parentage. Probably easier we just stick with NSQ and NWQ, and on that basis the Welsh and Scottish sides are pretty much the same, as I have demonstrated.

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Post by demosthenes Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:How many players do Edinburgh and Glasgow have who are now SQ but are not actually Scottish though ? Off the top of my head I can think of Strauss, Maitland,Visser, Nel for a start.

So come on lets play fair. Hug

Just to mention, without getting into the merits / demerits of the argument, that Maitland and Visser are no longer playing in Scotland.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 4:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:How many players do Edinburgh and Glasgow have who are now SQ but are not actually Scottish though ? Off the top of my head I can think of Strauss, Maitland,Visser, Nel for a start.

So come on lets play fair. Hug

...and Maitland qualifies through family connections, not residency.

To my knowledge we currently have three residency players featuring for Scotland: Nel, Strauss and Visser.

I've chosen not to include Denton. He moved across as a student, not for rugby reasons.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:02 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I ignored similar players for the Welsh set-up such as Anscombe and Collins. Quite a number of English players in there as well, qualifying through parentage and grand parentage. Probably easier we just stick with NSQ and NWQ, and on that basis the Welsh and Scottish sides are pretty much the same, as I have demonstrated.


That is such a poor argument, seriously, are we going to count players who have lived in the country since they were babies then ? If that is the case you could count the likes of Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,Henry Pyrgos, Tom Seymore, Blair Cowan, John Hardie, Tim Swinson, Ryan Wilson and Denton in Scotlands long outstanding non Scottish players. They are the payers who have qualified, not including those who have not yet.

The Welsh sides, and the Welsh national side are a world of difference away from the Scottish sides when it comes to this. Lets face facts Edinburgh and Glasgow have a long list of NSQ players most of whom have gone onto represent Scotland. At least the Welsh players who you claim are not Welsh have some sort of affiliation with the country and have not just been up here for three years.

Anyway, I do not think the Scottish sides have overtaken the Welsh sides, not all of them anyway.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:08 pm

Webb going is definitely a blow, but as has been mentioned above, it is not without its advantages - the Os get some money, a slot is freed up for a new WQ talent and Webb gets to continue his upwards trajectory (depending on which club signs him, obviously) by training with a new team in a new environment. You always learn something by moving jobs - a factoid not limited to rugby players either.  

He would be a good fit for Sarries, for example.

LD - no need to tub thump about the residency rule. Most of us here agree with you (well, I do anyway) but the coaches need to work within the framework that they're given. I think that Scotland will be a lot more competitive in the 6N this year.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:16 pm

George Carlin wrote: but the coaches need to work within the framework that they're given.

This I agree with, and also, Scotland are not doing anything wrong either. I Just do not want us to follow the two Scottish sides ideas.

George Carlin wrote:I think that Scotland will be a lot more competitive in the 6N this year.

Now, now. Come on. Have you not learned. We get told this every year. I am not saying they will not be more competitive, but what have they done thus far to up your optimism ?

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:17 pm

George Carlin wrote:Webb going is definitely a blow, but as has been mentioned above, it is not without its advantages - the Os get some money, a slot is freed up for a new WQ talent and Webb gets to continue his upwards trajectory (depending on which club signs him, obviously) by training with a new team in a new environment. You always learn something by moving jobs - a factoid not limited to rugby players either.  

He would be a good fit for Sarries, for example.

LD - no need to tub thump about the residency rule. Most of us here agree with you (well, I do anyway) but the coaches need to work within the framework that they're given. I think that Scotland will be a lot more competitive in the 6N this year.

Can't see him going to Sarries their 3rd choice SH Ben Spencer was outstanding against Wuss at the weekend & he is behind Wiggy & de Kock


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:19 pm

Yep, I cannot see Rhys Webb going anywhere, why would he ? If Ospreys keep all their Welsh players and add to them they could be a formidable outfit. If he does go, Ospreys still have Grabbham who looks a decent prospect as well.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I ignored similar players for the Welsh set-up such as Anscombe and Collins. Quite a number of English players in there as well, qualifying through parentage and grand parentage. Probably easier we just stick with NSQ and NWQ, and on that basis the Welsh and Scottish sides are pretty much the same, as I have demonstrated.

That is such a poor argument, seriously, are we going to count players who have lived in the country since they were babies then ? If that is the case you could count the likes of Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,Henry Pyrgos, Tom Seymore, Blair Cowan, John Hardie, Tim Swinson, Ryan Wilson and Denton in Scotlands long outstanding non Scottish players. They are the payers who have qualified, not including those who have not yet.

The Welsh sides, and the Welsh national side are a world of difference away from the Scottish sides when it comes to this. Lets face facts Edinburgh and Glasgow have a long list of NSQ players most of whom have gone onto represent Scotland. At least the Welsh players who you claim are not Welsh have some sort of affiliation with the country and have not just been up here for three years.

Anyway, I do not think the Scottish sides have overtaken the Welsh sides, not all of them anyway.

Now you've lost me!

The only "rugby tourists" if you like, those who have moved country in order to qualify and without a prior affiliation to Scotland (and currently play for Scotland), are Nel, Strauss and Visser.

Those you have listed above are no different to a number of players within the Welsh set-up. They all qualify through family ties, and were not born in Scotland.

I have set out the facts above. Within the current IRB rules, the Welsh regions have just as many NWQ on offer as the two Scottish sides (based on a quick look at last weekend). Your initial point was that the Welsh regions serve the Welsh international side better than the Scottish professional teams (who are "full of time serving SH players"). I have demonstrated clearly that you are wrong, based on the facts of NWQ vs NSQ. That the Dragons had more NWQ players than Edinburgh had NSQ players surprised me actually, but them the facts.

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Post by BamBam Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:48 pm

Where would he be a fit is the question, of the top 6 in the AP I see it as

Leicester - Youngs there, although never know if the rumours about him going to Bath are true
Bath - Never slow in ignoring the salary cap, and if they're in for Youngs never know
Saracens - He'd instantly be their best scrum half
Exeter - Chudley and Lewis are average, but have they got the budget?
Wasps - Got Simpson and Robson, unlikely to go for another young 9
Saints - Possiblity - Fotu'alili is not looking great, and Dickson is decent but Webb a step up

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Post by Exiledinborders Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:50 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I ignored similar players for the Welsh set-up such as Anscombe and Collins. Quite a number of English players in there as well, qualifying through parentage and grand parentage. Probably easier we just stick with NSQ and NWQ, and on that basis the Welsh and Scottish sides are pretty much the same, as I have demonstrated.

That is such a poor argument, seriously, are we going to count players who have lived in the country since they were babies then ? If that is the case you could count the likes of Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,Henry Pyrgos, Tom Seymore, Blair Cowan, John Hardie, Tim Swinson, Ryan Wilson and Denton in Scotlands long outstanding non Scottish players. They are the payers who have qualified, not including those who have not yet.

The Welsh sides, and the Welsh national side are a world of difference away from the Scottish sides when it comes to this. Lets face facts Edinburgh and Glasgow have a long list of NSQ players most of whom have gone onto represent Scotland. At least the Welsh players who you claim are not Welsh have some sort of affiliation with the country and have not just been up here for three years.

Anyway, I do not think the Scottish sides have overtaken the Welsh sides, not all of them anyway.

Now you've lost me!

The only "rugby tourists" if you like, those who have moved country in order to qualify and without a prior affiliation to Scotland (and currently play for Scotland), are Nel, Strauss and Visser.

Those you have listed above are no different to a number of players within the Welsh set-up. They all qualify through family ties, and were not born in Scotland.

I have set out the facts above. Within the current IRB rules, the Welsh regions have just as many NWQ on offer as the two Scottish sides (based on a quick look at last weekend). Your initial point was that the Welsh regions serve the Welsh international side better than the Scottish professional teams (who are "full of time serving SH players"). I have demonstrated clearly that you are wrong, based on the facts of NWQ vs NSQ. That the Dragons had more NWQ players than Edinburgh had NSQ players surprised me actually, but them the facts.
I agree. It is a bit rich for any Welsh supporter to comment on Scotland when in the RWC Wales had eleven players born outside the country which is more than any other country. Amazingly they included nine Englishmen.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 01 Dec 2015, 5:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
George Carlin wrote:I think that Scotland will be a lot more competitive in the 6N this year.

Now, now. Come on. Have you not learned. We get told this every year. I am not saying they will not be more competitive, but what have they done thus far to up your optimism ?
Oh, I know. Believe me, I know.

This is totally not what this thread is about, but reasons to be cheerful if you're a Scotland fan:
1. We have to be or we'd kill ourselves.
2. The curling's not on yet.
3. Our front row mashed the Japanese, the Samoans, the Wallabies and is currently (wearing an Edinburgh shirt) eating every scrum placed before it domestically and in Europe.
4. 6 Cowan 7 Hardie 8 Denton 20 Strauss. We tried it and bugger me, it works.
5. Our lock combination made more tackles than any other in the RWC and the last 6 Nations.
6. Alex Dunbar is fit again. Peter Jackson made a film about him. It was called 'The Return of the King'.king
7. Greig Laidlaw is currently kicking at 90%.
8. We have to be or we'd kill ourselves.
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 01 Dec 2015, 6:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If true then I can see Biggar and AWJ moving. Let's face it they deserve better as the WRU and regions haven't really developed the game at that level, it's gone backwards to the point where Scottish teams have long overtaken us. Who's next, the Italians?

I would not say they have overtaken the Welsh regions, they have just bloated their sides out with time serving players from the SH. As shown on the international stage this does nothing for Scotland and they are the perennial whipping boys of the 6N along with Italy.

But that's the international circuit, and I was strictly referring to the club game which is run by the WRU and regions. I think the Scottish teams' results in recent times are clearly better than ours; and if our game at this level doesn't improve then it will eventually have disastrous implications on the national team.

would you rather the regions filled their teams with time serving NWQ players like the Scottish sides do ? I think we will get it right eventually and with the regions now working better with the WRU I think things are on the up. Anyway, what results have the two Scottish sides had that are better than the regions ?

Only one fixture both Scottish sides have had in Wales so far, and fair enough Glasgow beat Cardiff Blues, but that is it, Edinburgh have not traveled to Wales yet, we will have to wait and see on that one.

Well no, that's a ridiculous suggestion and I've seen nothing to indicate yet that we're on the up. Some players returning home is good news, yet with that comes the news of more to be departing with their regional team. The Irish model is dead in the water so to improve we'd need to follow the Saracens model - to implement that we need a strong working relationship between RRW and the WRU, along with a few extta sugar daddy's and a raise on the salary cap. Not as simple as it sounds though....

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 01 Dec 2015, 6:38 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I ignored similar players for the Welsh set-up such as Anscombe and Collins. Quite a number of English players in there as well, qualifying through parentage and grand parentage. Probably easier we just stick with NSQ and NWQ, and on that basis the Welsh and Scottish sides are pretty much the same, as I have demonstrated.

That is such a poor argument, seriously, are we going to count players who have lived in the country since they were babies then ? If that is the case you could count the likes of Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,Henry Pyrgos, Tom Seymore, Blair Cowan, John Hardie, Tim Swinson, Ryan Wilson and Denton in Scotlands long outstanding non Scottish players. They are the payers who have qualified, not including those who have not yet.

The Welsh sides, and the Welsh national side are a world of difference away from the Scottish sides when it comes to this. Lets face facts Edinburgh and Glasgow have a long list of NSQ players most of whom have gone onto represent Scotland. At least the Welsh players who you claim are not Welsh have some sort of affiliation with the country and have not just been up here for three years.

Anyway, I do not think the Scottish sides have overtaken the Welsh sides, not all of them anyway.

Now you've lost me!

The only "rugby tourists" if you like, those who have moved country in order to qualify and without a prior affiliation to Scotland (and currently play for Scotland), are Nel, Strauss and Visser.

Those you have listed above are no different to a number of players within the Welsh set-up. They all qualify through family ties, and were not born in Scotland.

I have set out the facts above. Within the current IRB rules, the Welsh regions have just as many NWQ on offer as the two Scottish sides (based on a quick look at last weekend). Your initial point was that the Welsh regions serve the Welsh international side better than the Scottish professional teams (who are "full of time serving SH players"). I have demonstrated clearly that you are wrong, based on the facts of NWQ vs NSQ. That the Dragons had more NWQ players than Edinburgh had NSQ players surprised me actually, but them the facts.
I agree. It is a bit rich for any Welsh supporter to comment on Scotland when in the RWC Wales had eleven players born outside the country which is more than any other country. Amazingly they included nine Englishmen.

Englishmen? Poor WUM. Why does it matter where they're born? While we're at it do any of the following also matter; sexual orientation, religious views, political views, colour, race? How the hell this topic gets dragged into most Welsh threads I'll never know!

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 01 Dec 2015, 6:41 pm

George Carlin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
George Carlin wrote:I think that Scotland will be a lot more competitive in the 6N this year.

Now, now. Come on. Have you not learned. We get told this every year. I am not saying they will not be more competitive, but what have they done thus far to up your optimism ?
Oh, I know. Believe me, I know.

This is totally not what this thread is about, but reasons to be cheerful if you're a Scotland fan:
1. We have to be or we'd kill ourselves.
2. The curling's not on yet.
3. Our front row mashed the Japanese, the Samoans, the Wallabies and is currently (wearing an Edinburgh shirt) eating every scrum placed before it domestically and in Europe.
4. 6 Cowan 7 Hardie 8 Denton 20 Strauss. We tried it and bugger me, it works.
5. Our lock combination made more tackles than any other in the RWC and the last 6 Nations.
6. Alex Dunbar is fit again. Peter Jackson made a film about him. It was called 'The Return of the King'.king
7. Greig Laidlaw is currently kicking at 90%.
8. We have to be or we'd kill ourselves.

Fair points... I only originally brought the two Scottish teams into it to draw comparison with our own. We used to be better but that's no longer the case, so it would be difficult to get internationals playing for a region. Granted this received an idiotic response, and not one that I agree with.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 01 Dec 2015, 7:25 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I thought the new agreement between the Regions and WRU had formalised a rule on selection, thus creating a "Gats Law".


LondonTiger.

My thought was similar to yours, though i thought that if you signed a dual contract you came under Gatlands law.

After the RSA was signed, there was an agreement that any player who leaves a region, whilst there was a 'market value contract offer from a region for them' will fall into a 'wild card' catagory. And also that the national coach would be allowed to select two 'wild card' players in the 15/16 season (with that increasing over the coming seasons). Also 'in the event of an injury crisis' there could be additional non regional players called up. As well as that, players who had signed deals previous to the RSA are exempt. Whether people call it the professional national rugby agreement, or Gats law, or whatever they want, it exists, and is pretty much irrelevant as only two current players fall into wild card catagory.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue 01 Dec 2015, 8:18 pm

BamBam wrote:Where would he be a fit is the question, of the top 6 in the AP I see it as

Leicester - Youngs there, although never know if the rumours about him going to Bath are true
Bath - Never slow in ignoring the salary cap, and if they're in for Youngs never know
Saracens - He'd instantly be their best scrum half
Exeter - Chudley and Lewis are average, but have they got the budget?
Wasps - Got Simpson and Robson, unlikely to go for another young 9
Saints - Possiblity - Fotu'alili is not looking great, and Dickson is decent but Webb a step up

Feel a tad slighted
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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue 01 Dec 2015, 8:20 pm

George Carlin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
George Carlin wrote:I think that Scotland will be a lot more competitive in the 6N this year.

Now, now. Come on. Have you not learned. We get told this every year. I am not saying they will not be more competitive, but what have they done thus far to up your optimism ?
Oh, I know. Believe me, I know.

This is totally not what this thread is about, but reasons to be cheerful if you're a Scotland fan:
1. We have to be or we'd kill ourselves.
2. The curling's not on yet.
3. Our front row mashed the Japanese, the Samoans, the Wallabies and is currently (wearing an Edinburgh shirt) eating every scrum placed before it domestically and in Europe.
4. 6 Cowan 7 Hardie 8 Denton 20 Strauss. We tried it and bugger me, it works.
5. Our lock combination made more tackles than any other in the RWC and the last 6 Nations.
6. Alex Dunbar is fit again. Peter Jackson made a film about him. It was called 'The Return of the King'.king
7. Greig Laidlaw is currently kicking at 90%.
8. We have to be or we'd kill ourselves.

Visser is looking great (in attack...) for Quins, Duncan Taylor playing well at Sarries
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Post by Dontheman2 Wed 02 Dec 2015, 9:16 am

Hang on a minute people aren't getting the point. Never mind meandering off into eligibility. The Dual Contract is the cornerstone of WRU policy. If RW is jumping ship, why. Eddie Jones has criticised England's lack of central contracts and here we have RW supposedly entering the free for all. Many people self included reckon RW is the top No 9. Why would he jeopardise that ffs. I think there are some issues with the DC but it's madness to abandon it at such an early stage. Surely the rest and longevity are crucial. It's like Mcilroy playing football for fun and spraining his ankle.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 02 Dec 2015, 10:01 am

Dontheman2 wrote:Hang on a minute people aren't getting the point. Never mind meandering off into eligibility.  The Dual Contract is the cornerstone of WRU policy. If RW is jumping ship, why. Eddie Jones has criticised England's lack of central contracts and here we have RW supposedly entering the free for all. Many people self included reckon RW is the top No 9. Why would he jeopardise that ffs. I think there are some issues with the DC but it's madness to abandon it at such an early stage. Surely the rest and longevity are crucial. It's like Mcilroy playing football for fun and spraining his ankle.

I agree, and I have looked everywhere for quotes and evidence of this and the only place I can find any is here. I really doubt this will happen, AWJ, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb will all sign DC and stay in Wales. I have seen nothing to make me think otherwise.

Also on a side note, i have here'd that Halfpenny is being offered 400k a year to return to Wales, half paid by the union and half paid by whatever region he signs for. But as said, this is all just talk. But apparently Cardiff Blues are talking about this kind of money.

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Post by BamBam Wed 02 Dec 2015, 10:06 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:
BamBam wrote:Where would he be a fit is the question, of the top 6 in the AP I see it as

Leicester - Youngs there, although never know if the rumours about him going to Bath are true
Bath - Never slow in ignoring the salary cap, and if they're in for Youngs never know
Saracens - He'd instantly be their best scrum half
Exeter - Chudley and Lewis are average, but have they got the budget?
Wasps - Got Simpson and Robson, unlikely to go for another young 9
Saints - Possiblity - Fotu'alili is not looking great, and Dickson is decent but Webb a step up

Feel a tad slighted

Haha, sorry CJ! I just went through last season's top 6, and I actually think there's not a cat's chance in hell that he'd replace Care anyway!

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Post by Dontheman2 Wed 02 Dec 2015, 3:25 pm

LD. I'm relieved if that's the case. Saw it in TRP and glad to see it refuted. I'm more worried about the consequences for the DC than RW moving on.

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Post by Exiledinborders Wed 02 Dec 2015, 3:26 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I ignored similar players for the Welsh set-up such as Anscombe and Collins. Quite a number of English players in there as well, qualifying through parentage and grand parentage. Probably easier we just stick with NSQ and NWQ, and on that basis the Welsh and Scottish sides are pretty much the same, as I have demonstrated.

That is such a poor argument, seriously, are we going to count players who have lived in the country since they were babies then ? If that is the case you could count the likes of Sam Hidalgo-Clyne,Henry Pyrgos, Tom Seymore, Blair Cowan, John Hardie, Tim Swinson, Ryan Wilson and Denton in Scotlands long outstanding non Scottish players. They are the payers who have qualified, not including those who have not yet.

The Welsh sides, and the Welsh national side are a world of difference away from the Scottish sides when it comes to this. Lets face facts Edinburgh and Glasgow have a long list of NSQ players most of whom have gone onto represent Scotland. At least the Welsh players who you claim are not Welsh have some sort of affiliation with the country and have not just been up here for three years.

Anyway, I do not think the Scottish sides have overtaken the Welsh sides, not all of them anyway.

Now you've lost me!

The only "rugby tourists" if you like, those who have moved country in order to qualify and without a prior affiliation to Scotland (and currently play for Scotland), are Nel, Strauss and Visser.

Those you have listed above are no different to a number of players within the Welsh set-up. They all qualify through family ties, and were not born in Scotland.

I have set out the facts above. Within the current IRB rules, the Welsh regions have just as many NWQ on offer as the two Scottish sides (based on a quick look at last weekend). Your initial point was that the Welsh regions serve the Welsh international side better than the Scottish professional teams (who are "full of time serving SH players"). I have demonstrated clearly that you are wrong, based on the facts of NWQ vs NSQ. That the Dragons had more NWQ players than Edinburgh had NSQ players surprised me actually, but them the facts.
I agree. It is a bit rich for any Welsh supporter to comment on Scotland when in the RWC Wales had eleven players born outside the country which is more than any other country. Amazingly they included nine Englishmen.

Englishmen? Poor WUM. Why does it matter where they're born? While we're at it do any of the following also matter; sexual orientation, religious views, political views, colour, race? How the hell this topic gets dragged into most Welsh threads I'll never know!
Firstly I was just pointing out that it is hypocritical for Welsh supporters to accuse Scotland of importing non Scots when Wales do this more than any other team.

As for the larger point we seem to be in the position where national teams can play just about anybody based on either a very short residence or where one of their grannies was born. On that basis I am qualified for England, Scotland, Ireland and China (do they have a team?). Representative rugby become meaningless when players can represent any country. Just base it on place of birth or long term residence say ten years.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 02 Dec 2015, 3:43 pm

That is a discussion to be had elsewhere. Place of birth can't really define anything given people's working and travelling behavior.

But it is worth reinforcing what Exiled said in that the nationality debate in this thread was not started by an English poster.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 02 Dec 2015, 4:03 pm

Anyway back to Rhys Webb moving to the premiership. The only news I can find of anything of the sort was from the rugby paper from a year ago:-

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/20000/exlusive-aviva-clubs-close-in-on-deals-for-welsh-stars/

Dontheman2 wrote:LD. I'm relieved if that's the case. Saw it in TRP and glad to see it refuted. I'm more worried about the consequences for the DC than RW moving on.

Don, if this is the article from the Rugby Paper that you read, then it is over a year old so I would not worry about it if I were you.thumbsup

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