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Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December

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Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December - Page 4 Empty Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December

Post by George Carlin Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:54 am

First topic message reminder :

Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December - Page 4 Munste11           Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December - Page 4 Leices10 
Munster Rugby v Leicester Tigers

Saturday 12 December 2015
KO: 19:45
Thomond Park, Limerick

Live on BT Sport / beIN Sports

Referee Romain Poite (France)
Touch Judge 1 Tual Trainini (France)
Touch Judge 2 Laurent Breil (France)
Fourth Official Ken Imbusch (Ireland)
TMO Gilles Cogne (France)

A. Head to Head

4 Played 4
2 Wins 2
2 Losses 2
0 Draws 0
56 Points 54

B. Recent Form

27 August 2010
Munster 13-17 Leicester

20 January 2007
Munster 6 - 13 Leicester

22 Oct 2006
Leicester 19 - 21 Munster  

13 April 2003
Leicester 7 - 20 Munster

25 May 2002
Leicester 15 - 9 Munster

C. Teams
Munster Rugby
Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December - Page 4 Graham10
15 Andrew Conway, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Francis Saili, 12 Denis Hurley, 11 Simon Zebo, 10 Ian Keatley, 9 Conor Murray, 1 James Cronin, 2 Niall Scannell, 3 BJ Botha, 4 Dave Foley, 5 Donnacha Ryan, 6 Robin Copeland, 7 Dave O'Callaghan, 8 CJ Stander (c).

Replacements: Mike Sherry, Dave Kilcoyne, John Ryan, Mark Chisholm, Jack O'Donoghue, Tomás O'Leary, Tyler Bleyendaal, Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino.

Leicester Tigers
Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December - Page 4 Gok-wa10
15 Telusa Veainu, 14 Adam Thompstone, 13 Matt Smith, 12 Seremaia Bai, 11 Vereniki Goneva, 10 Owen Williams, 9 Ben Youngs, 1 Marcos Ayerza, 2 Tom Youngs, 3 Dan Cole, 4 Graham Kitchener, 5 Mike Fitzgerald, 6 Ed Slater (c), 7 Brendon O'Connor, 8 Lachlan McCaffrey.

Replacements: 16 Harry Thacker, 17 Matias Aguero, 18 Fraser Balmain, 19 Dom Barrow, 20 Tom Croft, 21 Sam Harrison, 22 Tommy Bell, 23 Gonzalo Camacho.


Last edited by George Carlin on Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:31 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December - Page 4 Empty Re: Champions Cup Pool 4: Munster v Leicester Tigers, 12 December

Post by doctor_grey Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:56 pm

stub wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just turned the match on in time to see the last three minutes.  The commentators were saying Munster had 70% possession in the first half.  Is that right?  

I was catching up on the match by reading the comments on this thread.  Were Leicester really better?  In Thomond Park?  That is remarkable.  Thomond is usually a great place to watch Rugby as a visitor if one likes to see their team lose (but with great folk in the stadium).  

Leicester looked the better team to me Doc. And yes Munster had loads of procession first half. Munster didn't look right, not decisive and not that much self belief. Leicester on the other hand looked measured and confident.
Thanks. From what I am hearing on the post-game it seems the packs were pretty much even. Was Youngs that much of a difference for Leicester? Cockers was just raving about him.

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Post by Pot Hale Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:56 pm

nathan wrote:Is foley allowed to talk to polite at half time?

I suspect it was one-way. He talked at him by saying it was a big decision.

Maybe he's not allowed to even do that and could get banned for the next game.
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Post by nathan Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:58 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
nathan wrote:Is foley allowed to talk to polite at half time?

I suspect it was one-way. He talked at him by saying it was a big decision.

Maybe he's not allowed to even do that and could get banned for the next game.
If he's guilty I doubt he'll get a ban, think they just fine them.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:58 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Just turned the match on in time to see the last three minutes.  The commentators were saying Munster had 70% possession in the first half.  Is that right?  

I was catching up on the match by reading the comments on this thread.  Were Leicester really better?  In Thomond Park?  That is remarkable.  Thomond is usually a great place to watch Rugby as a visitor if one likes to see their team lose (but with great folk in the stadium).  

For the first 30 minutes Munster were far more physical at the breakdown and just stopped Tigers putting phases together. However, they lost the rolling mauls repeatedly and otherwise struggled to generate threatening attacks to the Tigers line. Keatley missing a sitter three in front of the posts didn't help. Tigers went 20 odd metres on a rolling maul and Munster dragged it down a pass out wide and a fabulous step from Goneva got Tigers a try and then Tigers upped the intensity and took the game to Munster. Applied pressure and forced an error and another try.

Second half Munster came out like a freight train and got 10 points as well as Ayerza sin binned. They then fizzled out a bit and Tigers opened them up for Youngs to score the try he'd threatened earlier. Munster kicked on again and scored a try from a very good set of attacking phases of play. Tigers extended the gap with another penalty and Munster just seemed to lack the imagination to score another try.

Didn't help the Tigers scrum was dominant and Tigers were 100% on their line out. As Munster tired the dual opensides of Tigers just made more of a menace of themselves.

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Post by nathan Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:00 pm

How many scrums were there, didn't seem that many tonight

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Post by Pot Hale Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:02 pm

nathan wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
nathan wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Poite gave Leicester that try with his decision on the block on Conway. It was quite deliberate.
Wasn't the first offence a push by a Munster player?

It looked like that. But a subsequent angle shows Cole pushing the Munster 6 who then collides with the Leicester 5 who 'stumbles' backward into Conway.

It was street smart by Cole - thems the breaks.
To be fair, Cole did nudge him but only slightly and certainly not as hard as the Munster 6

You need to look at the incident again from the angles that BT have shown a few times now.
Yeah just seen it again and probably agree with you, still Munster should of stopped the maul

You probably agree with me??

Are you uncertain about agreeing with the penalty decision?

The maul was all Leicester's doing and full marks to them. The penalty reversal turned their momentum though is the point that Foley was making. I don't go with the theory that it changed the end result cos it was first half, but it was a big, wrong call in my view.

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Post by LondonTiger Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:If Munster lose next Saturday I will forego chocolate for the rest of December.

Ah well no more chocolate. I will however rescind this decision if we lose next week.

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Post by Welly Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:08 pm

Leicester have really seemed to have turned a corner with Mauger.

And in what seems like a very short space of time.

Starting to get excited with all the re-signings and Toomua coming.

What a difference the right coaches can make.

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Post by VinceWLB Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:09 pm

nathan wrote:How many scrums were there, didn't seem that many tonight

There weren't many indeed and i completely disagreed with the last scrum penalty as Ayerza was boring in yet Munster TH was somehow penalised for driving towards the opposite hooker which doesn't make sense to me.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:18 pm

Tigers were going forward and had been all game so got away with any angle on the last scrum. My understanding is that the tight head aims to get his under the chest of the hooker by borring in and destabilise the opposition scrum.

As I said earlier the assistant had his flag out so Poite stopped play prematurely. When it transpired that there was no penalty against Leicester he couldn't go back to open play Tigers possession. I think he should have opted for a Tigers scrum though that would have probably ended up with a penalty and driving line out anyway. Instead he panicked a touch and just pinged Munster harshly.

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Post by stub Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:18 am

doctor_grey wrote:
stub wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just turned the match on in time to see the last three minutes.  The commentators were saying Munster had 70% possession in the first half.  Is that right?  

I was catching up on the match by reading the comments on this thread.  Were Leicester really better?  In Thomond Park?  That is remarkable.  Thomond is usually a great place to watch Rugby as a visitor if one likes to see their team lose (but with great folk in the stadium).  

Leicester looked the better team to me Doc. And yes Munster had loads of procession first half. Munster didn't look right, not decisive and not that much self belief. Leicester on the other hand looked measured and confident.
Thanks.  From what I am hearing on the post-game it seems the packs were pretty much even.  Was Youngs that much of a difference for Leicester?  Cockers was just raving about him.  

Youngs had a great game - lots of dangerous speculative runs. Best I've seen him for ages but not sure he was the difference - certainly made a big contribution though.

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Post by profitius Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:22 am

Well done Leicester. Munster's loss isn't a surprise, if you have been watching them this season.
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Post by eirebilly Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:17 am

Once again, well done Leicester and their fans. That was a very good win away and a pretty quality match. After sustaining that much pressure it was a sign of a club moving in the right direction that they were able to turn it on when they needed it the most.

Munster are a very good team when they are dictating play but again (as they were against Connacht) pulled apart when Leicester created quick ball.

That Leicester driving maul (the one that deserved a PT) in the lead up to their try was one of the best mauls I have seen for years, so quick and powerful.
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Post by VinceWLB Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:31 am

I like how Rob Penney was getting all that flak when at the end of the day he wasn't that bad a coach. Munster are going down the Toulouse road, promoting inexperienced coaches from within and you don't get away with it at this level.

Who in his right mind can say with a straight face Keatley is a better option than Hanrahan?

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Post by eirebilly Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:35 am

Vince, in no way was Keatley a better option than JJ going forward. Absolutely poor man management there. As I posted at the time, I would have preferred he went to Connacht (if he had to go) to form a partnership with Marmion.

Murray's form is also rather concerning right now...
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:39 am

Hanrahan has a worse time of it yesterday Vince. Munster could have done with him, probably at 12, to inject some attacking pave into the game alongside Saili. Munster showed flashes of really nice attacking rugby but weren't consistent ball in hand.

Tigers have five coaches and all bar one have played for the club. The one that hasn't has been a long term friend of one of the other coaches. For two of the five this is their first coaching position and it is also Cockerill's only go at the head job. Nothing wrong with promoting internally but what's been crucial for Tigers is bringing back Mauger (former player who coached a bit in his final season) to give a fresh perception on things having got some experience in NZ. Mixing up the coaching staff with a new addition and a fresh view is all Munster probably need as they weren't poor last night just inaccurate and at times unlucky.

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Post by Sin é Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:50 am

VinceWLB wrote:I like how Rob Penney was getting all that flak when at the end of the day he wasn't that bad a coach. Munster are going down the Toulouse road, promoting inexperienced coaches from within and you don't get away with it at this level.

Who in his right mind can say with a straight face Keatley is a better option than Hanrahan?

I wasn't giving Rob Penney any flack when he was here, but he still had ROG as his first choice outhalf with POC & DOC as well.

As for Keatley - his performance was hardly a surprise last night considering he was publicly humiliated with the Madigan to Munster news. A lot of people blaming Foley for Hanrahan leaving. What was he meant to do? Hanrahan was offered a 3 year contract (and Keatley 2 years). Munster needed both. I suppose Foley will be blamed if Zebo leaves (and I wouldn't be surprised if Conor Murray moved on now). If there is no decent investment in the Provinces, all the best players will leave.

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Post by eirebilly Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:58 am

Personally I feel that JJ's decision to leave had a lot to do with him not getting enough starts. He did more than enough to prove he was a better 10 than Keatley but constantly go put on the reserve bench and was being more seen as a utility back.
Had Munster bitten the bullet and shown some faith in him and gave him the starting 10 position, I see no reason as to why he would have left.

I really like Foley and can see what he is trying to do, there were moments in last nights game where Munster looked almost unstoppable. It will get better and he is the man for the job as far as I am concerned.
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Post by Sin é Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:59 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Hanrahan has a worse time of it yesterday Vince. Munster could have done with him, probably at 12, to inject some attacking pave into the game alongside Saili. Munster showed flashes of really nice attacking rugby but weren't consistent ball in hand.

Tigers have five coaches and all bar one have played for the club. The one that hasn't has been a long term friend of one of the other coaches. For two of the five this is their first coaching position and it is also Cockerill's only go at the head job. Nothing wrong with promoting internally but what's been crucial for Tigers is bringing back Mauger (former player who coached a bit in his final season) to give a fresh perception on things having got some experience in NZ. Mixing up the coaching staff with a new addition and a fresh view is all Munster probably need as they weren't poor last night just inaccurate and at times unlucky.

The reason why JJ left was because he wanted to play 10. He was getting plenty of gametime at 12 with Munster before he left.

The problem with Munster (and all the Provinces) is that they are handicapped with who and what they can recruit by the IRFU. ROG could be Munster's Mauger, but he is staying in France because lets face it, the job is a bit easier coaching the squad that Racing Metro have over coaching Munster where you are on a hiding to nothing. In the last 2 years, the Provinces have lost coaching staff of Jono Gibbs to Clermont (still forwards coach), Dan McFarland (Glasgow), Rob Penney (Japan) and Matt O'Connor & Anscombe were sacked and Plumtree hardly lasted a year when he headed back to NZ.

By the way, congratulations to the Tigers and well done.
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Post by Sin é Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:10 pm

eirebilly wrote:Personally I feel that JJ's decision to leave had a lot to do with him not getting enough starts. He did more than enough to prove he was a better 10 than Keatley but constantly go put on the reserve bench and was being more seen as a utility back.
Had Munster bitten the bullet and shown some faith in him and gave him the starting 10 position, I see no reason as to why he would have left.

I really like Foley and can see what he is trying to do, there were moments in last nights game where Munster looked almost unstoppable. It will get better and he is the man for the job as far as I am concerned.

JJ has had 3 starts for Northampton out of a possible 7 so far. Even though he was managing a groin injury (as was Keatley), he still managed to start half his games for Munster. The season he left he was injured in the early part of the season, and when he came back Felix got injured and he had to cover for him at fullback.

He didn't make any of Schmidt's squads, so I'd say that might have been one of the reasons why he decided to move on because he knew he wasn't going to get a look in for the world cup (having been on Emerging Ireland tours).

It also wouldn't surprise me if Foley was instructed by Schmidt to start Keatley at 10 because at that stage Sexton was having a long lay off because of all his concussions and Paddy Jackson was injured. A bit worrying from an Ireland point of view heading into a world cup.


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Post by eirebilly Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:22 pm

The way I see it Sin é, if he was given the chance to get ahead of Keatley (injuries aside) he may have got a look in at the RWC squad. I had a feeling for a while that he was being developed into a utility back to cover several positions which was not what he wanted.
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Post by Sin é Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:43 pm

eirebilly wrote:The way I see it Sin é, if he was given the chance to get ahead of Keatley (injuries aside) he may have got a look in at the RWC squad. I had a feeling for a while that he was being developed into a utility back to cover several positions which was not what he wanted.

In his last season with Munster, he was continuing to deal with his groin problem at the start of the season. His first couple of starts were at 10 (at the end of September). His first start not at 10 was 21st November (he started at 15 where he played twice there). Then back to starting at 10 again, playing at 12 twice before announcing that he was going to Northampton.

After that Munster used him as a utility back (and rightly so).

edit: Northampton (one year on in his career) have been also using him as a 12 - he has had fewer starts at 10 than he did this time last year with Munster (when he also had a late start to his season because of injury).

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Post by nathan Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:59 pm

I would imagine Northampton will start to use him more at 10 as they will need to start managing myler

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:25 pm

He's played a couple of games in a row at 10. I've only seen he humiliating score from yesterday but the week before vs Bath he didn't stand out and his kicking from hand wasn't as good as I expected it to be (Irish flyhalfs have a tenancy to kick the ball sweetly from hand), conditions limited ball in hand but Ford looked better. Then again his error count was much lower than Ford's. He's been used at 12 when Saints have been chasing games and he's come off the bench to add attacking impetus. In those situations they didn't want to miss the solid boot of Myler.

What I didn't get with Keatley yesterday was his second half display. First thing he did was put in a beautiful to have finder and pin us back. Put us in all kinds of problems and Munster applied pressure and scored. He didn't try another one and neither did his replacement. Mystified me. If that had been ROG with the wind behind him we'd have spent close to the entire half trying to get out of our 22 but Keatley let us off the hook a little.

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