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The Pro12 teams need to do something or else.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Dec 2015, 12:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pro12 teams will not be able to compete with this, something needs to be doen, and done fast. There will be no decent players in the Pro12 at this rate, Rhys Priestland is earning 290K a year at bath, George North 300K at Northampton how are we supposed to compete with that ? I mean come on, Bath already had George Ford, I doubt Priestland will be a bench warmer on that money. Also news that teams are chasing the likes of Madigan, all our best players will be in France or England before long. Take a look at the money being thrown around in the Aviva:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-set-earn-staggering-10560435


Last edited by LordDowlais on Mon 07 Dec 2015, 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:23 am

There already is a natural movement of players between the countries as you have John Barclay at Scarlets, Dan Parks was at Cardiff and Connacht, James Downey was at Glasgow for 5 mins last season, Tommy Seymour went to Glasgow from Ulster and is now Scottish qualified with Michael Allen hoping to do the same at Edinburgh where John Andress is playing, Leinster had Nathan Hines in the past, Ulster had Del Fava, Ospreys Tibaldi and Bowe and Danielli and Zebre have used Ian McKinney this season

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:36 am

And this kind of natural should be further encouraged and where appropriate incentivised.

You say that Leinster don't have room for Madigan so why should they be forced to take in Scottish or Italian players. I didn't argue for this at all.

Madigan is out of contract shortly. He doesn't want to stay at Leinster so rather than him move to Bath or Bordeaux-Begles, they're looking to shift him to Munster. If he doesn't want that and fancies a life in England or France, then no problem.

But, in this proposed scenario, if he does, then he won't be considered for test selection. If another PRO12 club pops up and offer him a good deal and he takes that up, then he would be considered for test duty.
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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:38 am

And in your proposed scenario if he takes the foreign offer Ireland are down an out half which they wouldn't be under the current setup

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:41 am

But if everyone kept to the proposal of not picking players outside the Pro 12 for national teams it'll have an effect on those players choices. You'll lose a few like England have but the serious ones, the big names will stay.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But if everyone kept to the proposal of not picking players outside the Pro 12 for national teams it'll have an effect on those players choices. You'll lose a few like England have but the serious ones, the big names will stay.

but still how can this help Scotland and Italy without harming Wales and Ireland?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:51 am

It's not primarily about helping countries but about helping this perceived problem of losing marquee players from the league. Realistically the English setup doesn't overly help the national team but helps keep the Aviva stronger.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 09 Dec 2015, 10:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not primarily about helping countries but about helping this perceived problem of losing marquee players from the league. Realistically the English setup doesn't overly help the national team but helps keep the Aviva stronger.

The English system is a single union and a single league. Easier to enforce and no real balancing needed. As it is the system in place helps strengthen the league and, imo, helps the England team too. (I am sick and tired of players running off to France because they are not good enough to play for England, then bleating about their non-selection)

The Pro12 countries all have differing agendas with their union in a single league driven only because they are unable to sustain a professional league on their own. The four individual Unions then have their own interests - mainly the strength of the International teams. Improving the quality of the Pro12 is not high on their agendas - especially if doing so weakens the national team.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not primarily about helping countries but about helping this perceived problem of losing marquee players from the league. Realistically the English setup doesn't overly help the national team but helps keep the Aviva stronger.

Which marquee players have been lost?

North? Roberts? Sexton?

Who in the Pro12 can match those wages? Losing Sexton from the Ireland tam probably loses them 2 6Ns titles, the winnings from which are reinvested in the Provinces and allowing Ulster to sign Charles Piutau

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But if everyone kept to the proposal of not picking players outside the Pro 12 for national teams it'll have an effect on those players choices. You'll lose a few like England have but the serious ones, the big names will stay.
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.
Don't get me wrong I don't blame the players one little bit, it's a short career and they need to make as much as they can, if the ultimatum had been issued at that time, they would know exactly where they stand, people going at 30 onwards I have no problem with, although at this time I would hate for AWJ to leave.
Some have argued that we don't have the players to be able to run such a system, I disagree, the WC showed we do have the players, we were down to our 5th or 6th choice centre.
The point now we have lost this opportunity as Gatland is leaving and we don't know who his replacement will be, unless the WRU tells the incoming coach this is the system we are going to follow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:04 am

Very true LT, and I said early doors it would be a difficult negotiation but something worth considering possibly.

marty, the point being who in England can match the French teams? No one but the ruling that if you play outseide england you don't get considered means that players choose their country over extra money, unless your Armitage.

Again no easy solution but a ban on outside Pro 12 may work to strengthen the league whereas a rule of outside a Scottish club for example is completely unworkable.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:05 am

wayne wrote:
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.

Roberts went to Quins because it allowed him the opportunity to go to Cambridge and do his Masters, Faletau wanted to go to Bath after the Regions+2 came in so he would have been risking his international career still

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:06 am

But they know they'll be picked for Wales if they play over in England.

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:09 am

marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.

Roberts went to Quins because it allowed him the opportunity to go to Cambridge and do his Masters, Faletau wanted to go to Bath after the Regions+2 came in so he would have been risking his international career still
I'm sure the Blues or any of the Regions would have allowed him his little jaunt to Cambridge, would Faletau have left at this time if he knew his International career was over, I seriously doubt it, you make your bed go and lie in it.

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Post by Guest Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:11 am

wayne wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But if everyone kept to the proposal of not picking players outside the Pro 12 for national teams it'll have an effect on those players choices. You'll lose a few like England have but the serious ones, the big names will stay.
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.
Don't get me wrong I don't blame the players one little bit, it's a short career and they need to make as much as they can, if the ultimatum had been issued at that time, they would know exactly where they stand, people going at 30 onwards I have no problem with, although at this time I would hate for AWJ to leave.
Some have argued that we don't have the players to be able to run such a system, I disagree, the WC showed we do have the players, we were down to our 5th or 6th choice centre.
The point now we have lost this opportunity as Gatland is leaving and we don't know who his replacement will be, unless the WRU tells the incoming coach this is the system we are going to follow.

You see, this is where I disagree. I reckon, given the previous success some of these top Welsh players have had they might be more than willing to turn their backs on Wales for a mega contract in France/England towards the mid-latter parts of their careers. A lot of them have won grand slams, been to a few world cups including a semi final, etc. European success is what's missing in their trophy cabinets. I think Gatland agrees with me deep down which is why he hasn't enforced it - he feels he could be excluding some of his best players. They could very easily call his bluff. That's a large spine of the squad to potentially lose to a WRU rule. I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland has spoken to the players off the record and asked them "would you go and make yourself un-pickable". In fact, I'd be more surprised if he hasn't asked, them off the record. Why wouldn't he?! They must talk all the time. It's bound to come up.

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:13 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But they know they'll be picked for Wales if they play over in England.
Obviously, yet without the time with the Welsh squad that Welsh based players would have, if the ultimatum had been issued when the contract extension was announced around 2012, this would not have happened.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:14 am

Ah we'll, Faletau is off to Bath. He will be entertaining people in England now. He is a massive loss to the Pro12, and a massive gain for the Aviva.

Let's not worry though, there are no problems for our sides in the league.

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Post by Guest Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:16 am

I take it Faletau goes free now then?

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:18 am

wayne wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.

Roberts went to Quins because it allowed him the opportunity to go to Cambridge and do his Masters, Faletau wanted to go to Bath after the Regions+2 came in so he would have been risking his international career still
I'm sure the Blues or any of the Regions would have allowed him his little jaunt to Cambridge, would Faletau have left at this time if he knew his International career was over, I seriously doubt it, you make your bed go and lie in it.

Maybe you want to go check your facts on Faletau, he didn't move because Gatland blocked it because it was outside the 2 exceptions who were Priestland and Roberts, with Priestland taking a sabbatical North takes the second place now

I doubt Roberts would have fancied travelling from Cardiff to Cambridge to study a few times a week. A Masters is hard enough, never mind training full time along with a 400 mile round trip thrown in it would have been impossible

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:Ah we'll, Faletau is off to Bath. He will be entertaining people in England now. He is a massive loss to the Pro12, and a massive gain for the Aviva.

Let's not worry though, there are no problems for our sides in the league.

If Faletau goes to Bath then the regulations Pot Hale proposed would make no difference as it would be the same end result

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:20 am

Griff wrote:
wayne wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But if everyone kept to the proposal of not picking players outside the Pro 12 for national teams it'll have an effect on those players choices. You'll lose a few like England have but the serious ones, the big names will stay.
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.
Don't get me wrong I don't blame the players one little bit, it's a short career and they need to make as much as they can, if the ultimatum had been issued at that time, they would know exactly where they stand, people going at 30 onwards I have no problem with, although at this time I would hate for AWJ to leave.
Some have argued that we don't have the players to be able to run such a system, I disagree, the WC showed we do have the players, we were down to our 5th or 6th choice centre.
The point now we have lost this opportunity as Gatland is leaving and we don't know who his replacement will be, unless the WRU tells the incoming coach this is the system we are going to follow.

You see, this is where I disagree.  I reckon, given the previous success some of these top Welsh players have had they might be more than willing to turn their backs on Wales for a mega contract in France/England towards the mid-latter parts of their careers.  A lot of them have won grand slams, been to a few world cups including a semi final, etc.  European success is what's missing in their trophy cabinets.  I think Gatland agrees with me deep down which is why he hasn't enforced it - he feels he could be excluding some of his best players.  They could very easily call his bluff.  That's a large spine of the squad to potentially lose to a WRU rule.  I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland has spoken to the players off the record and asked them "would you go and make yourself un-pickable".  In fact, I'd be more surprised if he hasn't asked, them off the record.  Why wouldn't he?!  They must talk all the time.  It's bound to come up.
I've already said Griff, if they take the money and run, I don't blame them one little bit, it's a short career, there had already been talk about a Gatland's law, if anything it is more lax now than at that time, if it was the serious ultimatum that I and others proposed then, I don't believe either of those would have gone.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:20 am

Griff wrote:I take it Faletau goes free now then?  

Yep, and I hope Gatland sticks to his guns and does not pick him for Wales. I doubt that will happen though. Rolling Eyes

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:22 am

I reckon Doc Roberts would have gone to Cambridge even if it meant the end of his international career.

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Post by Chunky Norwich Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:23 am

marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.

Roberts went to Quins because it allowed him the opportunity to go to Cambridge and do his Masters, Faletau wanted to go to Bath after the Regions+2 came in so he would have been risking his international career still
I'm sure the Blues or any of the Regions would have allowed him his little jaunt to Cambridge, would Faletau have left at this time if he knew his International career was over, I seriously doubt it, you make your bed go and lie in it.

Maybe you want to go check your facts
on Faletau, he didn't move because Gatland blocked it because it was outside the 2 exceptions who were Priestland and Roberts, with Priestland taking a sabbatical North takes the second place now

I doubt Roberts would have fancied travelling from Cardiff to Cambridge to study a few times a week. A Masters is hard enough, never mind training full time along with a 400 mile round trip thrown in it would have been impossible

You sure you got your facts right there?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:26 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ah we'll, Faletau is off to Bath. He will be entertaining people in England now. He is a massive loss to the Pro12, and a massive gain for the Aviva.

Let's not worry though, there are no problems for our sides in the league.

If Faletau goes to Bath then the regulations Pot Hale proposed would make no difference as it would be the same end result

But the Pro12, OUR LEAGUE, is a lot less without him in it. Why do you refuse to see the bigger picture here ? No wonder we cannot generate good money from the league, the potential sponsors must be thinking, why they should put money into a league, when the best players do not even want to play in it.

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Post by Guest Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:I reckon Doc Roberts would have gone to Cambridge even if it meant the end of his international career.

Yes, this is what I was saying above (albeit rather long winded). The WRU and Gats have not gone ahead with a 'Gats Law' as they feel and perhaps know that it will not be enough of a deterrent for our top players who have been there and done it at international level. We've got little strength in depth as it is. Excluding our top players, who are deemed good enough to be offered contracts by top teams at the business end of tough competitions, seems silly. I want the best players playing for Wales. If they live and play in Bath then I'm OK with that. If they fall down the pecking order, then fair enough and tough luck. But if we still need them then it's ridiculous to cut them off and deliberately bar them from selection.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:29 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.

Roberts went to Quins because it allowed him the opportunity to go to Cambridge and do his Masters, Faletau wanted to go to Bath after the Regions+2 came in so he would have been risking his international career still
I'm sure the Blues or any of the Regions would have allowed him his little jaunt to Cambridge, would Faletau have left at this time if he knew his International career was over, I seriously doubt it, you make your bed go and lie in it.

Maybe you want to go check your facts
on Faletau, he didn't move because Gatland blocked it because it was outside the 2 exceptions who were Priestland and Roberts, with Priestland taking a sabbatical North takes the second place now

I doubt Roberts would have fancied travelling from Cardiff to Cambridge to study a few times a week. A Masters is hard enough, never mind training full time along with a 400 mile round trip thrown in it would have been impossible

You sure you got your facts right there?

I should have said will probably now take the second place, that's the speculation never been confirmed though

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:31 am

marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
I argued this point, when Gatland had his contract extension to 2019, if he had said at that point after the 2015 WC, if you either sign to go and play outside of Wales or sign an extension to leave here you forfeit the right to play for us, would Roberts have done the Harlequins gig, would Faletau contemplated going to Bath, I don't think they would.

Roberts went to Quins because it allowed him the opportunity to go to Cambridge and do his Masters, Faletau wanted to go to Bath after the Regions+2 came in so he would have been risking his international career still
I'm sure the Blues or any of the Regions would have allowed him his little jaunt to Cambridge, would Faletau have left at this time if he knew his International career was over, I seriously doubt it, you make your bed go and lie in it.

Maybe you want to go check your facts on Faletau, he didn't move because Gatland blocked it because it was outside the 2 exceptions who were Priestland and Roberts, with Priestland taking a sabbatical North takes the second place now

I doubt Roberts would have fancied travelling from Cardiff to Cambridge to study a few times a week. A Masters is hard enough, never mind training full time along with a 400 mile round trip thrown in it would have been impossible
Marty we are at cross purposes here, I'm not talking about the stopping of Faletau going a few months ago, I 'm saying if a proper Gatland's law had been brought in when Gatland signed his contract extension in IIRC 2012, and issued that ultimatum at the time, these would not have happened, and if they had, well good luck to you.
As for Roberts I remember reading somewhere that the Blues were willing to offer him his sabbatical anyway, to do a Masters you don't have to be in situ.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:32 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ah we'll, Faletau is off to Bath. He will be entertaining people in England now. He is a massive loss to the Pro12, and a massive gain for the Aviva.

Let's not worry though, there are no problems for our sides in the league.

If Faletau goes to Bath then the regulations Pot Hale proposed would make no difference as it would be the same end result

But the Pro12, OUR LEAGUE, is a lot less without him in it. Why do you refuse to see the bigger picture here ? No wonder we cannot generate good money from the league,  the potential sponsors must be thinking, why they should put money into a league, when the best players do not even want to play in it.

How am I not seeing the big picture? Just because the suggestions being put out aren't any good doesn't mean I don't see the big picture, I actually think the ideas put forward make no real difference and just create the same problems elsewhere

I also don't see how Scottish players playing in Ireland will boost the league as that's not yet been explained

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Post by TJ Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:34 am

Also if this weird plan not to allow our players to play outside the pro 12 ever happened it would automatially reduce the places available for other great players who light up the league. Pienaar, Matawalo DTH( I know they has moved on) Nakawara, Big Tacky etc etc.

Its just a stupid idea that would damage both the league and the national sides

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:36 am

Works in England.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:37 am

But still think the important thing is to consider the overall quality of the team rather than big names. Don't pay over the odds, build teams. Much more important.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:40 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ah we'll, Faletau is off to Bath. He will be entertaining people in England now. He is a massive loss to the Pro12, and a massive gain for the Aviva.

Let's not worry though, there are no problems for our sides in the league.

If Faletau goes to Bath then the regulations Pot Hale proposed would make no difference as it would be the same end result

But the Pro12, OUR LEAGUE, is a lot less without him in it. Why do you refuse to see the bigger picture here ? No wonder we cannot generate good money from the league,  the potential sponsors must be thinking, why they should put money into a league, when the best players do not even want to play in it.

How am I not seeing the big picture? Just because the suggestions being put out aren't any good doesn't mean I don't see the big picture, I actually think the ideas put forward make no real difference and just create the same problems elsewhere

I also don't see how Scottish players playing in Ireland will boost the league as that's not yet been explained



You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:40 am

wayne wrote:
I doubt Roberts would have fancied travelling from Cardiff to Cambridge to study a few times a week. A Masters is hard enough, never mind training full time along with a 400 mile round trip thrown in it would have been impossible
Marty we are at cross purposes here, I'm not talking about the stopping of Faletau going a few months ago, I 'm saying if a proper Gatland's law had been brought in when Gatland signed his contract extension in IIRC 2012, and issued that ultimatum at the time, these would not have happened, and if they had, well good luck to you.
As for Roberts I remember reading somewhere that the Blues were willing to offer him his sabbatical anyway, to do a Masters you don't have to be in situ.[/quote]

You still get the same problem with Roberts though were he is not playing in the league and he may not want to stop playing

The problem with Gatlands Law is that it needed the agreement of the Regions, that wasn't exactly an easy ask back then

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:

You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

You're reverting to type LD putting words in my mouth, where have I said there is nothing wrong?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:45 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

You're reverting to type LD putting words in my mouth, where have I said there is nothing wrong?

So you now admit, that the Pro12 has issues that needs addressing and everyone needs to get together before other leagues leave us behind ?

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:46 am

marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
I doubt Roberts would have fancied travelling from Cardiff to Cambridge to study a few times a week. A Masters is hard enough, never mind training full time along with a 400 mile round trip thrown in it would have been impossible
Marty we are at cross purposes here, I'm not talking about the stopping of Faletau going a few months ago, I 'm saying if a proper Gatland's law had been brought in when Gatland signed his contract extension in IIRC 2012, and issued that ultimatum at the time, these would not have happened, and if they had, well good luck to you.
As for Roberts I remember reading somewhere that the Blues were willing to offer him his sabbatical anyway, to do a Masters you don't have to be in situ.

You still get the same problem with Roberts though were he is not playing in the league and he may not want to stop playing

The problem with Gatlands Law is that it needed the agreement of the Regions, that wasn't exactly an easy ask back then[/quote]
I'm sorry it's you that needs to check the facts, at that time, we (Regions) wanted that law, why wouldn't we want all our players playing in Wales, it was Lewis and Prickering that wanted the Regions weak.
As for your Roberts quote I'm sorry I don't know what you are trying to say there

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Post by TJ Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Works in England.

No it doesn't.  they lost 2 players at least who would have strengthened their WC squad and its much easier to implement with 12 teams not 2 anyway

It would also depress wages in the pro 12 making for even bigger temptation to move broad.

The pro 12 can be improved for sure but this is not the way at all.  Its a stupid idea and it would damage the league

IO think the issue with the disagreements is partly the different unions in the pro 12 have different issues which need different solutions. Maybe it would work for wales - it wouldn't work for scotland


Last edited by TJ on Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

You're reverting to type LD putting words in my mouth, where have I said there is nothing wrong?

So you now admit, that the Pro12 has issues that needs addressing and everyone needs to get together before other leagues leave us behind ?

Again you're attempting to put words in my mouth, I never said they are going to leave us behind but I have always said there are problems I just differ in my opinion of what they are and what solutions could be implemented

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:48 am

TJ wrote:Also if this weird plan not to allow our players to play outside the pro 12 ever happened it would automatially reduce the places available for other great players who light up the league.  Pienaar, Matawalo DTH( I know they has moved on) Nakawara, Big Tacky etc etc.  

Its just a stupid idea that would damage both the league and the national sides

Well if it's just a stupid idea, how would it damage both the league and the national sides?
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:51 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

You're reverting to type LD putting words in my mouth, where have I said there is nothing wrong?

So you now admit, that the Pro12 has issues that needs addressing and everyone needs to get together before other leagues leave us behind ?

Again you're attempting to put words in my mouth, I never said they are going to leave us behind but I have always said there are problems I just differ in my opinion of what they are and what solutions could be implemented

What would you see ad issues within the Pro 12 then ? Go on, you tell us, so I cannot put words into your mouth.

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Post by TJ Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:52 am

I have explained this numerous times

Lack of development opportunities for young players, lack of opportunity for players to get first team exposure, lack of playing places for big name players outside of the 5 countries

So for Scotland SHC, Kinghorn, Ickle Jonny etc would get less game time, no Matowalo, Nakawara, etc to pull in crowds

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:52 am

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Works in England.

No it doesn't.  they lost 2 players at least who would have strengthened their WC squad and its much easier to implement with 12 teams not 2 anyway

It would also depress wages in the pro 12 making for even bigger temptation to move broad.

The pro 12 can be improved for sure but this is not the way at all.  Its a stupid idea and it would damage the league

IO think the issue with the disagreements is partly the different unions in the pro 12 have different issues which need different solutions.  Maybe it would work for wales - it wouldn't work for scotland

Well some say Armitage would have helped but there's no one else out there. The point is that there would be a lot more English players over there if not for that rule as the money offered is much greater.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:53 am

TJ wrote:I have explained this numerous times

Lack of development opportunities for young players, lack of opportunity for players to get first team exposure, lack of playing places for big name players outside of the 5 countries

So for Scotland SHC, Kinghorn, Ickle Jonny etc would get less game time, no Matowalo, Nakawara, etc to pull in crowds

Why would those players get less games?

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Post by wayne Wed 09 Dec 2015, 11:55 am

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Works in England.

No it doesn't.  they lost 2 players at least who would have strengthened their WC squad and its much easier to implement with 12 teams not 2 anyway

It would also depress wages in the pro 12 making for even bigger temptation to move broad.

The pro 12 can be improved for sure but this is not the way at all.  Its a stupid idea and it would damage the league

IO think the issue with the disagreements is partly the different unions in the pro 12 have different issues which need different solutions.  Maybe it would work for wales - it wouldn't work for scotland
I for one agree with you there TJ, you don't have enough teams, and it is not your national sport, (not having a dig there), but in Wales with the 4 teams it should be able to work, we have a decent turn around of players because of the different competitions we play in, it's not so easy for you

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Post by Guest Wed 09 Dec 2015, 12:35 pm

I can see what people are saying about only two teams in Scotland, so maybe they are the exception. But saying it is a stupid idea is a bit silly. Ireland deliberately incentivises players to stay in Ireland with its tax breaks (ROI, not NI). If they were happy for players to develop abroad and make way for youngsters then they wouldn't bother offering this sort of thing. They wouldn't bother getting Sexton back either. Surely he's just made way for the next No10? So surely the IRFU sees something in keeping the best Irish players in Ireland? Are they stupid too? Wales are trying to get players back to Wales with DCs. Are the WRU stupid? Actually don't answer that! Even the Italian teams were given EXTRA money by the FIR for signing Italian players and bringing them home. What do the FIR see in that? There must be a reason they'd shell out extra money to bring Italian players home. And they've only got two sides too. England have attempted it too with the overseas player ruling. New Zealand too. They've got enough talent coming through AND 5 pro sides, so why not let their players go aboard and develop there? Why keep them at home by threatening their All Blacks spot?

I think it's maybe just the Scottish then...

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 12:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

You're reverting to type LD putting words in my mouth, where have I said there is nothing wrong?

So you now admit, that the Pro12 has issues that needs addressing and everyone needs to get together before other leagues leave us behind ?

Again you're attempting to put words in my mouth, I never said they are going to leave us behind but I have always said there are problems I just differ in my opinion of what they are and what solutions could be implemented

What would you see ad issues within the Pro 12 then ? Go on, you tell us, so I cannot put words into your mouth.

For one keeping the likes of Visser, North etc isn't the answer. You forget they were in the league already and weren't drawing huge crowds. If they were here great but they're not so the league should focus on what it does have.

There are some nice rivalries building up and every game is tougher than it used to be. This is something that should be focused on and hyped, with Sky on board I'm sure we will see this develop. The Millennium double header and the Xmas derbies should be widely hyped and the family day out experience should be a league wide overhyped marketing program.

The RFU last year started working in the US to help with the development of a US Pro League, the Pro12 missed a trick here as there is a huge market to be exploited especially with so many ex pats and people with Celtic and Italian heritage living there. With Sevens going into the Olympics the potential for the sport in other countries can be huge in the US, Japan and Russia plus the Sunwolves to Super Rugby, these are huge media markets that can bring revenue outside of the limitations of the current markets.

The Pro12 should also be working with Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Germany and Russia to develop the game there. This could lead to a second tier for the Pro12 down the line but again the growth of the game in these countries opens up markets for the Pro12 too for media and sponsors. Improved coaching and officiating here could see the better players and officials coming to the Pro12 improving standards here.

A highlights show on the BBC or Sky would also be great for the league as it would offer fans a better chance to keep up with what is going on with the league outside of their own teams.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 09 Dec 2015, 12:44 pm

Griff wrote:I can see what people are saying about only two teams in Scotland, so maybe they are the exception.  But saying it is a stupid idea is a bit silly.  Ireland deliberately incentivises players to stay in Ireland with its tax breaks (ROI, not NI).  If they were happy for players to develop abroad and make way for youngsters then they wouldn't bother offering this sort of thing.  They wouldn't bother getting Sexton back either.  Surely he's just made way for the next No10?  So surely the IRFU sees something in keeping the best Irish players in Ireland?  Are they stupid too?   Wales are trying to get players back to Wales with DCs.  Are the WRU stupid?  Actually don't answer that!  Even the Italian teams were given EXTRA money by the FIR for signing Italian players and bringing them home.  What do the FIR see in that?  There must be a reason they'd shell out extra money to bring Italian players home.  And they've only got two sides too.  England have attempted it too with the overseas player ruling.  New Zealand too.  They've got enough talent coming through AND 5 pro sides, so why not let their players go aboard and develop there?  Why keep them at home by threatening their All Blacks spot?

I think it's maybe just the Scottish then...

Griff, the tax breaks in Ireland are no more and were a govt policy not an IRFU one. When it was in place plenty of players moved abroad still, Ross, Cullen etc all played in England. The ABs have also lost plenty of players in the last few months, Beaduen Barretts going to be joining Slade, Tamefuina and Taylor in France, Saili and Piutau are coming to Ireland, Halais at Wasps plus the NZRU have taken SBW, Ardie Savea and Messam out of Super Rugby to play Sevens

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 09 Dec 2015, 12:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

You are not seeing the bigger picture because you think there is nothing wrong and that there are no problems with the Pro12 and the sides that participate in it.

You're reverting to type LD putting words in my mouth, where have I said there is nothing wrong?

So you now admit, that the Pro12 has issues that needs addressing and everyone needs to get together before other leagues leave us behind ?

Again you're attempting to put words in my mouth, I never said they are going to leave us behind but I have always said there are problems I just differ in my opinion of what they are and what solutions could be implemented

What would you see ad issues within the Pro 12 then ? Go on, you tell us, so I cannot put words into your mouth.

For one keeping the likes of Visser, North etc isn't the answer. You forget they were in the league already and weren't drawing huge crowds. If they were here great but they're not so the league should focus on what it does have.

There are some nice rivalries building up and every game is tougher than it used to be. This is something that should be focused on and hyped, with Sky on board I'm sure we will see this develop. The Millennium double header and the Xmas derbies should be widely hyped and the family day out experience should be a league wide overhyped marketing program.

The RFU last year started working in the US to help with the development of a US Pro League, the Pro12 missed a trick here as there is a huge market to be exploited especially with so many ex pats and people with Celtic and Italian heritage living there. With Sevens going into the Olympics the potential for the sport in other countries can be huge in the US, Japan and Russia plus the Sunwolves to Super Rugby, these are huge media markets that can bring revenue outside of the limitations of the current markets.

The Pro12 should also be working with Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Germany and Russia to develop the game there. This could lead to a second tier for the Pro12 down the line but again the growth of the game in these countries opens up markets for the Pro12 too for media and sponsors. Improved coaching and officiating here could see the better players and officials coming to the Pro12 improving standards here.

A highlights show on the BBC or Sky would also be great for the league as it would offer fans a better chance to keep up with what is going on with the league outside of their own teams.

Marty, that does not answer the question, although those things you have mentioned I do agree with, but the question I asked was, what are the issues you think the league has ? What do you think is wrong with it, because you have admitted it does have problems, I would just like to know what you think these issues/problems are.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 09 Dec 2015, 12:48 pm

Ok Marty. So would you summarise in a few sentences what you think are the problems that the PRO 12 and its constituent unions have?  Not the solutions, just the problems.

Edit - LD got in ahead of me. Same question from him.
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Post by TJ Wed 09 Dec 2015, 12:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:I have explained this numerous times

Lack of development opportunities for young players, lack of opportunity for players to get first team exposure, lack of playing places for big name players outside of the 5 countries

So for Scotland SHC, Kinghorn, Ickle Jonny etc would get less game time, no Matowalo, Nakawara, etc to pull in crowds

Why would those players get less games?

Because Laidlaw, Ritchie Gray and Maitland / visser would be playing instead Doh

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