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The Pro12 teams need to do something or else.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pro12 teams will not be able to compete with this, something needs to be doen, and done fast. There will be no decent players in the Pro12 at this rate, Rhys Priestland is earning 290K a year at bath, George North 300K at Northampton how are we supposed to compete with that ? I mean come on, Bath already had George Ford, I doubt Priestland will be a bench warmer on that money. Also news that teams are chasing the likes of Madigan, all our best players will be in France or England before long. Take a look at the money being thrown around in the Aviva:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-set-earn-staggering-10560435


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:54 pm

Then you'd expect ickle Jonny etc to move to Cardiff etc to get game time, like Ford went to Bath?

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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:02 pm

The league is too limited in its focus when trying to attract fans, right now it seems to be looking at rugby fans within the Pro12 areas. This limits the potential growth of the league.

A more joined up approach is needed too, there seems to be a more fragmented approach to marketing etc whereby its left up to individual clubs etc to build up games and sell tickets.

There needs to be a bigger pool of officials available who are off a higher standard.

The league needs to be generating more revenue.

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Post by TJ Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Then you'd expect ickle Jonny etc to move to Cardiff etc  to get game time, like Ford went to Bath?

Why would he and why would Cardiff want him?  And why would thins be any better for Glasgow, Scotland and the pro 1`2 than having Big Ritchie playing in France? Its a ridiculous idea that is a total non starter.

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Post by TJ Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:The league is too limited in its focus when trying to attract fans, right now it seems to be looking at rugby fans within the Pro12 areas. This limits the potential growth of the league.
 Not in Scotland.  Glasgow is not a rugby area.  Nor in Ireland where gates are going up overall and extending into GAA games areas? NOt in Italy where its all about expansion into football areas

marty2086 wrote:A more joined up approach is needed too, there seems to be a more fragmented approach to marketing etc whereby its left up to individual clubs etc to build up games and sell tickets.
 I agree marketing could be better in some cases.  Altho Glasgow have outgrown thier ground in just a few years tho.  Edinburgh needs bums on seats and to create a buzz around the city - the punters are there - 40 000 for a euro cup game a few years ago but 3000 is a usual gate

marty2086 wrote:There needs to be a bigger pool of officials available who are off a higher standard.

Again - where are you going to get them from?  There is not a huge number of folk waiting around for the call - and outr officials are as good as other leagues.

marty2086 wrote:The league needs to be generating more revenue.
How?  We have a better TV deal in some ways this year

I think a lot of folk are confusing Wales issues with the rest of the pro 12 and also wrongly diagnosing wales issues


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:12 pm

The original article was about the Pro 12 losing the best players hence keeping the best players in the league. Why would Cardiff want Jonny? Seriously? He's a quality player!

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Post by TJ Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original article was about the Pro 12 losing the best players hence keeping the best players in the league. Why would Cardiff want Jonny? Seriously? He's a quality player!

Yes he is - who would only be available for about half or less the pro 12 games - and obviously would not be able to cover for the cardiff players who were called up into the international squads. This is why someone like nakarawa is a good bet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:16 pm

In which case you'd follow it through that any international the clubs would be wanting to move them on. Fair enough if that's the case, don't think the French or English would be bothered when considering the top players though see North and Saints.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:23 pm

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Then you'd expect ickle Jonny etc to move to Cardiff etc  to get game time, like Ford went to Bath?

Why would he and why would Cardiff want him?  And why would thins be any better for Glasgow, Scotland and the pro 1`2 than having Big Ritchie playing in France?  Its a ridiculous idea that is a total non starter.

Here's why - in my view. I've no idea who ickle Jonny is but presume he's a Scottish player and has test caps.
So if he's a crowd puller for his team and the league, then at worst keeping him in the league, rather than going to France would be s good thing. Clearly, he would go to Cardiff or other PRO 12 team assuming they wanted him. He's not being forced to transfer to a specific club. He has a choice. A number of choices.

If all the clubs and their respective four unions had a similar approach to management of players, then it would be to Scotland's test team advantage that he was being managed right. Recent example being Sexton in France and not being managed the way his union/test coach wanted.

There's no gain without some initial pain. If the SRU wants to have a stronger domestic game, grow support, build revenues, etc then acting collaboratively with the other unions to their collective advantage should be considered.

At the most basic level, if a Scottish player leaves either Glasgow or Edinburgh, does it matter to you whether they go to Limerick, Llanelli or Leicester?
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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:25 pm

TJ wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The league is too limited in its focus when trying to attract fans, right now it seems to be looking at rugby fans within the Pro12 areas. This limits the potential growth of the league.
 Not in Scotland.  Glasgow is not a rugby area.  Nor in Ireland where gates are going up overall and extending into GAA games areas?  NOt in Italy where its all about expansion into football areas

marty2086 wrote:A more joined up approach is needed too, there seems to be a more fragmented approach to marketing etc whereby its left up to individual clubs etc to build up games and sell tickets.
 I agree marketing could be better in some cases.  Altho Glasgow have outgrown thier ground in just a few years tho.  Edinburgh needs bums on seats and to create a buzz around the city - the punters are there - 40 000 for a euro cup game a few years ago but 3000 is a usual gate

marty2086 wrote:There needs to be a bigger pool of officials available who are off a higher standard.

Again - where are you going to get them from?  There is not a huge number of folk waiting around for the call - and outr officials are as good as other leagues.

marty2086 wrote:The league needs to be generating more revenue.
How?  We have a better TV deal in some ways this year

I think a lot of folk are confusing Wales issues with the rest of the pro 12 and also wrongly diagnosing wales issues

TJ did you read my previous post?

The limitations on the growth of the league is in terms of fans in other countries, this is the same with TV revenue. I believe one of the reasons the BBC tv deal isn't worth more is because its focused on Wales, Scotland and NI. There are over 50m people in England there should be more done to build the league there, especially in areas close to Scotland and Wales. You'd get some fans who may fancy a trip to watch one of the regions or the Scottish teams, you'd also get bigger audiences on Sky which would make the league more valuable when it comes time for a new tv deal. The same goes for Italy and France, there are markets for the league there, nowhere near the amounts that the AP and Top14 get but more than the league currently get from it.

There are plenty of people who travel to cities like Edinburgh for weekends away, stag dos etc the game day experience should be one that is sold to these demographics though a more attractive brand of rugby may be needed first.

As for the officials, I think within the Pro12 work is under way to improve things but again as I said earlier there should be work outside these areas to do it to. Marius Mitrea allow with the FIR is Romanian, they should be helping with developing the officials in other countries with a view to bringing them into the Pro12.

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Post by TJ Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:39 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Then you'd expect ickle Jonny etc to move to Cardiff etc  to get game time, like Ford went to Bath?

Why would he and why would Cardiff want him?  And why would thins be any better for Glasgow, Scotland and the pro 1`2 than having Big Ritchie playing in France?  Its a ridiculous idea that is a total non starter.

Here's why - in my view. I've no idea who ickle Jonny is but presume he's a Scottish player and has test caps.
So if he's a crowd puller for his team and the league, then at worst keeping him in the league, rather than going to France would be s good thing.   Clearly, he would go to Cardiff or other PRO 12 team assuming they wanted him. He's not being forced to transfer to a specific club. He has a choice. A number of choices.

If all the clubs and their respective four unions had a similar approach to management of players, then it would be to Scotland's test team advantage that he was being managed right. Recent example being Sexton in France and not being managed the way his union/test coach wanted.

There's no gain without some initial pain.  If the SRU wants to have a stronger domestic game, grow support, build revenues, etc then acting collaboratively with the other unions to their collective advantage should be considered.  

At the most basic level, if a Scottish player leaves either Glasgow or Edinburgh, does it matter to you whether they go to Limerick, Llanelli or Leicester?

Sorry - Jonny Gray. In competition with his big brother for a second row place.

Makes no odds at allwhich other team he went to really

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:38 pm

TJ wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Then you'd expect ickle Jonny etc to move to Cardiff etc  to get game time, like Ford went to Bath?

Why would he and why would Cardiff want him?  And why would thins be any better for Glasgow, Scotland and the pro 1`2 than having Big Ritchie playing in France?  Its a ridiculous idea that is a total non starter.

Here's why - in my view. I've no idea who ickle Jonny is but presume he's a Scottish player and has test caps.
So if he's a crowd puller for his team and the league, then at worst keeping him in the league, rather than going to France would be s good thing.   Clearly, he would go to Cardiff or other PRO 12 team assuming they wanted him. He's not being forced to transfer to a specific club. He has a choice. A number of choices.

If all the clubs and their respective four unions had a similar approach to management of players, then it would be to Scotland's test team advantage that he was being managed right. Recent example being Sexton in France and not being managed the way his union/test coach wanted.

There's no gain without some initial pain.  If the SRU wants to have a stronger domestic game, grow support, build revenues, etc then acting collaboratively with the other unions to their collective advantage should be considered.  

At the most basic level, if a Scottish player leaves either Glasgow or Edinburgh, does it matter to you whether they go to Limerick, Llanelli or Leicester?

Sorry - Jonny Gray.  In competition with his big brother for a second row place.  

Makes no odds at allwhich other team he went to really

So Jonny Gray and others that have gone to other clubs in England or France, you don't see any advantage if they had moved to other PRO 12 clubs instead, and stayed within the league? No benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad?

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:43 pm

There's 3 articles about the movement and possible transfer of players within Irish rugby in The Irish Times today and what the IRFU is doing.

Here's one of them:

The IRFU want Ian Madigan to join Munster next season. That’s presuming they keep the 26-year-old in Ireland by coming close to matching lucrative offers from English and French clubs.

Madigan, who is out of contract with Leinster this summer, is awaiting a formal offer from the union’s high performance director David Nucifora after Bristol tabled €500,000 a season for the place-kicking outhalf-cum-inside centre.

Along with that deal offered by billionaire Stephen Lansdown, owner of Bristol Rugby and Bristol City FC, three other foreign clubs are seeking Madigan’s signature. Harlequins currently look the most enticing option as he would be joining an established Premiership club to work alongside Conor O’Shea (Bristol are expected to be promoted from the Championship).
“The English clubs are now in play [financially] which probably wasn’t the case even two or three years ago,” said Johnny Sexton. “I think players have a decision to make. If you want to be starting for Ireland week in week out and looked after under the Irish system, you obviously need to stay here.

“But there are other guys who need to go and get game time and are obviously not going to get that in the provinces, so you wouldn’t blame them for going abroad and getting that game time, and they might get more exposure there.”

The Irish Times can also confirm preliminary discussions have taken place with Madigan’s representative and French clubs Bordeaux-Begles and Montpellier.
Getting Madigan to sign his first national contract and join Anthony Foley’s Munster would mean Ireland’s three outhalves at the World Cup – Sexton in Leinster and Paddy Jackson in Ulster – could all regularly feature in a provincial number 10 jersey next season. Munster lost outhalf JJ Hanrahan to Northampton last summer.

The other major contracts currently being negotiated are Robbie Henshaw, Simon Zebo, Conor Murray, Cian Healy and Seán O’Brien. Henshaw is believed to be Leinster-bound, especially if Madigan went to Munster, with Ben Te’o almost certain to leave the province.

The current exchange rate between euro and sterling (£1 to €1.39) severely weakens the negotiating positions of the IRFU and the provinces, particularly when enticing or keeping foreign players or established internationals.

“It’s different for every player,” Sexton continued. “I can only speak for myself; I had two great years away and really enjoyed myself but the most important thing for me was playing for Ireland and I only realised that when I was gone.

“I wasn’t able to do that to the best of my ability in terms of coming home for Six Nations and going back [to France] for games in between and not getting that rest between Six Nations matches.”
Sexton was asked if a time would come when all Irish players who do go to England or France could expect to be called by the Ireland coach.
“I was very lucky that I was still getting picked when I was abroad but is it worth some guys going and sacrificing two years to get game time? I don’t know. That’s questions for those guys.
“The best place for an Irish international is at home. Hopefully we will retain most of those guys – hopefully all of them.”
Henshaw’s proposed move to Dublin may also indirectly see a loosening of Leinster’s grip on their three international tightheads and overflowing backrow stocks.

Tadhg Furlong is signed up for two years but Mike Ross and Marty Moore are both soon to be out of contract. Last season Moore signed a one-year extension at the same time Ross got a single-season deal despite seeking two years.

However, the expected changing of the tighthead guard has yet to happen with Ireland or Leinster due to Moore’s injury profile and an Indian summer by Ross.

One of them, probably Ross, could move to Galway should Rodney Ah You be redirected to Ulster. Ross is 36 this month but has stated his desire to continue playing next season.

Regarding the Leinster backrow, Josh van der Flier has already made an impression in his first season on a professional contract, while Dan Leavy and Dominic Ryan are also waiting in line behind Rhys Ruddock, Jack Conan, Jamie Heaslip, O’Brien and Jordi Murphy.

Leinster have also narrowed down their search for a new scrumhalf to a three-man short list. The main recruiting area is New Zealand with a view to naturalising the player through residency.

Isaac Boss and Eoin Reddan are both 35, while 22-year-old Luke McGrath has yet to dislodge the Irish internationals from Leo Cullen’s starting XV."
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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:48 pm

And the story about Ben Te'o likely to leave Leinster at season end for a more lucrative contract in England or France is covered in this extract from an Irish Independent http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/england-beckons-for-leinsters-ben-teo-as-he-puts-international-ambitions-first-34272006.html:


"Leinster will bid to keep in-demand centre Ben Te'o beyond the end of this season but the rugby league convert looks set to favour a move to England to pursue his international ambitions.

A Samoa international in the 13-man code, the back qualifies to play for England through his mother's family.

As a designated project player, Te'o will qualify to play for Ireland in November 2017. The Irish province will have to stump up in order to retain his services, however, with a host of clubs offering to increase the powerful 28-year-old's current salary if he moved to France or England. A number of NRL clubs are also keen to tempt him back to league.

His two-year contract expires in June and, with Leinster also targeting a move for Robbie Henshaw and a scrum-half from overseas, while hoping to retain their out-of-contract Ireland internationals, they may struggle to match offers from abroad.

Decisions

"I'm very happy here. I'm enjoying my time at a very, very good club that has taught me a lot," he said. "I'm still going through that process so no decisions have been made, I'm going through it with my manager and it's a big decision. So I'm weighing up a few things and should get sorted soon."
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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:51 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
So Jonny Gray and others that have gone to other clubs in England or France, you don't see any advantage if they had moved to other PRO 12 clubs instead, and stayed within the league?  No benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad?


Did Jonny Gray leave Glasgow? Headscratch

Who would add greater marketing power to the league? Guys like Roberts, North etc were in the league before and its marketing power has actually increased since they left as its the product that is the selling point

Ulster had the choice of Stuart Hogg or Louis Ludik and went with Ludik because he had no international commitments and was probably cheaper too

What benefit does a Scotsman playing in Wales, Italy or Ireland have to the Pro12?


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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:53 pm

And another article talks about the importance of keeping the players within the system by persuading them to move to another province rather than move abroad, such as the proposal that Madigan move to Munster, rather than Bath or Bordeaux-Begles.

"It was telling that, when he went public with the fact that he's assessing his options for next season and beyond, Ian Madigan said that a conversation with Joe Schmidt is high on his agenda.

The out-half looks increasingly likely to leave Leinster at the end of this season and has offers on the table from France and England, but he is open to a move within the Irish system and Munster would appear to be the preferred destination for the IRFU.

"You'd be naïve to rule it out," he said of staying within the system at another province two weeks ago. So it will come as no surprise, then, that the union consider Thomond Park the best place for the man who was second choice out-half for Ireland during the World Cup despite rarely starting in the No10 shirt at Leinster.

The return of Johnny Sexton on a four-year deal appears to have made Madigan's mind up on whether to stay or go. Now, it is performance director David Nucifora's job to convince him that remaining in Ireland is as good for his career as it would be for Schmidt's options. Part of the Australian's remit is to ensure that playing resources available to play for the national team are as evenly spread as possible in order to ensure that the national team have a ready supply of quality players playing games.

The scenario that sees Leinster supply 20 players to the World Cup squad is seen as being far from ideal, as is the sight of a regular member of Schmidt's match-day squads, like Jordi Murphy, being left out of Leinster's match-day squads for the biggest games of the season because of the amount of back-rows available at the RDS.

The answer, according to Lansdowne Road, is to move players between the provinces but the hardest part of the equation is often convincing the players to move.

"Obviously there has to be succession plans done," Anthony Foley said. "The national one is massively important., I'm sure the IRFU want all the players that they see as Irish internationals playing regular rugby.

"If they can't get it in their own province, they probably need to look at it in another province. That's the reality."
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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:53 pm

Pot Hale wrote:"Leinster will bid to keep in-demand centre Ben Te'o beyond the end of this season but the rugby league convert looks set to favour a move to England to pursue his international ambitions.

A Samoa international in the 13-man code, the back qualifies to play for England through his mother's family.

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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:01 pm

Pot Hale, your proving our point for us. Yes the IRFU want to keep those players in Ireland for the sake of the national team but that doesn't mean the league naturally benefits if its expanded to the Pro1 as a whole.

Madigan, Ross and Moore are being considered for interprovincial moves because there are too many players in certain positions. So I fail to see how making it an even more crowded marketplace helps?

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:08 pm

How can Moore be considered? He's first choice TH now for Leinster and from next year Ireland. There is no chance of him moving to another province.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:30 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
So Jonny Gray and others that have gone to other clubs in England or France, you don't see any advantage if they had moved to other PRO 12 clubs instead, and stayed within the league?  No benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad?


Did Jonny Gray leave Glasgow?  Headscratch

Who would add greater marketing power to the league? Guys like Roberts, North etc were in the league before and its marketing power has actually increased since they left as its the product that is the selling point

Ulster had the choice of Stuart Hogg or Louis Ludik and went with Ludik because he had no international commitments and was probably cheaper too

What benefit does a Scotsman playing in Wales, Italy or Ireland have to the Pro12?


Sorry - I thought you were saying that he was leaving or had left. Welsh rugby is the poorer for players of the calibre of Roberts and North leaving the regions and the league. Its marketing power has not increased because they have left. A number of PRO 12 CEOs have all stated that increasing the profile of the league, including the Welsh clubs bringing back their players, would be a good driver for increasing its commercial value even further.

Ulster choosing Hogg over Ludik happened under existing circumstances and rules. I'm arguing that if the circumstances and rules changed, then a different outcome might arise. As you know, the provinces operate under foreign signing limits (and project players) - that still leaves scope for bringing other players in, or moving them elsewhere.

You answer a question with a question. I asked you if you see any advantage if Scottish players that have left for Eng/Fra had moved instead to other PRO 12 clubs and stayed within the league?  I clarified that by asking if you do not see any benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad if they were to do that?

You ask what benefit Scottish players such as Jonny Gray, Grant, Cusack, Strauss, Blair, Pyrgos, Bennett, Seymour or say Hogg have to the PRO 12? A lot I would argue. If they left the team would be the poorer for it, as would the PRO 12. So, if there's another layer put in place that could serve as a secondary marketplace for players, before they consider moving to England and France, I think this would be beneficial - with both carrot and stick.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:Pot Hale, your proving our point for us. Yes the IRFU want to keep those players in Ireland for the sake of the national team but that doesn't mean the league naturally benefits if its expanded to the Pro1 as a whole.

Madigan, Ross and Moore are being considered for interprovincial moves because there are too many players in certain positions. So I fail to see how making it an even more crowded marketplace helps?

Because, right now, the structure and system is set up to keep players in country. That makes sense. There are too many players in one province is the issue, particularly in Leinster.

I'm saying an additional level be introduced so that if they can't be kept within the relevant union system, then the next level should be moving to another PRO 12 club, so they stay within the league.

Currently players leave their union system and go elsewhere. It happens across all 12 clubs each season. Why not have a central clearing house in place where PRO12 clubs have first pick or choice before they exit to other markets? If they're not picked, they're not picked. Sitting back on collective hands and saying nothing can be done about the league being drained of high-quality players it is not going to achieve anything.
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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:40 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Sorry - I thought you were saying that he was leaving or had left.   Welsh rugby is the poorer for players of the calibre of Roberts and North leaving the regions and the league.  Its marketing power has not increased because they have left.   A number of PRO 12 CEOs have all stated that increasing the profile of the league, including the Welsh clubs bringing back their players, would be a good driver for increasing its commercial value even further.  

Ulster choosing Hogg over Ludik happened under existing circumstances and rules.   I'm arguing that if the circumstances and rules changed, then a different outcome might arise.   As you know, the provinces operate under foreign signing limits (and project players) - that still leaves scope for bringing other players in, or moving them elsewhere.

You answer a question with a question.  I asked you if you see any advantage if Scottish players that have left for Eng/Fra had moved instead to other PRO 12 clubs and stayed within the league?  I clarified that by asking if you do not see any benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad if they were to do that?

You ask what benefit Scottish players such as Jonny Gray, Grant, Cusack, Strauss, Blair, Pyrgos, Bennett, Seymour or say Hogg  have to the PRO 12?  A lot I would argue.  If they left the team would be the poorer for it, as would the PRO 12.  So, if there's another layer put in place that could serve as a secondary marketplace for players, before they consider moving to England and France, I think this would be beneficial - with both carrot and stick.


You keep saying the league would be poorer for it, are you saying these players aren't being considered by Pro12 clubs outside of Scotland or Wales when they are leaving?

The marketplace exists since you have guys like Barclay at Scarlets so your whole point makes no sense, what you want is a false marketplace. You talk about incentives but if the Unions are going to pay for the players to stay in their own country they are hardly going to pay someone to take them are they?

Each club has their own needs, if a player from another Pro12 country fits that profile they will go for them but instead they are mostly finding them within their own borders or maybe even the SH because they better fit what they are looking for in terms of profile, cost or ability

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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pot Hale, your proving our point for us. Yes the IRFU want to keep those players in Ireland for the sake of the national team but that doesn't mean the league naturally benefits if its expanded to the Pro1 as a whole.

Madigan, Ross and Moore are being considered for interprovincial moves because there are too many players in certain positions. So I fail to see how making it an even more crowded marketplace helps?

Because, right now, the structure and system is set up to keep players in country.  That makes sense.   There are too many players in one province is the issue, particularly in Leinster.  

I'm saying an additional level be introduced so that if they can't be kept within the relevant union system, then the next level should be moving to another PRO 12 club, so they stay within the league.

Currently players leave their union system and go elsewhere.   It happens across all 12 clubs each season.   Why not have a central clearing house in place where PRO12 clubs have first pick or choice before they exit to other markets?   If they're not picked, they're not picked.   Sitting back on collective hands and saying nothing can be done about the league being drained of high-quality players it is not going to achieve anything.

Under your plan if Ulster had went with their original plan to sign Dwayne Peel they would never have got Pienaar, who do you think does more for the profile of the league?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:52 pm

Bearing in mind just how rarely Jamie Roberts featured in the Pro12/Celtic League I am surprised anyone thinks he would be adding value to the competition.

In the five seasons before he left for Racing he made 29 starts in that competition, compared with 22 starts in Europe and 44 starts for Wales.

This seems fairly common for high profile Welsh players. How can the regions ever thrive and Pro12 grow if the team's stars barely feature?

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Post by marty2086 Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:53 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Sorry - I thought you were saying that he was leaving or had left.   Welsh rugby is the poorer for players of the calibre of Roberts and North leaving the regions and the league.  Its marketing power has not increased because they have left.   A number of PRO 12 CEOs have all stated that increasing the profile of the league, including the Welsh clubs bringing back their players, would be a good driver for increasing its commercial value even further.  

Bringing back certain players will help, the Norths, Roberts etc are known to casual fans and some non fans but there few players with the same profile

Pot Hale wrote:Ulster choosing Hogg over Ludik happened under existing circumstances and rules.   I'm arguing that if the circumstances and rules changed, then a different outcome might arise.   As you know, the provinces operate under foreign signing limits (and project players) - that still leaves scope for bringing other players in, or moving them elsewhere.

Unless the SRU were going to pay part of his wages it wouldn't have changed things, like I said one of the reasons Ludik came over Hogg was his availability during international windows

Pot Hale wrote:You answer a question with a question.  I asked you if you see any advantage if Scottish players that have left for Eng/Fra had moved instead to other PRO 12 clubs and stayed within the league?  I clarified that by asking if you do not see any benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad if they were to do that?

The advantage would be selling a few extra tickets to a handful of games, the return to the old stomping ground can be a good sell but as I've said there are only a handful of players who reach beyond the casual fans


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Post by Pot Hale Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Sorry - I thought you were saying that he was leaving or had left.   Welsh rugby is the poorer for players of the calibre of Roberts and North leaving the regions and the league.  Its marketing power has not increased because they have left.   A number of PRO 12 CEOs have all stated that increasing the profile of the league, including the Welsh clubs bringing back their players, would be a good driver for increasing its commercial value even further.  

Bringing back certain players will help, the Norths, Roberts etc are known to casual fans and some non fans but there few players with the same profile

Pot Hale wrote:Ulster choosing Hogg over Ludik happened under existing circumstances and rules.   I'm arguing that if the circumstances and rules changed, then a different outcome might arise.   As you know, the provinces operate under foreign signing limits (and project players) - that still leaves scope for bringing other players in, or moving them elsewhere.


Unless the SRU were going to pay part of his wages it wouldn't have changed things, like I said one of the reasons Ludik came over Hogg was his availability during international windows

Pot Hale wrote:You answer a question with a question.  I asked you if you see any advantage if Scottish players that have left for Eng/Fra had moved instead to other PRO 12 clubs and stayed within the league?  I clarified that by asking if you do not see any benefit to the league, no benefit to the marketing power of the league, no benefit to the management of the players, no benefit to availability to test squad if they were to do that?

The advantage would be selling a few extra tickets to a handful of games, the return to the old stomping ground can be a good sell but as I've said there are only a handful of players who reach beyond the casual fans


I take it you're an Ulster fan?
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Post by profitius Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Bearing in mind just how rarely Jamie Roberts featured in the Pro12/Celtic League I am surprised anyone thinks he would be adding value to the competition.

In the five seasons before he left for Racing he made 29 starts in that competition, compared with 22 starts in Europe and 44 starts for Wales.

This seems fairly common for high profile Welsh players. How can the regions ever thrive and Pro12 grow if the team's stars barely feature?

+1

Its amazing how Roberts was always out with niggly injuries but they cleared up just in time for the 6 nations. I see Sam Warburton was out the other week against Connacht. A broken fingernail I think.. Whistle
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Post by wayne Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:35 pm

I know it is the Fail reporting this, by all accounts Leigh Halfpenny has turned down the chance of joining the Wasps, because of the likelihood of being unable to have full access to Welsh matches and all training sessions. It is being reported there that he is probably coming to one of the Regions, as I said earlier if this had been set in stone a few years ago, some of these high profile moves would have been thwarted.

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Post by Guest Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:05 pm

Ooh, ooh, will it be the Dragons?! 1/2p to the Dragons! What're the chances?!

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Post by wayne Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Griff wrote:Ooh, ooh, will it be the Dragons?! 1/2p to the Dragons! What're the chances?!
25% Griff, 25%

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Post by munkian Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:30 am

Unless he switches to 10 or prop Im not that interested
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:27 am

munkian wrote:Unless he switches to 10 or prop Im not that interested

Laugh

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Post by marty2086 Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:29 am

Ulster 38 - 0 Toulouse
Connacht 25 -10 Newcastle
Cardiff 37 - 27 Montpellier

The Pro12 really are struggling to compete! Whistle

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