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Foreign legion encamps at No.8

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The Great Aukster
Exiledinborders
lostinwales
HammerofThunor
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:21 am

Interesting article here from the rugby paper, and it shows just how much of a joke the residency rule is, interestingly though, with the biggest player pool in the world England seem to be the worst for exploiting this nonsense rule:-

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/peter-jackson/24662/peter-jackson-column-foreign-legion-encamps-at-no-8/

Something needs to be seriously looked at as this is getting beyond the joke. England have capped 16 different players from South Africa and New Zealand in the past ten years, Ireland have capped 8 players from the same two countries, Scotland 7 players and France 6, Wales have been the least reliant on capping players from New Zealand and South Africa with only 4 capped players from the two countries.

This is all without considering time serving players currently serving their time in the Pro12 and Avivia, this is all what is wrong with rugby at the moment, and it really puts things into perspective.

For what ever reason, Australian, Fijian, Somoan, and Tongan born players are not on that list, so I bet that the amount of players "poached" will go up ten fold if they were.

The amount of young players being tempted by the riches of the NH is getting ridiculous now, this needs to stop. Something needs to be done about it. If the clubs want to use these players, then fine, but the pathway to the international team needs to be different.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by yappysnap Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:36 am

What a pile of crap

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:37 am

So everyone is at it but you want to try and put it on england. How ironic Wales were after Morgan as well!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:38 am

yappysnap wrote:What a pile of crap

Why ? Anything constructive to add ?

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Post by Welly Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:38 am

Lol at england being the worst we went through a period. We had the lowest Forign born players in the home nations during the RWC.

We have had 2 capped players in the last 4 years from SA and NZ. (Barritt and Botha) add other countries and you only add Roko. IMO.

Lol @ including Bendy, Hartley both are more english than there birth place playing academy rugby in England, I don't buy into the argument that people should play for place of birth esp if they have been in there adopted country since before they played academy rugby.


Last edited by Welly on Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So everyone is at it but you want to try and put it on england. How ironic Wales were after Morgan as well!

Why am I trying to put it on England ?

If anything the proof is in the pudding. The facts are there. England are the worst offenders. Although we are ALL guilty of it, and the whole issue stinks of shoite. It needs changing.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:42 am

Welly wrote:Lol @ including Bendy, Hartley both are more english than there birth place playing academy rugby in, I don't buy into the argument that people should play for place of birth esp if they have been in there adopted country since before they played academy rugby.

This I agree with, it's the ones that come up here for a cheap cap and quick money is what I want to see stopped. I know there are loads of time serving players in the two Scottish teams in the Pro12. Time serving should be at least 7 years if you ask me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So everyone is at it but you want to try and put it on england. How ironic Wales were after Morgan as well!

Why am I trying to put it on England ?

If anything the proof is in the pudding. The facts are there. England are the worst offenders. Although we are ALL guilty of it, and the whole issue stinks of shoite. It needs changing.

Rubbish.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish.

More constructive additions to the forum. Rolling Eyes

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:45 am

Because the original post was really well balanced.

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Post by whocares Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:46 am

Not sure Fritz Lee can qualify for France as he got capped by NZ 7s team (maybe that doesn't mean anything as it's a different code though).
The main reason we get foreigners in the 1st place in the French team is because they happen to have been playing in French clubs for a while (some even went pro over here). Still not ideal but at least we do not bring them on purpose Wink (as if clubs would do a service to the national team!).

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:47 am

Utter rubbish doesn't warrant constructive additions any more than LD / Chunky (same person?) deserve to win the 606v2 poster of the year award.

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Post by BamBam Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:48 am

The irony of citing Abendanon and Hartley as horrible imports while the same article lauds Wales for being the only side with a homegrown number 8 (Taulupe Faletau) is clearly lost on some

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because the original post was really well balanced.

I read the original post, but when I scrolled down to the bottom and it gave a breakdown of the players and who capped them I was very surprised, I did not expect England to be such perennial offenders. I thought it would have been Scotland, but to my surprise they were one of the least offenders in this whole debacle.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:53 am

Pete330v2 wrote:Utter rubbish doesn't warrant constructive additions any more than LD / Chunky (same person?) deserve to win the 606v2 poster of the year award.

I can assure you I am not the same poster as chunky. I have never been banned from this forum either, I do not insult, I do not threaten and I do not make accusations like you have just done. If you feel the current residency rule is fine, then just say so, but please stop with the bitchy stuff. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:54 am

Offenders? To add balance to this then Wales are on of the worst offenders here I;m sure you would agree? How many English born are there of there abouts for Wales now? Charteris, Ball, Lydiate, JD, Cuthbert. Was North as well?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:55 am

Francis.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Utter rubbish doesn't warrant constructive additions any more than LD / Chunky (same person?) deserve to win the 606v2 poster of the year award.

I can assure you I am not the same poster as chunky. I have never been banned from this forum either, I do not insult, I do not threaten and I do not make accusations like you have just done. If you feel the current residency rule is fine, then just say so, but please stop with the bitchy stuff. OK

This isn't the residency rule.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:56 am

BamBam wrote:The irony of citing Abendanon and Hartley as horrible imports while the same article lauds Wales for being the only side with a homegrown number 8 (Taulupe Faletau) is clearly lost on some

Yes I see the irony in this, but in fairness Taulupe Faletau came to Wales as a very young child, his father came here to play rugby and they have stayed here ever since. I think the same applies to Abendanon and Hartley as well doesn't it ? Although Hartley might have come up here as a young adult, but he was nurtured through the English system wasn't he ?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:56 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Because the original post was really well balanced.

I read the original post, but when I scrolled down to the bottom and it gave a breakdown of the players and who capped them I was very surprised, I did not expect England to be such perennial offenders. I thought it would have been Scotland, but to my surprise they were one of the least offenders in this whole debacle.

I've been telling you this for a while. The perception is that the Scottish teams are constantly parachuting in SH players to serve their 3 years and play for Scotland, but I've recently been posting the NSQ tally for Edinburgh and Glasgow vs their opponents and we frequently have the more SQ players than the opposition have players qualified for their own country. As an example, which reinforces the point in the OP, London Irish had close to double the number of NEQ players in their match day 23 as Edinburgh had NSQ. We also had less NSQ players in our 23 than the Dragons had NWQ players when we recently thumped them.

My only criticism of the OP is that it only focuses on SH "imports", and not on domestic poaching, which tends to paint Wales (and Scotland) in a slightly less virtuous light.

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Post by Welly Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:58 am

I do like how it is only judged numbers on NZ and SA born players.

Not inculding any other country to make England Worse.

Hell according to those stats on birth Heaslip isn't irish.

Hartley came here when he was 16.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:58 am

LordDowlais wrote:I did not expect England to be such perennial offenders.

I guess you are not interested that the vast majority of players capped by England on that list actually qualified via parentage not residency?

Also that at least one of those named on the list has not actually been capped?

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Post by marty2086 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:59 am

So the article praises Wales for having Faletau when he qualifies under the same rule as the rest, irony at its best

There are plenty on the list who fall under the same category as Faletau or have grown up in a different country to parents from the country they represent

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Offenders? To add balance to this then Wales are on of the worst offenders here I;m sure you would agree? How many English born are there of there abouts for Wales now? Charteris, Ball, Lydiate, JD, Cuthbert. Was North as well?

North was born in England but his mother is Welsh and they moved to Wales when North was something like a one year old, maybe younger. Cuthbert came through the Welsh system, and yes he was born in England, JD and Lydiate were the same circumstances as North, so it is unfair to call them time serving players, Charteris and Ball, I do not know much about their lineage unless I google them. i will do it later and come back to you.

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Post by BamBam Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:The irony of citing Abendanon and Hartley as horrible imports while the same article lauds Wales for being the only side with a homegrown number 8 (Taulupe Faletau) is clearly lost on some

Yes I see the irony in this, but in fairness Taulupe Faletau came to Wales as a very young child, his father came here to play rugby and they have stayed here ever since. I think the same applies to Abendanon and Hartley as well doesn't it ? Although Hartley might have come up here as a young adult, but he was nurtured through the English system wasn't he ?

Hartley's mum is English.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:01 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Offenders? To add balance to this then Wales are on of the worst offenders here I;m sure you would agree? How many English born are there of there abouts for Wales now? Charteris, Ball, Lydiate, JD, Cuthbert. Was North as well?

North was born in England but his mother is Welsh and they moved to Wales when North was something like a one year old, maybe younger. Cuthbert came through the Welsh system, and yes he was born in England, JD and Lydiate were the same circumstances as North, so it is unfair to call them time serving players, Charteris and Ball, I do not know much about their lineage unless I google them. i will do it later and come back to you.

If you're including Hartley then you're also saying something needs to be done about stopping all those players named. Otherwise you're just a hypocrite and not really bothered by the point of this at all.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:02 am

And I'm not calling them time serving players. You seem to be misunderstanding the list in the article. If you want to go back and understand it that's fine.

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Post by Welly Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:05 am

England last 4 years foreign born capped players
M.Vunipola (Born NZ) Bristol Academy
D.Hartley (Born NZ) Worcester Academy
A.Corbisiero (Born USA) London Irish Academy
B.Vunipola (Born Aus) Wasps Academy
M.Botha *
T.Johnson (Born Germany)
M.Kvesic (Born Germany) Worcester Academy (Thanks for the reminder LT)
T.Waldrom *
L.Dickson (Born Germany) Falcons Academy
B.Barritt *
M. Tuilagi (Born Samoa) Leicester Tigers Acadmey
S.Rokoduguni*
M. Yarde (Born Saint Lucia) London Irish Academy

Might missed some but out of 12 foreign born players to get capped for England rugby in the last 4 years only 4 where not a product from a PRL Academy (Or Tom Johnson).


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Post by LondonTiger Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:09 am

Matt Kvesic born in Germany too.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:12 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And I'm not calling them time serving players. You seem to be misunderstanding the list in the article. If you want to go back and understand it that's fine.

Look I am merely just going by what the article said, sorry if you have not understood me, but it does not necessarily mean I agree with it. What I am strongly against however is this three year residency nonsense. If a person has lived in the country for most of his life, and came through the system of said country then for me there can be no argument, it's when players come up here in there mid twenties when they have not even been looked at by their own country and get capped that bothers me.

Just to balance it out, Graham Henry made a mockery of this rule when he coached Wales, and it was one of the worst offending periods of this whole shoite storm and nonsense.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:16 am

3 year residency I absolutely agree it's a stupid rule. But when you're quoting an article where the list isn't made up of people qualifying on that rule you really should point that out don't you think? You've gotten in a twist with a couple of different points here.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:24 am

This whole "project player" issue needs addressing, you should not be allowed to flutter the pound signs to young SH players with the promises of fame and fortune just to increase your player pool, this money should be spent at home, on players within the setup of your own country.

I understand French clubs have academies in places like Fiji and Samoa, any good ones come over to France to play and get time serving status, how on this earth is this allowed ? If the clubs want these players then fine, but something then needs to be done to prevent the easy route to playing for that clubs national side.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:26 am

Which is again slightly different to the residency. Would you mind adjusting the original post to reflect this?

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Post by BamBam Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:27 am

Or given its now been unanimously picked apart by posters of all nationalities, just delete the crock of Poopie

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which is again slightly different to the residency. Would you mind adjusting the original post to reflect this?

What would you say the difference between residency and time serving is then ? I call it the same thing, being in said country for three years to qualify.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:29 am

BamBam wrote:Or given its now been unanimously picked apart by posters of all nationalities, just delete the crock of Poopie

Or you could just not read or post on the topic. OK

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:30 am

Apologies to repeat myself, but many of the players you quoted (and majority who were capped by england) did NOT qualify via residency.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:32 am

Yeah please correct your use of stats LD and make it a bit clearer what you want to highlight.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:38 am

I want to highlight the exploitation of non qualified players being seduced by the money from the NH unions and the cheap caps they can pick up at the same time.

Why would somebody come to the British Isles to play rugby at a young age ? It's not for the weather. It's obviously because they have been pimped by their agents, or scouts have seen them and fluttered pound signs in front of them and made them promises of grandeur.

Why is nothing ever said or nothing ever done about this ? It makes a mockery of the international game.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:39 am

LondonTiger wrote:Apologies to repeat myself, but many of the players you quoted (and majority who were capped by england) did NOT qualify via residency.

I have not quoted one single player. Also, if they were not capped on residency they must have an English parent ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:40 am

Which is absolutely fine but that's not really what you set out here and you've misused some stats which is a bit misleading. Would you mind just changing it as you have a fair point and it won't really get discussed to the level it should with the inaccuracies included.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which is absolutely fine but that's not really what you set out here and you've misused some stats which is a bit misleading. Would you mind just changing it as you have a fair point and it won't really get discussed to the level it should with the inaccuracies included.

What inaccuracies ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:44 am

If you meant to discuss young players tempted to come over to Britain and Ireland to qualify for the countries after 3 years then the article you have and the stats of how many players have done this are incorrect. Just reword it and it will get responses to what you meant to say.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you meant to discuss young players tempted to come over to Britain and Ireland to qualify for the countries after 3 years then the article you have and the stats of how many players have done this are incorrect. Just reword it and it will get responses to what you meant to say.

I have added an extra sentence on the bottom for you. Will this do ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:55 am

No it won't as you are still seemingly suggesting that England have capped 16 players through the residency rule, and if the point of this is young players being tempted over with money to qualify through the 3 year rule this is completely inaccurate still. I assume the other stats for the other countries are also incorrect.

If your actual point was 'I want to highlight the exploitation of non qualified players being seduced by the money from the NH unions and the cheap caps they can pick up at the same time' this article isn't doing it. You're still mixing different things.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:No it won't as you are still seemingly suggesting that England have capped 16 players through the residency rule, and if the point of this is young players being tempted over with money to qualify through the 3 year rule this is completely inaccurate still. I assume the other stats for the other countries are also incorrect.

If your actual point was 'I want to highlight the exploitation of non qualified players being seduced by the money from the NH unions and the cheap caps they can pick up at the same time' this article isn't doing it. You're still mixing different things.

Well just forget it then. You just want to argue, I cannot be bothered with you anymore. Just out of interest though, on that list, how many are NOT time serving, and how many do actually have an English parent ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Dec 2015, 11:59 am

I really think you should delete the article if you're not prepared to use actual stats that are relevant.

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Foreign legion encamps at No.8 Empty Re: Foreign legion encamps at No.8

Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 12:02 pm

Welly wrote:England last 4 years foreign born capped players
M.Vunipola (Born NZ) Bristol Academy
D.Hartley (Born NZ) Worcester Academy
A.Corbisiero (Born USA) London Irish Academy
B.Vunipola (Born Aus) Wasps Academy
M.Botha *
T.Johnson (Born Germany)
M.Kvesic (Born Germany) Worcester Academy (Thanks for the reminder LT)
T.Waldrom *
L.Dickson (Born Germany) Falcons Academy
B.Barritt *
M. Tuilagi (Born Samoa) Leicester Tigers Acadmey
S.Rokoduguni*
M. Yarde (Born Saint Lucia) London Irish Academy

Might missed some but out of 12 foreign born players to get capped for England rugby in the last 4 years only 4 where not a product from a PRL Academy (Or Tom Johnson).

How many of those players did not come to Britain for personal rugby reasons. I know the Vanipola's moved to Wales with their father as he was playing rugby in Wales, but the rest I know nothing, except perhaps Tuilagi might have moved here for the same reasons as the Vanipola's.

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Foreign legion encamps at No.8 Empty Re: Foreign legion encamps at No.8

Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Dec 2015, 12:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really think you should delete the article if you're not prepared to use actual stats that are relevant.

Or you could simply chose to not read it. Who do you think you are ? You are not in charge of this forum, neither are you a MOD, so who are you to decide what people can and cant put on here.

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Foreign legion encamps at No.8 Empty Re: Foreign legion encamps at No.8

Post by LondonTiger Mon 14 Dec 2015, 12:06 pm


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Foreign legion encamps at No.8 Empty Re: Foreign legion encamps at No.8

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