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Foreign legion encamps at No.8

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The Great Aukster
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LordDowlais
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Post by LordDowlais Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article here from the rugby paper, and it shows just how much of a joke the residency rule is, interestingly though, with the biggest player pool in the world England seem to be the worst for exploiting this nonsense rule:-

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/peter-jackson/24662/peter-jackson-column-foreign-legion-encamps-at-no-8/

Something needs to be seriously looked at as this is getting beyond the joke. England have capped 16 different players from South Africa and New Zealand in the past ten years, Ireland have capped 8 players from the same two countries, Scotland 7 players and France 6, Wales have been the least reliant on capping players from New Zealand and South Africa with only 4 capped players from the two countries.

This is all without considering time serving players currently serving their time in the Pro12 and Avivia, this is all what is wrong with rugby at the moment, and it really puts things into perspective.

For what ever reason, Australian, Fijian, Somoan, and Tongan born players are not on that list, so I bet that the amount of players "poached" will go up ten fold if they were.

The amount of young players being tempted by the riches of the NH is getting ridiculous now, this needs to stop. Something needs to be done about it. If the clubs want to use these players, then fine, but the pathway to the international team needs to be different.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by lostinwales Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:33 am

LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I do, people have moved around for Centuries.

No one forces them to sign on the dotted line, so what's the problem?

I am not telling you what you should do or think, that is your prerogative but I would suggest you read this article, it might make you think again:-


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/fiji/11854929/Rugby-uncovered-Despicable-abuse-of-young-Pacific-talent-is-huge-stain-on-game.html

If that is the article I think it is we have debated it on this forum before. And it is a sad situation. It also has nothing to do with your original post. Not that you seem to respond to anything I type which suggests I am on your foe list.

The thing is (on the off chance that you do see this) that a large number, if not all who have responded to this thread have taken your comments to be an attack on England selection policy in particular as you seem to have highlighted our situation. When the stats upon which the original article are such a mess in the first place its no surprise that you get the response you have.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:33 am

mid_gen wrote:
Whatever you feel about the rights and wrongs of international eligibility, closing the three-year residency rule would be seen as a disaster by most Pacific Islands players

From the article.

I don't see how the case studies cited are in anyway unique to overseas players. Shady goings on from dodgy clubs, clubs going bust. Any player in that scenario is going to be screwed, import or not.


Unfortunately this is very true. But it seems that the poorer Pacific Island players are the one's that take the hardest of falls.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:34 am

But no one makes them sign.

If they are happy living overseas as a Pro sportsman and they happen to qualify through the World Rugby residency rules to play for that Country I really don't see an issue with that if they choose to do so.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:38 am

lostinwales wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I do, people have moved around for Centuries.

No one forces them to sign on the dotted line, so what's the problem?

I am not telling you what you should do or think, that is your prerogative but I would suggest you read this article, it might make you think again:-


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/fiji/11854929/Rugby-uncovered-Despicable-abuse-of-young-Pacific-talent-is-huge-stain-on-game.html

If that is the article I think it is we have debated it on this forum before. And it is a sad situation. It also has nothing to do with your original post. Not that you seem to respond to anything I type which suggests I am on your foe list.

The thing is (on the off chance that you do see this) that a large number, if not all who have responded to this thread have taken your comments to be an attack on England selection policy in particular as you seem to have highlighted our situation. When the stats upon which the original article are such a mess in the first place its no surprise that you get the response you have.

I do not have a foe list, I am not that type of person. If I cannot respond to your posts, it's probably because I cannot be bothered to argue with you. I was simply reading the rugby paper this morning and that article interested me, so I thought I would debate it on here, then the usual bull and spite came out and started attacking.

Not once did I take this as an attack on England, I was surprised that their number was so high, and was interested to find out why, yet people like no 71/2 decided to drag the debate through the mud with his nonsense.

Surely it must be a concern though that so many non qualified players end up finding their way into our systems whilst doing nothing wrong. France though are a different beast and they take poaching to a whole new level.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:41 am

TightHEAD wrote:But no one makes them sign.

If they are happy living overseas as a Pro sportsman and they happen to qualify through the World Rugby residency rules to play for that Country I really don't see an issue with that if they choose to do so.

It's not the players that are doing anything wrong, it's the system that is wrong. Players from the pacific islands are being lured by the smell of ££££££££'s. They even quit their own allegiance for it and the promises of grandeur, again that is up to them, but for me, I do not like it.

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I do, people have moved around for Centuries.

No one forces them to sign on the dotted line, so what's the problem?

I am not telling you what you should do or think, that is your prerogative but I would suggest you read this article, it might make you think again:-


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/fiji/11854929/Rugby-uncovered-Despicable-abuse-of-young-Pacific-talent-is-huge-stain-on-game.html

Are you aware that the main examples given for bad behaviour are agents involved with Australia rugby league clubs? Very little on the actual exploitation of these players. Just giving them a chance and it not working out (for rugby union teams at least). The real dodgy behaviour (incorrect visas, one way flights, etc) was specifically against League.

There is nothing in that article that suggests that union clubs are behaving badly, certainly none outside of France.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:But no one makes them sign.

If they are happy living overseas as a Pro sportsman and they happen to qualify through the World Rugby residency rules to play for that Country I really don't see an issue with that if they choose to do so.

It's not the players that are doing anything wrong, it's the system that is wrong. Players from the pacific islands are being lured by the smell of ££££££££'s. They even quit their own allegiance for it and the promises of grandeur, again that is up to them, but for me, I do not like it.


On the flip side, had Fiji offered me £££££££s to play Pro rugby I'd been off too.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:50 am

TightHEAD wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:But no one makes them sign.

If they are happy living overseas as a Pro sportsman and they happen to qualify through the World Rugby residency rules to play for that Country I really don't see an issue with that if they choose to do so.

It's not the players that are doing anything wrong, it's the system that is wrong. Players from the pacific islands are being lured by the smell of ££££££££'s. They even quit their own allegiance for it and the promises of grandeur, again that is up to them, but for me, I do not like it.


On the flip side, had Fiji offered me £££££££s to play Pro rugby I'd been off too.

Would you represent Fiji at international level as well ? Or would you still keep your allegiances with England ?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:52 am

HammerofThunor wrote:There is nothing in that article that suggests that union clubs are behaving badly, certainly none outside of France.

I agree, and I have not said any different either. I have said all through this that France are on another level when it comes to poaching, the rest of us just flaunt the residency rules.

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Post by lostinwales Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:52 am

In an ideal world the island economies would be strong enough to keep the players healthy, wealthy and happy at home.

It is not an ideal world, but we can and do offer many pacific islanders a lot of money, plus access to top level training and support to help develop the fantastic talent many of these guys seem to have. It is great for them and their nations if, having come over to the bigger nations and become much better players, they choose to represent the countries they came from. But when you consider the problems that their own unions often seem to have with corruption and poor management its not always a surprise if they don't.

You can't fix things by trying to turn the clock back.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:58 am

Fiji all the way, why not?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:22 am

LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I do, people have moved around for Centuries.

No one forces them to sign on the dotted line, so what's the problem?

I am not telling you what you should do or think, that is your prerogative but I would suggest you read this article, it might make you think again:-


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/fiji/11854929/Rugby-uncovered-Despicable-abuse-of-young-Pacific-talent-is-huge-stain-on-game.html

If that is the article I think it is we have debated it on this forum before. And it is a sad situation. It also has nothing to do with your original post. Not that you seem to respond to anything I type which suggests I am on your foe list.

The thing is (on the off chance that you do see this) that a large number, if not all who have responded to this thread have taken your comments to be an attack on England selection policy in particular as you seem to have highlighted our situation. When the stats upon which the original article are such a mess in the first place its no surprise that you get the response you have.

I do not have a foe list, I am not that type of person. If I cannot respond to your posts, it's probably because I cannot be bothered to argue with you. I was simply reading the rugby paper this morning and that article interested me, so I thought I would debate it on here, then the usual bull and spite came out and started attacking.

Not once did I take this as an attack on England, I was surprised that their number was so high, and was interested to find out why, yet people like no 71/2 decided to drag the debate through the mud with his nonsense.

Surely it must be a concern though that so many non qualified players end up finding their way into our systems whilst doing nothing wrong. France though are a different beast and they take poaching to a whole new level.

Its not nonsense to say your post is misleading.

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Post by The Great Aukster Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:34 am

marty2086 wrote:Aukster, majority rule would still disqualify someone who comes at 12/13 and gets called up at 20/21

Whatever system that is in place will be imperfect but the current system is probably the worst solution.

Exactly - they wouldn't get called up at 20/21 because they would have to wait until they were 24 if they came over as a 12 year old - that's not too much of a penalty but still enough to discourage junior scholarships draining talent out of small countries. It also allows their country of birth a chance to attract them early, so is far more likely to benefit those nations that really need help in hanging on to their players.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:07 am

whocares wrote:Not sure Fritz Lee can qualify for France as he got capped by NZ 7s team (maybe that doesn't mean anything as it's a different code though).
The main reason we get foreigners in the 1st place in the  French team is because they happen to have been playing in French clubs for a while (some even went pro over here). Still not ideal but at least we do not bring them on purpose Wink (as if clubs would do a service to the national team!).

So what's Montpellier's coach up to then?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:10 am

BamBam wrote:The irony of citing Abendanon and Hartley as horrible imports while the same article lauds Wales for being the only side with a homegrown number 8 (Taulupe Faletau) is clearly lost on some

Well...not ironic really, seeing as he is homegrown.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:40 am

Teams like Japan and Samoa are reliant on their 'Kiwi players' (either born there or played rugby for most of their life in NZ schools and academies). I'm not sure what constitutes as a tier 1 country in rugby, but I think Japan and Samoa are outside of that tier. Therefore perhaps world rugby could begin addressing the issue by placing restrictions on tier 1 sides taking advantage of the rules. I don't like to see the 6 Nations nick players from countries like Fiji, etc. when they have ample resources (IE No. of players and money). In time, when the lower tiered nations have caught up with world rugby's elite the world rugby board can change the qualification rules.

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Post by BamBam Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:The irony of citing Abendanon and Hartley as horrible imports while the same article lauds Wales for being the only side with a homegrown number 8 (Taulupe Faletau) is clearly lost on some

Well...not ironic really, seeing as he is homegrown.

As set out earlier in the thread, he's as homegrown as most of the English players on that list!

I wasn't criticising Faletau's eligibility btw

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:13 am

BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:The irony of citing Abendanon and Hartley as horrible imports while the same article lauds Wales for being the only side with a homegrown number 8 (Taulupe Faletau) is clearly lost on some

Well...not ironic really, seeing as he is homegrown.

As set out earlier in the thread, he's as homegrown as most of the English players on that list!

I wasn't criticising Faletau's eligibility btw

Nor was I criticising any England players' eligibility. Also I don't think anyone can criticise England for doing what the article states when all teams do it.

Faletau isn't Welsh he's Tongan, however you can't refer to him as anything other than a Welsh rugby player - he's our product so to speak. Him and the Vunipola's started out at New Panteg btw Wink.

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