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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

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Post by Chunky Norwich Sun 20 Dec 2015, 4:39 pm

Really interesting. The momentum is gathering and the Union run rugby model is finally being outed as old hat

http://www.independent.ie/sport/tony-ward-we-need-backers-with-deep-pockets-to-close-gap-on-bigspending-elite-34300329.html

"We may profess to hate what the English and French have done but to borrow again from the great Willie Duggan "it's time to s**t or get off the pot"."

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Post by toml Sun 20 Dec 2015, 4:41 pm

It depends what you want from your rugby... Nation or Club to be successful.

Look what the big spending in the Top 14 has done for the French National side

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 20 Dec 2015, 7:25 pm

I don't think deep pockets are a necessity. Leinster have a good side but haven't recruited well at times. Zane Kirchner? Not really money well spent when an electric PI winger could have come in instead. No new scrum half been developed or brought in.

Munster kept selecting a reliable but uninspiring Keatley to the point where their creative prodigy opted to leave. No alternative in place.

Ulster and Connacht seem to be doing all right.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 20 Dec 2015, 7:31 pm

What a difference a year makes. You can't stay entirely still but there seems to be a lot of panic based on what may just be a bad year combined with some poor mistakes in the managements of these teams.

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Dec 2015, 8:09 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Really interesting. The momentum is gathering and the Union run rugby model is finally being outed as old hat

http://www.independent.ie/sport/tony-ward-we-need-backers-with-deep-pockets-to-close-gap-on-bigspending-elite-34300329.html

"We may profess to hate what the English and French have done but to borrow again from the great Willie Duggan "it's time to s**t or get off the pot"."

In one sense it's old news. IRFU have already came out and said that private investment will be needed, and needed because of wage inflation driven up by France. We have already seen this with Sexton being backed by private investment, and it won't stop there.

The Provinces do need to make the big signings but, more importantly, we need to invest in the right coaching staff. When Anscombe was fired Ulster were left with a temporary head coach, and we struggled. We seem to have turned a corner now that Les Kiss is on board, and we are getting results. Big results. The thing about that is we haven't needed to bring in the big signings to get those results. It should also be noted that we got those results with a few key players out injured. However, for us to really press for silverware we need the big signings in key places. For Ulster, that's the backrow. We have signed Piutau (15) but, assuming that he still comes to Ulster, the signing of a top backrow player was/should be the priority. We will wait and see what happens with regards that signing, over the next few months.
It should also be remembered that we are limited to 4 NIQ and one project player. So having buckets loads of money doesn't mean we get to buy loads of NIQ players. It simply means we can afford to fill those 4 NIQ, and one project, with the best available in certain positions. Certain positions is another restriction.

So, we don't need buckets loads of cash. We do need enough to buy within our limits. We do need to be very careful in selecting the right coaching staff.

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Post by marty2086 Sun 20 Dec 2015, 8:26 pm

The funny thing about it all is the Regions have private backers but needed the union to enable them to retain and resign big name Welsh players

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Dec 2015, 8:56 pm

marty2086 wrote:The funny thing about it all is the Regions have private backers but needed the union to enable them to retain and resign big name Welsh players

Depends what you mean by 'backers'? Owners, yes. But the Dragons has no-one ploughing money in and signing big name players. Just putting enough of their own money in to keep the business afloat. If there were no owners then there would no regions as the WRU could not afford (at inception, and probably not now) to start up and maintain 4 pro sides from scratch. The Blues have a backer though, as in a rich sugar daddy willing to splash the cash.

Not sure what this has to do with the regions though?! We're in the same place, roughly, as we've always been. This is more to do with the sharp turn in fortunes of the the Irish provinces. Although I think you're just being defensive/counter attacking.


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Post by marty2086 Sun 20 Dec 2015, 9:47 pm

Griff, my point is that even with private money the regions still needed the WRU to prop them up and to compete in the marketplace, with private money they struggled to compete.

Toulon once needed Boudjellals money but now with success, the injection of cash from tv deals and an improved business model set in an town with less than 200k people and a stadium of less than 16k they are apparently self sufficient and make enough to pay for their superstars.

The problem with private backers is, what if the well dries up? If you look at Southampton, their billionaire owner died and his daughter took over and decided to turn of the cash flow.

Its a short term approach but a long term one is needed, Toulon changed their business model beyond rugby to include coffee shops and clothing brands so they can generate more cash. Leinster have players opening bars and restaurants and Ulster have Tommy Bowe starting his own clothing line. Theres nothing to say the provinces can't do the same and evolve their business model further.

The article actually doesn't support the oracle that is Chunky

It is up to the various CEOs in consultation with Philip Browne and the IRFU to put the type of commercial package in place in order to compete in attracting the quality of global superstars we once did but now Top 14 and English Premiership-bound.


So the article supports keeping the union and evolving the approach but theres nothing like reinterpreting someone elses words to suit your own argument.

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Post by Sin é Sun 20 Dec 2015, 11:23 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I don't think deep pockets are a necessity. Leinster have a good side but haven't recruited well at times. Zane Kirchner? Not really money well spent when an electric PI winger could have come in instead. No new scrum half been developed or brought in.

Munster kept selecting a reliable but uninspiring Keatley to the point where their creative prodigy opted to leave. No alternative in place.

Ulster and Connacht seem to be doing all right.

Tyler Bleyendaal (former under 20 baby black captain and world player of the year nominee the year Julian Savea won it).
Tyler is injured.
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Post by Sin é Sun 20 Dec 2015, 11:30 pm

It doesn't matter how much money the provinces have, they will never be able to compete with the unrestricted recruitment of Premiership & French clubs as an Irish Province would never be allowed field 8 Kiwi/Aussie/SH players that started for Leicester Tigers today. The IRFU have only 4 teams they can select from, the RFU have 12 so they can get away with having so many foreigners in their league.

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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:27 am

Sin é wrote:It doesn't matter how much money the provinces have, they will never be able to compete with the unrestricted recruitment of Premiership & French clubs as an Irish Province would never be allowed field 8 Kiwi/Aussie/SH players that started for Leicester Tigers today. The IRFU have only 4 teams they can select from, the RFU have 12 so they  can get away with having so many foreigners in their league.


They would if they had Irish grannies. Out of interest, how many of that Leicester XV would fail the equivalent of the IRFU criteria?

Oh, and if money is insignificant compared to quotas, how are Leinster and Munster successes in recent years explained?

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Post by profitius Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:58 am

There isn't a shortage of money in Irish rugby. There's going to be a €3.2 increase next season between the provinces and if push came to shove, the IRFU could afford more.


The Aviva stadium is nearly paid off already from what I understand.
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Post by Pot Hale Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:25 am

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Sin é wrote:It doesn't matter how much money the provinces have, they will never be able to compete with the unrestricted recruitment of Premiership & French clubs as an Irish Province would never be allowed field 8 Kiwi/Aussie/SH players that started for Leicester Tigers today. The IRFU have only 4 teams they can select from, the RFU have 12 so they  can get away with having so many foreigners in their league.


They would if they had Irish grannies. Out of interest, how many of that Leicester XV would fail the equivalent of the IRFU criteria?

Oh, and if money is insignificant compared to quotas, how are Leinster and Munster successes in recent years explained?

What recent successes have Leinster and Munster had?

The Irish provinces had it real easy until the qualification was changed so that they now have to play their best players in the league all the time and can't afford to rest them. As the French and Engish teams had been saying for years it was a huge unfair advantage.   And they were right as it shows in their results in the European cup in the last few years.

They've also had their foreign quotas cut. And have lost a good crop of decent irish players to retirement.

You couldn't assess just Leicester - you'd have to apply the only one Not Eligible player in each position rule to all Premiership clubs.
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Post by rodders Mon 21 Dec 2015, 9:20 am

I guess Tony Ward hasn't been watching Ulster or Connacht recently.

Munster and Leinster are suffering from having very poor and inexperienced coaches - there's more than enough quality in their playing panels.

Disgraceful performances from both this weekend.
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 21 Dec 2015, 9:44 am

Pot Hale wrote:
The Irish provinces had it real easy until the qualification was changed so that they now have to play their best players in the league all the time and can't afford to rest them. As the French and Engish teams had been saying for years it was a huge unfair advantage.   And they were right as it shows in their results in the European cup in the last few years.

so - Irish players are too knackered, with not enough energy to win in Europe, but enough to win back-to-back Six Nations.

2/10

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Post by rodders Mon 21 Dec 2015, 9:55 am

Sin é wrote:It doesn't matter how much money the provinces have, they will never be able to compete with the unrestricted recruitment of Premiership & French clubs as an Irish Province would never be allowed field 8 Kiwi/Aussie/SH players that started for Leicester Tigers today. The IRFU have only 4 teams they can select from, the RFU have 12 so they  can get away with having so many foreigners in their league.


Exactly.
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Post by VinceWLB Mon 21 Dec 2015, 9:59 am

rodders wrote:I guess Tony Ward hasn't been watching Ulster or Connacht recently.

Munster and Leinster are suffering from having very poor and inexperienced coaches - there's more than enough quality in their playing panels.

Disgraceful performances from both this weekend.

You can have the best coaches in the world, you aren't going to win anything with Keatley at flyhalf.

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Post by rodders Mon 21 Dec 2015, 10:20 am

VinceWLB wrote:
rodders wrote:I guess Tony Ward hasn't been watching Ulster or Connacht recently.

Munster and Leinster are suffering from having very poor and inexperienced coaches - there's more than enough quality in their playing panels.

Disgraceful performances from both this weekend.

You can have the best coaches in the world, you aren't going to win anything with Keatley at flyhalf.

If you had the best coaches in the world Keatley wouldn't be fly half....that said its not Keatley's fault Munster are so dependent on him to get points.

Take Saili out and their back play is awful and their forwards not much better.
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Post by offload Mon 21 Dec 2015, 10:31 am

It's about leadership. Gets the recruitment, selection and coaching right before worrying about how much money others have got. Foley is out of his depth, that's a leadership problem. Keatley simply isn't good enough, which has been clear for a while, that's a leadership problem.

No point throwing money at Munster and Leinster until the leadership is sorted.
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Post by lostinwales Mon 21 Dec 2015, 10:44 am

All true. One of the best performing English clubs is Exeter. They don't have lots of money, but they do have excellent leadership and a core of good home grown players

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Post by Exiledinborders Mon 21 Dec 2015, 10:56 am

I am not sure deep pocketed owners are the answer in Ireland or anywhere else. Ultimately it is unsustainable. I would feel happier being a fan of a profitable club such as Leicester than one relying on the goodwill of an owner(s) such as Bath and Saracens. Football gives us examples of what happens when the owners lose interest.

As to the question of the success of nation versus club/province/region what is needed is a league that is self financing and produces lots of players. England have just about got that right. The only movement I would make is to limit the number of games played by each player. On occasion England players have looked tired. Such a change would give opportunities for young players.

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Post by the-goon Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:07 am

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Sin é wrote:It doesn't matter how much money the provinces have, they will never be able to compete with the unrestricted recruitment of Premiership & French clubs as an Irish Province would never be allowed field 8 Kiwi/Aussie/SH players that started for Leicester Tigers today. The IRFU have only 4 teams they can select from, the RFU have 12 so they  can get away with having so many foreigners in their league.


They would if they had Irish grannies. Out of interest, how many of that Leicester XV would fail the equivalent of the IRFU criteria?

Oh, and if money is insignificant compared to quotas, how are Leinster and Munster successes in recent years explained?

Leinster and Munster's success in 2006-2012 period was down to having the best teams in Europe, simple as that. I think they were allowed 5/6 NIE players, they were mainly top quality players. But the main reasons were that their homegrown players were by and large better than the players they played against, and their coaches more innovative. The Ireland national team underperformed massively during that era.

They also dominated the Celtic League as well, so it wasn't down to "resting" their top players for Europe.

Leinster and Munster have and had rubbish coaches, and it shows.

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Post by rodders Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:08 am

offload wrote:No point throwing money at Munster and Leinster until the leadership is sorted.  

Its not about money. There are restrictions on non Irish qualified players that need be adhered to so no amount of money will make a difference in terms of competing with Toulon, Racing, Saracens etc when it comes to recruitment.

They Irish system works - it has been very successful and is sustainable. Munster and Leinster don't have fit for purpose coaching teams, it really is that simple.

Leadership is a big factor but with no decent playing systems and plan there is nothing to lead.

Munster aren't just losing to big money sides, they are getting beat by teams like Connacht who have much less resources.
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Post by marty2086 Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:10 am

Pot Hale wrote:What recent successes have Leinster and Munster had?

The Irish provinces had it real easy until the qualification was changed so that they now have to play their best players in the league all the time and can't afford to rest them. As the French and Engish teams had been saying for years it was a huge unfair advantage.   And they were right as it shows in their results in the European cup in the last few years.

They've also had their foreign quotas cut. And have lost a good crop of decent irish players to retirement.

You couldn't assess just Leicester - you'd have to apply the only one Not Eligible player in each position rule to all Premiership clubs.  

Leinster, Munster and Ulster have lost one NIQ spot since 2011-12 and Leinster essentially have the same number in their squad from when they last won the HC. Since then they have lost BOD, D'Arcy, Cullen, McLaughlin and Jennings, plus they also had Brad Thorn that season thats a lot of quality and experience lost. Munster in the same time have lost DOC, POC, ROG, Mick O'Driscoll and Felix Jones.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Leinster are playing their best team every league game because this season and last they haven't so thats not affected their European performances, sure wasn't Matt O'Connor complaining last season he couldn't play some of his players every game in the league?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:27 am

the-goon wrote:They also dominated the Celtic League as well, so it wasn't down to "resting" their top players for Europe.

Since the Celtic league/Pro12 was formed Irish sides have won 7 times Welsh Sides 5 times and a Scottish side once. Yeah that is really a period of domination from the Irish sides. From 2006 to 2012 as you were mentioning, Irish sides have won three titles and Welsh sides have won three titles, so the Irish sides have never dominated the league.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/champions.php#YOOdOZYMdo3q8vSX.97

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Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:38 am

Excellent. So the Pro12 has been competitive all along.....

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:39 am

Munchkin wrote:Excellent. So the Pro12 has been competitive all along.....

Competitive between us, like it or not, the standard of rugby in our league is inferior to other leagues, because of the lack of quality within it.

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Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:41 am

So you admit that it has been competitive.

Yes, the quality has been so poor we have more than held our own in the Euro cup, and the 6N's. Shocking...

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:50 am

Munchkin wrote:So you admit that it has been competitive.

Yes, the quality has been so poor we have more than held our own in the Euro cup, and the 6N's. Shocking...

You held your own in Europe because you kept your best players for Europe, also Ireland have not really been lighting the world up internationally in the last decade. As soon as Ireland got out of their groups in the last two world cups they were thumped out of the tournament, then as soon as you win a grand slam in the 6N you sack the coach who won it. Since the turn of the millennium Ireland have won the 6N three times, so I would not brag about anything if I were you.

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Post by rodders Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:58 am

LordDowlais wrote:
the-goon wrote:They also dominated the Celtic League as well, so it wasn't down to "resting" their top players for Europe.

Since the Celtic league/Pro12 was formed Irish sides have won 7 times Welsh Sides 5 times and a Scottish side once. Yeah that is really a period of domination from the Irish sides. From 2006 to 2012 as you were mentioning, Irish sides have won three titles and Welsh sides have won three titles, so the Irish sides have never dominated the league.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/champions.php#YOOdOZYMdo3q8vSX.97

Take out the big spending Ospreys Galacticos and then see how competitive the Welsh side have been....
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Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 11:59 am

We held our own while still finishing at the top of Pro12, and winning it on occasion. No, we didn't keep our best players for Europe. That's a myth invented by people such as yourself.

We have done fairly well over the last decade, in 6N's. We have won the title three times. The same as France. England have won it once. Wales have won it four times. So Pro12 nations have won seven from eleven.

As for your wee rant. Grow up.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:03 pm

Munchkin wrote:As for your wee rant. Grow up.

First off, what wee rant ? I was just responding to your sarcasm.

Munchkin wrote:No, we didn't keep our best players for Europe. That's a myth invented by people such as yourself.

Another lie from you. The likes of BOD, ROG, POC, John Heyes ect never played in the league away from home during the last decade, so please stop lying all the time.


rodders wrote:Take out the big spending Ospreys Galacticos and then see how competitive the Welsh side have been....

Very odd thing to say, the fact is the Welsh sides have been competitive, whether it has been big spending Ospreys or not.

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Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:As for your wee rant. Grow up.

First off, what wee rant ? I was just responding to your sarcasm.

Munchkin wrote:No, we didn't keep our best players for Europe. That's a myth invented by people such as yourself.

Another lie from you. The likes of BOD, ROG, POC, John Heyes ect never played in the league away from home during the last decade, so please stop lying all the time.


rodders wrote:Take out the big spending Ospreys Galacticos and then see how competitive the Welsh side have been....

Very odd thing to say, the fact is the Welsh sides have been competitive, whether it has been big spending Ospreys or not.

It's an obvious rant. When your arguments weak you resort to these little rants, and then moan about being abused. What sarcasm? I wasn't being sarcastic. It certainly wasn't meant that way.

We have been through this many times about BOD and the rest, but it still doesn't sink in with you. I wasn't lying. Players can't play every game, as much as you would like them to, and as much as you don't mind players being flogged and broken.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:10 pm

Munchkin wrote:We have been through this many times about BOD and the rest, but it still doesn't sink in with you. I wasn't lying. Players can't play every game, as much as you would like them to, and as much as you don't mind players being flogged and broken.

Firstly did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in Europe ?

Secondly, did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in the Celtic league/Pro12 ?

Answer these questions honestly, without bending and twisting and we can have a serious debate from there on in.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:Excellent. So the Pro12 has been competitive all along.....

Also, this was your sarcastic post.

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Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:We have been through this many times about BOD and the rest, but it still doesn't sink in with you. I wasn't lying. Players can't play every game, as much as you would like them to, and as much as you don't mind players being flogged and broken.

Firstly did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in Europe ?

Secondly, did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in the  Celtic league/Pro12 ?

Answer these questions honestly, without bending and twisting and we can have a serious debate from there on in.

Yes, there's plenty play home and away games in both competitions. You're going to isolate certain individuals, such as BOD, not playing many away games in Wales, and apply the broad brush. It's a weak argument, LD, and weak for several reasons. Players such as BOD did need managed carefully, otherwise their playing career would have been much shorter than they were.
You moan about BOD not playing so much in Wales, and don't seem to give a stuff about the fact that his playing career was on the line in 2011 when he had spinal fusion surgery. Sure just wheel him out to play Dragons. Stuff his health, as long as we get to see his face at our grounds.

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:31 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:We have been through this many times about BOD and the rest, but it still doesn't sink in with you. I wasn't lying. Players can't play every game, as much as you would like them to, and as much as you don't mind players being flogged and broken.

Firstly did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in Europe ?

Secondly, did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in the  Celtic league/Pro12 ?

Answer these questions honestly, without bending and twisting and we can have a serious debate from there on in.

Yes, there's plenty play home and away games in both competitions. You're going to isolate certain individuals, such as BOD, not playing many away games in Wales, and apply the broad brush. It's a weak argument, LD, and weak for several reasons. Players such as BOD did need managed carefully, otherwise their playing career would have been much shorter than they were.
You moan about BOD not playing so much in Wales, and don't seem to give a stuff about the fact that his playing career was on the line in 2011 when he had spinal fusion surgery. Sure just wheel him out to play Dragons. Stuff his health, as long as we get to see his face at our grounds.

I asked for honest answers without any bending and twisting, yet you cannot do it can you ?

It's not just BOD. It's D'Arcy, ROG, POC, John Hayes, Kearney, it's all of them, be honest and admit it, none of the centrally contracted players play in away fixtures in the Pro12.

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by profitius Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
the-goon wrote:They also dominated the Celtic League as well, so it wasn't down to "resting" their top players for Europe.

Since the Celtic league/Pro12 was formed Irish sides have won 7 times Welsh Sides 5 times and a Scottish side once. Yeah that is really a period of domination from the Irish sides. From 2006 to 2012 as you were mentioning, Irish sides have won three titles and Welsh sides have won three titles, so the Irish sides have never dominated the league.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/champions.php#YOOdOZYMdo3q8vSX.97


Heres the list of team who finished top since 2007. Up until Glasgow, it has been Irish sides topping it 7 in a row.


2014/15 - Glasgow
2013/14 - Leinster
2012/13 - Ulster  
2011/12 - Leinster
2010/11 - Munster
2009/10 - Leinster
2008/09  - Munster
2007/08 - Leinster
2006/07  Ospreys
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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 12:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:We have been through this many times about BOD and the rest, but it still doesn't sink in with you. I wasn't lying. Players can't play every game, as much as you would like them to, and as much as you don't mind players being flogged and broken.

Firstly did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in Europe ?

Secondly, did/does all the centrally contracted players play both home AND away in the  Celtic league/Pro12 ?

Answer these questions honestly, without bending and twisting and we can have a serious debate from there on in.

Yes, there's plenty play home and away games in both competitions. You're going to isolate certain individuals, such as BOD, not playing many away games in Wales, and apply the broad brush. It's a weak argument, LD, and weak for several reasons. Players such as BOD did need managed carefully, otherwise their playing career would have been much shorter than they were.
You moan about BOD not playing so much in Wales, and don't seem to give a stuff about the fact that his playing career was on the line in 2011 when he had spinal fusion surgery. Sure just wheel him out to play Dragons. Stuff his health, as long as we get to see his face at our grounds.

I asked for honest answers without any bending and twisting, yet you cannot do it can you ?

It's not just BOD. It's D'Arcy, ROG, POC, John Hayes, Kearney, it's all of them, be honest and admit it, none of the centrally contracted players play in away fixtures in the Pro12.

I was being honest. Why the need to accuse me of lying?

Just a quick glance at some of last seasons away games:

Jared Payne, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best, Connor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy, Jamie Heaslip.

That enough for you?


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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by The Great Aukster Mon 21 Dec 2015, 1:49 pm

Ward is saying that Irish rugby needs financial backing, yet most on here seem to think the money is available. Who's right?

If the four provinces were able to afford the best 20 players in the world and spread them over the four provinces, would that make any difference when Toulon are buying the next best 40 to have all to themselves?

In short the premise of the article is wrong because the amount of money has little bearing on success when the amount of players a province can recruit is restricted. Those teams with the biggest numbers of quality players will win trophies.

It is ironic that the English and French considered it unfair for a small nation like Ireland to 'rest' some players, when they had many times the number to choose from, and considered it 'fair' to flog their own players into injury and under-performance.

Perhaps Ward is right though, in that Ireland simply have to produce more players. That will require much more investment in the lower levels of rugby with a professional All Ireland League. Such a league would need say ten ring-fenced franchises to allow long standing business relationships to be built-up over time, and regional backers to help foot the bill.

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:23 pm

I wish Scottish rugby was in the apparently sorry state that Irish rugby finds itself in!!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:40 pm

Munchkin wrote:Jared Payne, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best, Connor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy, Jamie Heaslip.

You see you are quite full of it. For a start Paul O'Connell has been injured all season so how the feck could he have played an away game ?

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Jared Payne, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best, Connor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy, Jamie Heaslip.

You see you are quite full of it. For a start Paul O'Connell has been injured all season so how the feck could he have played an away game ?


You're really not very bright, LD.

Even though you completely failed to comprehend my previous post, well done on ignoring the rest of the names I supplied.

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:47 pm

Also, Leinster have only been to Wales once so far this season, and None of those players were in the squad:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34539659

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Jared Payne, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best, Connor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy, Jamie Heaslip.

You see you are quite full of it. For a start Paul O'Connell has been injured all season so how the feck could he have played an away game ?


You're really not very bright, LD.


Even though you completely failed to comprehend my previous post, well done on ignoring the rest of the names I supplied.

Yep reverting to type and using insults when being proved wrong. That's Munckin for you.

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, Leinster have only been to Wales once so far this season, and None of those players were in the squad:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34539659

Laugh

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Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Jared Payne, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best, Connor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy, Jamie Heaslip.

You see you are quite full of it. For a start Paul O'Connell has been injured all season so how the feck could he have played an away game ?


You're really not very bright, LD.


Even though you completely failed to comprehend my previous post, well done on ignoring the rest of the names I supplied.

Yep reverting to type and using insults when being proved wrong. That's Munckin for you.

Here numpty. Since you need it pointed out:


"I was being honest. Why the need to accuse me of lying?

Just a quick glance at some of last seasons away games:

Jared Payne, Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Rory Best, Connor Murray, Paul O'Connell, Rob Kearney, Gordon Darcy, Jamie Heaslip.

That enough for you?"

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by LordDowlais Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:54 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, Leinster have only been to Wales once so far this season, and None of those players were in the squad:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34539659

Laugh

What is so funny ? Leinster have been over to Wales once this season and this was the team they sent:-

Isa Nacewa; Fergus McFadden, Colm O'Shea, Noel Reid, Garry Ringrose, Ross Byrne, Isaac Boss; Michael Bent, Bryan Byrne, Marty Moore; Ross Molony, Tom Denton; Dominic Ryan, Josh van der Flier, Dan Leavy.

Replacements: James Tracy, Peter Dooley, Jamie Hagan, Tadhg Beirne, Tony Ryan, Luke McGrath, Cathal Marsh, Mick McGrath.


I cannot see any of Jamie Heaslip, Rob Kearney, Cain Healey, in that squad.

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Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap Empty Re: Irish rugby needs big backers with deep pockets to close gap

Post by Guest Mon 21 Dec 2015, 2:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, Leinster have only been to Wales once so far this season, and None of those players were in the squad:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34539659

Laugh

What is so funny ? Leinster have been over to Wales once this season and this was the team they sent:-

Isa Nacewa; Fergus McFadden, Colm O'Shea, Noel Reid, Garry Ringrose, Ross Byrne, Isaac Boss; Michael Bent, Bryan Byrne, Marty Moore; Ross Molony, Tom Denton; Dominic Ryan, Josh van der Flier, Dan Leavy.

Replacements: James Tracy, Peter Dooley, Jamie Hagan, Tadhg Beirne, Tony Ryan, Luke McGrath, Cathal Marsh, Mick McGrath.


I cannot see any of Jamie Heaslip, Rob Kearney, Cain Healey, in that squad.

Look, get someone else to spell it out for you. I've better things to be getting on with.

Laters.

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Post by GoodinTightSpaces Mon 21 Dec 2015, 3:11 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, Leinster have only been to Wales once so far this season, and None of those players were in the squad:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/34539659

Laugh

What is so funny ? Leinster have been over to Wales once this season and this was the team they sent:-

Isa Nacewa; Fergus McFadden, Colm O'Shea, Noel Reid, Garry Ringrose, Ross Byrne, Isaac Boss; Michael Bent, Bryan Byrne, Marty Moore; Ross Molony, Tom Denton; Dominic Ryan, Josh van der Flier, Dan Leavy.

Replacements: James Tracy, Peter Dooley, Jamie Hagan, Tadhg Beirne, Tony Ryan, Luke McGrath, Cathal Marsh, Mick McGrath.


I cannot see any of Jamie Heaslip, Rob Kearney, Cain Healey, in that squad.

Look, get someone else to spell it out for you. I've better things to be getting on with.

Laters.

All those international players were in Wales at the time, playing for Ireland, in the World Cup.

To be fair LD Irish teams do tend rest player, generally Key international players for away pro 12 games but not to the extent where there are not international players playing. It has never really been an issue either over the past number of years because each of the Irish teams less connacht would have always qualified for Europe under the new rules.

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