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Change of anthem for England debate is being talked about again.

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Post by Shifty Sat 02 Jan 2016, 12:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35204504

MPs are to debate and vote on whether England should adopt an official national anthem.
The UK anthem, God Save the Queen, is currently used during some sporting events but Chesterfield MP Toby Perkins believes England should have its own.
He intends to bring his English National Anthem Bill to Parliament on 13 January.
If MPs voted in favour, a public consultation would be held to choose a song.
The Labour MP said: "I have nothing against God Save the Queen but that is the national anthem of the United Kingdom.
"England is a component part of the UK but it competes as a country in its own right and I think a song that celebrated England rather than Britain would be more appropriate."

Mr Perkins said he was proud to be both English and British but they were "not the same thing".
His proposed new law would bestow a responsibility on the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to hold a consultation.
All relevant sporting bodies would be instructed to use the chosen anthem prior to international sporting contests, at medal awarding ceremonies and whenever else a national anthem was required for teams or athletes representing England.
God Save the Queen would continue to be used for teams or individuals representing Great Britain or the UK.

"I hope that Scots and Welsh will also recognise this not as an anti-union move, but a pro-union one," said Mr Perkins.
"By recognising that England is a component part of the union but a different entity, I think this strengthens both our Englishness but also reminds us all of what the union is."
Liberal Democrat MP Greg Mulholland raised the same issue in Parliament in 2010.
Prime Minister David Cameron has said that Jerusalem would be his choice for England's national anthem, according to the ConservativeHome website.

Jerusalem was chosen as the anthem to be played for English athletes competing at the 2010 Commonwealth Games in Delhi following a month-long public vote.
Voters were able to choose from three songs, and Jerusalem beat both the UK national anthem and the anthem previously used for English athletes competing at Commonwealth Games.
Jerusalem drew 52.5% of the votes
Land of Hope and Glory was voted for by 32.5%
God Save The Queen was voted for by 12%
Survey by YouGov of 1,896 entrants
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 04 Jan 2016, 5:51 pm

The link to the story is worthwhile just to see Katherine Jenkins looking absolutely splendid in the headline picture. heart Drool
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Jan 2016, 6:04 pm

Irelands call is rousing but not a anthem about the country.

Just says Ireland a few times, that they're together standing tall.

Land of hope and glory would suit me just fine.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Jan 2016, 6:06 pm

And im probably one of very few, but I don't get all the vibe about the Welsh anthem.

But I guess its all each to their own.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 04 Jan 2016, 6:20 pm

Anthems are about the meaning you give them.

La Marseillaise is a song of the French Revolution and is exhorting the French to beat up their own aristocracy, which is hardly ideal for a national anthem. But it seems to work.

It always has seemed a bit odd to be the only home nation singing GSTQ, and it's not the most stirring song... so if we were to change it, my preference would be Jerusalem. I'm not religious in the slightest, but it's a great tune, stirring words and already has some meaning for rugby fans.

It's either that, or Sweet Chariot.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Mon 04 Jan 2016, 6:31 pm

Even as a Welshman I like Jerusalem and have sung it in many rugby clubs the country over and whilst serving overseas.
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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 04 Jan 2016, 7:55 pm

An English anthem is long overdue. My view is it should be rousing and make people proud of England no matter what their faith is. It should not be religious nor deferential to the Monarchy. It should be about its people, history and values. Trouble is I haven't got a scooby do about which song meets that criteria.

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Post by thomh Mon 04 Jan 2016, 10:10 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Only one choice for me:

I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

I heard my country calling, away across the sea,
Across the waves and waters, she calls and calls to me.
Her sword is girded at her side, her helmet on her head,[6]
And around her feet are lying the dying and the dead;
I hear the noise of battle, the thunder of her guns;
I haste to thee, my mother, a son among thy sons.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

Never fails to move me whenever I hear it, which is not often enough.

A great piece of music of course but there's two problems with it in this context:

1. I'm not sure it's really popular enough to slot in as national anthem; and
2. The tune has already been ripped off and used for "the world in union", which was done to death during the RWC and now really gets on my (and I assume I'm not alone here) nerves.

Having said land of hope and glory would be great further up the thread it's just occurred to me that it's actually British rather than English in just the same way as GSTQ (albeit not an official anthem). Personally though the dreariness of GSTQ is a bigger reason to change than the fact that it's actually a shared anthem.

On a separate note I do love the idea that William Blake literally meant to suggest that we should recreate the place Jerusalem in England, as if early 1800s England was such a worldly-wise place that people would have had the faintest idea what that meant.


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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand Mon 04 Jan 2016, 10:38 pm

The problem is that most of the suggestions are pretty slow: Not the sort of thing to stir the blood. That's the real reason the French and Italian anthems are so good.

I vote for We Will Rock You. Or maybe Heroes, by Bowie. From being a national embarrassment, or anthem would become the envy of the world.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand Mon 04 Jan 2016, 10:40 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:The problem is that most of the suggestions are pretty slow: Not the sort of thing to stir the blood. That's the real reason the French and Italian anthems are so good.

I vote for We Will Rock You. Or maybe Heroes, by Bowie. From being a national embarrassment, or anthem would become the envy of the world.

Although in hindsight We Will Rock You might make all our sporting events look like an episode of Gladiators. Awooga!

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Post by thomh Mon 04 Jan 2016, 11:23 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:The problem is that most of the suggestions are pretty slow: Not the sort of thing to stir the blood. That's the real reason the French and Italian anthems are so good.

I vote for We Will Rock You. Or maybe Heroes, by Bowie. From being a national embarrassment, or anthem would become the envy of the world.

I'm not sure I agree with that first bit. The welsh national anthem is slow but very moving. Ditto for Flower of Scotland. Land of Hope and Glory is more upbeat than either of those.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 05 Jan 2016, 11:42 am

Swing low would be great for the rugby, especially as most other countries despise it.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 12:07 pm

Land of Hope and Glory is a British song though, also I would not call it an anthem, I would call it more of a chant.

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Post by Cyril Tue 05 Jan 2016, 12:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:selling point of England

It's about selling it to yourself, telling yourself what you are representing when singing it. Why do you think the Welsh anthem is sung with so much passion ? It is because of words like this(translated into English for you):-

The land of my fathers is dear to me,
Country of poets and singers, celebrities indeed:
Its warring defenders, so gallant and brave,
For freedom their life's blood they gave

Land!, Land!, Pledge-ful I am to my country!
While seas secure
This land so pure,
O may our old language endure.

That's just the first verse and chorus, pretty rousing words don't you think, although it is not exact word for word it is the same meanings ?
Celebrities! This bit must be about Gav in The Bachelor Laugh

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 12:57 pm

Cyril wrote:Celebrities! This bit must be about Gav in The Bachelor

It's just an interpretation, it could mean famous people, or well known people, or people who have contributed to the world. Celebrities is a more modern view of it.OK  

So please lets not WUM, like you were saying on another thread about another member on our forum. Wink

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Jan 2016, 3:26 pm

Ah, just like Jerusalem doesn't mean Jerusalem.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 3:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah, just like Jerusalem doesn't mean Jerusalem.

heh ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Jan 2016, 3:44 pm

It's not literal.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 3:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not literal.

But you are not translating it from one language to another are you ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Jan 2016, 3:55 pm

No. But that obviously doesn't matter.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. But that obviously doesn't matter.

ok then.....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:15 pm

lol. Or we can go on thinking it really is building a brick by brick replica. Just saying context in either needs to be taken.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:lol. Or we can go on thinking it really is building a brick by brick replica. Just saying context in either needs to be taken.

No I took it as Jerusalem being a beautiful place, steeped in history, and the song wants it replicated in England, when for me England is already all that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:23 pm

Ah, you're as right as Cyril thinking the Welsh anthem is about Gavin then.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah, you're as right as Cyril thinking the Welsh anthem is about Gavin then.

What are you on about ?

Forget it, I should have learned my lesson last time you just tried to cause mischief.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:33 pm

I'm merely saying that building Jerusalem is about using that as a metaphor for builing heaven in England on Jesus' 2nd coming. It's not about building a replica of the place Jerusalem in England because it's a nice place to look at. The mischief in misunderstanding that is not to be directed at myself.

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Post by TJ Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:35 pm

Jerusalem for me - its stirring and it is about all of England not just the south and the pretty bits.

You guys do realise that " Flower of Scotland" was written in the 60s by a folk duo as a scottish anthem? Its not a traditional song at all.

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Post by TJ Tue 05 Jan 2016, 4:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm merely saying that building Jerusalem is about using that as a metaphor for builing heaven in England on Jesus' 2nd coming. It's not about building a replica of the place Jerusalem in England because it's a nice place to look at. The mischief in misunderstanding that is not to be directed at myself.

Correct.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 05 Jan 2016, 5:06 pm

I'm fairly certain the word celebrities isn't in our anthem...

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 5:10 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm fairly certain the word celebrities isn't in our anthem...

Do you speak Welsh mikey ?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 05 Jan 2016, 5:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I'm fairly certain the word celebrities isn't in our anthem...

Do you speak Welsh mikey ?

Not fluently, but surely 'celebrities' wasn't going around as a word in the 1800's. I can understand the difficulty in translating, but several other sources have those words translated as 'people of stature/famed men.' They aren't going to include something as tacky as the word celeb!

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Post by NeilyBroon Tue 05 Jan 2016, 5:47 pm

I wish Scotland were considering changing theirs. Flower of Scotland is depressing to sing!

This would be good though, as God save the Queen is God awful.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 5:47 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I'm fairly certain the word celebrities isn't in our anthem...

Do you speak Welsh mikey ?

Not fluently, but surely 'celebrities' wasn't going around as a word in the 1800's. I can understand the difficulty in translating, but several other sources have those words translated as 'people of stature/famed men.' They aren't going to include something as tacky as the word celeb!

I am a fluent Welsh speaker, I have spoken it for most my life. The use of the word celebrities is a more modern way of translating it.

I will tell you what, don't take my word for it,  search the web, even wiki uses it as a translation. Put the following into google translate if you want:-

enwogion o fri, it comes out as renowned celebrities. If you put a ; at the end of enwogion o fri, then it becomes people of fame/authority/stature. You see the Welsh language is not as straight forward as people might think. I explained this on another topic. If you put Ffos Las into google translate, the famous racecourse town, then it translates into Blue Ditch, when I have always translated it as the Blue Valley.

The word enwogion translates literally into celebrities. I have always used that word as a meaning of men of importance/authority it's how you chose to look at it. The Welsh language is constantly evolving, what was meant as one word 100 years ago, might not mean the same thing today.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Jan 2016, 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 05 Jan 2016, 6:04 pm

Good for you, I wish I was too.
How reliable a source do you think wiki is LD? Any shmuck on the web can edit the info... I view the anthem as how the James' would have seen it - and they certainly didn't write celebrities in the lyrics!

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 05 Jan 2016, 6:08 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:How reliable a source do you think wiki is LD? Any shmuck on the web can edit the info... I view the anthem as how the James' would have seen it - and they certainly didn't write celebrities in the lyrics!

The word enwogion translates literally into celebrities. I have always used that word as a meaning of men of importance/authority it's how you chose to look at it. The Welsh language is constantly evolving, what was meant as one word 100 years ago, might not mean the same thing today.

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Post by englandglory4ever Tue 05 Jan 2016, 8:42 pm

Bin Jerusalem. If it causes so much confusion on here then it ain't very good. We need to find something else. Something that is not a dirge but fun/good/nice/appealing/cheerful/etc to sing.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 05 Jan 2016, 9:40 pm

Chumbawamba?

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Post by belovedfrosties Tue 05 Jan 2016, 11:07 pm

I was at twickenham for the opening ceremony of the world cup and the band started jerusalem, the words came on the banner thing running between the tiers. It was the first time i've sung that song and was on the verge of tears by the end of it. For people saying it's not rousing enough, in the stadium it was more rousing than GSTQ. It's a bit of a slow builder but very powerful imo. Not sure how all the football fans would take to singing it, the words are a bit tricky after all. Plus, i'm sure some of them will get confused about the whole building jerusalem thing like some have here.

hope and glory is less appealing to me personally, but probably the better choice overall.

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Post by Cyril Wed 06 Jan 2016, 12:44 am

I like the lesser-known verse of the Welsh anthem that includes 'popty ping'. As Dowlais says, the language is evolving.

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Post by thomh Wed 06 Jan 2016, 1:04 am

belovedfrosties wrote:I was at twickenham for the opening ceremony of the world cup and the band started jerusalem, the words came on the banner thing running between the tiers.  It was the first time i've sung that song and was on the verge of tears by the end of it.  For people saying it's not rousing enough, in the stadium it was more rousing than GSTQ.  It's a bit of a slow builder but very powerful imo.  Not sure how all the football fans would take to singing it, the words are a bit tricky after all.  Plus, i'm sure some of them will get confused about the whole building jerusalem thing like some have here.

hope and glory is less appealing to me personally, but probably the better choice overall.

Jerusalem was amazing at the opening ceremony. I wish more people got involved in singing it when it's played 20 mins before kick-off at every home game.

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Post by Gwlad Wed 06 Jan 2016, 4:17 am

englandglory4ever wrote:Bin Jerusalem. If it causes so much confusion on here then it ain't very good. We need to find something else. Something that is not a dirge but fun/good/nice/appealing/cheerful/etc to sing.

Not hard to grasp…Jersualem is a metaphor for heaven which the song advocates being reconstructed amongst the dark Satanic mills of Stewart Lancaster's hometown.

Actually i agree that must be hard to grasp.


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Post by Poorfour Wed 06 Jan 2016, 11:41 am

Gwlad wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:Bin Jerusalem. If it causes so much confusion on here then it ain't very good. We need to find something else. Something that is not a dirge but fun/good/nice/appealing/cheerful/etc to sing.

Not hard to grasp…Jersualem is a metaphor for heaven which the song advocates being reconstructed amongst the dark Satanic mills of Stewart Lancaster's hometown.

Actually i agree that must be hard to grasp.


According to one version I've read, Blake was actually alluding to Oxford and Cambridge with the "dark satanic mills" line - I think believing that they were churning out people more fit to run factories than pursue Blake's somewhat dotty spiritual agenda.
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Post by munkian Wed 06 Jan 2016, 12:05 pm

Surely the'dark satanic mills' refers to the change in landscape by the industrial revolution ?

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Post by lostinwales Wed 06 Jan 2016, 12:06 pm

munkian wrote:Surely the'dark satanic mills' refers to the change in landscape by the industrial revolution ?


I liked the version which talked about 'dark satanic moles'

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 06 Jan 2016, 12:53 pm

lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:Surely the'dark satanic mills' refers to the change in landscape by the industrial revolution ?


I liked the version which talked about 'dark satanic moles'

The lady in our bakers has one of those

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Post by Pete330v2 Wed 06 Jan 2016, 1:00 pm

I don't know if this has been discussed previously as I'm a lazy sod and can't be bothered reading back but when England play Ireland there are always a fair number of Irish players who relate to the 'English' anthem than their own. It's nice of the English squad etc to sing the Irish guys anthem for them though Smile

For me Jerusalem would be one hell of a stirring anthem and let the haters hate. Most of them would only turn onto such things in order to get offended anyway. Just imagine Twickers when Jerusalem reaches that ending crescendo before a match. It's be more intimidating than a Haka.

Mind you it is more to do with the tradition of the anthems. I am from Northern Ireland and don't know the words of Amhrán na bhFiann but to hear it ringing out in Dublin is pure rugby for me. As a child I went to Lansdowne Road every year and that anthem has grown to be the anthem of Irish rugby to me more than anything else about it. That daft Irelands Call holds no place in any tradition IMO. Tradition is vey important when it comes to 6 nations time.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 06 Jan 2016, 1:17 pm

Everyone would need to learn the words to Jerusalem first...

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Post by munkian Wed 06 Jan 2016, 1:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Everyone would need to learn the words to Jerusalem first...

Steady on, you can only manage two lines of Swing Lo... Wink
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Post by TrailApe Wed 06 Jan 2016, 5:26 pm

I liked the version which talked about 'dark satanic moles'

My old clubs badge was a Mole - and I think that could quite easily apply to the vast majority of our players, past, present and at Her Majesty's pleasure.


Last edited by TrailApe on Wed 06 Jan 2016, 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by offload Wed 06 Jan 2016, 5:31 pm

The current dirge is all about a made up super natural being saving a monarch that many aren't that bothered about - all to a p**s awful drone.

Unfortunately most of the suggestions still include some of this nonsense, so whatever you pick, please make sure it has a bloody good tune!
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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 06 Jan 2016, 5:49 pm

offload wrote:The current dirge is all about a made up super natural being saving a monarch that many aren't that bothered about - all to a p**s awful drone.  

Unfortunately most of the suggestions still include some of this nonsense, so whatever you pick, please make sure it has a bloody good tune!

I think Jerusalem is the best of the bunch. Strip out the nonsense and it's basically about England being awesome (or England was awesome, is on decline and hope for awesome again in the future). Tune is good. But they're all too long. I can't stand GSTQ but at least I can just mute the tele for a few seconds. Still prefer it gone on principle.

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