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Those 6N's Rivalries

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Post by yappysnap Sun 03 Jan 2016, 8:54 am

First topic message reminder :

Just curious to see peoples thoughts on this. A lot is made of the whole England v Wales thing, but is that competitive spirit/dislike actually still as strong as it used to be?

For me I'd say the competitive side is as strong as ever. I have nothing against the Welsh, but they are definitely the fans that give out the most banter (digs) and they're the team that's probably caused England the most pain recently. They're also some of the best fans to chat rugby with in person, and from the times when I've randomly ended up watching games alongside them, can take criticism, a loss and a bit of mocking very well (as well as give it out). But they are definitely the team I dread losing to!

On the pitch I feel there are a few scores to settle as well namely that drubbing in Cardiff, and then the RWC loss (shudders). I hope who ever plays for England remembers those two defeats and uses that pain to make them come out with passion and play right on the edge. The 6n's is all about these historic games, where there is so much back story to every meeting, and this years England v Wales should be particularly spicy.

What other big rivalries are there in the 6N's now?

Feel free to let this become the wumming thread too...

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Post by lostinwales Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:06 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I know its all history (but history, certainly selected bits, seem to be very important to you) but overall England and Wales have both won the 6N 4 times and over history jointly top the number of wins at 26

Sorry I was talking about the last ten years. I should have made my self a bit more clearer.

Interesting I was just looking at tries scored and points scored for the history of the 6N and just the last 10 years, counting the cumultive points scored and going from 2015 backwards to avoid the England glory years. On average England have always scored more tries than anyone else except (briefly) for France and Ireland 2005-2007. Wales are very consistent if a step behind. Italy and Scotland are a further and significant step below the others (with Italy scoring more tries).

If you look at total points scored then England and Wales are ahead and very similar. It just shows that Wales have been kicking a lot of points

What is very noticeable also is how far France have fallen over the last 6 or 7 years.

(Work is way too quiet)

Interesting yet no surprises for me. I would be surprised if some other fans were surprised to hear that England were one of the teams leading the way with total points scored, wins, etc. I bet Ireland's would be pretty high too, just a shame their past matches against France always knocked a little bit of the gloss off their 6 Nations record.

Ireland France - little between them and Eng/Wal 10 years ago. Both had a lean few years from 2008 but then Ireland have steadily improved. France have not


Last edited by lostinwales on Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by beshocked Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:20 pm

Got to say that Bernard Laporte is quite an underrated coach.

4 6 nations titles (2 of them being GSs) - in charge of France from 1999-2007

3 European titles in a row with Toulon. Top 14 in 2013-14.

2 semi finals in 2003 and 2007 for France in RWC.

Very impressive resume.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:35 pm

beshocked wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Wales vs England mud slinging is pretty tiresome...

I know yeah and it's not even the most important game either at moment.

It is just pathetic dick measuring though. A lot of my dad could beat up your dad.

We beat "X".
Yeah but we beat "Y".
Yeah well we would have beaten "Y" but we had injuries.
Yeah but you couldn't score a try against "Z" when they had 2 players in the sin bin.

Let's be fair, England and Wales are 2 strong teams, both have a very good chance of winning the 6N.

However England have the strongest Scotland in 16 years first up at Murrayfield and Wales have the current champions in Dublin. Both teams starting with a loss isn't out of the realms of possibility.

A lot of rugby has to be played before England vs. Wales and the childish bickering is already at parody levels.

Strongest Scotland in years? You won the wooden spoon in 2015. Got to back up that comment with results.

Harsh perhaps but that's the case. Beat England then you can start making claims like that.

Wales have first up a side that just signed one of England's coaching cast offs and who also had a poor RWC. Irish clubs also struggling in the ERCC.

Don't get me wrong I am sure that neither England or Wales will underestimate their opponents but let's not build them up too much.


I should have caveat-ed  that with "on Paper". Our pack is arguably one of the best in the 6N at the moment. Our Scrum was very powerful in the RWC with neither South Africa or Australia causing us any distress. Contrast that with the problems the Australian scrum gave England.

As a sarries fan you'll know how well Taylor is playing for you guys. Instead of having him paired with Barritt with Scotland he'll have the in form Matt Scott inside him. Considering we played Nick De Luca and Sean Lamont in the centres just 2 years ago should go some way to explaining how I have come to the conclusion that we are at the strongest we have been for quite some time.

I have discussed this at length on another thread with my fellow Scotland posters and we are all in agreement that we are at our strongest we have been for quite some time. Look at the dross we served up few seasons ago :

The Squad of 2011, the ones in bold when compared to their present day peers should illustrate the difference.

Head Coach : Andy Robinson Stern Vern

Ross Ford
Dougie Hall Fraz Brown
Scott Lawson
Geoff Cross
Allan Jacobsen Dickinson
Moray Low WP Nel
Euan Murray
Jon Welsh
Richie Gray
Nathan Hines
Alastair Kellock(c) J Gray
Scott MacLeod
John Barclay
Kelly Brown
Rob Harley
Ross Rennie Hardie
Alasdair Strokosch Cowan
Johnnie Beattie Dozer Denton / Bluto (Strausss)
Richie Vernon Watson
Mike Blair
Rory Lawson SHC/Pyrgos
Greig Laidlaw
Ruaridh Jackson
Dan Parks Finn Russell
Joe Ansbro  Sad  Scott
Nick De Luca Bennett
Alex Grove Dunbar
Sean Lamont Taylor
Simon Danielli Seymore
Max Evans Visser (although might be a late arrival)
Rory Lamont Brown
Nikki Walker Maitland
Jack Cuthbert New Jack Cuthbert
Chris Paterson
Hugo Southwell Hogg

The ones in bold are significantly worse the current crop that I have highlighted beside them. Noone is saying "dark horses" yet... *oh love spuds I just did*, but seriously with a stable game plan devised by a new coach last year that took time to implement cost us in the 6N. However the RWC warm ups and the RWC itself saw the game plan starting to click and IMO there is no excuse not to carry on where we left off.

England will be in a similar position to Scotland during last years 6N. A new coach with new ideas. Albeit with a far stronger and larger pool of players to pick from. Jones' England will be dangerous and I do expect them to beat Scotland. However we are far stronger than we have been in recent years. Winning 2 games(Italy away and France at home)  for us would be a good start and IMO very achievable for this group of players.

England will be too strong as will Wales in Cardiff and Ireland in Dublin. However I would recognize the results detailed previously would be a firm step in the right direction and with a tough tour of Japan in the summer we will be in a position to build and potentially challenge for the 6N next year.

I do fully concede that our performances in the 6N have been dreadful and we deserve your scorn and that of other posters. However as I have detailed this Scotland side are quite different from the ones that have taken the field previously for us. We have a world class coach and a crop of young, skillful and hungry players.
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:40 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Wales vs England mud slinging is pretty tiresome...

I know yeah and it's not even the most important game either at moment.

It is just pathetic dick measuring though. A lot of my dad could beat up your dad.

We beat "X".
Yeah but we beat "Y".
Yeah well we would have beaten "Y" but we had injuries.
Yeah but you couldn't score a try against "Z" when they had 2 players in the sin bin.

Let's be fair, England and Wales are 2 strong teams, both have a very good chance of winning the 6N.

However England have the strongest Scotland in 16 years first up at Murrayfield and Wales have the current champions in Dublin. Both teams starting with a loss isn't out of the realms of possibility.

A lot of rugby has to be played before England vs. Wales and the childish bickering is already at parody levels.

Strongest Scotland in years? You won the wooden spoon in 2015. Got to back up that comment with results.

Harsh perhaps but that's the case. Beat England then you can start making claims like that.

Wales have first up a side that just signed one of England's coaching cast offs and who also had a poor RWC. Irish clubs also struggling in the ERCC.

Don't get me wrong I am sure that neither England or Wales will underestimate their opponents but let's not build them up too much.


I should have caveat-ed  that with "on Paper". Our pack is arguably one of the best in the 6N at the moment. Our Scrum was very powerful in the RWC with neither South Africa or Australia causing us any distress. Contrast that with the problems the Australian scrum gave England.

As a sarries fan you'll know how well Taylor is playing for you guys. Instead of having him paired with Barritt with Scotland he'll have the in form Matt Scott inside him. Considering we played Nick De Luca and Sean Lamont in the centres just 2 years ago should go some way to explaining how I have come to the conclusion that we are at the strongest we have been for quite some time.

I have discussed this at length on another thread with my fellow Scotland posters and we are all in agreement that we are at our strongest we have been for quite some time. Look at the dross we served up few seasons ago :

The Squad of 2011, the ones in bold when compared to their present day peers should illustrate the difference.

Head Coach : Andy Robinson Stern Vern

Ross Ford
Dougie Hall Fraz Brown
Scott Lawson
Geoff Cross
Allan Jacobsen Dickinson
Moray Low WP Nel
Euan Murray
Jon Welsh
Richie Gray
Nathan Hines
Alastair Kellock(c) J Gray
Scott MacLeod
John Barclay
Kelly Brown
Rob Harley
Ross Rennie Hardie
Alasdair Strokosch Cowan
Johnnie Beattie Dozer Denton / Bluto (Strausss)
Richie Vernon Watson
Mike Blair
Rory Lawson SHC/Pyrgos
Greig Laidlaw
Ruaridh Jackson
Dan Parks Finn Russell
Joe Ansbro  Sad  Scott
Nick De Luca Bennett
Alex Grove Dunbar
Sean Lamont Taylor
Simon Danielli Seymore
Max Evans Visser (although might be a late arrival)
Rory Lamont Brown
Nikki Walker Maitland
Jack Cuthbert New Jack Cuthbert
Chris Paterson
Hugo Southwell Hogg

The ones in bold are significantly worse the current crop that I have highlighted beside them. Noone is saying "dark horses" yet... *oh love spuds I just did*, but seriously with a stable game plan devised by a new coach last year that took time to implement cost us in the 6N. However the RWC warm ups and the RWC itself saw the game plan starting to click and IMO there is no excuse not to carry on where we left off.

England will be in a similar position to Scotland during last years 6N. A new coach with new ideas. Albeit with a far stronger and larger pool of players to pick from. Jones' England will be dangerous and I do expect them to beat Scotland. However we are far stronger than we have been in recent years. Winning 2 games(Italy away and France at home)  for us would be a good start and IMO very achievable for this group of players.

England will be too strong as will Wales in Cardiff and Ireland in Dublin. However I would recognize the results detailed previously would be a firm step in the right direction and with a tough tour of Japan in the summer we will be in a position to build and potentially challenge for the 6N next year.

I do fully concede that our performances in the 6N have been dreadful and we deserve your scorn and that of other posters. However as I have detailed this Scotland side are quite different from the ones that have taken the field previously for us. We have a world class coach and a crop of young, skillful and hungry players.

I don't know Radge - We should try and target Ireland away too. They seem to have slipped a bit judging by the regional performances.

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Post by munkian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:46 pm

If you manage to keep 15 players on the pitch against Wales it will be a vast improvement Wink
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:49 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Wales vs England mud slinging is pretty tiresome...

I know yeah and it's not even the most important game either at moment.

It is just pathetic dick measuring though. A lot of my dad could beat up your dad.

We beat "X".
Yeah but we beat "Y".
Yeah well we would have beaten "Y" but we had injuries.
Yeah but you couldn't score a try against "Z" when they had 2 players in the sin bin.

Let's be fair, England and Wales are 2 strong teams, both have a very good chance of winning the 6N.

However England have the strongest Scotland in 16 years first up at Murrayfield and Wales have the current champions in Dublin. Both teams starting with a loss isn't out of the realms of possibility.

A lot of rugby has to be played before England vs. Wales and the childish bickering is already at parody levels.

Strongest Scotland in years? You won the wooden spoon in 2015. Got to back up that comment with results.

Harsh perhaps but that's the case. Beat England then you can start making claims like that.

Wales have first up a side that just signed one of England's coaching cast offs and who also had a poor RWC. Irish clubs also struggling in the ERCC.

Don't get me wrong I am sure that neither England or Wales will underestimate their opponents but let's not build them up too much.


I should have caveat-ed  that with "on Paper". Our pack is arguably one of the best in the 6N at the moment. Our Scrum was very powerful in the RWC with neither South Africa or Australia causing us any distress. Contrast that with the problems the Australian scrum gave England.

As a sarries fan you'll know how well Taylor is playing for you guys. Instead of having him paired with Barritt with Scotland he'll have the in form Matt Scott inside him. Considering we played Nick De Luca and Sean Lamont in the centres just 2 years ago should go some way to explaining how I have come to the conclusion that we are at the strongest we have been for quite some time.

I have discussed this at length on another thread with my fellow Scotland posters and we are all in agreement that we are at our strongest we have been for quite some time. Look at the dross we served up few seasons ago :

The Squad of 2011, the ones in bold when compared to their present day peers should illustrate the difference.

Head Coach : Andy Robinson Stern Vern

Ross Ford
Dougie Hall Fraz Brown
Scott Lawson
Geoff Cross
Allan Jacobsen Dickinson
Moray Low WP Nel
Euan Murray
Jon Welsh
Richie Gray
Nathan Hines
Alastair Kellock(c) J Gray
Scott MacLeod
John Barclay
Kelly Brown
Rob Harley
Ross Rennie Hardie
Alasdair Strokosch Cowan
Johnnie Beattie Dozer Denton / Bluto (Strausss)
Richie Vernon Watson
Mike Blair
Rory Lawson SHC/Pyrgos
Greig Laidlaw
Ruaridh Jackson
Dan Parks Finn Russell
Joe Ansbro  Sad  Scott
Nick De Luca Bennett
Alex Grove Dunbar
Sean Lamont Taylor
Simon Danielli Seymore
Max Evans Visser (although might be a late arrival)
Rory Lamont Brown
Nikki Walker Maitland
Jack Cuthbert New Jack Cuthbert
Chris Paterson
Hugo Southwell Hogg

The ones in bold are significantly worse the current crop that I have highlighted beside them. Noone is saying "dark horses" yet... *oh love spuds I just did*, but seriously with a stable game plan devised by a new coach last year that took time to implement cost us in the 6N. However the RWC warm ups and the RWC itself saw the game plan starting to click and IMO there is no excuse not to carry on where we left off.

England will be in a similar position to Scotland during last years 6N. A new coach with new ideas. Albeit with a far stronger and larger pool of players to pick from. Jones' England will be dangerous and I do expect them to beat Scotland. However we are far stronger than we have been in recent years. Winning 2 games(Italy away and France at home)  for us would be a good start and IMO very achievable for this group of players.

England will be too strong as will Wales in Cardiff and Ireland in Dublin. However I would recognize the results detailed previously would be a firm step in the right direction and with a tough tour of Japan in the summer we will be in a position to build and potentially challenge for the 6N next year.

I do fully concede that our performances in the 6N have been dreadful and we deserve your scorn and that of other posters. However as I have detailed this Scotland side are quite different from the ones that have taken the field previously for us. We have a world class coach and a crop of young, skillful and hungry players.

I don't know Radge - We should try and target Ireland away too. They seem to have slipped a bit judging by the regional performances.

We were unlucky not to beat Ireland in Dublin during our RWC warm up against them. However in our last competative game we were ruthlessly crushed. Granted they are playing poor at regional level (ulster aside) and have a few injuries to contend with themselves. However I still think Ireland will be too strong for us in the 6N. Considering it is our last game their greater depth of players will pay dividends since the 6N is a pretty attritional tournament.
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Post by beshocked Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:57 pm

ruggerradge

You can look at a team on paper and be impressed but it's results and performances that count more.

You have some players I think are very good indeed but some who I think aren't very good at all. Some I believe are overrated.

It's when you compare your players to the likes of England,Ireland and Wales where I still feel you might struggle.

Do you honestly think you have a stronger pack than them?

England are not likely to start ickle Tom Youngs or lightweight Parling. It's going to be a bigger, meaner pack I expect. A proper openside at 7 hopefully.

Can't look at the England RWC pack and expect it to be the same in the 6 nations.

The thing about a fresh coach and set up is that you hope they'll look at the previous regimes mistakes and fix them.

You can say that you've improved but other sides aren't standing still.

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Post by munkian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 12:59 pm

Same can be said to your argument to be fair - You EXPECT Eddie Jones to ring the changes and improve performance but you wont know till the 6 Nations is over.
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:02 pm

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge

You can look at a team on paper and be impressed but it's results and performances that count more.

You have some players I think are very good indeed but some who I think aren't very good at all. Some I believe are overrated.

It's when you compare your players to the likes of England,Ireland and Wales where I still feel you might struggle.

Do you honestly think you have a stronger pack than them?

England are not likely to start ickle Tom Youngs or lightweight Parling. It's going to be a bigger, meaner pack I expect. A proper openside at 7 hopefully.

Can't look at the England RWC pack and expect it to be the same in the 6 nations.

The thing about a fresh coach and set up is that you hope they'll look at the previous regimes mistakes and fix them.

You can say that you've improved but other sides aren't standing still.

To be fair Beshocked, the England pack will not change drastically, maybe one or two changes granted, but experience counts in the 6N and throwing a new set of forwards in will do more harm than good for England.

And you're right, results do count and you can only be judged by your last performance......which in Scotland's case was pretty bloody good (for a change).

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:17 pm

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge

You can look at a team on paper and be impressed but it's results and performances that count more.

You have some players I think are very good indeed but some who I think aren't very good at all. Some I believe are overrated.

It's when you compare your players to the likes of England,Ireland and Wales where I still feel you might struggle.

Do you honestly think you have a stronger pack than them?

England are not likely to start ickle Tom Youngs or lightweight Parling. It's going to be a bigger, meaner pack I expect. A proper openside at 7 hopefully.

Can't look at the England RWC pack and expect it to be the same in the 6 nations.

The thing about a fresh coach and set up is that you hope they'll look at the previous regimes mistakes and fix them.

You can say that you've improved but other sides aren't standing still.

What works against England and Jones is time, or his lack of it.

Sure BT sport and Sky sports do the cliched close up of him in the stands in an awful scarf at all the matches he has attended but England have a lot of clubs all playing a different style of rugby.

I have said previously that England's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness, such a huge pool of players means it's hard to see clearly who your best XV are. I think Jones could do worse than try to emulate Sarries style of play. However the maverick in him might prefer to see Ford at 10 and play the kind of attacking rugby Bath employ. His selection at 10 will give us all a better idea of how he wants England to play.

Like it or not this is a transitional period for England. Jones may very well replicate Lancasters style of play in the interim. The style that worked so well in last years 6N I might add as opposed to the conservative dirge he served up in the RWC.

Onto comparrisons of our players...

The front row Edinburgh/Scotland* delete as appropriate has dominated all season in the pro12 and at the RWC.
The Gray brothers are equal to any lock combination in the 6N. Against De Jager and Estebeth in the RWC neither was outclassed physically or technically.
Our backrow is very competative, scoring more turnovers in our game against Austalia.
Laidlaw is in the form of his life, Russell is playing well and Jackson has been instrumental in all of Wasp's recent good performances.
our centres of Scott and Taylor (our most likely pairing) are both playing well, the latter confining Bosch to the bench for Sarries.
Sadly it is at wing and full back we start to encounter problems. Hogg is off form, Visser has been lethal for Quinns but is injured and so is Maitland and Seymore. We will have issues here come the start of February.

So I personally think we compare quite favorably to a lot of the 6N competition. If you have some counter arguments Beshocked I'm all ears, or in the case of a form eyes.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:22 pm

I still think England go to Murrayfield clear favourites. I'd prefer a couple of key changes in the pack to ensure we win that battle. Both sets of backs can be dangerous but England are a couple of steps along in development even with the 'set back' of a new coach.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still think England go to Murrayfield clear favourites. I'd prefer a couple of key changes in the pack to ensure we win that battle. Both sets of backs can be dangerous but England are a couple of steps along in development even with the 'set back' of a new coach.

I agree, ditching Marler who's favorite street in harry potter was Diagon Alley would be a terrific start.
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Post by beshocked Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:24 pm

munkian I agree. I don't know but I am hopeful.

tattie it won't be a drastic change in personnel but enough to make a big difference. That's the good thing. There should be some continuity but also a fresh approach.

If England play the likes of Mako,Launchbury,Billy,Robshaw in the pack there will be a bit of experience there. Could be Cole,Marler,Hartley which is not an inexperienced front row.

It's not as if the Scottish pack is hugely experienced. The likes of Nel,Hardie,Cowan,Strauss aren't.

England also have a younger selection of forwards.


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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:28 pm

beshocked wrote:munkian I agree. I don't know but I am hopeful.

tattie it won't be a drastic change in personnel but enough to make a big difference. That's the good thing. There should be some continuity but also a fresh approach.

If England play the likes of Mako,Launchbury,Billy,Robshaw in the pack there will be a bit of experience there. Could be Cole,Marler,Hartley which is not an inexperienced front row.

It's not as if the Scottish pack is hugely experienced. The likes of Nel,Hardie,Cowan,Strauss aren't.

England also have a younger selection of forwards.


Granted, however the Scottish pack dealt with the Australian pack significantly better than England's "experienced" set of forwards. Jones will bring in changes Hartley probably the most notable however the changes IMO will not be drastic enough to influence the game as much as you suggest.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:31 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I still think England go to Murrayfield clear favourites. I'd prefer a couple of key changes in the pack to ensure we win that battle. Both sets of backs can be dangerous but England are a couple of steps along in development even with the 'set back' of a new coach.

I agree, ditching Marler who's favorite street in harry potter was Diagon Alley would be a terrific start.

Disagree there, probably the 2nd best loosehead in terms of scrummaging we have. The Aus pack did well to make it out he has a problem though, bit of streetwise play.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I still think England go to Murrayfield clear favourites. I'd prefer a couple of key changes in the pack to ensure we win that battle. Both sets of backs can be dangerous but England are a couple of steps along in development even with the 'set back' of a new coach.

I agree, ditching Marler who's favorite street in harry potter was Diagon Alley would be a terrific start.

Disagree there, probably the 2nd best loosehead in terms of scrummaging we have. The Aus pack did well to make it out he has a problem though, bit of streetwise play.

My memory of the game was that looking down camera thing that the coverage had going on that showed clearly Marler NEVER driving straight at every engagement in which he wasn't going backwards at an alarming rate of knots.

If anyone was streetwise it was Cheika himself who pointed it out before the match. Marler had to know he was going to be scrutinized heavily given the ammount of coverage Cheika's remarks got from the media. Poite is a terrific referee when it comes to scrummaging and is seldom wrong in his interpenetration of the laws.

If you have a ridiculous Mohawk my advice would be don't get man-shamed in a Scrum in a RWC you are hosting on your home turf. Marler failed that test.

My knowledge of the AP is limited but I find it hard to believe Marler is the best option at loosehead for England.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:46 pm

You'll have also seen the entire front row of Aus marching across forcing him to do that then? As I said Aus set it up and played it well. He's a very good player.

Mullan is probably the best scrummager for me at loosehead followed by Marler.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:53 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My memory of the game was that looking down camera thing that the coverage had going on that showed clearly Marler NEVER driving straight at every engagement in which he wasn't going backwards at an alarming rate of knots.

RR, yes you are right. I remember seeing this on the tele. There was a camera angle that showed the scrum from directly on top. The flanker, Robshaw I think, although I could be wrong, left his bind and stepped out, then Marler drove in on an angle which the flanker supported and pushed around as well. All this went on during the England V Wales game.

This was well documented during the game and by Cheika afterwards, then the next ref knew what to look for and the English scrum all of a sudden was not as dominant.

In saying that I still think the English scrum will be better than the Scottish one come the 6N.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 1:55 pm

You should both go back if you have the video available and have another butchers. Aus did brilliantly from players to coach but it's no coincidence that dominance was not transferred to other games.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You should both go back if you have the video available and have another butchers. Aus did brilliantly from players to coach but it's no coincidence that dominance was not transferred to other games.

England antic's at the scrum in the Wales game was one of the big talking points, did you not watch the game ? It was clear for all to see, and because of this, England then lost their advantage against Australia, as Cheika screamed it from the rooftops. Unless I am thinking of another WC that happened in 2015.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:07 pm

Yesh, give it another watch is what I'm saying. Very well played by the Aussies.

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Post by munkian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yesh, give it another watch is what I'm saying. Very well played by the Aussies.

Well played by pointing out he was cheating ? I don't understand what else you could mean ?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:19 pm

He wasn't cheating munkian. If you watch it back the entire Aus pack are crabbing across. They set it up through public comments as well as private and then implemented it to get the upper hand. Everything you would want to do as the opposition.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:21 pm

It wasn't that noticeable for me during the Wales game, as I'm not forward or scrum expert. However in that game and the one before it at Twickenham I suspected something was up for the penalty count to weigh so heavily in England's favour. I'm glad it was pointed out by the Aussies because our scrum and in particular Jenkins* have been under heavy scrutiny, and most of it unfair.

*Jenkins is still a great player but has been a bit past it for the last two or three years. I think he should be on the bench and one of Rob Evans or Rhys Gill should start.

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Post by munkian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't cheating munkian. If you watch it back the entire Aus pack are crabbing across. They set it up through public comments as well as private and then implemented it to get the upper hand. Everything you would want to do as the opposition.

He wasn't cheating the ENTIRE Aus pack were ? Jesus wept chin
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:24 pm

Fair enough, I can't change any minds, I just think you'd be well off going to have a close look at the Aus game scrums where Marler is pinged.

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Post by munkian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:27 pm

Marler has been severley wronged over the years, started in 2013 when the entire Welsh pack cheated to make him look poor.

Its a Welsh/Antipodean conspiracy that spans 3 years Erm
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:31 pm

I don't think Marler is a big scrummager but he's severely hindered when playing next to Tom Youngs who offers little in the set piece. He rarely struggles when Hartley plays.

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Post by beshocked Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:34 pm

ruggerradge sadly it seems that Scottish optimism is based on two matches - England vs Australia and Scotland vs Australia in the RWC. I think it's great that you have confidence in your team but wait till you beat England before claiming that the Scottish pack is one of the best in the 6 nations.

It would be strange if Eddie Jones doesn't go for a Saracens approach for numerous reasons.

mikey dragon would love it if Wales started the penalty machine Gill though can you please do so against England.

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Post by munkian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:35 pm

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge sadly it seems that Scottish optimism is based on two matches - England vs Australia and Scotland vs Australia in the RWC. I think it's great that you have confidence in your team but wait till you beat England before claiming that the Scottish pack is one of the best in the 6 nations.

It would be strange if Eddie Jones doesn't go for a Saracens approach for numerous reasons.

mikey dragon would love it if Wales started the penalty machine Gill though can you please do so against England.

Unlikely with the red card hearing..
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He wasn't cheating munkian. If you watch it back the entire Aus pack are crabbing across. They set it up through public comments as well as private and then implemented it to get the upper hand. Everything you would want to do as the opposition.

So you are dismissing the highly documented series of events that were spoken about during the England V Wales game where there was footage of Marler and the flanker deliberately pushing on an angle at every scrum then are you ? You are not going to even admit what was shown to the public by ITV during the match, and what was spoken about at length afterwards by everybody, mostly Cheika I will admit, but everyone and their dog were on about it, and how these new camera's on a zip line caught out what was being done during the game ?

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:42 pm

Wasn't the red card more a technical offence as opposed to violent dirty play? If so then I imagine the ban (if gets one) will not be as bad.

I don't actually know where Gatland sees Gill at the moment. He was involved in the last 6 Nations and done really well against Castro in the Italy game but then he didn't figure in the WC.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:44 pm

Not talking about wales at all LD. Purely the Aus game as stated several times. Like I said if everyone wants to have the view that Marler is now a poor scrummager fair enough. I would say go and have a look at the Aus game, though by the looks of it no views would change anyway.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:48 pm

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge sadly it seems that Scottish optimism is based on two matches - England vs Australia and Scotland vs Australia in the RWC. I think it's great that you have confidence in your team but wait till you beat England before claiming that the Scottish pack is one of the best in the 6 nations.

It would be strange if Eddie Jones doesn't go for a Saracens approach for numerous reasons.

mikey dragon would love it if Wales started the penalty machine Gill though can you please do so against England.

Based on the most recent set of results which is all we can really do, Scotland are in a better position currently than England, who had a dire world cup and have a new coach with his feet barely under the desk. That's a fact.

England have a substantially larger player pool which said new coach can pick from. That's another fact.

Beyond that not much else can be said. Based on player pool England could and should IMO be considered favorites.

However Beshocked, you cannot seriously look at recent Scotland and England form and not be a little bit hesitant about your trip up here can you?
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not talking about wales at all LD. Purely the Aus game as stated several times. Like I said if everyone wants to have the view that Marler is now a poor scrummager fair enough. I would say go and have a look at the Aus game, though by the looks of it no views would change anyway.

I never said Marler was a poor scrummager, I was just agreeing with rugerradge with what was picked up, and spoken about at length during the England V Wales game.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 2:59 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Based on the most recent set of results which is all we can really do, Scotland are in a better position currently than England, who had a dire world cup and have a new coach with his feet barely under the desk. That's a fact.

Now this is where I will disagree with you RR. I do not think Scotland had that much of a better WC than England, if Scotland were in the same group as England I doubt you would have done any better, I reckon you would have beaten Uruguay, and Fiji would have been a 50/50 for you.

The thing is, you beat a knackered Japan side, struggled past Samoa and got humped by South Africa, then based on a game against Australia you are getting exited.

Look I do not want to pour water on your fire, I do think Scotland are an improved side, just not enough to warrant a place at the same table as the top European countries, not yet anyway.

If I were an Englishman, I would not be at all worried about going up to Scotland in this coming 6N.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:04 pm

Fair enough LD. Wales got done on that day like England the next week. Ironically is Marler hadn't taken advantage of that he probably would have had a better time of it vs Aus.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Based on the most recent set of results which is all we can really do, Scotland are in a better position currently than England, who had a dire world cup and have a new coach with his feet barely under the desk. That's a fact.

Now this is where I will disagree with you RR. I do not think Scotland had that much of a better WC than England, if Scotland were in the same group as England I doubt you would have done any better, I reckon you would have beaten Uruguay, and Fiji would have been a 50/50 for you.

The thing is, you beat a knackered Japan side, struggled past Samoa and got humped by South Africa, then based on a game against Australia you are getting exited.

Look I do not want to pour water on your fire, I do think Scotland are an improved side, just not enough to warrant a place at the same table as the top European countries, not yet anyway.

If I were an Englishman, I would not be at all worried about going up to Scotland in this coming 6N.


Scotland scored tries against Australia, which was more than we managed, Dowlais. And let's not airbrush history - we were mightily relieved to see off Fiji ourselves.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:08 pm

Cheating is always a difficult area when it comes to the front row, as many things are 'legitimate' as long as it does not cause injury and the referee lets it go. It's not like the Welsh scrum hasn't played for penalties in the past either.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Based on the most recent set of results which is all we can really do, Scotland are in a better position currently than England, who had a dire world cup and have a new coach with his feet barely under the desk. That's a fact.

Now this is where I will disagree with you RR. I do not think Scotland had that much of a better WC than England, if Scotland were in the same group as England I doubt you would have done any better, I reckon you would have beaten Uruguay, and Fiji would have been a 50/50 for you.

The thing is, you beat a knackered Japan side, struggled past Samoa and got humped by South Africa, then based on a game against Australia you are getting exited.

Look I do not want to pour water on your fire, I do think Scotland are an improved side, just not enough to warrant a place at the same table as the top European countries, not yet anyway.

If I were an Englishman, I would not be at all worried about going up to Scotland in this coming 6N.

Everyone keeps making an issue out of Japanese fatigue without any consultation as to the terrible draw Scotland got in terms of scheduling. 3 games in 10 days against Japan, USA and South Africa. However when South Africa "hammered" us (a very speculative suggestion) no comment is made about our 4 day turnaround from Japan to the US and again a 5 day turnaround from the US to South Africa... chin

As Luckless pointed out we scored 3 tries against Oz who kept everyone on the park for the whole 80 minutes. In the end the difference between Scotland and Australia was a brain fart at a lineout on our own lineout and a subsequent brain fart from Craig Joubert.


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:12 pm

lostinwales wrote:Scotland scored tries against Australia, which was more than we managed, Dowlais. And let's not airbrush history - we were mightily relieved to see off Fiji ourselves.

I am not going to argue over Fiji, but we did beat them.

Also, in my opinion, Scotland's tries against Australia were more down to the Aussies fecking up, but I will admit, Scotland were unlucky against them in the end. Do you reckon we would have scored a try against Australia if we had some of our injured players available ?

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Post by lostinwales Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Scotland scored tries against Australia, which was more than we managed, Dowlais. And let's not airbrush history - we were mightily relieved to see off Fiji ourselves.

I am not going to argue over Fiji, but we did beat them.

Also, in my opinion, Scotland's tries against Australia were more down to the Aussies fecking up, but I will admit, Scotland were unlucky against them in the end. Do you reckon we would have scored a try against Australia if we had some of our injured players available ?

That wasn't me....


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:14 pm

RuggerRadge2611, how do you reckon you would have faired in England's group ?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Scotland scored tries against Australia, which was more than we managed, Dowlais. And let's not airbrush history - we were mightily relieved to see off Fiji ourselves.

I am not going to argue over Fiji, but we did beat them.

Also, in my opinion, Scotland's tries against Australia were more down to the Aussies fecking up, but I will admit, Scotland were unlucky against them in the end. Do you reckon we would have scored a try against Australia if we had some of our injured players available ?

That's a moot point, because we didn't have them available, but we're not a free-scoring side whoever we have on the field.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:RuggerRadge2611, how do you reckon you would have faired in England's group ?

I doubt we would have qualified.

That doesn't mean I don't think we can't beat Wales or England in the six nations. Taken in isolation Scotland has a better record against Australia than either Wales or England. However we have a significantly poorer record when playing England or Wales in direct competition.

None of these results however have any bearing on the teams that will meet next month. The teams are full of new players, some have new coaches some have key injuries. Trawling over past results sheds no light at all on current form and fitness of key players across all the 6N teams.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:28 pm

Scotland don't have a better record vs Aus than England surely?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scotland don't have a better record vs Aus than England surely?

In the last 10 years. England have played Oz 11 times and won 5 times W/L Ratio : 0.45

In the last 10 years Scotland have played Oz 5 times winning twice W/L Ratio : 0.4

So no they do not. I was wrong, but there's not much between them. England's status as a teir 1 nation obviously gives them more opportunities to play the likes of Australia.

I'll save Wales' blushes by not looking at their record against HMP Australia kiss Wink
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:42 pm

Ha. Closer than I thought but I was going past the magical 10 year mark granted. Wish it was Murrayfield tomorrow, my favourite fixture.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Closer than I thought but I was going past the magical 10 year mark granted. Wish it was Murrayfield tomorrow, my favourite fixture.

Ditto, but my Welsh dad has become insufferable over the last few years so I really want Scotland to do them in the 2nd week of the competition.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Jan 2016, 3:46 pm

Compromise on an English win 1st week and Scottish 2nd then?

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