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Time to see a more expansive style of rugby in the Six Nations

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 06 Jan 2016, 10:45 am

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article in the Telegraph by Steve James, demonstrating the attacking stats from the World Cup.

"In seven matches against other Tier One nations New Zealand and Australia scored 25 tries and kicked just 18 penalties, while in 21 games the eight other Tier One nations between them managed just 26 tries and kicked 79 penalties against other Tier One opponents."

"The basics of the set-piece are still kings: 50 per cent of tries at the World Cup were scored from line-outs, and only Ireland had a better success rate than New Zealand’s 95 per cent at the line-out, while New Zealand had the most steals at 24."

"As for the scrummage, 15 per cent of tries came from that (and only 12 per cent from turnovers), and New Zealand scored most tries from scrummages, with their scrum “least likely to be reset and one of the least likely to end in a penalty or free-kick”."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/12081583/Six-Nations-sides-must-realise-it-is-time-to-change.html

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Jan 2016, 3:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:To change the style would mean to change the players

It really wouldn't.

Well I am yet to see Jamie Roberts jinking and sidestepping his way through tackles, and I have been watching him for years, he never did this when he first came onto the scene with Cardiff Blues when he was playing on the wing and at fullback, and I am yet to see him do this whilst playing in the center.

He's not a jinking kind of player, I agree, but he can step and he can certainly pass (he set up a great try for Quins recently). But it seems that all Wales want him to do is take the ball into contact.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Jan 2016, 3:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But it shouldn't be one or the other. To be dangerous we need to have both, and keep the opposition guessing.

Well, we are either playing bish, bash, bosh or we ain't. We cannot play two styles at once.

Of course you can!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Jan 2016, 3:56 pm

The question is: Is the current game plan and set of players yielding the greatest set of results possible for Wales in your view? Or would a change in game plan and any associated changes in personnel you feel would be necessary bring a better set of results? Again all in your opinion.

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Post by wrfc1980 Thu 14 Jan 2016, 4:12 pm

Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 14 Jan 2016, 4:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The question is: Is the current game plan and set of players yielding the greatest set of results possible for Wales in your view? Or would a change in game plan and any associated changes in personnel you feel would be necessary bring a better set of results? Again all in your opinion.

I have answered this once, and I told you, I do not know. Neither would anybody else, not until it is tried.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 14 Jan 2016, 4:19 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.

Everybody else might have a better record against the big 3. But lets not kid ourselves, everybody else's records are nothing to be proud of either.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Jan 2016, 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The question is: Is the current game plan and set of players yielding the greatest set of results possible for Wales in your view? Or would a change in game plan and any associated changes in personnel you feel would be necessary bring a better set of results? Again all in your opinion.

I have answered this once, and I told you, I do not know. Neither would anybody else, not until it is tried.

It's just your opinion. You must surely have a view?

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 14 Jan 2016, 4:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It's just your opinion. You must surely have a view?

To be honest I have never thought about it. I just watch Wales, sometimes I wish they would do less bashing, sometimes I thing, yeah great we are doing alright, we scored a few tries last 6N and they were not down to bashing, some of our tries against Scotland and Italy were quite expansive, and our try against Ireland was not down to forwards, it was Scott Williams cutting the line, so I do not know to be honest.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Jan 2016, 5:05 pm

Fence sitter!

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Post by gregortree Thu 14 Jan 2016, 6:29 pm

Which style ?
In a way what Eddie said at the conference was pretty generic I thought.
The Basics are essential (England pack has work to do there) see OP article about scrum and lineout basis for NZ tries and success.
Followed by speed and accuracy behind to rapidly convert the possession into tries.

You could argue all 6n teams could develop their game further in this
direction. As to more direct bish bash, well Nonu, Tuilagi, Roberts show that there is still a place for that where a squad has that resource in its arsenal. The rest is somewhat player dependent.
And finally ....quick scrums no resets, quick recycling, no kicking away of good possession. Some of the NZ Australia and Japan lessons we can learn from.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Jan 2016, 8:32 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.

So after being shown up you've moved the goal posts? Nice one. BTW, I think it's 'the NH' that has a terrible record against the top 3 sides. England are one of them having not beaten SA for a number of years. I think their record against Aus is more decent than most NH teams though.

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Post by ebop Thu 14 Jan 2016, 9:43 pm

This is just my opinion and others will no doubt disagree. But in order of interest / importance, I rank the following...

RWC
Bledisloe Cup
End of year (NH tour)
Rugby Championship
Mid year (NH tour)
Super Rugby
ITM cup

I'm curious where the 6Ns sits with NH fans. I'm guessing it's near or at the top. Reason I bring this up is that I get the feeling the 6Ns is so important to teams and fans that it's the must win thing in any given year. But isn't it structured in a way that results in high stakes low risk must win rugby? Teams play each other once. There's very little wriggle room to play highfalutin high risk rugby when a single loss can rule out ones chances of winning the thing. Of course when it comes down to points difference it can result in a blow out but it's not the default. I'm wondering if the 6Ns given its significance is stifling open rugby in the NH. It sets the scene.

ps. Including SA in a discussion about expansive rugby in the SH is not really that appropriate imo. I'll always respect SA for their rugby but they have a more low risk ethos.
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Post by ebop Thu 14 Jan 2016, 9:56 pm

Also, I reckon it's not really 'expansive' that is the difference between say the All Blacks and some NH teams. It's micro skills like all/most players being able to offload, tackle (!!!), pop passes, pass behind their backs, have a go at kicking from hand, support players and then pass themselves to another supporting player, sidestep (even our props/hookers sidestep), hit a breakdown hard etc etc. These are just some of the skills, some basic some technical, that make the difference imo between 'creating' a chance and then going on to execute it 'accurately'. If an international team is worrying about just getting the basics right then I'd have thought that team would be struggling to challenge some teams.
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Post by DirtyRucker7 Thu 14 Jan 2016, 10:07 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.
Calm down lad ,Gatland and his Welsh players have beaten more Southern Hemisphere teams than you have. I just wouldn't go around calling award winning coaches and players laughable,it's juvenile and border line football fan mentality. Just sit down and cool off no need for such knee jerk reactions just to try and one up some other poster on the internet.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Jan 2016, 10:21 pm

DirtyRucker7 wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.
Calm down lad ,Gatland and his Welsh players have beaten more Southern Hemisphere teams than you have. I just wouldn't go around calling award winning coaches and players laughable,it's juvenile and border line football fan mentality. Just sit down and cool off no need for such knee jerk reactions just to try and one up some other poster on the internet.

That's all his short posting history entails though, it seems rather obsessed. I'm convinced his wife run off with a milkman who happened to be welsh.

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Post by TJ Thu 14 Jan 2016, 11:22 pm

ebop wrote:This is just my opinion and others will no doubt disagree. But in order of interest / importance, I rank the following...

RWC
Bledisloe Cup
End of year (NH tour)
Rugby Championship
Mid year (NH tour)
Super Rugby
ITM cup

I'm curious where the 6Ns sits with NH fans. I'm guessing it's near or at the top. Reason I bring this up is that I get the feeling the 6Ns is so important to teams and fans that it's the must win thing in any given year. But isn't it structured in a way that results in high stakes low risk must win rugby? Teams play each other once. There's very little wriggle room to play highfalutin high risk rugby when a single loss can rule out ones chances of winning the thing. Of course when it comes down to points difference it can result in a blow out but it's not the default. I'm wondering if the 6Ns given its significance is stifling open rugby in the NH. It sets the scene.

ps. Including SA in a discussion about expansive rugby in the SH is not really that appropriate imo. I'll always respect SA for their rugby but they have a more low risk ethos.

For me as a scotland fan? WC, 6N , euro cup top teir. pro 12, not really interested in owt else. Pro 12 produce some really great games tho - some of the best I have ever seen in terms of attacking intent and drama. Second teir euro cup is a waste of time

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Post by gregortree Fri 15 Jan 2016, 12:48 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
DirtyRucker7 wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.
Calm down lad ,Gatland and his Welsh players have beaten more Southern Hemisphere teams than you have. I just wouldn't go around calling award winning coaches and players laughable,it's juvenile and border line football fan mentality. Just sit down and cool off no need for such knee jerk reactions just to try and one up some other poster on the internet.

That's all his short posting history entails though, it seems rather obsessed. I'm convinced his wife run off with a milkman who happened to be welsh.
Maybe his wife is Welsh and is a daffodil wearing dragon.?

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Post by Icu Fri 15 Jan 2016, 1:07 am

George Carlin wrote:
Icu wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:No we don't need to change.

For the most part theres not huge gaps between the SH and NH. The gap is the efficiency with which the SH take their chances.

We need to focus on that.
Im sick of pandering to the SH teams. "Oh they're gods we need to match them."

Rubbish.

Aside from NZ the NH have been doing just fine against the others. Scotland have been beating them regularly.

7 SH world cup victories v 1 NH world cup victory, an overall losing record for all of the 5N against NZ, SA and Australia, the extreme rarity of the 5N to beat NZ, SA or Aust in their own backyards suggests otherwise - (England have only ever beaten Australia 3 times in Australia, Scotland x 2, Ireland x 3, Wales x 1, France x 4). No doubt the record would even worse for them against NZ and SA.  
Australia has won more games against Ireland, Wales and Scotland on their own home grounds while the score at Twickenham is 13 wins for England and 11 wins for Australia. Only France have a significantly good record at home against Australia. This indicates a healthy gap in my opinion, especially considering Australia has traditionally always been the weaker of the trio.
All true ICU, but you're missing the most important point which is that I really want to come and stay with you:
http://www.centralcoastaustralia.com.au/info/towns/avoca-beach/

Had to look your neighbourhood up. But nice, very nice.

Welcome anytime. We've even got a pretty decent rugby club/side.

http://www.avocabeachrugby.club/

Ex-Wallaby coach Alan Jones has a place up this way and often is a guest speaker at function nights.

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Post by munkian Fri 15 Jan 2016, 10:41 am

TightHEAD wrote:I hope the British & Irish Lions wait until they see what the other coaches bring to the party before handing him the Lions job again.

Thank you Keith Wood Rolling Eyes
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Post by lostinwales Fri 15 Jan 2016, 10:57 am

DirtyRucker7 wrote:
wrfc1980 wrote:Wales have a terrible record aganst the top 3 sides, results against the NH is one thing results against SH another. Gats has only taken Wales so far, he is unable to improve his record against the top 3 sides above 'laughable'. 'Gatball' has failed time and time again against them.
Calm down lad ,Gatland and his Welsh players have beaten more Southern Hemisphere teams than you have. I just wouldn't go around calling award winning coaches and players laughable,it's juvenile and border line football fan mentality. Just sit down and cool off no need for such knee jerk reactions just to try and one up some other poster on the internet.

Erm Wales record vs the top SH 3 during his tenure played 27 times won twice

England under Lancaster played top SH 3 15 times won 3 times and one draw.

Bald men and combs come to mind but...

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Post by Cyril Fri 15 Jan 2016, 11:00 am

I wonder if by 'you' he meant the poster personally. In which case he's probably right, unless we've got some top level coaches on here Wink

If he meant England (and Lancaster) he's definitely not correct. In that regard, we're definitely thinning but not quite bald.


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Post by lostinwales Fri 15 Jan 2016, 11:05 am

Cyril wrote:I wonder if by 'you' he meant the poster personally. In which case he's probably right, unless we've got some top level coaches on here Wink

If he meant England (and Lancaster) he's definitely not correct. In that regard, we're definitely thinning but not quite bald.


That win vs NZ makes for a great comb over.

Sadly that Gregor Fisher character comes to mind. Not sure for whom, probably both of us...

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Post by DirtyRucker7 Fri 15 Jan 2016, 9:50 pm

I mean posters ,yep we all have opinions but remember how good pro coaches and players are before we bad mouth them Hug

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 16 Jan 2016, 7:12 pm

Good win for Zebre today, away from home against Worcester. Wuss suffer the double, well done Zebre!

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Post by gregortree Wed 20 Jan 2016, 10:37 am

Warrenball is dead then ?
So declares Owen Slot in The Times.
Gethin still in.

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Post by gregortree Wed 20 Jan 2016, 10:46 am

Warrenball is dead then ?
So declares  Owen Slot in The Times.
Gethin still in.

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Post by TightHEAD Wed 20 Jan 2016, 10:47 am

Warrenball will never die.
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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:33 pm

Why is Warrenball dead?

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Post by gregortree Wed 20 Jan 2016, 1:26 pm

Because The Times says so.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 20 Jan 2016, 1:49 pm

Didn't they also say England would be world cup champions? Whistle

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Post by gregortree Wed 20 Jan 2016, 5:28 pm

Don't read Murdoch's filth normally, but was in a cafe and idly browsed the rugby section. It was all about Wales, but then this is the West Country of England edition, shows what The Times beyond London knows.
Said Warrenball is over....apparently.
Whistle

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