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England Squad for the 6N 2016 #2

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 07 Jan 2016, 2:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:24 pm

Interesting squad.

7.5 guess we were well wide of the Mark with Fraser and Kvesic.

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Post by Chjw131 Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:25 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
nathan wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:Eddie Jones on the captaincy.

“We’ve got 33 players, then it gets down to 23, then we have to pick 15, then I’ll worry about the captain.” Could anyone be captain then? “Yeah, you could be captain, mate.”

“He’s got to be one of the first names in the team, your best player, lead by example, set standards of how we operate on the field, off the field, and be a conduit between staff and players.” Will it be an appointment for the long-term or just the Six Nations? “Probably just an appointment for the Six Nations, to start with.”

who's that pointing towards?

Doesn't sound like Hartley to me!

that's what I was thinking. Brown? Launchbury?

Likewise. Maybe he'll pick Jamie George then?!

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Post by gregortree Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:30 pm

I think I read that Kvesic was a late injury replacement for not sure ?
For whom ? Anyone any insight on that ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:31 pm

Got to be happy with that squad geordie, got something in there for everyone.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:32 pm

Very happy with that squad overall.

Kvesic only being an injury replacement is interesting but he's there and that's what matters. Hopefully he gets a game to prove himself. If Fraser and Kvesic weren't in his original squad then I can only guess that Clifford will be starting 7.

Paul Hill jumping ahead of Thomas may well be the influence of our Peel as scrum coach as well as his impressive performances. He will have had an influence in borderline calls in the front row. LCD is likely in this bracket as well.

Mako, George, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Kvesic, Vunipola
Youngs, Farrell, Nowell, Hill, Daly, Watson, Brown

Bench: Hartley, Marler, Hill, Itoje, Clifford, Care, Ford, Joseph

I'll have that for Murrayfield please. My one worry is Launchbury and/or Kruis not making the first game. Itoje and Lawes is not a second row partnership that excites me.

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Post by Tiger/Chief Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:32 pm

how do injury replacements work? Will the injured players come straight back in after the Scotland game or are the injury replacements for the entire tournament?

Ewers is nearly fit now and will probs be playing by the Scotland game

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:32 pm

What is the team then? Something like:
01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. Courtney Lawes
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Jack Clifford
08. Billy Vunipola

09. Ben Youngs
10. George Ford

11. Jack Nowell
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jon Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Mike Brown
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:36 pm

For me I'd have Mullan and Kvesic starting in the pack.

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Post by nathan Wed 13 Jan 2016, 3:53 pm

https://twitter.com/skysportsrugby/status/687295254719033345

Interesting to see the ages

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 4:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Got to be happy with that squad geordie, got something in there for everyone.

Very happy mate. To be fair I couldn't have argued if Fraser was in...as he has been quality also.

What I like though..is there is a much bigger number of forwards who can carry! We ALL agreed Lancasters focus on the No.8 as seemingly the only carrier was totally wrong.

Hopefully we'll really attack, and get through teams instead of ponderous inching forward..

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Jan 2016, 4:29 pm

With that squad I can only see Jones wanting to play with the ball in play for long periods and go through the phases trusting their basic skills

Beaumont and Clifford are very positive inclusions looking at how Jones will want his forwards to play. He has ball players in the forwards as well as throughout the backs.

Itoje and Launchbury are both really strong support runners with excellent hands. Similarly Mako, George, LCD, Thomas and Hill can carry very strongly and have good hands around contact.

With Farrell being considered at 12 he also has the option of kickers at either centre position with Farrell, Devoto and Daly. Expect a side who play very pragmatically in their own half and kick a lot of ball. Once they have got the ball to the half way line I reckon we will see them going through a lot of phases and keeping the ball in play. All things I am very excited about seeing from these players.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 4:31 pm

And im really please Ewers is in there aswell. A bruising physical player.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Jan 2016, 5:19 pm

I'm still to be convinced by Ewers. Liable to be excellent one week then invisible the next.

Still happy to see him selected though as it shows a clear desire to add more carriers to the pack and also build a squad with some players who offer different options when required.

Robshaw, Haskell, Clifford, Ewers, Billy and Beaumont offer a really interesting range of styles to use across the back row. I really hope that Kvesic gets an opportunity whilst there as a replacement though. After all our chat about needing a 7 who focuses on the breakdown, we arguably wouldn't have one at full strength!

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 13 Jan 2016, 5:39 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully we'll really attack, and get through teams instead of ponderous inching forward..
I was quite happy when we were moving ponderously forwards.  At least it wasn't side to side then kick away possession as if the ball was covered in STDs.  

Why do I find myself strangely apathetic at the choices in the backs, starting at 10.  To me (yes I am girding for the blowback), Ford seems decent with a lot of go forwards from the rest of the team, but doesn't create much, doesn't lead, and this season seems to have been figured out a bit.  Just a blue-eyed Pygmy.  Farrell?  Well, no excitement there either.  Yes, we have some speed in the backs, but this still smells more like potential than a cutting edge unit.  Hope I am wrong.  And we still are devoid of an inside Centre who strikes fear in the opposition.  Usually England 12s strike fear in England supporters.  The good news is Wiggly is no longer in the team so we might not kick possession away every time we have the ball.  Will be interesting to see Simpson get his chance.  

I feel a little better in the forwards.  for the Scotland match we do need to see a bit of a blend of youth and experience.  If we have virtually the same pack which got pushed around in the RWC, it will be somewhat disappointing.  Unless, of course, they are invigorated and dominate.  In which case I retract what I just wrote (though I have doubts).  This might be a bit early for Itoje and Paul Hill.  But hopefully they get some action and prove me wrong on that point too.

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Post by Exiledinborders Wed 13 Jan 2016, 5:53 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully we'll really attack, and get through teams instead of ponderous inching forward..
I was quite happy when we were moving ponderously forwards.  At least it wasn't side to side then kick away possession as if the ball was covered in STDs.  

Why do I find myself strangely apathetic at the choices in the backs, starting at 10.  To me (yes I am girding for the blowback), Ford seems decent with a lot of go forwards from the rest of the team, but doesn't create much, doesn't lead, and this season seems to have been figured out a bit.  Just a blue-eyed Pygmy.  Farrell?  Well, no excitement there either.  Yes, we have some speed in the backs, but this still smells more like potential than a cutting edge unit.  Hope I am wrong.  And we still are devoid of an inside Centre who strikes fear in the opposition.  Usually England 12s strike fear in England supporters.  The good news is Wiggly is no longer in the team so we might not kick possession away every time we have the ball.  Will be interesting to see Simpson get his chance.  

I feel a little better in the forwards.  for the Scotland match we do need to see a bit of a blend of youth and experience.  If we have virtually the same pack which got pushed around in the RWC, it will be somewhat disappointing.  Unless, of course, they are invigorated and dominate.  In which case I retract what I just wrote (though I have doubts).  This might be a bit early for Itoje and Paul Hill.  But hopefully they get some action and prove me wrong on that point too.
The good news is that for the summer tour we can look forward to Nathan Hughes at 8 and a centre pairing of Slade and Manu.

I think Hughes, Youngs, Farrell, Slade, Tuilagi starts to look tasty. When May is back and Nowell is not required on the wing he is an option at thirteen.

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Post by nathan Wed 13 Jan 2016, 6:11 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully we'll really attack, and get through teams instead of ponderous inching forward..
I was quite happy when we were moving ponderously forwards.  At least it wasn't side to side then kick away possession as if the ball was covered in STDs.  

Why do I find myself strangely apathetic at the choices in the backs, starting at 10.  To me (yes I am girding for the blowback), Ford seems decent with a lot of go forwards from the rest of the team, but doesn't create much, doesn't lead, and this season seems to have been figured out a bit.  Just a blue-eyed Pygmy.  Farrell?  Well, no excitement there either.  Yes, we have some speed in the backs, but this still smells more like potential than a cutting edge unit.  Hope I am wrong.  And we still are devoid of an inside Centre who strikes fear in the opposition.  Usually England 12s strike fear in England supporters.  The good news is Wiggly is no longer in the team so we might not kick possession away every time we have the ball.  Will be interesting to see Simpson get his chance.  

I feel a little better in the forwards.  for the Scotland match we do need to see a bit of a blend of youth and experience.  If we have virtually the same pack which got pushed around in the RWC, it will be somewhat disappointing.  Unless, of course, they are invigorated and dominate.  In which case I retract what I just wrote (though I have doubts).  This might be a bit early for Itoje and Paul Hill.  But hopefully they get some action and prove me wrong on that point too.
i think Ford is fine so long as the forwards do their job, which i think is the same as any other 10. Our forwards were fine before the RWC warm ups so hopefully they return to that level.

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Post by englandglory4ever Wed 13 Jan 2016, 6:23 pm

Eddie says he wants a good set piece. Clearly he was not impressed with what we had before Eddie. There are two personnel I've been particularly critical of and that's Tom Youngs and Graham Rowntree. Both have gone and hopefully replaced with infinitely more skilled/knowledgeable people. A world beating set piece requires complete accuracy at all times to function well. I expect the new coaches to be uber critical of anything other than complete accuracy.

Eddie only has 7 training sessions before Scotland but he's made a brilliant start in the little time he's had in my opinion. Now they've been given the chance the players need to, and must, step up to the plate.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 13 Jan 2016, 6:35 pm

nathan wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully we'll really attack, and get through teams instead of ponderous inching forward..
I was quite happy when we were moving ponderously forwards.  At least it wasn't side to side then kick away possession as if the ball was covered in STDs.  

Why do I find myself strangely apathetic at the choices in the backs, starting at 10.  To me (yes I am girding for the blowback), Ford seems decent with a lot of go forwards from the rest of the team, but doesn't create much, doesn't lead, and this season seems to have been figured out a bit.  Just a blue-eyed Pygmy.  Farrell?  Well, no excitement there either.  Yes, we have some speed in the backs, but this still smells more like potential than a cutting edge unit.  Hope I am wrong.  And we still are devoid of an inside Centre who strikes fear in the opposition.  Usually England 12s strike fear in England supporters.  The good news is Wiggly is no longer in the team so we might not kick possession away every time we have the ball.  Will be interesting to see Simpson get his chance.  

I feel a little better in the forwards.  for the Scotland match we do need to see a bit of a blend of youth and experience.  If we have virtually the same pack which got pushed around in the RWC, it will be somewhat disappointing.  Unless, of course, they are invigorated and dominate.  In which case I retract what I just wrote (though I have doubts).  This might be a bit early for Itoje and Paul Hill.  But hopefully they get some action and prove me wrong on that point too.
i think Ford is fine so long as the forwards do their job, which i think is the same as any other 10. Our forwards were fine before the RWC warm ups so hopefully they return to that level.
I don't want to make this about Ford, but in the Bath matches I have seen this year, he has been average, no better. Give me Andy Goode! Back from retirement!

I think Hughes could be a real game changer. He doesn't seem to get a quick start, but when running looks like an elephant in heat. I would not want to be in the way of that.

I agree the pack was fine before the RWC. Geordie and I have bounced that one back and forth for a while and we agree the pack was somehow detuned and depowered in the pre-RWC camp. But I would like to see the pack up it a but from where they were. Then it would be a real platform to launch from. Might create more space.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Wed 13 Jan 2016, 7:34 pm

I have to say that even as a Bath fan I'm not sure Ford is the best long term 10 for England. Don't get me wrong he is a very good player but I can't help but think Slade may well end up being our best option. If he was fit surely he would be at 12 for this 6N.

I like the squad, in particular the range of options in the pack. IC is still a worry but I'm glad he has gone for players who could one day fit the bill, rather than those who never will.

On the captain, do you think Tom Wood is still keen?!

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Jan 2016, 7:58 pm

Is Tom Wood the fan who had an argument with Dave Ward on twitter? I'm pretty sure he was a mascot at some of Englands RWC games. He didn't seem too keen on holding Robshaws hand when they ran out the tunnel for some reason though.  Wink

I agree about Slade having the most rounded skill set of our 10 options. He's a stronger goal kicker than Ford, as strong in defence as Farrell, cool headed and has excellent distribution. I reckon he's a better tactical kicker than both as well. As with much of Fords game his kicking is good going forward, however when kicking under pressure with a struggling pack he regularly lacks distance.

If we can give Ford a strong pack and potent backs then he's the most dangerous to get them moving though. His eye for a gap and the timing of passes is fantastic to watch at his best.

What do you think of Devoto being included Bathman? Any chance that it will pressure papa Fords hand to give him game time over Eastmond?

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Post by englandglory4ever Wed 13 Jan 2016, 8:05 pm

Burrell and Twelvetrees too accident prone at crucial times I guess. Seems like Eddie agrees with Lancaster on those two.

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Post by HongKongCherry Wed 13 Jan 2016, 8:26 pm

I was underwhelmed by Jones' appointment and his selection continues that theme. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

On a purely bias note I am flabbergasted Kvesic was only an injury cover. He's arguably the form player in the Jeff. Given Jones has said he doesn't want a 6 5 he has only selected one 7 as a backup. As a club over country man at least he'll feature for Glaws more with an added point to prove...
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Post by gregortree Wed 13 Jan 2016, 8:34 pm

Hello HKC...yes agreed. Kvesic was MoM vs Quins and vs his counterpart Cifford. I understood Jones was watching at Twickenham. I hope he can manage Kvesic properly and not mess with his confidence.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:03 pm

So does some of the things eddie says mean he sees Slade as a genuine challenger for the 10 spot when he returns?

I think Eddie has been quite Shrewd with his use of injury replacements aswell. Don't forget he only had 11 changes...he has made them, but also has used the injuries wisely. He can have a good look at a lot of players, when ordinarily he might not have seen half as many.

I don't believe now, that Kvesic for example, is just a cheap injury replacement.

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Post by DaveM Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:09 pm

I think it is an outstanding squad. It's definitely exceeded my expectations, and is full of players who have the potential to be really outstanding. I'm delighted that:

- Barritt has been dropped
- He's taken punt on Beaumont
- He's taken a chance on Devoto (potentially very far sighted given his limited game time at his current club)
- He's got lots of kicking and play-making options in the centres
- It looks like he's decided t make Clifford his project and to develop him as a 7.

I'm satisfied with the players he's dropped.

I'm disappointed that:

- Ford is in and Cipriani is out. Ford has talent but I'm increasingly unconvinced he is the long-term answer. Slade might yet specialise as a 10, and also Alex Lozowski has signed for Saracens - I wouldn't be surprised to see him feature in the 2018 Six Nations as I think he's an amazing talent.

So overall the best EPS squad ever, and a statement of intent in terms of both how he wants us to play and in terms of selecting based on talent and potential. I hope he chucks in the youngsters against Scotland and sees how they do.

Vunipola
George
Hill
Itoje
Kruis
Robshaw
Clifford
Vunipola
Youngs
Farrell
Nowell
Devoto
Daly
Watson
Brown

Hartley
Marler
Cole
Launchbury
Beaumont (I wouldn't normally want an 8 on the bench, but he's a game changer)
Care
Ford
Joseph (great bench option as he can cover OC and wing).

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Post by Bathman_in_London Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:31 pm

king Carlos, you would hope Devoto will really benefit from being in the set up but if he is leaving as reported, he may well spend a few months holding tackle bags rather than more game time!


Regarding the injury replacements, I think they are a red herring in many ways as it just a way of playing the system to have a larger squad than the eps allows. I don't seriously think Kvesic will be sent home the minute Ewers completes a training session.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:42 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:king Carlos, you would hope Devoto will really benefit from being in the set up but if he is leaving as reported, he may well spend a few months holding tackle bags rather than more game time!


Regarding the injury replacements, I think they are a red herring in many ways as it just a way of playing the system to have a larger squad than the eps allows. I don't seriously think Kvesic will be sent home the minute Ewers completes a training session.

Yes that's my thoughts having heard a few things from Eddie etc.

Great that both of them are being looked at though. Kvesic and Ewers (when fit) . But also taking the time to look at Clifford...who looks a real class act.

I'm still going to remain calm though and not get overly excited .

Cant believe Mark Wilson never made the team though.... Whistle

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:45 pm

Also...many are questioning Haskells selection.

We have nearly all said that, in a basic role Haskell is hugely effective. I wonder if Jones and Borthwick will look to use Haskell in that method. Just a power machine...tackle tackle tackle, carry hard, carry hard, carry hard.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:47 pm

Give cheap penalty away, run into post.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 9:53 pm

Well yes theres always that I guess.

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Post by blackcanelion Wed 13 Jan 2016, 10:15 pm

Possibly been said before, so excuse me if it's a repeat. Haven't got time to read through comments. Me thinks there will be a more dynamic approach. key points from Jones: A strong set piece and ability to move the ball. Players will need to be fitter, faster and spend less time on the ground. I think the last point is the most interesting. For me this is the major change in culture for England. It's more in line with SH work at the ruck. It may take some time to get right but interesting times. I think of the selections are as much about bringing about change. I suspect Haskell is one of these. I wonder if this is about bringing in a player to has played in a number of environments and understands what Jones is looking for, and can help change the style.


Last edited by blackcanelion on Thu 14 Jan 2016, 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 13 Jan 2016, 10:21 pm

NO TOM YOUNG'S? really surprised about this. I wander if this will bve the squad from now on.

Did not think Haskell would of been selected. Thought Tom Wood would have been in and Haskell out.

Nice too see Ashton back in the squad, lets hope he can keep hos club form going into the 6ns ( scoring trys) i mean.

Can Eddie Jones call up any of the dropped players if their is a state of injuries?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Jan 2016, 10:27 pm

The thing about Haskell is he can be hugely dynamic when he is on form.

Hes a beast of a tackler and a beast of a carrier..unlike the solid graft Wood.
That approach fits in more to what Eddie will be after ...ie players who can make things happen, and maybe Jones thinks he can get the best out of him.

Every England fan has seen games where Haskell has been immense....and on that form he would be one of the first names on the teamsheet....but the biggest issue with Haskell has always been...consistency.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 13 Jan 2016, 11:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:The thing about Haskell is he can be hugely dynamic when he is on form.

Hes a beast of a tackler and a beast of a carrier..unlike the solid graft Wood.
That approach fits in more to what Eddie will be after ...ie players who can make things happen, and maybe Jones thinks he can get the best out of him.

Every England fan has seen games where Haskell has been immense....and on that form he would be one of the first names on the teamsheet....but the biggest issue with Haskell has always been...consistency.

When I first saw Haskell play for England I thought he would turn into a special player. It didn't happen. He has had some decent moments though

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 13 Jan 2016, 11:53 pm

We'll never know the answer, but I do wonder what the EPS might have looked like if the old team had stayed on.

The only player I think almost certainly would have stayed is Tom Youngs.

Given the poor World Cup showing, the old lot would likely have rung some changes. While Itoje may well have got the nod, I doubt Beaumont would have been in the running. Youngs aside, the front row choices and locks follow a similar pattern. I think one of Morgan, Haskell & Wood would have gone but not two. In the backs, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Watson, Goode and Brown are all familiar, and Care may well have won back his spot, while Ashton probably wouldn't have. Daly was likely, but hard to see Hill and Devoto. Perhaps one, but not both.

I suppose, on balance, I don't think this EPS looks a million miles away from what Lancaster et al might have considered. The real test will be to see whether the squad tweaks Jones has introduced, coupled with a new training set-up and gameplan, can make us greater than the sum of our parts again.

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Post by DaveM Wed 13 Jan 2016, 11:59 pm

I think there are more changes here than SL would have made. There has been a bit of a cull of some of the more experienced players who were never going to be world class in future.

However, this is still just an acceleration of the recent trend. The squad is now completely dominated by players who've come through the academy and age group system (although I don't remember Beaumont playing for England at age-group level).

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Post by lostinwales Thu 14 Jan 2016, 12:08 am

I don't know if Morgan is gone forever, but he has to show better form than he has. I suspect Wood probably is

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Post by king_carlos Thu 14 Jan 2016, 12:18 am

Jones likes his forwards to have the ability to change the game in many facets of the game. On top form Morgan is exceptional going forward but rarely offers much else even at his best. For a man his size he rarely throws his weight behind a tackle, his tackle is usually low and he has very little influence in rucks. Add the that a lack of use in the line-out and he is a bit of a fair weather player. Excellent at what he does but doesn't do much else.

Billy V now offers a very good work rate in attack and defence. He has started using his bulk more and more in the tackle, especially around the fringes and holding up big runners to slow ball down or look for the turnover. He is also having an increasing impact in rucks where someone seems to have told him something on the lines of 'forget all this low centre of gravity, stocky open side nonsense, if you get all 20 stone of you over the ball you take some shifting'.

Beaumont is a cracking addition I reckon. He's a real ball player with excellent hands who can link well with the backs. He's also a great support runner because of his pace and the lines he runs. It's indicative of Jones liking the ball to stay in play for a long time. Doing that requires good basic skills across the forwards and guys who can take the ball to the line then throw a pass.

Morgan isn't completely out the reckoning. His conversation with Jones about being dropped wont have been complicated though. Do more, do it better and do it more consistently, hopefully he listens and proves a point.

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Post by DaveM Thu 14 Jan 2016, 12:19 am

Really interesting stuff from Jones:

Jones Video

Two points in particular:

- He obviously had wanted to try Slade at 12. I'd say Devoto is the most similar player to Slade in the squad.
- He wants to develop a 7 over the next year or so. Clifford seems to be the first player to be given that chance.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 14 Jan 2016, 12:31 am

If Clifford starts at 7 then I hope that Kvesic is given a shot on the bench. I reckon given a bit of time for both to develop that Clifford at 6 partnered by Kvesic or Fraser could be a fantastic flanker pairing. Given how industrious Kvesic and Fraser are it would allow Clifford to play that roaming role he's well suited to.

As the tournament goes on I'd like to see both given a chance together towards the end of a game with one coming off the bench. With a bench of Marler, George, Hill, Itoje and Kvesic we could look at finishing a game with a pack such as below. That is something I'd love to see as a game breaks up.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola

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Post by DaveM Thu 14 Jan 2016, 12:55 am

king_carlos wrote:That is something I'd love to see as a game breaks up.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola

Surely Vunipola at LH under the circumstances? In any case, it is difficult not to be excited about the future when you look at the talent available.

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Post by Gwlad Thu 14 Jan 2016, 1:38 am

lostinwales wrote:I don't know if Morgan is gone forever, but he has to show better form than he has. I suspect Wood probably is


I am surprised by this…is it down to post RWC stuff he got involved in or because Eddie wants Robshaw at 6 and has haskell to cover?

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Post by king_carlos Thu 14 Jan 2016, 2:50 am

DaveM wrote:
king_carlos wrote:That is something I'd love to see as a game breaks up.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola

Surely Vunipola at LH under the circumstances? In any case, it is difficult not to be excited about the future when you look at the talent available.

On current form Mako should definitely start. Thinking about the side as the game breaks up and subs come on we should then be looking to bring him off with Marler available as well. I don't like scripted subs but bottom line with Mako is that even if he is playing an absolute stormer he will struggle to keep his best up over 80 minutes. The blokes is listed at 5'11'' and weighs over 20 stone after all!

I'm also interested to see what Marler can do fresh as the game breaks up. Early in his career he was an excellent ball carrier and still does well in that regard for Quins. Hopefully bringing him as the opposition tire will allow him to offer himself more in the loose.

Seeing how Mako does starting should be interesting. Since the Lions tour he has only started 4 tests. 3 of those were the Italy drubbing a couple of Six Nations ago, RWC warm-up against France and Uraguay at the world cup. With all due respects none of those are the greatest test he will be put under.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 14 Jan 2016, 2:53 am

Gwlad wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I don't know if Morgan is gone forever, but he has to show better form than he has. I suspect Wood probably is


I am surprised by this…is it down to post RWC stuff he got involved in or because Eddie wants Robshaw at 6 and has haskell to cover?

Morgan still hasn't fully got over the leg break, and as stated above is a bit one dimensional. Wood because there are better options coming through

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Post by B91212 Thu 14 Jan 2016, 4:23 am

Not much being said about the lineout. I don't think either Launchbury or Itoje have run a lineout before plus neither are great jumpers. Also the backrow picks are not standouts either in that department (Robshaw is okay but not outstanding, unsure about Clifford). Based on that I can see Kruis starting and Lawes in the 23, even based on current form. May be another reason why Hartley starts ahead of George if fit.

I too would like to see Mako start at LH. Tell him to run himself into the ground for 45-50 minutes and then Marler come on and lend a bit of experience to what could potentially be a pretty inexperienced front row finishing the game (assuming George and Hall will be on the replacements bench for the Scotland game).

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 14 Jan 2016, 5:02 am

You've got to think that Mako will start, he needs testing as he's in great form but always struggled for England in the scrum.

I think it's great that Paul Hill is involved as the lad is going to be our TH mainstay for many a years to come. I seem to remember the cupboard being pretty bare when Cole broke through so it'll be good to manage Hill a bit more and allow him to develop. He's an excellent technical scrummager(although may lack a bit of power at 20) but is great around the park and has some gas for a big man, he's a real exciting prospect.

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Post by Gwlad Thu 14 Jan 2016, 5:19 am

B91212 wrote:Not much being said about the lineout. I don't think either Launchbury or Itoje have run a lineout before plus neither are great jumpers. Also the backrow picks are not standouts either in that department (Robshaw is okay but not outstanding, unsure about Clifford). Based on that I can see Kruis starting and Lawes in the 23, even based on current form. May be another reason why Hartley starts ahead of George if fit.

I too would like to see Mako start at LH. Tell him to run himself into the ground for 45-50 minutes and then Marler come on and lend a bit of experience to what could potentially be a pretty inexperienced front row finishing the game (assuming George and Hall will be on the replacements bench for the Scotland game).

Beaumont is apparently a strong line out option. Don't know much about his provenance though.

In Hartley he has probably the best thrower playing in the NH and if he does make him skipper i think that might just be what Hartley needs to cure him of the temperament issues.

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Post by eirebilly Thu 14 Jan 2016, 7:02 am

Hartley has had his indiscipline issues at club level (which by default has cost him and England Internationally) but I struggle to remember when he actually let England down during an International match with his indiscipline?

Hartley is a player that thrives on a bit of aggro and when forced to change that, his form drops. I am not so sure he is captain material but he is still England's best option there.
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Post by jamesandimac Thu 14 Jan 2016, 8:42 am

From Jones' interview in the Telegraph it would appear that he is considering Haskell as the stop gap 7 who can do the primary job of winning first phase ball that he was talking about. Seems as though he's putting a lot of trust in the opinions of George Smith when it comes to the 7 position.

On that then it looks like he'll employ Robshaw at 6, Haskell at 7 and Vunipola at 8. Not much change from last years 6Ns.

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Post by yappysnap Thu 14 Jan 2016, 8:44 am

Thank god that all the misplaced Barritt hype has come to nothing. Dodged a bullet there.

Otherwise happy with the squad. Surprised about Clifford, part of me thinks it's too early for him to play, but the other part thinks he'd do well if he did.

Really surprised about Kvesic being injury cover. To me he's the form EQ flanker and a 7 so not sure what Jones is thinking there.

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