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Post by Guest82 Thu 07 Jan 2016, 4:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

Anyone keeping an eye on these?

Rafa just struggled past Kuznetsov, yet looked brilliant yesterday against Haase.

Djokovic a couple of routine wins (not seen any of it, but scorelines suggest picking up where he left off)

Kyle Edmund into quarter finals and plays Berdych later.

Bedene with a good chance of making semi in Chennai (plays quarter final against a wildcard I've never heard of (Ramanathan))

Federer routined Kamke.

Dimitrov picking up a few good wins - plays Fed next.

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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 9:12 am

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:New year, same outcome. Hard to see anything troubling or dislodging the established order.
Sadly true. I see nothing more than usual from the long standing 2nd order, though I was impressed by Thiems game, he's just very raw.

Everyone knows I think Federer is wonderful but he really shouldn't be able to do what he's doing at 34.

I like Thiem too. Has a very eye catching compelling game.

I hope that what Federer is doing is something that can offer some comfort of hope to those just setting out to at least get in striking distance of the top 20. A long shot I know. Trading one man dominances for another is underwhelming. The need for competition couldn't be any stronger than it is now.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun 10 Jan 2016, 9:44 am

I dont think Nadal is a threat at the AO. His level is so up and down even vs low ranked players, dont even need to talk about Djoko who's in a league of his own.

Djoko's performance in the final, I think not even an on fire Stan, or Delpo, or Fed, could counter that, maybe just wins more games than Nadal. Sometimes when a player plays that way, no one could beat him. Its just like Nadal at MC 2010 or FO2008, or Fed at Cincy 2009/2012, just too good!

Over a BO5, perhaps its harder for Djoko to sustain that level so maybe a hard hitter like Stan could still stand a chance.

I like what I saw of Tomic and Kygrios; I feel they may be ready to do some damage at their home slam this year. Thiem and Coric are still too inexperienced, maybe another two years time and they will be ready to challenge the top guys.

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Post by bogbrush Sun 10 Jan 2016, 9:58 am

At the AO there's only Murray or a red-hot Stan who can trouble him. On this evidence Federer has no chance, he looks so slow!
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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 10:00 am

The throw of the racquet shows how off he is today!

Depressing.

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Post by lags72 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 10:09 am

Not sure he actually threw the racquet - he hardly had enough enthusiasm to do that. More of a disinterested drop from his hand. Quite a rarity all the same, struggling to remember the last time ....

But I know what you mean lk. Clearly off his game, having performed pretty well en route to the Final. And also sweating much more than I can ever remember.

Raonic all set for a revenge win after last year's Brisbane - and deservedly so on today's showing so far.

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Post by sirfredperry Sun 10 Jan 2016, 11:11 am

Raonic wins 4 and 4. An excellent win for him. I thought he played really well in last year's Brisbane final but then got injured and didn't get back to his best for a while.
Twould be good to see Coric beating Stan the Man later today but the teenager had a three-hour match yesterday and surely won't be able to topple the Swiss.

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Post by bogbrush Sun 10 Jan 2016, 12:43 pm

I know it's paranoia, I know it's overreacting, I know it won't be........ but sweating profusely and off his game coming into an Australian Open?

8 years ago it turned out badly.
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Post by temporary21 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 12:58 pm

Its not Mono, probably because hes 34 and its Brisbane. Its just ridiculously hot for someone that age to be playing that intensely. Hell be wanting mostly night matches at the AO though

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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 1:17 pm

bogbrush wrote:I know it's paranoia, I know it's overreacting, I know it won't be........ but sweating profusely and off his game coming into an Australian Open?

8 years ago it turned out badly.

I'd rather this level of performance is out of his system now than happening at the AO. There is some comfort in the fact Raonic wasn't a million miles above his level.

It speaks volumes on Federers performance to lose like that. Like Nadals performance in a sense that it can't get any worse than that. Or so I hope anyway.

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Post by lags72 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 1:57 pm

I think it's about the best, most consistent level of play I've seen from Raonic over a complete match (albeit only a two setter). With Federer so off-colour and missing regularly - alarmingly at times - it looked like an even heavier loss was on the cards. But the odd bit of old magic, as so often, kept things just about respectable for Fed.

Assuming it is nothing more serious than flu, seemingly contracted from the kids, this reasonably impressive run to the Final against some decent challengers should prove to be good AO preparation for Fed. And for Raonic, the long-awaited victory is a serious confidence-booster.

After the Brisbane match, Eurosport showed a re-run of (most of) the Qatar Final. I thought Djokovic was scarily good but Rafa actually played very well at times. Hard to say just how far he might go in Melbourne, but I do wonder whether his game has gradually been restored to a level adequate to get past most guys - not least when you think that few can hope to put him under the sort of pressure that Novak does - and indeed has been doing for some time now.

What does it profit a man like Rafa if he can slug his way to Finals, only to then fall with ever-growing regularity to the star man of the current generation  ....... chin

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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 2:16 pm

Like Federer with Nadal, Nadal is finding with Djokovic. The realistic possibility of a Slam win is for his nemesis to be out of the way, though the US Open 2014 showed that not to be the case when others could equally have a blinder on court.

Whilst some fans might find some poetic justice in Nadal finding his kryptonite, I find it so limiting.

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Post by HM Murdock Sun 10 Jan 2016, 2:20 pm

temporary21 wrote:Its not Mono, probably because hes 34 and its Brisbane. Its just ridiculously hot for someone that age to be playing that intensely. Hell be wanting mostly night matches at the AO though
He'll undoubtedly get them.

I don't think there's any part of the globe where he doesn't headline!

Although I doubt even Federer considers a title run at Melbourne to be likely. Those courts don't lend themselves to his current game at all.

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Post by temporary21 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 3:03 pm

5 Sets and the heat, with a bouncy court is a major stumbling block I guess. If fed goes in Novak's half he may get less night matches... plus Novak as well

Nadal has comfort in that hes got 23 wins over Novak, he knows his game can do it if he plays well. Novak in this current form looks kryptonite to everybody though that's for sure.

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Post by lags72 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 3:34 pm

I just think it's a somewhat depressing reflection on the the current depth of the men's game that we have reached the point whereby :

a) one player is moving increasingly beyond the reach of all others in the rankings, and
b) the 'upcoming' generation of younger players are rated as having less chance to win a Slam than a 34 year old for whom retirement beckons ever closer

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Post by temporary21 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 3:48 pm

Feels a lot like 2004 the more I think about it

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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 3:49 pm

I concur with that lags.

It's not just the lack of new slam winners, it's the lack of new Masters winners and even to a small extent at 500 level.

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Post by socal1976 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 4:00 pm

bogbrush wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:New year, same outcome. Hard to see anything troubling or dislodging the established order.
Sadly true. I see nothing more than usual from the long standing 2nd order, though I was impressed by Thiems game, he's just very raw.

Everyone knows I think Federer is wonderful but he really shouldn't be able to do what he's doing at 34.

Why? I mean for many years we have seen the avg age of top players moving back we even saw hints of it with Agassi winning multiple slams passed 30. Novak is winning multiple slams and dominating at an age many years older than Mac, wilander, Borg, and Becker were through as slam threats. Changes in modern science, technology, and training have allowed players to maintain longer. This doesn't mean new stars won't come up it just means it will take them longer, but conversely they to will also have this infrastructure of sports medicine and training to keep them competitive later in their careers.

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Post by summerblues Sun 10 Jan 2016, 4:05 pm

Like 2004? More like the opposite of 2004. In 2004, players #1,2,3,4,7,9 were all from the same generation, and all about 22-24 year old.

Djokovic is now 28, and he is the second youngest player in top 10.

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Post by socal1976 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 4:34 pm

summerblues wrote:Like 2004?  More like the opposite of 2004.  In 2004, players #1,2,3,4,7,9 were all from the same generation, and all about 22-24 year old.

Djokovic is now 28, and he is the second youngest player in top 10.

Yes so you still don't answer my question why it is bad that the stars are hanging around longer? We hear it is awful why? Fed is still the biggest draw and I enjoy watching stars I have watched and enjoyed being able to replicate good tennis as long as possible.

Would you have enjoyed tennis more if Federer stopped winning 27 and was retired by 28? This criticism to me has always been a head scratcher.

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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 4:45 pm

It's not the older stars hanging around that's the issue. It's the lack of breakthrough youngsters going beyond the glass ceiling. For example Dimitrov and Tomic being examples of those who have yet to really build on those breakthrough moments. Kyrgios looks like one who's going to blow his talent on being a dipstick. 

Hoping Thiem and Chung might have differing fortunes then those mentioned. 

I am not saying success has to be instant, just that when that torch passing moment comes, that the new bearer is worthy enough to carry it onwards.

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Post by socal1976 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 5:04 pm

Ok LK, the rise of other stars is inevitable. We may have a doldrums period but sooner than most expect worthy greats do show up. I remember when Pete and Andre were aging and even though Hewitt was number 1 a lot of people then thought I was one of them that these players coming after them just weren't good enough. No one in the early 2000s expected that fed would break every record and become the most popular tennis player of all time. Even now nobody thought Djoko would carry the mantle this well either or all of sudden he might challenge some of the records he is challenging. So what you want is inevitable, and will happen, and still no one has told me why it would have been better for tennis if Fed had a Mac, wilander, or Borg style career trajectory and let's say retired in 2008 or 09

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Post by lags72 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 5:11 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:It's not the older stars hanging around that's the issue. It's the lack of breakthrough youngsters going beyond the glass ceiling...................................

...............................................



+ 1

I think this - in a nutshell - is the really depressing aspect.

No hope of youthful breakthroughs. No new sensations. No Beckers, Borgs, Wilanders to be seen. Or even anyone a few years older than those teenage stars.

I guess the next batch of winners will eventually make their mark not by beating those currently at the top - but by waiting for them to retire !

Meanwhile, all credit to Novak for cleaning up and filling his boots (+ bank account).

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Post by HM Murdock Sun 10 Jan 2016, 5:17 pm

Let's see where we are after AO before getting too down on the state of tennis.

A win for anyone other Djokovic will add some spice to the proceedings. Even a tough win for Djokovic where he gets pushed the limit will be OK.

The only real downer for me would be a routine Djokovic win, with the standard swatting aside of Berdych or Ferrer in the QF, a passive grind win in the SF and then a comfortable win in the final.

We've seen that enough times now.

I can live without new faces if the old faces are telling a new story.

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Post by lags72 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 5:28 pm

HM Murdock wrote:

.......................................

I can live without new faces if the old faces are telling a new story.

Hmm. I'm not so sure myself.

Realistically .....are there any new stories to be heard from the old faces that wouldn't - by necessity - involve some new faces ........?? ...... chin

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Post by TRuffin Sun 10 Jan 2016, 5:46 pm

bogbrush wrote:I know it's paranoia, I know it's overreacting, I know it won't be........ but sweating profusely and off his game coming into an Australian Open?

8 years ago it turned out badly.
Fed had the flu at beginning of week- his whole family did. That's why the requested Thursday start, the rumors he might pull out. He clearly felt better and actually played excellent at times, but we all know how a bad cold or flu will sap your energy. It's prob just caught up to him, but I saw nothing that indicates it's more than just the after effects of illness. He'll be ready for Ao.

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Post by socal1976 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 6:03 pm

lags72 wrote:
HM Murdock wrote:

.......................................

I can live without new faces if the old faces are telling a new story.

Hmm. I'm not so sure myself.

Realistically .....are there any new stories to be heard from the old faces that wouldn't - by necessity - involve some new faces ........?? ...... chin

Not necessarily if old faces start to break records and attain achievements that are historically significant you therefore would have a new story with an old face, ie like Serena looking for the CYGS. An old face but the excitement of her achieving something that had not been achieved in a generation.

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Post by Guest Sun 10 Jan 2016, 6:06 pm

socal1976 wrote:Ok LK, the rise of other stars is inevitable. We may have a doldrums period but sooner than most expect worthy greats do show up. I remember when Pete and Andre were aging and even though Hewitt was number 1 a lot of people then thought I was one of them that these players coming after them just weren't good enough. No one in the early 2000s expected that fed would break every record and become the most popular tennis player of all time. Even now nobody thought Djoko would carry the mantle this well either or all of sudden he might challenge some of the records he is challenging. So what you want is inevitable, and will happen, and still no one has told me why it would have been better for tennis if Fed had a Mac, wilander, or Borg style career trajectory and let's say retired in 2008 or 09

But it's not inevitable though is it? We are used to greats hitting 27-28 and the new guard starts showing the promise to carry the torch onwards when the old guard vanishes. Say if Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Murray and Stan retired tomorrow. I don't think anyone could predict a Masters winner let alone a Slam one. 

The chasm between Djokovic and the rest is scary. The chasm between Murray, Federer and Stan and the rest is even more scarier! It's almost like if a youngster makes an impact, it becomes like a false start because the race never gets started afterwards. 

I get what you say with Pete and Andre, but the guys that came after weren't bad were they? Wink

I like healthy competition. Keeps things fresh.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 10 Jan 2016, 6:35 pm

Perhaps it just says how good Novak is that youngsters aren't breaking through - and same to a lesser degree to the other top players. The youngsters just are not in the same class.

They may yet still become greats of the sport though as the top players of the here and now perhaps have three or four years left in them and then what? You'd presume the slams become open shop so the likes of Dimi and Raonic may then hoover up slams to elevate their status. We shall see.


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Post by socal1976 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 6:36 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Ok LK, the rise of other stars is inevitable. We may have a doldrums period but sooner than most expect worthy greats do show up. I remember when Pete and Andre were aging and even though Hewitt was number 1 a lot of people then thought I was one of them that these players coming after them just weren't good enough. No one in the early 2000s expected that fed would break every record and become the most popular tennis player of all time. Even now nobody thought Djoko would carry the mantle this well either or all of sudden he might challenge some of the records he is challenging. So what you want is inevitable, and will happen, and still no one has told me why it would have been better for tennis if Fed had a Mac, wilander, or Borg style career trajectory and let's say retired in 2008 or 09

But it's not inevitable though is it? We are used to greats hitting 27-28 and the new guard starts showing the promise to carry the torch onwards when the old guard vanishes. Say if Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Murray and Stan retired tomorrow. I don't think anyone could predict a Masters winner let alone a Slam one. 

The chasm between Djokovic and the rest is scary. The chasm between Murray, Federer and Stan and the rest is even more scarier! It's almost like if a youngster makes an impact, it becomes like a false start because the race never gets started afterwards. 

I get what you say with Pete and Andre, but the guys that came after weren't bad were they? Wink

I like healthy competition. Keeps things fresh.

Yes it is because to date I can't think of a modern big money sport not go through a similar progression. There is going to be a drop off when fed and Nadal leave the game that is inevitable like a hangover on New Year's Day. You just don't replace talented like that. But whether it happens in five months or a few years there certainly will be new worthy champions. Even the dark ages of the late 90s and early to mid two thousands it was clear that eventually someone worthy like Fed would come along. I think some of the young guys have all the tools they just aren't mentally there. Kyrgios for example is as flashy a talent as you could want in a tennis player as long as he figures out how to manage himself and stop being a dumbass he could be a highly watchable champion, my point is the in the long run even if this generation fails there will be a next wave of worthy stars, and probably faster than we think right now.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun 10 Jan 2016, 6:57 pm

He shouldn't have been allowed to do it two years ago

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Post by temporary21 Sun 10 Jan 2016, 7:38 pm

Maybe were too used to breakout starts coming in their early 20s or even teens.
In nearly all sports nowadays guys hit their peak in their mid to late 20's

Is it maybe possible that the "younger generation" is older than we expect.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun 10 Jan 2016, 7:50 pm

I think they have too much too live up to.. it is not just about age

It is going to be some  way off yet before we see anything like those that have gone before them

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 10 Jan 2016, 8:09 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:I think they have too much too live up to.. it is not just about age

It is going to be some  way off yet before we see anything like those that have gone before them

Precisely. Legends don't grow on trees. I cannot understand why people feel that youngsters should be walking onto court and managing to dish out beatings to legends. If they ain't of the same calibre it ain't happening.
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Post by HM Murdock Mon 11 Jan 2016, 8:52 am

The issue is not that younger players are failing to challenge the likes of Djokovic.

The issue is that they haven't even managed to displace Berdych (30yo), Ferrer (33yo), Gasquet (29yo) or Tsonga (30yo) from the top 10.

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Post by Guest Mon 11 Jan 2016, 9:45 am

Someone gets it Smile

Challenging the higher echelon of the game will occur hopefully once consistency of matching and beating the lesser mortals.

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Post by bogbrush Mon 11 Jan 2016, 11:26 am

socal1976 wrote:
summerblues wrote:Like 2004?  More like the opposite of 2004.  In 2004, players #1,2,3,4,7,9 were all from the same generation, and all about 22-24 year old.

Djokovic is now 28, and he is the second youngest player in top 10.

Yes so you still don't answer my question why it is bad that the stars are hanging around longer? We hear it is awful why? Fed is still the biggest draw and I enjoy watching stars I have watched and enjoyed being able to replicate good tennis as long as possible.

Would you have enjoyed tennis more if Federer stopped winning 27 and was retired by 28? This criticism to me has always been a head scratcher.
I'd have enjoyed tennis more if better players had come along and deposed him, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray. And as Murdoch says, failing to depose Berdych, Ferrer, etc. is a disaster.

But then I suppose they are all the best "best of the rest" of all time as well?
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Post by bogbrush Mon 11 Jan 2016, 11:28 am

socal1976 wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Ok LK, the rise of other stars is inevitable. We may have a doldrums period but sooner than most expect worthy greats do show up. I remember when Pete and Andre were aging and even though Hewitt was number 1 a lot of people then thought I was one of them that these players coming after them just weren't good enough. No one in the early 2000s expected that fed would break every record and become the most popular tennis player of all time. Even now nobody thought Djoko would carry the mantle this well either or all of sudden he might challenge some of the records he is challenging. So what you want is inevitable, and will happen, and still no one has told me why it would have been better for tennis if Fed had a Mac, wilander, or Borg style career trajectory and let's say retired in 2008 or 09

But it's not inevitable though is it? We are used to greats hitting 27-28 and the new guard starts showing the promise to carry the torch onwards when the old guard vanishes. Say if Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Murray and Stan retired tomorrow. I don't think anyone could predict a Masters winner let alone a Slam one. 

The chasm between Djokovic and the rest is scary. The chasm between Murray, Federer and Stan and the rest is even more scarier! It's almost like if a youngster makes an impact, it becomes like a false start because the race never gets started afterwards. 

I get what you say with Pete and Andre, but the guys that came after weren't bad were they? Wink

I like healthy competition. Keeps things fresh.

Yes it is because to date I can't think of a modern big money sport not go through a similar progression. There is going to be a drop off when fed and Nadal leave the game that is inevitable like a hangover on New Year's Day. You just don't replace talented like that. But whether it happens in five months or a few years there certainly will be new worthy champions. Even the dark ages of the late 90s and early to mid two thousands it was clear that eventually someone worthy like Fed would come along. I think some of the young guys have all the tools they just aren't mentally there. Kyrgios for example is as flashy a talent as you could want in a tennis player as long as he figures out how to manage himself and stop being a dumbass he could be a highly watchable champion, my point is the in the long run even if this generation fails there will be a next wave of worthy stars, and probably faster than we think right now.
We've already had a failed generation (the 22-26 year olds), now we're despairing of the next one after that but it's ok because there might be one after that. Is that the idea?
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Post by lags72 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 11:59 am

Don't despair bogbrush !!

Someone could break through at any time. Literally.

I mean..... we only have to look at the players who occupied the top ranking spots back in 2008, to remind ourselves just how dramatically things have changed on the men's tour over the last eight years or so.

Way back then, those spots were occupied by the likes of Djokovic Nadal, Federer, Murray and Ferrer. But then a whole host of fresh young stars* began making their mark on the scene and gradually swept aside the old guard.

Fast forward to today ....and it's a totally different world, with those spots now occupied by the likes of er....Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray and Wawrinka.

*(I won't name them now because there were just so many ....would hate to leave anyone out by mistake....)


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Post by prostaff85 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 1:30 pm

2008 was the first year when the "big four" first occupied the top four spots in the year-end rankings.
That happened five years in a row, and since 2013 only one of the big four temporarily dropped out (Federer in 2013, Murray in 2014 and Nadal in 2015) - I would argue mainly due to (comeback from) injury.
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Post by prostaff85 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 1:32 pm

Is it Djokovic' turn in 2016?!
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Post by dummy_half Mon 11 Jan 2016, 1:33 pm

HM Murdock wrote:The issue is not that younger players are failing to challenge the likes of Djokovic.

The issue is that they haven't even managed to displace Berdych (30yo), Ferrer (33yo), Gasquet (29yo) or Tsonga (30yo) from the top 10.


This is the big point - only Del Potro and Nishi of the 22-27 generation have really established themselves in the top 10, and unfortunately Del Potro has been essentially lost to injury. Del P may have made Murray's level, but I doubt would have had the consistency to match the big 3, while Nishi is a lower half of the top 10 player. I do have some hopes for the younger generation - watched Thiem against Fed the other day, and he has a lot of good aspects to his game but needs a bit of time to develop, and I think Kyrgios (if he can keep his head screwed on) could have a career like Safin or Stan - streaky but very good at times.

Next three years will undoubtedly see the end of Federer, and I suspect of Rafa and Stan as significant contenders, and then it will be interesting to see whether anyone else can step up and really challenge a 31 year old Djokovic and Murray

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Post by Jahu Mon 11 Jan 2016, 1:39 pm

I always told LF that Raonic is good Laugh kiss

But Djoko trashing Nadal in that style, is a Historic win for Djoko, total de-motivation for Nadal's ever lasting recovery Laugh
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Post by socal1976 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 3:42 pm

bogbrush wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Ok LK, the rise of other stars is inevitable. We may have a doldrums period but sooner than most expect worthy greats do show up. I remember when Pete and Andre were aging and even though Hewitt was number 1 a lot of people then thought I was one of them that these players coming after them just weren't good enough. No one in the early 2000s expected that fed would break every record and become the most popular tennis player of all time. Even now nobody thought Djoko would carry the mantle this well either or all of sudden he might challenge some of the records he is challenging. So what you want is inevitable, and will happen, and still no one has told me why it would have been better for tennis if Fed had a Mac, wilander, or Borg style career trajectory and let's say retired in 2008 or 09

But it's not inevitable though is it? We are used to greats hitting 27-28 and the new guard starts showing the promise to carry the torch onwards when the old guard vanishes. Say if Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Murray and Stan retired tomorrow. I don't think anyone could predict a Masters winner let alone a Slam one. 

The chasm between Djokovic and the rest is scary. The chasm between Murray, Federer and Stan and the rest is even more scarier! It's almost like if a youngster makes an impact, it becomes like a false start because the race never gets started afterwards. 

I get what you say with Pete and Andre, but the guys that came after weren't bad were they? Wink

I like healthy competition. Keeps things fresh.

Yes it is because to date I can't think of a modern big money sport not go through a similar progression. There is going to be a drop off when fed and Nadal leave the game that is inevitable like a hangover on New Year's Day. You just don't replace talented like that. But whether it happens in five months or a few years there certainly will be new worthy champions. Even the dark ages of the late 90s and early to mid two thousands it was clear that eventually someone worthy like Fed would come along. I think some of the young guys have all the tools they just aren't mentally there. Kyrgios for example is as flashy a talent as you could want in a tennis player as long as he figures out how to manage himself and stop being a dumbass he could be a highly watchable champion, my point is the in the long run even if this generation fails there will be a next wave of worthy stars, and probably faster than we think right now.
We've already had a failed generation (the 22-26 year olds), now we're despairing of the next one after that but it's ok because there might be one after that. Is that the idea?

Well considering that some people considered Djokovic a failure in January of 2011 who was a one slam wonder, with an MTO problem, who had one mono-induced slam to his name. Or two years ago no one considered Wawrinka a two slam champion after the age 28 or 29 when he won his first slam. If the entire tour is having their best years in the mid to late twenties and early thirties maybe you are judging that age group to early. And besides it is not unnormal. Between the rise of Agassi in the late 80s and Sampras in the early 90s tennis didn't have a great player rise up until Federer in the mid 2000s, that is more than a decade. Federer, Nadal, Sampras, and Djokovic level of Champions don't grow on trees despite us being spoiled in the recent golden age. There is going to be a natural doldrums period almost guaranteed after you lose a fed or Nadal or both. Somehow I don't remember Fed fans talking about how poor tennis was that we had no great players come up from the rise of Sampras till the rise of Federer and how awful the level of competition was.

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Post by Guest Mon 11 Jan 2016, 6:13 pm

Again posters are not asking for a multi slam champ to just appear out of nowhere. We just asking for promise. The fact youngsters can't make inroads at 500 level is speaking volumes. 

The game needs to act fast.

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Post by socal1976 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 6:23 pm

LK, again I don't feel like people address the underlying factors of your argument about the failure of youngsters at 500 level. What if this is the new nature of the tour with the best players being from age 27-32 now as opposed to 22-26. You look at their lack of success as failure, but if the entire top 100 is in their late 20s and early 30s for the most part and players are routinely winning first slams and achieving their best years later in their career maybe it just isn't their time yet. Maybe the apprenticeship period is just longer because you can't blast your way to the top with a couple of big weapons like you could do in Becker's time? I mean if it was just Federer having success after 30 we could say well its because Fed is great or is competition isn't. Djokovic is already older than the age that Becker, Wilander, Mac, Borg, Edberg etc. all had won their last slam. Wawrinka is one of the oldest first and second time slam winners in history. So it seems the prime across the board has moved back from a prime typically at 22-26 to a prime of 27-30. What I want to know is why is this bad for the game and no one can say that why it is better that players explode on the scene like a super nova and then fade out then developing and fighting and having success later in their careers.

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Post by Guest Mon 11 Jan 2016, 6:47 pm

I don't see that being the trend going forward. Say the top 5 guys out and I don't see Nishi/Raonic/Dimitrov cleaning up! Look at Dimitrov. Won Queens and reached Wimbledon SF and eventually reached no.8 in the world. What's he done since? 1 final and now world no.28!

The game needs new sustainable blood.

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Post by temporary21 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 7:00 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:Again posters are not asking for a multi slam champ to just appear out of nowhere. We just asking for promise. The fact youngsters can't make inroads at 500 level is speaking volumes. 

The game needs to act fast.
Fair enough. You wanna see breakout stars that are younger than what were getting. What do you propose though? I'm not sure what we can do, they're just not fully developed yet

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Post by lags72 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 7:24 pm

socal1976 wrote:LK, again I don't feel like people address the underlying factors of your argument about the failure of youngsters at 500 level. What if this is the new nature of the tour with the best players being from age 27-32 now as opposed to 22-26. You look at their lack of success as failure, but if the entire top 100 is in their late 20s and early 30s for the most part and players are routinely winning first slams and achieving their best years later in their career maybe it just isn't their time yet. Maybe the apprenticeship period is just longer because you can't blast your way to the top with a couple of big weapons like you could do in Becker's time ? I mean if it was just Federer having success after 30 we could say well its because Fed is great or is competition isn't. Djokovic is already older than the age that Becker, Wilander, Mac, Borg, Edberg etc. all had won their last slam. Wawrinka is one of the oldest first and second time slam winners in history. So it seems the prime across the board has moved back from a prime typically at 22-26 to a prime of 27-30. What I want to know is why is this bad for the game and no one can say that why it is better that players explode on the scene like a super nova and then fade out then developing and fighting and having success later in their careers.

I would have to say that - so far - it actually IS pretty much just Federer who is having success after 30 - at least where 'top level' success is concerned .....as in Masters wins and/or Slam Final/WTF appearances. I guess Wawrinka is the only other high-achieving 30 +

I'm very aware that there are lots of other oldies in the Top 100 ......but they tend not to feature at the business end of the really big events. It's gonna to be interesting to see just what happens when the likes of Nadal, Djoko and Murray turn 30. They will either continue to maintain their elite ranking or will begin to fade in the wake of some long-awaited younger, high achievers.

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Post by socal1976 Mon 11 Jan 2016, 8:11 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:I don't see that being the trend going forward. Say the top 5 guys out and I don't see Nishi/Raonic/Dimitrov cleaning up! Look at Dimitrov. Won Queens and reached Wimbledon SF and eventually reached no.8 in the world. What's he done since? 1 final and now world no.28!

The game needs new sustainable blood.

Everything is relative, I don't think the players you mentioned would clean up like Novak or Roger or Rafa, hell they might not even cleanup to the extent of Andy Murray. I personally think that it is unavoidable after the current crop that we will have difficulty replacing them, it is pretty much the nature of sports when a huge legend leaves and like I said before they don't grow on trees. I think those players you mentioned may be hopped over by the next group, we have had this happen before in tennis ie the next wave that came after (Sampras, Agassi, Edberg, Becker etc). Where I disagree with you is that you think this is a huge and avoidable problem. I don't I think it is just the nature of sport and the nature of greatness being rare. For years we have heard how if you have more parity and more players winning slams is wonderful. I think after what we have seen we will see a period of wide open slams till someone emerges and that we can't avoid a drop off after Fedal retires, it would be a statistical anomaly.

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Post by CAS Mon 11 Jan 2016, 9:14 pm

I did think Novak would dip off as he approaches 30 but then I look at Ferrer and think...Maybe he won't?!

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