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6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

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Post by George Carlin Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 6 Scot_f10     6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 6 Englan10
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
6 February 2016
KO: 16:50 GMT
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC, RTE, FR2, DMAX / ITV(H)

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

133 Played 133
42 Won 73
18 Drawn 18
73 Lost 42
1,132 Points 1,547

B. Recent Form

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

1 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
16 – 12 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND
6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 6 Pia_mi10
15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Matt Scott
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (captain)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

16. Stuart McInally
17. Gordon Reid
18. Zander Fagerson
19. Tim Swinson
20. Blair Cowan
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22. Duncan Weir
23. Duncan Taylor

ENGLAND
6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 6 Daisy_11
15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Owen Farrell
11. Jack Nowell
10. George Ford
09. Danny Care

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. George Kruis
06. Chris Robshaw
07. James Haskell
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Paul Hill
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Jack Clifford
21. Ben Youngs
22. Alex Goode
23. Ollie Devoto


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 04 Feb 2016, 12:29 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Post by IanBru Thu 28 Jan 2016, 3:19 pm

So Denton, Strauss or (at a push) John Barclay at 8 for Scotland.

I wouldn't be too disappointed with either of:
6)Cowan 7)Hardie 8)Denton 20)Strauss
6)Denton 7)Hardie 8)Strauss 20)Barclay
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Post by RDW Thu 28 Jan 2016, 3:20 pm

IanBru wrote:So Denton, Strauss or (at a push) John Barclay at 8 for Scotland.

I wouldn't be too disappointed with either of:
6)Cowan 7)Hardie 8)Denton 20)Strauss
6)Denton 7)Hardie 8)Strauss 20)Barclay

I think Denton's time at Bath has shown that it isn't the best of ideas to put him at 6. I know it is technically just a number on his back, but I think he's far more effective doing a job as a traditional number 8. I.e. carry, carry, carry!

Strauss plays at 6 quite a lot for Glasgow.

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Post by IanBru Thu 28 Jan 2016, 3:24 pm

TJ wrote:You need to take Moore out of that.  A one eyed England fan when he started and he hated the scots - these days IMO one of the best

And can I juste mention Andy " I don't understand the rules" Nichol
Agreed on all the above, Moore especially.

If you get the chance, people should listen to Moore on 'Desert Island Disks' - Kirsty Young asked him about the 1990 match, and the nature of his commentary and he said of the Scots 'I really admire their passion, but I'm bloody passionate too. In fact, if I was Scottish, Scottish people would love me." Hard to argue with that, I've got to say.

OK, so if we're dropping Brian Moore, can I suggest Martin 'I've never watched a game that doesn't involve Wales or Cardiff Blues' Williams or possibly Jason 'England v Wales Snooker Clash' Mohammed in there? I'd happily drive off a bridge if I knew they were strapped in the back seat.
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Post by RDW Thu 28 Jan 2016, 3:31 pm

Geordan Murphy's commentary in the world cup has got to get a mention - I never knew an Irish person could be so dull to hear talk! He makes Michael Owen sound like Michael McIntyre!

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Thu 28 Jan 2016, 5:38 pm

George Carlin wrote:
TJ wrote:You need to take Moore out of that.  A one eyed England fan when he started and he hated the scots - these days IMO one of the best

And can I juste mention Andy " I don't understand the rules" Nichol
Let's not forget John 'I banged Sue Barker' Inverdale.

I would be happy to fire his matted white chest hair and standard condescending ladywater about Scotland having a limited pool of players out of a cannon.

I could not agree more George. I absolutely detest the cretin. Possibly one of the most punchable faces on the planet.

When I saw he was sent up to Hawick to do the interviewing for Bill McLaren's story, I could not believe they had sent that twart.

He's not even fit to sniff the steam from the great man's pi$$.

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Post by RDW Fri 29 Jan 2016, 7:58 am

Here's a sobering stat for consideration - Scotland have only ever won their first 6N game ONCE, in 2006.

Further rubbishes Jones' statement that Scotland are favourites! There have been plenty times we've played England with high hopes that have been cruelly dashed.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 29 Jan 2016, 8:29 am

I think Scotland are favourites.

You're at home
You have a settled experienced team
You have a top coach with experience
You're coming off the back of a good RWC

Plenty of reasons to win

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Post by RDW Fri 29 Jan 2016, 8:41 am

There's certainly plenty reasons for optimism but we've been here so many times before - especially against England!

Scotland have failed to deliver in the 6N so many times before and I'm never going to believe we're favourites for a game against the likes of England until we're regularly doing well in the tournament.

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Post by gregortree Fri 29 Jan 2016, 8:44 am

Oh, so are you not planning on sending Prince Eddie home to think again ?

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Post by lostinwales Fri 29 Jan 2016, 9:04 am

This is all so polite
'You're the best, you are definitely favourites'
'No you're the best we are useless' etc etc..

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Post by IanBru Fri 29 Jan 2016, 9:18 am

yappysnap wrote:I think Scotland are favourites.

You're at home
You have a settled experienced team
You have a top coach with experience
You're coming off the back of a good RWC

Plenty of reasons to win
Those factors would still apply if we were playing a 1976 Wales, 1995 Springboks or 2015 New Zealand.

They suggest that we are playing well compared to our own previous performances, but say nothing about how we will perform against a particular opponent, and certainly don't indicate that we are favourites.
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Post by NeilyBroon Fri 29 Jan 2016, 9:20 am

lostinwales wrote:This is all so polite
'You're the best, you are definitely favourites'
'No you're the best we are useless' etc etc..

Well when you consider the only teams we beat with any relative consistency are outside of the top 10 of world rugby you can see why we don't agree that we're favourites... Although yes we're all very civilised fans ;-)

That said I believe we can beat England if Jones goes with conservative choices, which looks possible, if not probable. I don't think we're in for an exciting game, both sides have their skeletons in the closet from the world cup so I can see it being a bit of an aerial ping pong territory match. Both sides need to win to prove a point, Scotland have to prove they're not a one-match-wonder, England need to prove that they are capable of playing rugby they just had a mediocre coach.

Should be interesting either way.
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Post by cakeordeath Fri 29 Jan 2016, 9:38 am

I don't understand why everyone says Scotland have a settled coaching team. We haven't had the wholesale clear out England have had, but, our new backs coach started last month, and our "breakdown" coach started last week. Frankly I also wish we had a new forwards coach as well, but that is a moan for another day.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 29 Jan 2016, 9:39 am

NeilyBroon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:This is all so polite
'You're the best, you are definitely favourites'
'No you're the best we are useless' etc etc..

Well when you consider the only teams we beat with any relative consistency are outside of the top 10 of world rugby you can see why we don't agree that we're favourites... Although yes we're all very civilised fans ;-)

That said I believe we can beat England if Jones goes with conservative choices, which looks possible, if not probable. I don't think we're in for an exciting game, both sides have their skeletons in the closet from the world cup so I can see it being a bit of an aerial ping pong territory match. Both sides need to win to prove a point, Scotland have to prove they're not a one-match-wonder, England need to prove that they are capable of playing rugby they just had a mediocre coach.

Should be interesting either way.

Oh I don't think I could not find a match like this exciting. But you are right in that it might not be the best quality. Not long now.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 9:47 am

lostinwales wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:This is all so polite
'You're the best, you are definitely favourites'
'No you're the best we are useless' etc etc..

Well when you consider the only teams we beat with any relative consistency are outside of the top 10 of world rugby you can see why we don't agree that we're favourites... Although yes we're all very civilised fans ;-)

That said I believe we can beat England if Jones goes with conservative choices, which looks possible, if not probable. I don't think we're in for an exciting game, both sides have their skeletons in the closet from the world cup so I can see it being a bit of an aerial ping pong territory match. Both sides need to win to prove a point, Scotland have to prove they're not a one-match-wonder, England need to prove that they are capable of playing rugby they just had a mediocre coach.

Should be interesting either way.

Oh I don't think I could not find a match like this exciting. But you are right in that it might not be the best quality. Not long now.

I hope that is not the case, however with Hurricane Gerty pummeling the north today with bridge closed again and snow tomorrow the weather might really upset the apple cart.
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Post by gregortree Fri 29 Jan 2016, 10:04 am

Scottish winter is occasionally an Englisg rugby banana skin.

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 29 Jan 2016, 10:20 am

gregortree wrote:Scottish winter is occasionally an Englisg rugby banana skin.

My friend Gregor the Great is back for more!! More like a haggis skin but it should be a cracker mate - 24-24 I think thumbsup

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Post by gregortree Fri 29 Jan 2016, 10:49 am

Hello Ruby, my Cornish Welshman. A Doom Bar to you sir. Ale

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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri 29 Jan 2016, 11:55 am

I can't see how Scotland could consider themselves underdogs.
I like mind games as much as the next man but in private the players and coaches ought to see this as eminently winnable.

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 29 Jan 2016, 11:57 am

gregortree wrote:Hello Ruby, my Cornish Welshman. A Doom Bar to you sir. Ale

Hug mug And a coffee for you, Sorry mate I'm skint after Xmas thumbsup

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Post by GLove39 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 12:20 pm

why the Frak is Laidlaw on the bench for Glaws this weekend!?!?!?

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Post by 123456789 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 12:24 pm

Bathman_in_London wrote:I can't see how Scotland could consider themselves underdogs.
I like mind games as much as the next man but in private the players and coaches ought to see this as eminently winnable.

In all fairness it is quite often hard to know exactly what they are saying in private.

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Post by RubyGuby Fri 29 Jan 2016, 12:34 pm

Apart from NZ Scotland should think every game is winnable as they have the ability to win them if they play to their maximum potential thumbsup

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Post by gregortree Fri 29 Jan 2016, 1:01 pm

GLove39 wrote:why the Frak is Laidlaw on the bench for Glaws this weekend!?!?!?

Resting him for Scotland I guess. He has been benched a few times.
I wonder if he negotiated an unofficial deal when he signed with Glaws.

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Post by GLove39 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 1:04 pm

gregortree wrote:
GLove39 wrote:why the Frak is Laidlaw on the bench for Glaws this weekend!?!?!?

Resting him for Scotland I guess. He has been benched a few times.
I wonder if he negotiated an unofficial deal when he signed with Glaws.

It's more the why's he in Gloucester full stop? I thought he'd be safely tucked up in Edinburgh this weekend working on how many times he can fit the phrase, "BT Murayfield" into his victory speech.

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Post by englandglory4ever Fri 29 Jan 2016, 1:25 pm

AP clubs in Europe have done very well this year in no short measure due to good performances by EPS players. Couple that with a half descent running rugby pitch this year and a strong desire to put things right I think the Scots will find it immensely hard to beat England. Add in a little history which says Scotland don't win the Calcutta Cup very often then one slip up will cause the Scottish mental demons to rise again. England at a canter.

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Post by madmaccas Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:18 pm

What should we make of the players starting for their clubs this week? Presumably the Scottish players selected most likely won't be picked or will be bench options at best (Weir etc).

From Glasgow:

Grant, Weir, Fusaro and Reid + Strauss on the bench.

From Edinburgh:

Sutherland, Watson and McInally

From Saracens:

Taylor

From London Irish:

Maitland

From Gloucester:

Laidlaw on the bench

Interestingly the Scarlets have Barclay unavailable due to 'international duty'. Hopefully that means he's in the 23.

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Post by IanBru Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:23 pm

madmaccas wrote:Interestingly the Scarlets have Barclay unavailable due to 'international duty'. Hopefully that means he's in the 23.
If true, that's about the best news I've heard all day.
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Post by NeilyBroon Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:47 pm

IanBru wrote:
madmaccas wrote:Interestingly the Scarlets have Barclay unavailable due to 'international duty'. Hopefully that means he's in the 23.
If true, that's about the best news I've heard all day.

Please be the triple 7s combo! Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:48 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
IanBru wrote:
madmaccas wrote:Interestingly the Scarlets have Barclay unavailable due to 'international duty'. Hopefully that means he's in the 23.
If true, that's about the best news I've heard all day.

Please be the triple 7s combo! Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed

We have enough powerful carriers in the tight 5 to make that work I suppose.
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Post by 123456789 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:54 pm

That's brilliant news, I've seen quite a few London Irish games and Cowan has been fairly poor, I'd like to see Barclay and Hardie either side of the scrum. England haven't got any real breakdown specialists, we could really dominate in that regard with Barclay and Hardie.

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Post by madmaccas Fri 29 Jan 2016, 2:55 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
IanBru wrote:
madmaccas wrote:Interestingly the Scarlets have Barclay unavailable due to 'international duty'. Hopefully that means he's in the 23.
If true, that's about the best news I've heard all day.

Please be the triple 7s combo! Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed Fingers Crossed

We have enough powerful carriers in the tight 5 to make that work I suppose.

Barclay's plenty powerful! He's 6'3 and 16+ stone.


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Post by 123456789 Fri 29 Jan 2016, 3:02 pm

That game still hurts, I still believe that had Scotland won and the injuries not happened then Andy Robinson would have been a success. If I remember rightly an injury hit Scotland went down to Italy, drew with England and beat Ireland, imagine the difference beating Wales would have had.

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Post by beshocked Fri 29 Jan 2016, 3:07 pm

yappysnap wrote:I think Scotland are favourites.

You're at home
You have a settled experienced team
You have a top coach with experience
You're coming off the back of a good RWC

Plenty of reasons to win

1. Correct
2. Not correct. Likely to be less experienced than England. Still relatively new combos. Not all Scottish players in form.
3. Has won nothing with Scotland unless you include the wooden spoon. His big asset has been to renew confidence.
4. Got one more stage than England but lost to the same team England did but by less points. Beat a knackered Japan, a misfiring Samoa side and a weak USA. A good RWC for Scotland I guess but in the grand scheme not really.

I think the game is 50/50.

Scotland will be buoyed by what for them was a good RWC. Confidence will be high.

Could be aided by strange selections by Eddie Jones. Eddie Jones picks the 23 I believe he should I think England would win quite comfortably.

As it stands though I think it will be a very close one.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 29 Jan 2016, 3:11 pm

madmaccas wrote:...
Barclay's plenty powerful! He's 6'3 and 16+ stone.


At a guess I'd say that would still make him lighter than everyone in the starting England pack.

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Post by MacKnocked-on Fri 29 Jan 2016, 3:13 pm

I would think that both Maitland and Taylor will feature next week if they are OK after this weekend. Surprised in some ways that the SRU are letting Taylor play, he's got to be right in the reckoning to start against England.
Noticed Denton is nowhere to be seen for Bath, don't know if he's being held back by Cotter or if Bath have totally dropped him after his efforts last week?

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Post by beshocked Fri 29 Jan 2016, 3:19 pm

Macknocked on what can the SRU do? Demand Saracens not to play him? Surely it's not the SRU's decision. In these situations surely the player has to put it in their contract to be released/rested.

Probably Scotland asked Bath to "rest" Denton and they agreed gracefully because they didn't want him to start anyway!

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Post by gregortree Fri 29 Jan 2016, 3:39 pm

Laidlaw has been rested by Glaws a lot this season.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 29 Jan 2016, 4:21 pm

I have to say I think that at least one of the Haskell at 7 & Farrell at 12 likely selections is a red herring from Jones to allow either Devoto or Clifford to come in for a first cap under the radar a bit. I think that a BR of Robshaw, Clifford and Billy V is a better and more effective choice than chucking Haskell the doughnut in there.

Just a hunch.

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Post by beshocked Fri 29 Jan 2016, 4:46 pm

Mr Bounce Hartley as captain wasn't a red herring.

Devoto or Clifford starting would hardly be under the radar. The choice would get huge coverage.

Especially Devoto who one could argue doesn't deserve to be in the 33 let alone 23.

I think it would have been very beneficial for Devoto to start for Bath at 12 vs Saracens to see what he's made of.


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/jan/28/elliot-daly-england-wasps-eddie-jones-six-nations

Laughable article by Dean Ryan. How can Daly prove he's a test match animal if not picked to start at international level?

He said test spots should be hard won. What about Devoto then? What about Hill?

Ridiculous double standards.

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Post by Exiledinborders Fri 29 Jan 2016, 4:53 pm

beshocked wrote:Macknocked on what can the SRU do? Demand Saracens not to play him? Surely it's not the SRU's decision. In these situations surely the player has to put it in their contract to be released/rested.

Probably Scotland asked Bath to "rest" Denton and they agreed gracefully because they didn't want him to start anyway!
The PRL rules do not allow the player to put that in a contract with the player. Saints got in hot water for agreeing that with North.

The reasons is that the PRL clubs are paid by the RFU for access to English players. They are hardly likely to continue that if the SRU get the same rights.

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Post by jimbopip Sat 30 Jan 2016, 10:37 am

This week's starts;

Weir - means Dancer will start against the English. Very Happy

Shrek and Bluto benching - probably in the match day 23

McInally - could get bench spot.

Taylor - very surprising as he and Matt Scott12 are our only fit centres.

Maitland - needs the game time to show he's fit

Let's go with the nailed on certain starters

1. Dickinson
2. MrChinhook
3. Nellie
4&5 Gray Bros
6.
7. Hardie
8.
9. Frodo (a) because his World Cup was simply sublime (b) there is no alternative - which is no criticism of Frodo
10. Dancer
11. Seymour - who looked fit and hungry against Racing 92
12 Matt Scott12 - but in the last year has had two nightmare performances , Twickers and then Samoa in the World Cup, when big runners have targeted his channels.
13. Taylor- please don't play an unfit Messiah and crock him
14.
15. Hogg- see comments about Seymour v Racing 92.

So, it's two back row places and a winger we're not sure about. Do we pick an eight just to negate Billy V? Or do we pick Barcs to load the breakdown in our favour? Personally, I think current form puts Clare Baldwin struggling to make the bench and we see Cowan or Bluto at 6 with Barcs at 8.
As for 14 it's McMisser if fit or Maitland.

Of course, we haven't mentioned the ghost at the feast; Schlong isn't starting this weekend. Shocked He could be 13 instead of Taylor, or 14. If that doesn't have you choking on your Weetabix nothing will.

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Post by 123456789 Sat 30 Jan 2016, 5:14 pm

For me if Bennett is a 100% fit he starts, but if he isn't you've got to go with Taylor.

Apart from that I'd agree with your choices, I'd fill the two back row places with Barclay and Denton, Barclay because he is one of the best players in Europe when it comes to getting over the ball and Denton because he does provide some bulk. At 14 I'd go with Maitland, Visser's tackling is suspect at the best of times after injury in an international match I suspect we'll see almost a revolving door. Also your concerns about Matt Scott surely don't really apply when he's up against Farrell who is anything but a big runner at 12. I really think Scotland have them in the midfield, Joseph and Ford are off form and Farrell is out of position. Eddie Jones also seems almost Van Gaal esque and I'm not sure two weeks is going to get the best out of him before the Scotland game, ideally the likes of Barclay, Hardie etc. can get up in Hartley's face and really test out the new Dylan, I'm not sure anything will make England doubt themselves and their new coach following the world cup than Dylan raising his hand to his forehead pushing his stomach out and pulling that funny face he always does when a card is brought out.

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Post by MacKnocked-on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 5:20 pm

Having just watched Sarries v Bath I find it hard to believe that Jones doesn't think Itoje is ready to start for England, looks a superb player.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 30 Jan 2016, 5:29 pm

Just a lot of competition at lock.

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Post by nathan Sat 30 Jan 2016, 6:06 pm

And only a limited amount of changes allowed

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Post by lostinwales Sat 30 Jan 2016, 6:15 pm

nathan wrote:And only a limited amount of changes allowed

That isn't relevant as Itoje is already in the EPS

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Post by englandglory4ever Sat 30 Jan 2016, 10:50 pm

Itoje was virtually anonymous in the first half today. It seemed clear why he was dropped by Eddie. The transformation in the second half was huge. He played very well. McCall must have given him a rather big kick up the Khyber at half time. He needs to put in 80 minutes to get a chance with England.

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Post by reallybored Sun 31 Jan 2016, 5:42 pm

For me:

1 - Dickinson
2 - Ford
3 - Nel
4 - Gray
5 - Gray
6 - Strauss ( tempted by Barclay but would prefer Strauss' bulk & ball carrying for England)
7 - Hardie
8 - Denton

9 - Laidlaw
10 - Russell
11 - Visser ( Maitland if unfit )
12 - Scott
13 - Bennett ( Taylor if unfit )
14 - Seymour
15 - Hogg

16 - MacArthur   ( in good form )
17 - Reid
18 - Low ( Low's experience gives him the nudge for England  )
19 - Toolis
20 - Barclay   ( great option off the bench )
21 - Hidalgo-Clyne
22 - Weir
23 - Maitland * ( Taylor / Lamont )


Pretty strong team in my book, pack is a match for the English, threat out wide with Seymour & Hogg looking sharp and a strong bench.

Mon then.

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Post by beshocked Sun 31 Jan 2016, 11:07 pm

Englandglory4ever yes Itoje was relatively quiet in the first half but it seemed like he was everywhere in the 2nd.

You say he has to put in 80 minutes. Surely what you want from a player is for them to influence the game. He certainly did that.

Some people wouldn't pick him no matter how well he's playing. It's the negative mindset.

Seems overly harsh to criticise him for not doing more. Without him Sarries would have lost.

I keep banging on about Itoje because I think he's an exciting talent that should be introduced asap.

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