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6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

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Post by George Carlin Wed 20 Jan 2016, 12:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Scot_f10     6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Englan10
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
6 February 2016
KO: 16:50 GMT
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC, RTE, FR2, DMAX / ITV(H)

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

133 Played 133
42 Won 73
18 Drawn 18
73 Lost 42
1,132 Points 1,547

B. Recent Form

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

1 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
16 – 12 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND
6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Pia_mi10
15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Matt Scott
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (captain)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

16. Stuart McInally
17. Gordon Reid
18. Zander Fagerson
19. Tim Swinson
20. Blair Cowan
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22. Duncan Weir
23. Duncan Taylor

ENGLAND
6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Daisy_11
15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Owen Farrell
11. Jack Nowell
10. George Ford
09. Danny Care

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. George Kruis
06. Chris Robshaw
07. James Haskell
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Paul Hill
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Jack Clifford
21. Ben Youngs
22. Alex Goode
23. Ollie Devoto


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 04 Feb 2016, 12:29 pm; edited 4 times in total
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6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Empty Re: 6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

Post by VinceWLB Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:42 pm

2 dull games today by the way, level is so much higher in the Southern Hemisphere, they must be laughing their ass off after watching that.

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Post by maestegmafia Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:43 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Scotland will never win anything with Laidlaw as a scrumhalf.

Aye Scott's could do with more zip at the base of the scrum and rucks...

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:44 pm

all a bit meh wasn't it from both sides. Scotland lacked composure in England's 22, and England, were rather average. Game not helped by some fairly random refereeing from Lacey.

Positives for England: Vunipola (Billy) was magnificent, and Kruis had a good all-round game. Haskell put in some crunching tackles, and England's defence was generally really solid. Got the win.

Negatives: seems Billy was the only strong carrier again, the Care-Ford-Farrell axis didn't offer anything in attack really.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:45 pm

VinceWLB wrote:2 dull games today by the way, level is so much higher in the Southern Hemisphere, they must be laughing their ass off after watching that.

I thought the first game was OK TBH, both sides showed some decent adventure at times in attack, and Italy looked much improved from the rather sorry shambles of the WC.

Still, neither Ireland nor Wales will be exactly quaking in their boots after today, that's for sure...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:46 pm

Not the best but Jones wanted a win. He got it.

Italy away next. I expect to see a few changes.

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Post by beshocked Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:46 pm

Sgt. poorly to be fair yes Haskell did do pretty well. Hartley was solid.

Still would have started George and a proper 7 though.

Do you honestly think it was a good performance?

Was a solid result, a win is a win.

Still think form is important though.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:47 pm

Ps whilst Billy was class....i thought Kruis showed huge promise as an international lock.

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Post by No9 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:47 pm

Normal service resumes

Boring England edge out a win. Full of promise Scotland prior to tournament kick off revert to type, of clueless rudderless team...

Italy should have beaten France earlier...

GOD, for NH rugby, lets hope Ireland and Wales put on a good game tomorrow....

Before hand, thought England would be out to show everyone how good the could be, and I'd backed them for a Slam... Now can't see past a Welsh title win this year...


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Post by Breadvan Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:49 pm

Impressed with how England played in the first 30 of the second half after Scotland ended the first on top. Scrappy but something to build on...
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Post by doctor_grey Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:49 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:all a bit meh wasn't it from both sides. Scotland lacked composure in England's 22, and England, were rather average. Game not helped by some fairly random refereeing from Lacey.

Positives for England: Vunipola (Billy) was magnificent, and Kruis had a good all-round game. Haskell put in some crunching tackles, and England's defence was generally really solid. Got the win.

Negatives: seems Billy was the only strong carrier again, the Care-Ford-Farrell axis didn't offer anything in attack really.
Have to agree. Billy was very good, but the rest of the attack seemed mindless. And the word mindless takes me to our scrum halves, our fly half and inside centre. The scrum was very good and the lineout was pretty good. Open play was not very good. Watson should never run inside because he seems intimidated or simply doesn't have any power. Did JJ play? Kruis was quite good.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:50 pm

Everyone harping on about performance etc.

Eddie made it very clear....he wanted a WIN!!!!!

He got it. Italy away. Itoje etc may well get a run out

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Post by Heaf Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:50 pm

TJ wrote:
nathan wrote:
TJ wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Heaf wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:England score a try despite a massive obstruction missed by the ref.
??? where?

There wasn't one

Yes there was - Care blocked Laidlaw - not that Laidlaw would have stopped Vunipola much quicker
That's stretching the trust a bit as Care didn't move, Laidlaw just grabbed him off the ball though.

Have a look again at the replays later.  Laidlaw was foolish to get conned but Care clearly blocked him and opened the channel for Vunipola
Still wrong ...

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:51 pm

I hope that in Italy George gets a bit longer, and guys like Hill, Devoto get their chance. Understandable that in a tight game Jones chose to keep his experienced guys on the pitch, but hopefully against Italy we'll have the game secured going into the last 20. Would be nice to see guys like Itoje and Daly get a chance from the bench too.

All in all, it was a performance that was rather similar to Lancaster's first win here. Not a huge amount of adventure, but did enough of the nitty-gritty to deserve the result.

Set piece was good, Kruis seemed to call the line-out well, and made a decent fist of disrupting Scotland's - helped by some wonky throwing from the Scottish hookers.

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Post by nathan Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:51 pm

No9 wrote:Normal service resumes

Boring England edge out a win. Full of promise Scotland prior to tournament kick off revert to type, of clueless rudderless team...

Italy should have beaten France earlier...

GOD, for NH rugby, lets hope Ireland and Wales put on a good game tomorrow....

Before hand, thought England would be out to show everyone how good the could be, and I'd backed them for a Slam... Now can't see past a Welsh title win this year...

You were expecting that after the England team have been together for 2 weeks under a new coach...

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:51 pm

Scotlamd missed a great chance to score a try,l the first try it would of been against England at Murryfield.

If, if Fin Russell had passed the interception to Hogg. Hogg would of been in. for a try....I really do not think any one would of caught him.

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Post by Heaf Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:51 pm

nathan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:A decent win for England but I cant help but feel the game was ruined as a spectacle by some seriously poor refereeing by Lacey. Both sides suffered from his ineptitude.
This +10000
Yep ...

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

Forgot to mention the second England try in the positives, which was a lovely bit of skill by Mako, and the only time having two playmakers on the pitch was any use at all. Would have liked to see a bit more of that sort of thing.

GF, yes Eddie wanted the win, and got it. Fair enough. Hopefully things will improve as he stamps his authority on the team, and England will show a bit more adventure in Rome. Thought Italy looked decent today TBH, so England will have to be on top of their game.

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Post by Heaf Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

No9 wrote:Normal service resumes

Boring England edge out a win. Full of promise Scotland prior to tournament kick off revert to type, of clueless rudderless team...

Italy should have beaten France earlier...

GOD, for NH rugby, lets hope Ireland and Wales put on a good game tomorrow....

Before hand, thought England would be out to show everyone how good the could be, and I'd backed them for a Slam... Now can't see past a Welsh title win this year...

Bit early to draw any conclusions I would think ...

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Post by beshocked Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

Geordiefalcon I agree the win is good but still not completely convinced by the issues highlighted before the game.

Needs to make some tweaking for Italy.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I hope that in Italy George gets a bit longer, and guys like Hill, Devoto get their chance. Understandable that in a tight game Jones chose to keep his experienced guys on the pitch, but hopefully against Italy we'll have the game secured going into the last 20. Would be nice to see guys like Itoje and Daly get a chance from the bench too.

All in all, it was a performance that was rather similar to Lancaster's first win here. Not a huge amount of adventure, but did enough of the nitty-gritty to deserve the result.

Set piece was good, Kruis seemed to call the line-out well, and made a decent fist of disrupting Scotland's - helped by some wonky throwing from the Scottish hookers.
You just highlighted a big difference compared to Lancaster.  He would have made his changes at 55-65 minutes regardless of the situation.  Jones kept his preferred players on the pitch as long as possible.  Only if someone was not performing or needed energy did he make a change.  That is a huge change for the better.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:56 pm

beshocked wrote:Sgt. poorly to be fair yes Haskell did do pretty well. Hartley was solid.

Still would have started George and a proper 7 though.

Do you honestly think it was a good performance?

Was a solid result, a win is a win.

Still think form is important though.

Well you'd have been wrong Beshocked. You said Eddie made a mistake picking Haskell & Hartley, he didn't.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:56 pm

Well that puts us firmly into the wooden spoon race once again. I thought we were very poor and by some way the worse team. Makes you wonder how we can consistently con ourselves into thinking things will have changed before the start of each 6N.

Also some of the Scottish fans on here will presumably be shocked to find that John Barclay can't, in fact, actually walk on water

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:57 pm

Heaf wrote:
nathan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:A decent win for England but I cant help but feel the game was ruined as a spectacle by some seriously poor refereeing by Lacey. Both sides suffered from his ineptitude.
This +10000
Yep ...
can't help but agree. Don't like to blame the ref, and he didn't favour either side, but his random refereeing makes it hard for sides to adapt. Just no real consistency in his decision making.

By contrast Doyle earlier made the odd mistake, but was consistent in what he was pinging (strict on hands on the floor when competing at the ruck for instance), and that's what sides really want from a ref surely?

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Post by beshocked Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:59 pm

Who knows? George and a open side might have been better.

Can't just think of one game, need to think of the bigger picture too.

It was noticeable when Georgw came on for Hartley the scrum improved.



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Post by No9 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:59 pm

nathan wrote:
No9 wrote:Normal service resumes

Boring England edge out a win. Full of promise Scotland prior to tournament kick off revert to type, of clueless rudderless team...

Italy should have beaten France earlier...

GOD, for NH rugby, lets hope Ireland and Wales put on a good game tomorrow....

Before hand, thought England would be out to show everyone how good the could be, and I'd backed them for a Slam... Now can't see past a Welsh title win this year...

You were expecting that after the England team have been together for 2 weeks under a new coach...


Yes, why not.....

Core team hadn't changed, some new faces yes, but the core is the same. New coaching team, yes....

Cast your mind back, RWC 2007, Wales knocked out at pool stages, coach sacked even before they go home. New management team briought in. Few months later 2008 Grand Slam... It's NO different.

I thought England would be out to prove a point, but instead of a few key players who stood out, most looked as if they couldn't be bothered...

Don't get me wrong, I'm no English rugby fan as a Welshman, but the tournament needs competition and that was woeful.... Not sure how I stayed awake. Erm


Last edited by No9 on Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by maestegmafia Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:01 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
beshocked wrote:Sgt. poorly to be fair yes Haskell did do pretty well. Hartley was solid.

Still would have started George and a proper 7 though.

Do you honestly think it was a good performance?

Was a solid result, a win is a win.

Still think form is important though.

Well you'd have been wrong Beshocked. You said Eddie made a mistake picking Haskell & Hartley, he didn't.

I dissagree pooly

I think Hartley, Haskell, Farrell and the halfbacks really limited England in attack.

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Post by beshocked Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:04 pm

Sgt. poorly you're problem is that you're satisfied with mediocrity.

To be fair Hartley was solid and Haskell performed his role well but it doesn't mean that England can't improve at hooker or open side.

i will admit both did better than I thought they would, notably Haskell.

You could call me wrong but I am also right about the issues that still linger.

I was also impressed that EJ was willing to make changes when he felt he had to.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:05 pm

beshocked wrote:Who knows? George and a open side might have been better.

Can't just think of one game, need to think of the bigger picture too.

It was noticeable when Georgw came on for Hartley the scrum improved.



You just can't admit you were wrong!

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Post by VinceWLB Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:06 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
Also some of the Scottish fans on here will presumably be shocked to find that John Barclay can't, in fact, actually walk on water

He was good, despite playing in his wrong position. But i would rather have a proper blindside, one named Josh Strauss preferably.

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Post by eirebilly Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:06 pm

If Farrell is pretty much in the team for his kicking, will he feeling nervous? He really does not offer that much in attack and his petulance may end up costing England during the 6N.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:07 pm

THought all the starters were solid at the very least, thought England were solid and did what they had to. Can't call it poor, Scotland were deemed favourites by many and we won quiye comfortably, handling to work on, discipline in first half wasn't great.

I am biased but I thought Brown was better and back to his usual self or nearly in the air and in running the ball into contact - he did kick poorly though. He's also better at rucking than most forwards. Care was miles and miles ahead of Youngs, quicker pass, made Laidlaw think about him and even kicked better. Marler was solid, held the scrum so that Mako could come on and do damage against tired opposition in the loose and set piece. Robshaw was better than Haskell who mostly seemed to late tackle the halfbacks, but neither was their best or poor. Clifford was decent in his cameo, didn't do much.

Ford was a bit shaky, still missing his confidence, and I'm not sure what our eventual attack will be. Billy V was the best player on the pitch. Kruis also had a very good game, Lawes was better than I expected, Cole was a menace on the floor, Launcbury solid, Hartley solid, Youngs slow slow slow but not dreadful. Farrell ok but not a natural 12, and not sure why he needed to push Laidlaw, also lucky with several high tackles. Joseph better than at Bath, one great man and ball tackle and some steps. Watson and Nowell both worked hard.

6/10 start, which will do, look to build over the tournament.


Would play:

Brown
Watson
Joseph
Hill/Devoto
Nowell
Farrell
Care
Vunipola
Haskell/Kvesic
Robshaw
Launchbury
Kruis
Cole
Hartley
Marler

George, Vunipola, Brookes, Itoje, Clifford, Youngs, Ford, Daly

next match
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Post by TJ Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:08 pm

eirebilly wrote:If Farrell is pretty much in the team for his kicking, will he feeling nervous? He really does not offer that much in attack and his petulance may end up costing England during the 6N.

Indeed - Farrells petulance turned an England lineout inside the scots 22 into a penalty for Scotland

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Post by TJ Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:09 pm

Most telling stat - Scotland made 5 line breaks england 3. All game. Dullsville

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Post by beshocked Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:10 pm

Sgt pooly you have never admitted you are wrong. Why should I say I was wrong when the overall problems are still there?

The positive is England have a win to build off. Hopefully Eddie Jones will make more positive selections against Italy though sadly I believe Italy's battling loss might force EJ to continue to be conservative.

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Post by little_badger Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:10 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:THought all the starters were solid at the very least, thought England were solid and did what they had to. Can't call it poor, Scotland were deemed favourites by many and we won quiye comfortably, handling to work on, discipline in first half wasn't great.

I am biased but I thought Brown was better and back to his usual self or nearly in the air and in running the ball into contact - he did kick poorly though. He's also better at rucking than most forwards. Care was miles and miles ahead of Youngs, quicker pass, made Laidlaw think about him and even kicked better. Marler was solid, held the scrum so that Mako could come on and do damage against tired opposition in the loose and set piece. Robshaw was better than Haskell who mostly seemed to late tackle the halfbacks, but neither was their best or poor. Clifford was decent in his cameo, didn't do much.

Ford was a bit shaky, still missing his confidence, and I'm not sure what our eventual attack will be. Billy V was the best player on the pitch. Kruis also had a very good game, Lawes was better than I expected, Cole was a menace on the floor, Launcbury solid, Hartley solid, Youngs slow slow slow but not dreadful. Farrell ok but not a natural 12, and not sure why he needed to push Laidlaw, also lucky with several high tackles. Joseph better than at Bath, one great man and ball tackle and some steps. Watson and Nowell both worked hard.

6/10 start, which will do, look to build over the tournament.


Would play:

Brown
Watson
Joseph
Hill/Devoto
Nowell
Farrell
Care
Vunipola
Haskell/Kvesic
Robshaw
Launchbury
Kruis
Cole
Hartley
Marler

George, Vunipola, Brookes, Itoje, Clifford, Youngs, Ford, Daly

next match

Mostly agree with that team, it's Ford or Farrell to start, not both.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:10 pm

TJ wrote:Most telling stat - Scotland made 5 line breaks england 3.  All game.  Dullsville

It was a match refereed by Lacey. Without taking anything else into consideration, it wasn't going to be a thing of beauty
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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:11 pm

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I agree the win is good but still not completely convinced by the issues highlighted before the game.

Needs to make some tweaking for Italy.

Yes but it's early days and he got what he wanted. Things will improve.

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Post by TJ Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:11 pm

Aye - You have Joseph, Watson, Nowell - use them and you will score tries

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6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Empty Re: 6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:11 pm

beshocked wrote:Sgt. poorly you're problem is that you're satisfied with mediocrity.

To be fair Hartley was solid and Haskell performed his role well but it doesn't mean that England can't improve at hooker or open side.

i will admit both did better than I thought they would, notably Haskell.

You could call me wrong but I am also right about the issues that still linger.

I was also impressed that EJ was willing to make changes when he felt he had to.

We've just beat a good Scotland side away pretty convincingly. It takes a big man to admit he was incorrect, I don't think that's going to happen in this case.

Eddie picked a side to win and we did, it's as simple as that.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:13 pm

TJ wrote:Aye - You have Joseph, Watson, Nowell - use them and you will score tries

Just wait until Daly gets in on it...


I did notice that neither Care nor Youngs attacked the fringes as I would expect them to, though
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6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 18 Empty Re: 6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

Post by nathan Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:13 pm

I must of been watching a different game, both Care and Youngs were slow, but that's because our forwards were not clearly rucks effectively.

Care's passing which was meant to be loads better turned out to be worse than youngs - I counted about 4 head height passes. He was crabbing too and was at fault for Scotland nearly scoring a try by jumping out of the line.

Youngs made a silly intercept pass, but i thought he ordered the forwards around better.

I still believe they are very close to each other but would start youngs ahead of Care

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Post by R!skysports Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:13 pm

Same old rubbish from Scotland

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Post by tigertattie Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:13 pm

Surely to goodness Scotland are the best team in the world at false dawns?

What is it? Our mentality? We're just not winners!!!
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Post by nathan Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:14 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
TJ wrote:Aye - You have Joseph, Watson, Nowell - use them and you will score tries

Just wait until Daly gets in on it...


I did notice that neither Care nor Youngs attacked the fringes as I would expect them to, though
I think that's down to our forwards and fear of the either SH getting isolated

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:19 pm

Maybe.

I didn't see Care crab at all, in contrast to Youngs, but I definitely watch these games with quarter-tinted glasses
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Post by DirtyRucker7 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:19 pm

Told you so Scottish folk , we won and that is what we do, if it wasn't for some seriously biased refereeing we would have won by much more.

The Slam is on Steady Eddie taking us on the glorious road to the 2019 World cup victory.

Well done boys

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Post by offload Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:20 pm

Scotland: Out muscled up front, clueless in attack, tried hard. Same old Scotland.

England: Good set piece, decent power game, 10/12 axis does not work and the potent back three were wasted. Against that Scottish performance a good attack would have a field day. Jones got his win.
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Post by VinceWLB Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:21 pm

tigertattie wrote:Surely to goodness Scotland are the best team in the world at false dawns?

What is it? Our mentality? We're just not winners!!!

Vern Cotter may not be as good as we all think. Swinson being selected on the bench is a case in point. Too much coaching in Top 14 aka anti rugby has ruined him as a coach.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:24 pm

beshocked wrote:Sgt pooly you have never admitted you are wrong. Why should I say I was wrong when the overall problems are still there?

The positive is England have a win to build off. Hopefully Eddie Jones will make more positive selections against Italy though sadly I believe Italy's battling loss might force EJ to continue to be conservative.

We won, that's what counts. You were wrong but lack the metal to admit this, lets move on.

Care wasn't great but Youngs was really bad. His kicking and passing left a lot to be desired and the less said about that intercept the better. Not a good day at the office for Mr Youngs.

Haskell put in a big shift and outplayed Robshaw on the flanks. I thought Robshaw was pretty quiet, he put in his tackles but offered very little else. I honestly can's see him being around the England set-up too much longer.

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Post by offload Sat 06 Feb 2016, 7:24 pm

DirtyRucker7 wrote:Told you so Scottish folk , we won and that is what we do, if it wasn't for some seriously biased refereeing we would have won by much more.

The Slam is on Steady Eddie taking us on the glorious road to the 2019  World cup victory.

Well done boys

Oh dear .........and there were some intelligent comments on the thread.
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