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Hartley set to be named England captain

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Post by Shifty Thu 21 Jan 2016, 8:28 am

According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 21 Jan 2016, 8:34 am

Shifty wrote:According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.

I'm sure even without Mr Hartley as El Capitan those same people would find a reason. Ale

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Post by eirebilly Thu 21 Jan 2016, 8:34 am

Think its a good choice myself. As long as he doesn't lose his aggressive streak. Without his aggressive streak, he is a decent 2 but not great.

People always say that his aggressive streak has cost England in the past and, indirectly with bans at club level it has but I cant recall a time when playing for England that his aggressive streak cost them a match?

Good call if he is made captain.
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Post by eirebilly Thu 21 Jan 2016, 8:36 am

Aahh, missed the point. This is just a threat to try and fish for some wumming. My bad.
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Post by Guest Thu 21 Jan 2016, 8:49 am

There's two types of aggression in sport: hostile and instrumental. Hostile involves a clear intention to cause harm (physical or psychological) and is not within the rules. Instrumental is more closely linked to assertiveness and is aggression in pursuit of a goal without intending to cause harm. If Hartley can focus on the latter without tipping over into the former then his performances shouldn't be affected, i.e. he can still reach optimum performance without removing aggression from his game all together. It's when his arousal levels tip over the threshold and leads to hostile aggression and the 'red mist' - that's when he's in trouble! Literally!

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Post by Breadvan Thu 21 Jan 2016, 9:10 am

Shifty wrote:According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.

Alongside the likes of Ashton, Mike Brown, Robshaw,Farrell ppl on social media especailly love to hate. Anybody else and they'll be descibed as 'passionate' ;-)
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Post by beshocked Thu 21 Jan 2016, 9:13 am

It's funny that people actually forget that Hartley wasn't really that good in the 2015 6 nations.

The only reason they forget that is because despite his form, he's still more reliable at set piece than T.Youngs

England need to move on from Hartley in my opinion.

His selection would be a kick in the teeth for players who can play well without seeing the need to be dirty players. People say he's aggressive, you don't need to be a thug to be a good player or even a good leader IMO.

I would keep Robshaw temporarily as captain just as an interim decison with a younger man as a long term solution.

Robshaw was panned in the media for his decision to kick to the corner in the RWC, I would have done the same as Robshaw, you play to win, it's always a gamble but England didn't lose the game with that decision.

The decisive moment was the conceded try.

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Post by TightHEAD Thu 21 Jan 2016, 9:37 am

I'd stick with Robshaw as Captain too, playing No6 he is still up there with the best in the country on current form and to be honest I fail to see anyone else who is a nailed on starter in their position capable of being Captain, apart from maybe Brown.
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Post by BamBam Thu 21 Jan 2016, 9:41 am

I'm fine with Hartley being captain.

He's still our best, PROVEN, international hooker, and set piece solidity up against the Scottish pack is the first thing we need. I'm a big fan of Jamie George, but dropping him into that scenario may not be the best thing for him.

My only question would be what happens after the front row subs, does Hartley have the fitness to play 80 mins? I doubt it, and George should get 20 odd mins to show what he can do.

Who would take over the captaincy then? Its been in crunch time that Robshaw's decision making was questioned, and if he is the de facto number 2, then are we any better off? Maybe Launchbury should be the vice captain and know he is playing 80 mins more often than not


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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 21 Jan 2016, 9:44 am

beshocked wrote:It's funny that people actually forget that Hartley wasn't really that good in the 2015 6 nations.
I don't think that has been forgotten. At the time, there were many comments - including here on that forum - that Hartley's attempt to get his discipline under control had made him a less effective player. I think that's one reason Lancaster's decision to leave him out of the squad wasn't initially seen as anything other than bad luck for the player himself.

It was only after our set piece went so poorly in the warm-up matches and tournament itself, that people started to think that, no matter how off colour he seemed at the time, perhaps he might have been a key ingredient in holding our scrum together, and getting a fair lineout return with club mates Lawes & Wood.

I thought along those lines myself. Looking back, however, I'm beginning to think that our set piece struggled because something went awry with our overall conditioning, and I'm not sure that Hartley would necessarily have made such a difference.

As it stands, Hartley has a lot to prove that he deserves to start as hooker, let alone captain the side.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 21 Jan 2016, 9:45 am

My problem with Hartley as skipper is that at the moment he is not good enough to warrant a place in the matchday 23. Thus we are hoping that he will suddenly regain his previous form. Feels like Martin Johnson and Lewis Moody all over again, 4 1/2 years later.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 21 Jan 2016, 10:30 am

Yikes!

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Thu 21 Jan 2016, 10:35 am

I guess EJ wanted to put his stamp on the team with a new captain, but didn't feel confident yet with a long-term candidate. So Hartley gets it almost by default of being one of the senior candidates. Probably won't last too long after the 6N tho. Either way I like EJ's thinking - should rattle a few cages.
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Post by Cumbrian Thu 21 Jan 2016, 10:46 am

Dropping Hartley in there is good from an experience point of view. For so long our pack has gone into games with a massive deficit of caps compared to their opposition. If the reports are to be believed the team could look something like:

01. Mako Vunipola (27 Caps)
02. Dylan Hartley (66 Caps)
03. Dan Cole (56 caps)
04. Joe Launchbury (28 Caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (42 Caps)
06. Chris Robsaw (42 Caps)
07. James Haskell (62 Caps)
08. Billy Vunipola (21 Caps)

It seems to me that for a long time we had packs with large numbers of players who had caps numbering in the 0-10 or in the teens. There is real experience starting to run through it and Hartley is part of this experience. Saying that I could be talking Poopie and Lawes and Haskell could well be swapped out for Kruis (10 caps) and Jack Clifford (0 Caps).

Talking about this ‘aggressive streak’, I think the England players may well be ANGRY in this tournament. They let themselves and the supporters down and have been laughed at the world over for the last three months. It would peeve me off if I were them...
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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 10:53 am

Strange decision and very harsh on Jamie George and Cowan Dickie, both have played very well whilst Hartley has been benched for Haywood.

In fact Eddie Jones became coach on the 20th of November and Hartley suffered concussion on the 7th.

Hartley is being picked on reputation or on the recommendation of the other coaches.

I am surprised he is in contention, he is a thug, he is not a rugby player. He has committed every heinous act and been banned from the game for it, totalling over a season of rugby on the sidelines.

This is a terrible example to English kids, a poor example of rewarding form to other England hookers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 10:55 am

What do you think of Cowan Dickies recent form maes? Is he playing well enough to be included on the bench?

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Post by munkian Thu 21 Jan 2016, 10:58 am

Breadvan wrote:
Shifty wrote:According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.

Alongside the likes of Ashton, Mike Brown, Robshaw,Farrell ppl on social media especailly love to hate. Anybody else and they'll be descibed as 'passionate' ;-)

I don't think anyone hates Wobshaw - he doesn't have a personality to hate.
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Post by BamBam Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:00 am

maestegmafia wrote:Strange decision and very harsh on Jamie George and Cowan Dickie, both have played very well whilst Hartley has been benched for Haywood.

In fact Eddie Jones became coach on the  20th of November and Hartley suffered concussion on the 7th.

Hartley is being picked on reputation or on the recommendation of the other coaches.

I am surprised he is in contention, he is a thug, he is not a rugby player. He has committed every heinous act and been banned from the game for it, totalling over a season of rugby on the sidelines.

This is a terrible example to English kids, a poor example of rewarding form to other England hookers.

For a thug who isn't a rugby player, he's a remarkably good hooker when on form

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Post by lostinwales Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:03 am

I'll believe it when it's official.

Hartely fit and on form would be a decent choice for now but not convinced he is either of those.


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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:06 am

munkian wrote:
Breadvan wrote:
Shifty wrote:According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.

Alongside the likes of Ashton, Mike Brown, Robshaw,Farrell ppl on social media especailly love to hate. Anybody else and they'll be descibed as 'passionate' ;-)

I don't think anyone hates Wobshaw - he doesn't have a personality to hate.

I agree...!

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you think of Cowan Dickies recent form maes? Is he playing well enough to be included on the bench?

If Hartley is nailed on starter I'd take George over Lcd on the bench.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:09 am

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you think of Cowan Dickies recent form maes? Is he playing well enough to be included on the bench?

If Hartley is nailed on starter I'd take George over Lcd on the bench.

What would you do if in Jones place? Considering you don't think Hartley should be there as he was injured and only recently back?

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Post by TightHEAD Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:10 am

maestegmafia wrote:
munkian wrote:
Breadvan wrote:
Shifty wrote:According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.

Alongside the likes of Ashton, Mike Brown, Robshaw,Farrell ppl on social media especailly love to hate. Anybody else and they'll be descibed as 'passionate' ;-)

I don't think anyone hates Wobshaw - he doesn't have a personality to hate.

I agree...!

Here we go again......... Rolling Eyes
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Post by Scottrf Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:11 am

It's kind of awkward timing. He stepped back from Saints captaincy, and has spent most of the season concussed. Now he will struggle to be a regular starter over Haywood. Has his form been better than Haywood at any point this season? I'd have to say no. It's a real risk to pick a captain when he's not really had much game time.

The problem is he does the basics of the position better than anyone else we have available. Saints regularly test him with difficult throws and he delivers as he did against Glasgow for 2 maul tries. Other players have been unreliable enough in this area that we actually have to change the pack to compensate. Clearly not ideal and completely limits you in anything you're trying to do there.

Clearly his attitude has gone too far at times, but IMO he does lift those around him. When the coach was changed I did think of Launchbury for captain but he's not had much experience there, and may be a longer term candidate. Eddie obviously wants an impact so isn't happy sticking with Robshaw.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you think of Cowan Dickies recent form maes? Is he playing well enough to be included on the bench?

As he has not played since mid november, hard to tell Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:17 am

Spoil sport LT, trying to lull maes into confirming he hasn't a clue what he's on about!

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:22 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you think of Cowan Dickies recent form maes? Is he playing well enough to be included on the bench?

If Hartley is nailed on starter I'd take George over Lcd on the bench.

What would you do if in Jones place? Considering you don't think Hartley should be there as he was injured and only recently back?

I wouldn't have picked two recently injured players and I wouldn't have taken Hartley let alone made him Captain.

There aren't a huge amount of options I admit, certainly not ones that worry opposition. George, Haywood and maybe Buchanan. Youngs set piece was an issue at the RWC, I can see why they have given him time to work on that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:23 am

Ha. Too late maes still. You haven't a clue an djust wanted to have a pop at Hartley.

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Too late maes still. You haven't a clue an djust wanted to have a pop at Hartley.

Sorry?

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Spoil sport LT, trying to lull maes into confirming he hasn't a clue what he's on about!

Ha - spotted that to! Looks like my prediction at the top of the post has come to pass Hartley set to be named England captain 1347041234

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:29 am

'Strange decision and very harsh on Jamie George and Cowan Dickie, both have played very well whilst Hartley has been benched for Haywood.'

It's almost as if you just picked the other 2 hookers and made that up seeing as CD has been out during the same period as Hartley and hasn't returned yet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:30 am

The best wums always do their research Trev, sadly lacking here.

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Post by beshocked Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:30 am

Cumbrian you forget that this is not an experienced Scottish side. England might even have more caps. Also the Scottish backrow have very few caps but they matched their more experienced Australian counterparts in the RWC. Experience of course can be useful but I think that England's best players in the last two 6 nations were new players - Burrell and Joseph respectively. Form must count for something too.




Scottrf Eddie Jones could well fall into the trap that Lancaster did, that is to heavily rely on Hartley too much. Hartley was Lancaster's first choice hooker but we saw what happened when Lancaster picked T.Youngs as starter in his absence and Webber as his 2nd choice.

Jamie George could have been further down the development line for England if Lancaster had shown more trust in him in the RWC.

It is dangerous to rely on the form on one player. If Eddie Jones picks Hartley as captain when he's not in form/fitness it makes him effectively untouchable.

How can England develop other hookers if Hartley is only relied on by the English management?

Other hookers cannot challenge Hartley if he's given a free pass regardless of fitness/form.

Eddie Jones said he would take a fresh approach but Hartley is not a fresh approach in my opinion, he's a known quantity, warts and all.


Oh and I should add that Jamie George outplayed the Irish captain,Rory Best on the weekend.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:34 am

I agree with you beshocked. I don't think his form or club position are solid enough to make the commitment at this stage. And I'm not sure his state of mind either. Maybe Eddie has assurances about those things, maybe it's just short term or maybe the reports aren't true.

If we played this weekend, George would probably be my starting hooker.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:36 am

Lancaster was swapping between the 2 as starters for a while though. Are you saying we need to develop 3 hookers with the same amount of starts and game time beshocked?

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Strange decision and very harsh on Jamie George and Cowan Dickie, both have played very well whilst Hartley has been benched for Haywood.'

It's almost as if you just picked the other 2 hookers and made that up seeing as CD has been out during the same period as Hartley and hasn't returned yet.


Do you think it is a good idea having two hookers in your squad that have been injured for the best part of three months?

Why in that case would you pick either of them over Jamie George....?

Not sure Eddie Jones is getting off on the right footing here. Maybe like Lancaster he is relying on other coaches more than he should???

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:43 am

But you've just said Cowan Dickie has been playing very well while hartleys been out? Very confused?!

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Post by munkian Thu 21 Jan 2016, 11:44 am

Best was awful in that game - even worse than his Lions performance.
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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you've just said Cowan Dickie has been playing very well while hartleys been out? Very confused?!

I think LCD is a good player. Has a lot of potential.

It's an interesting squad because in some ways they have selected some very exciting new talent, but there are a few guys in there that I don't think have deserved the faith being shown in them. In a few years England could be quite strong in the front row.

George for sure will get plenty of game time. Hartley won't last a whole game.

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Post by TightHEAD Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:04 pm

Nothing worse than armchair rugby coaches! Rolling Eyes

I trust Eddie to make the right call.
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Post by beshocked Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:06 pm

no 7 & 1/2 how many games has T.Youngs started at hooker when Hartley has been available? I think you'll find it's not many at all. Hartley was the clear no 1 of Lancaster.

I am saying that Lancaster should have given more opportunities to George when Hartley was banned from the RWC squad in particular. Webber was a farcical choice even though you defend Lancaster's decision. Youngs had to be molly coddled by Parling, just wasn't reliable enough as a starter.

Eddie Jones should not make the same mistake as Lancaster - he has to trust in Jamie George because he's playing well and showing the set piece proficiency England have been after. Saracens' set piece has been very strong and George has played his part well.

Munkian he was indeed. Of course you can't judge a player on one game but it's not a good match to have just before named captain!

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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:11 pm

I just don't think George has enough experience at international level to have proven himself. Once he's done that he should be selected. The only player in the squad that has that is Hartley really.

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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:15 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Nothing worse than armchair rugby coaches! Rolling Eyes

I trust Eddie to make the right call.

Aye and you trusted Lancaster, Jonson and Robinson before him.

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Post by munkian Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:16 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Nothing worse than armchair rugby coaches! Rolling Eyes

I trust Eddie to make the right call.

Aye and you trusted Lancaster, Jonson and Robinson before him.

laughing
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Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:16 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I just don't think George has enough experience at international level to have proven himself.  Once he's done that he should be selected.  The only player in the squad that has that is Hartley really.

With no Tom Youngs involved it looks like George will bench and will surely get the experience you think he needs.

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Hartley set to be named England captain Empty Re: Hartley set to be named England captain

Post by mikey_dragon Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:17 pm

munkian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Nothing worse than armchair rugby coaches! Rolling Eyes

I trust Eddie to make the right call.

Aye and you trusted Lancaster, Jonson and Robinson before him.

laughing

Lol.

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Hartley set to be named England captain Empty Re: Hartley set to be named England captain

Post by beshocked Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:18 pm

Hammerofthunor
How can a player prove themselves at international level if they are not given an opportunity?

England cannot have a fresh approach and ideas if they stick with all the same players that failed to win a GS under Lancaster.

England are 8th in the world. Plenty of improvement can be made and superior selection of players is part of that.

Hartley is the only player in the squad with experience because he's the only who has been trusted.

Hartley is not tearing it up in the AP and ERCC, he is struggling for form and fitness.

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Hartley set to be named England captain Empty Re: Hartley set to be named England captain

Post by maestegmafia Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:23 pm

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor
How can a player prove themselves at international level if they are not given an opportunity?

England cannot have a fresh approach and ideas if they stick with all the same players that failed to win a GS under Lancaster.

England are 8th in the world. Plenty of improvement can be made and superior selection of players is part of that.

Hartley is the only player in the squad with experience because he's the only who has been trusted.

Hartley is not tearing it up in the AP and ERCC, he is struggling for form and fitness.

And he admits he has huge problems with his temper, has sought help numerous times before, but still keeps head butting punching, biting and gouging.

I am amazed his inclusion is being seen as a positive by so many on here and in the press when there are other good players without atrocious discipline/temper problems

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Hartley set to be named England captain Empty Re: Hartley set to be named England captain

Post by beshocked Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:34 pm

maestegmafia completely agree.

It's not as even if he's kept a clean sheet last season. One red card and a headbutt.

The main argument is that it's not for England he's done these.

I find that logic a bit flawed. Should it really matter who he gouges and when? It's still gouging.

Does it matter which ref he swore at?

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Hartley set to be named England captain Empty Re: Hartley set to be named England captain

Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Jan 2016, 12:35 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But you've just said Cowan Dickie has been playing very well while hartleys been out? Very confused?!

I think LCD is a good player. Has a lot of potential.

It's an interesting squad because in some ways they have selected some very exciting new talent, but there are a few guys in there that I don't think have deserved the faith being shown in them. In a few years England could be quite strong in the front row.

George for sure will get plenty of game time. Hartley won't last a whole game.

Ah so it's potential you meant rather than playing well. I don't think we'll see any hooker last a whoel game.

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