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Hartley set to be named England captain

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Post by Shifty Thu 21 Jan 2016, 8:28 am

First topic message reminder :

According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.
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Post by carpet baboon Fri 22 Jan 2016, 9:53 am

If we are talking about leading by example surly Saracens should relinquish the prem title and there Europe spot for cheating hey beshocked? Or do we only want upstanding behaviour from the player's?
Or are double standards OK?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 22 Jan 2016, 9:53 am

beshocked wrote:Doctor grey you say that Hartley has been an effective leader at club level. Is getting sent off in an AP final and effectively costing your side the title something worthy of praise? Hartley has been stripped of the Saints captaincy because of his embarrassingly long disciplinary record.

Over a year of bans.

You are correct there isn't much leadership experience in the current England squad but a certified thug is not the answer.

Well past it you might well be accused of bias frequently and invented double standards. Don't see your point though.

Not surprised by that, you don't see anybody else' point.

Judge, jury and executioner when anyone is competing with a Sarrie for a place.

Are you suggesting that I invented double standards or that I am have invented certain double standards. I have to say that if it the former, you are greatly exaggerating my age. If it is the latter, well you have been on these boards more consistently than me and I always was a quick learner.
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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 9:56 am

I just find it interesting that the people who stand to win or lose most of all based on Hartley's performance chose to keep him as captain for 6 years. That is a long time.

It indicates that the comment on him losing the captaincy over discipline is most likely to be false

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Post by beshocked Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:06 am

no 7 & 1/2 it's everything. England need a captain that refs and players respect. Firstly England need to pick someone as captain who is playing well because a captain needs to lead by example with their performance. Hartley certainly doesn't fit that criteria at the moment.

scottrf perhaps stripped is the wrong word but he is no longer used as captain by Saints.

lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?

carpet baboon I have said this time and again - perhaps learn to read.

There is no proof of Saracens cheating. There is ample proof of Hartley's disciplinary record.

Evidence. It's what you need.

You have some posters have to accuse a club of cheating with no evidence but happy to defend a player who has been found guilty and banned for 54 weeks for breaking numerous rugby laws.

The difference is I have evidence on my side, you do not.

Well-past-it I see plenty of other people's points but only when there is some reasonable logic and evidence.

I believe in a little thing called evidence.

Hartley's disciplinary record is there for all to see. It's not speculation.

You call me judge,jury and executioner. Hartley is guilty, he isn't innocent till proven guilty or guilty till proven innocent.

lostinwales perhaps it suggests that there were few other candidates at Saints for captaincy.

Why did he lose the captaincy then? If not for his discipline? Why not stick with him? Afterall as you said they did for 6 years.

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Post by Cyril Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:11 am

It hardly needs saying that Hartley's disciplinary record for England is very, very good. He's possibly had one/two(?) yellow cards in all his time. He probably needs to be more aggressive for England if anything.

Other sides, for example, have had their international captain red carded for a spear tackle (costing them a place in the RWC final, perhaps?) but no criticism.

I don't give a fig about Hartley's club behaviour as long as he doesn't let England down. His fitness/form is another issue but little discussed here in all the hyperbole.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:14 am

beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?

26 weeks was when he was at Worcester. A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

Sure his disciplinary record is not great, but it did not cause him to be stripped of the Saints captaincy. Sometimes changes are needed as things get stale.

I have absolutely no issue with Hartley as skipper, so long as he deserves a starting place. I do not believe he is currently one of the two best hookers available to us, nor do I believe any leadership abilities outweigh this shortfall. In short i do not believe he should be in the squad - not because of his discipline but because of form.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:19 am

beshocked wrote:Why did he lose the captaincy then? If not for his discipline? Why not stick with him? Afterall as you said they did for 6 years.
He stepped down.

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Post by beshocked Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:21 am

Cyril we are not talking about other nations. We are talking about England captain.

Not sure biting someone can be deemed as very good but each to their own I guess.

Londontiger fair enough

You don't think his disciplinary record factored at all? I find it hard to believe even if I have no proof.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

scottrf okay fair enough. I didn't know that I admit. Surprised that Saints stuck with him but then again I don't think there seem to be many alternatives.

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Post by Cyril Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:24 am

beshocked wrote:Cyril we are not talking about other nations. We are talking about England captain.
You're worried about Hartley being a disciplinary liability for England when it's been proved over all his caps that he's most assuredly not. I was pointing out that other captains have put their sides in much worse positions than Hartley.

You can argue as much as you like about fitness and form (and I'd tend to agree that he's behind at least George on that) but in terms of discipline for England there really is no issue.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:30 am

I get LTs argument much more even if I believe he's still the best hooker we have. I just think if these discipinary issues are really issues he should be out of the squad altogether. If it isn't an issue for the team it isn't an issue for the captaincy. Still the best fit for me is Joe L.

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Post by beshocked Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:36 am

Cyril it's not just as a disciplinary liability, it's the whole package, it's reputation,form,fitness,discipline etc.

If Hartley was captain he would need respect of his fellow players and refs. Not easy to start on a positive footing if your fellow players don't think you warrant the spot (we won't know this of course but it could cause resentment), also he's verbally abused a ref, will refs at international level take him seriously?

Let's not forget the spotlight will be greater on Hartley. I doubt I will be the only person to not be too convinced by Hartley as captain even if I am in the minority. He would have a lot of proving to do.

It would also make me doubt the judgement of the likes of Borthwick and Gustard.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:38 am

It's quite simple, just make Danny Care captain.

He's the form 9

He's a club captain

He has no problem talking to refs

He seems popular within the squad

He's had a very good effect on Quins as a captain


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Post by Cyril Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:42 am

I'd be more than happy with Care or Youngs as captain (the other as VC). That way you're pretty much guaranteed that one of them will be on the pitch.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:43 am

I think having a firebrand such as Hartley as captain can work in England's favour. For all the "professionalism" shown by Lancaster's England, Robshaw's captaincy always stuck me as quiet, dull and not particularly effective. His decision making has been shown to be questionable (especially in close games) and whilst his dedication and unburstable engine deserve acclaim, he's not a leader in my eyes - more someone who took the job because someone else wasn't available.

If nothing else, Hartley will be more vocal and may be able to rally the troops whilst the chips are down. Robshaw was very much like Borthwick in this respect - when things weren't going England's way he seemed confused as to how to sort the situation. I think to go back to Robshaw as captain would be a backward step and not something I think Jones would consider anyway.

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Post by eirebilly Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:45 am

yappysnap wrote:It's quite simple, just make Danny Care captain.

He's the form 9

He's a club captain

He has no problem talking to refs

He seems popular within the squad

He's had a very good effect on Quins as a captain


Never even considered him but that is actually a fair call. Is he an automatic selection though?
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Post by ebop Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:48 am

I'll fall off my chair if Hartley is made captain. It'd also make me question Jones' sanity but he's always had those crazy eyes. Thinking about the great captains, they're usually ice cold butter wouldn't melt devious types. Hartley is devious but he's damn hot and he'd be more a train than a light at the end of the tunnel. Anyways, wouldn't mind if he was captain, it'd be interesting.
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Post by Cyril Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:55 am

Even if captaincy is a bit of a conundrum it sounds like a core leadership team is forming anyway (Care/Youngs, Robshaw, Brown, Hartley). Players like Launchberry and Haskell are capable of taking charge too. Marler has captained Quins. Cole is experienced but seems pretty quiet.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:56 am

Clifford, Itoje, Kvesic as well in and around.

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Post by Cyril Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:58 am

Yep, there's some good heads on young shoulders in this squad. Aviva sides need to take some serious credit for bringing this guys on, giving them experience and responsibility.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Fri 22 Jan 2016, 11:03 am

Judging by the hoo haa looks like Dylan's weaving his particular magic already, and he's not even appointed yet. Let's hope EJ's choice bamboozles the oppo players as much as the fans, could be an inspired choice. My guess is it'll only be for the 6N (assuming it's not all a double bluff by Eddie).
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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 11:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?

26 weeks was when he was at Worcester. A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

Sure his disciplinary record is not great, but it did not cause him to be stripped of the Saints captaincy. Sometimes changes are needed as things get stale.

I have absolutely no issue with Hartley as skipper, so long as he deserves a starting place. I do not believe he is currently one of the two best hookers available to us, nor do I believe any leadership abilities outweigh this shortfall. In short i do not believe he should be in the squad - not because of his discipline but because of form.

That's it in a nutshell. It is just not a black and white case.

If you actually bother to look at Hartley's history in a little detail before jumping on the 'Dylan is evil thug' bandwagon and writing false statements that feed into that bandwagon you see someone who is one of our most experienced international forwards and a long serving experienced captain from one of the top teams in the AP. ( And I am sure he'd be eating more babies if he was doing less charity work.) He could do the job. In practice he would probably not be any more likely to get the card that costs us than any other 6N player despite the baggage,- as shown by what happened with Warburton.

I have not seen any evidence that other players have an issue with him. Referees, who knows, but he will have played under the supervision of plenty as Saints captain. With his reputation he does get the book thrown at him when he loses it, but you'd have to ask a Saints fan to see if they think he is a liability with referees.

You'd be sure if he ever did get a card as captain there would be just a little fuss.

Having said that I am with LT (and a few others) I don't think he is currently doing enough to be in the squad.

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Post by beshocked Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:08 pm

lostinwales if you support a thug like Hartley, you are entitled to. Doesn't mean I will.

As for false statements - plenty of those floating around, at least I admitted I got it wrong about Hartley not being stripped of his captaincy, most other posters don't admit it.

Doesn't change the fact that he has an appalling disciplinary record. 6 incidents of thuggery - 54 weeks of bans.

You can twist it to fit your view of Hartley being hard done by only so far.

Long serving experienced captain who cost his side an AP title by abusing a ref in the final. Experienced international forward who bit an opposing player.

You can believe he's a boy scout if you want, doesn't make it true.

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?
A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

This is one of the most prolific points regarding why Hartley's behaviour effects his international career. He may have only received one of his many bans in the six nations, he may not get in hot water as much at international level but his bans regularly make him unavailable.

So many posters on his thread now employing Hartley as captain were the same who were faulting His omission from England's failure at the RWC under Lancaster. He was omitted because he was banned from playing due to his idiotic behaviour.

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Post by carpet baboon Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:12 pm

Hang on beshocked I can read very well thank you. No your right nothing was proved in public. We all know they are guilty. So surely being a crusader for what's morally upstanding you don't want them representing your country in Europe? Surely that's bad for the kids to see wanton disregard of the rules go unpunished?

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Post by beshocked Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:24 pm

carpet baboon have you not heard of innocent till proven guilty?

You have no facts/no evidence. Just speculation. When you have evidence/facts then I might well agree with you.

I believe in evidence. You'll find that I thought the ban on Ashton was justified - the evidence is there, he touched Marshall's face.

I have had no sympathy for Ashton's stupidity.

Even if you believe that Saracens have broken the salary cap rules, no proof of course. What's got to do with the players? They aren't part of the accounts team - not to my knowledge anyhow. You would punish a player who is in likelihood innocent?

You said the kids see wanton disregard of the rules go unpunished - the kids don't see anything because no one knows what has/hasn't been broken. No facts as of yet.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:27 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?
A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

This is one of the most prolific points regarding why Hartley's behaviour effects his international career. He may have only received one of his many bans in the six nations, he may not get in hot water as much at international level but his bans regularly make him unavailable.

So many posters on his thread now employing Hartley as captain were the same who were faulting His omission from England's failure at the RWC under Lancaster. He was omitted because he was banned from playing due to his idiotic behaviour.

He was banned for the 1st game of the RWC which certainly meant that we might have been short at hooked if either of the remaining 2 (whoever they were) had got injured in the run up. There was also a strong impression that they had also dropped him as a further punishment for his offense. As Beshocked remarked earlier his recent international form had not been fantastic so it was potentially not a great loss.

On form he's a good hooker. Form counts. He's not been on great form and he's been injured (yet another concussion victim) that is what should have been debated here.

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Post by carpet baboon Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:28 pm

I belive in evidence to beshocked
They are guilty. And bullies. And in my own personal opinion a disgrace.
I feel bad for the players. Deep down they will know that it was won dishonestly.

And back on subject.
I think he could be a good captain

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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:37 pm

beshocked wrote:lostinwales if you support a thug like Hartley, you are entitled to. Doesn't mean I will.

As for false statements - plenty of those floating around, at least I admitted I got it wrong about Hartley not being stripped of his captaincy, most other posters don't admit it.

Doesn't change the fact that he has an appalling disciplinary record. 6 incidents of thuggery - 54 weeks of bans.

You can twist it to fit your view of Hartley being hard done by only so far.

Long serving experienced captain who cost his side an AP title by abusing a ref in the final. Experienced international forward who bit an opposing player.

You can believe he's a boy scout if you want, doesn't make it true.

He doesn't have to be a boy scout to be an effective captain. You could argue we have been using the boy scout/captain thing for a few years and that it hasn't quite worked.

I do think he has been unlucky at times. I think his reputation has led to getting strong sanctions which in turn has made his reputation worse (vicious circle). But he is also ultimately responsible for being an idiot and getting himself in those situations in the first place. I just am not sure that, going forward, the bans he has had make him in practice any more of a risk than any other player.

Cian Healy is another interesting example. At his best absolutely one of the best props on the planet. Also prone to extended periods of 'red mist' the like of which you seldom see in the 6N. But they still do not happen regularly and if he's on form you'd pick him because the benefits outweigh the risks

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Post by beshocked Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:39 pm

carpet baboon you say you believe in evidence yet you have none. You say they are guilty yet have shown no evidence. You can believe they are bullies and a disgrace but you only have only hyperbole and speculation as your two allies.

I just see your comments as a petty way of deflecting from my criticism of Hartley.

The difference between you and me is I have evidence on my side, you just have speculation.

I will concede that you might be right but then again you might not in regards to alleged cheating. As of yet there is insufficient evidence to come to a fitting conclusion.

lostinwales I would suggest that Hartley hasn't been in good international form for over a year. I look at Hartley as captain as a complete package - not just discipline,form,reputation,fitness - everything. It all matters. Not just one factor.

I have focussed perhaps too much on discipline but that's only because there are some posters steadfastly refusing to acknowledge Hartley's poor discipline as a potential problem.

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Post by offload Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:41 pm

Given the lack of suitable qualified candidates to lead the English rugby team, surely Jones should appoint someone just for the 6N's and see what happens.

It's pretty damning that England don't have a forward who is a) guaranteed his place and b) a good candidate for captain.
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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:42 pm

lostinwales wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?
A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

This is one of the most prolific points regarding why Hartley's behaviour effects his international career. He may have only received one of his many bans in the six nations, he may not get in hot water as much at international level but his bans regularly make him unavailable.

So many posters on his thread now employing Hartley as captain were the same who were faulting His omission from England's failure at the RWC under Lancaster. He was omitted because he was banned from playing due to his idiotic behaviour.

He was banned for the 1st game of the RWC which certainly meant that we might have been short at hooked if either of the remaining 2 (whoever they were) had got injured in the run up. There was also a strong impression that they had also dropped him as a further punishment for his offense. As Beshocked remarked earlier his recent international form had not been fantastic so it was potentially not a great loss.

On form he's a good hooker. Form counts. He's not been on great form and he's been injured (yet another concussion victim) that is what should have been debated here.

So what you are saying is:-

1. He hasn't played since November the 7th due to concussion

2. He hasn't played well for a while, particularly at international level

3. Although his disciplinary record as the worst behaved international player in the modern era doesn't matter, even if it does mean that he misses major internationals like the the RWC, summer and Lions tours because he gets regularly banned for being an idiot at club level.

I still don't think thee is a case for him to be in the squad let alone captain. There hasn't been for a few seasons.

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:43 pm

offload wrote:Given the lack of suitable qualified candidates to lead the English rugby team, surely Jones should appoint someone just for the 6N's and see what happens.

It's pretty damning that England don't have a forward who is a) guaranteed his place and b) a good candidate for captain.

Mike Brown is about the only certainty in the team.

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Post by offload Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:46 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
offload wrote:Given the lack of suitable qualified candidates to lead the English rugby team, surely Jones should appoint someone just for the 6N's and see what happens.

It's pretty damning that England don't have a forward who is a) guaranteed his place and b) a good candidate for captain.

Mike Brown is about the only certainty in the team.

Yes, a humble statesman and a first class captain in the making. Erm
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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 12:51 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?
A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

This is one of the most prolific points regarding why Hartley's behaviour effects his international career. He may have only received one of his many bans in the six nations, he may not get in hot water as much at international level but his bans regularly make him unavailable.

So many posters on his thread now employing Hartley as captain were the same who were faulting His omission from England's failure at the RWC under Lancaster. He was omitted because he was banned from playing due to his idiotic behaviour.

He was banned for the 1st game of the RWC which certainly meant that we might have been short at hooked if either of the remaining 2 (whoever they were) had got injured in the run up. There was also a strong impression that they had also dropped him as a further punishment for his offense. As Beshocked remarked earlier his recent international form had not been fantastic so it was potentially not a great loss.

On form he's a good hooker. Form counts. He's not been on great form and he's been injured (yet another concussion victim) that is what should have been debated here.

So what you are saying is:-

1. He hasn't played since November the 7th due to concussion

2. He hasn't played well for a while, particularly at international level

3. Although his disciplinary record as the worst behaved international player in the modern era doesn't matter, even if it does mean that he misses major internationals like the the RWC, summer and Lions tours because he gets regularly banned for being an idiot at club level.

I still don't think thee is a case for him to be in the squad let alone captain. There hasn't been for a few seasons.

Not far off. He should not have got picked in the squad in the first place on current form.

As for discipline he certainly has had his moments Doh but he isn't actually a guaranteed penalty /YC merchant. As for leadership you can see why he's talked about because although there are some good players around the England squad ones who are potential captains are thin on the ground.

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 1:04 pm

lostinwales wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:lostinwales 6 years of captaincy and 54 weeks of bans, doesn't quite work does it?
A further 10 weeks saw him miss only international duty and hurt only him not Northampton.

This is one of the most prolific points regarding why Hartley's behaviour effects his international career. He may have only received one of his many bans in the six nations, he may not get in hot water as much at international level but his bans regularly make him unavailable.

So many posters on his thread now employing Hartley as captain were the same who were faulting His omission from England's failure at the RWC under Lancaster. He was omitted because he was banned from playing due to his idiotic behaviour.

He was banned for the 1st game of the RWC which certainly meant that we might have been short at hooked if either of the remaining 2 (whoever they were) had got injured in the run up. There was also a strong impression that they had also dropped him as a further punishment for his offense. As Beshocked remarked earlier his recent international form had not been fantastic so it was potentially not a great loss.

On form he's a good hooker. Form counts. He's not been on great form and he's been injured (yet another concussion victim) that is what should have been debated here.

So what you are saying is:-

1. He hasn't played since November the 7th due to concussion

2. He hasn't played well for a while, particularly at international level

3. Although his disciplinary record as the worst behaved international player in the modern era doesn't matter, even if it does mean that he misses major internationals like the the RWC, summer and Lions tours because he gets regularly banned for being an idiot at club level.

I still don't think thee is a case for him to be in the squad let alone captain. There hasn't been for a few seasons.

Not far off. He should not have got picked in the squad in the first place on current form.

As for discipline he certainly has had his moments  Doh but he isn't actually a guaranteed penalty /YC merchant. As for leadership you can see why he's talked about because although there are some good players around the England squad ones who are potential captains are thin on the ground.



From the England rugby fan friends I have spoken to the appointment of Eddie Jones was seen with a lot more excitement than every predecessor back to Jack Rowell, they are predominantly Bath RFC fans.

They were hoping for a fresh start and that Jones appointment meant that the RFU had learnt, from the last twelve years or so, how to get the ball rolling again.

Lots of good boysterous chat in the media about dog, niggle and spirit, hard evidence to judge this era starts in murrayfirld in a fortnight.

Though somewhat despondently, the elevation of out of form players on past glories a long with indiscipline and thuggish behaviour being apparently rewarded as an asset not a hindrance are baffling.

Looks like a minor step forward in some respects but in others there is no change.


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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 1:15 pm

We'll be able to see what difference Jones has made in a few weeks. For whatever reason England did seriously under perform at the RWC but the team has been decent for a couple of years and the individuals who were at the RWC who have been retained are playing well.

There hasn't been a need for a major overhaul in the same way that Lancaster needed to do when he came in. It was a very young team at the RWC and It has often been said that the young guys starting to make a mark are more likely to be at their peak in 2019. There are names in the current squad and on its fringes that we'll argue over, but that is the same for every country, and just a bit more worse in England because we have a big playing base (and one that is looking a stronger year on year)

The only tangible evidence we have so far about the new model England is the way that  Jones dealt with the EPS selection, and that it did not match the rumors but was generally closer to what many of us would have hoped for.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 1:19 pm

You would definitely not see a guy coming back from injury included in the Welsh squad. And you definitely wouldn't get a guy who was red carded in an important international included in the squad. And if that guy was chosen for some bizarre reason he definitely wouldn't be captain. This is why we should have gone for Gatland!

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 1:21 pm

I agree Maesteg I don't see with the players he's chosen how it will significantly improve. Hartley will obviously booster the set piece but the lineout doesn't look threatening at all and I can't see it being a deadly weapon ala the boks.

How people think Haskell and Robshaw simply swapping jersey's will all of a sudden bring a new dynamism to the team is laughable.
I think they have a decent shout at the title; good schedule, half decent team but I can't see them winning all their games and think Scotland, France, Ireland and Wales all have good sides and decent shots at beating them. Very open 6N anyhow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 1:27 pm

I'm not sure I've seen anyone thrilled by Haskell at 7.

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You would definitely not see a guy coming back from injury included in the Welsh squad. And you definitely wouldn't get a guy who was red carded in an important international included in the squad. And if that guy was chosen for some bizarre reason he definitely wouldn't be captain. This is why we should have gone for Gatland!

Comparing Warburton to Hartley is moronic. I accept your observations but Warburtons single red card was a decision made about a situation out of character and rather a referee implying the letter of the law. Hartley has been banned from rugby fifty one weeks less than Hartley.

He is known through rugby as a captain and player of good conduct and fairness. You have to agree the Hartley is the polar opposite.


Last edited by maestegmafia on Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not sure I've seen anyone thrilled by Haskell at 7.
I would imagine a good number of you are thrilled at Clifford though. He looks a fine openside.

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Post by nlpnlp Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:21 pm

I think Hartley felt 'strangled' by Lancaster's discipline regime.  I think Eddie Jones is a bit more of a realist (and a former hooker) and I think has already said he wants a more aggressive front 5 performance from England.  Hartley's record for England has been pretty good and I am sure if he starts picking up yellow cards he will be dropped by Jones.  If George does consistently outperform him, or Hartley does not come up to scratch then again I think Jones will drop him.  If the World Cup showed us one thing, it did show how much we missed Hartley at hooker. A captain should be droppable - something that you never felt was the case with Lancaster and Robshaw.

Personally I don't want to stand on my moral soapbox.  Is there any player at international level who has not thrown a punch, stamped on a player in a ruck, tackled an opponent in the air, etc, etc.  If we were picking England players on how upright and moral they were, then Mother Theresa would have had 200 England caps.  Over the past 5 or 6 years, Hartley has shown himself to be the best England hooker and if he can do the job for England then he is fine for me.  If Jones does pick him as captain, I am sure he is not appointing him to take us to the world cup, it will be on a tournament by tournament basis.  There are currently no credible alternatives as captain, given that Robshaw is tainted goods and struggling to hold down a place in the team.  I am sure that part of what Jones will do is to try and grow some players into captaincy material - something Lancaster singularly failed to do.

I am not sure anyone other than Brand Haskell (or Warburton, Hardie, O'Brien, etc) is thrilled by Haskell at 7.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:23 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You would definitely not see a guy coming back from injury included in the Welsh squad. And you definitely wouldn't get a guy who was red carded in an important international included in the squad. And if that guy was chosen for some bizarre reason he definitely wouldn't be captain. This is why we should have gone for Gatland!

Comparing Warburton to Hartley is moronic. I accept your observations but Warburtons single yellow card was a decision made about a situation out of character and rather a referee implying the letter of the law. Hartley has been banned from rugby fifty one weeks less than Hartley.

He is known through rugby as a captain and player of good conduct and fairness. You have to agree the Hartley is the polar opposite.

Oh I didn't realise but you're right those do relate to Warburton!

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Post by nlpnlp Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:32 pm

I think the truth is neither Warburton is a saint, nor Hartley a complete sinner. Anyway as they say God loves a sinner who repents - so making Hartley captain of England could be just what he needs to become a player of good conduct and fairness.

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:33 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I think Hartley felt 'strangled' by Lancaster's discipline regime.  I think Eddie Jones is a bit more of a realist (and a former hooker) and I think has already said he wants a more aggressive front 5 performance from England.  Hartley's record for England has been pretty good and I am sure if he starts picking up yellow cards he will be dropped by Jones.  If George does consistently outperform him, or Hartley does not come up to scratch then again I think Jones will drop him.  If the World Cup showed us one thing, it did show how much we missed Hartley at hooker.  A captain should be droppable - something that you never felt was the case with Lancaster and Robshaw.

Personally I don't want to stand on my moral soapbox.  Is there any player at international level who has not thrown a punch, stamped on a player in a ruck, tackled an opponent in the air, etc, etc.  If we were picking England players on how upright and moral they were, then Mother Theresa would have had 200 England caps.  Over the past 5 or 6 years, Hartley has shown himself to be the best England hooker and if he can do the job for England then he is fine for me.  If Jones does pick him as captain, I am sure he is not appointing him to take us to the world cup, it will be on a tournament by tournament basis.  There are currently no credible alternatives as captain, given that Robshaw is tainted goods and struggling to hold down a place in the team.  I am sure that part of what Jones will do is to try and grow some players into captaincy material - something Lancaster singularly failed to do.

I am not sure anyone other than Brand Haskell (or Warburton, Hardie, O'Brien, etc) is thrilled by Haskell at 7.

I think when of the preeminent points continuously ratified by your mates is that Hartley is far from guaranteed his position as well, considering his lack of form/playing time.

In fact I think Mike Brown and maybe Dan Cole are the only players guaranteed their selection.

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Post by maestegmafia Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:34 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I think the truth is neither Warburton is a saint, nor Hartley a complete sinner.  Anyway as they say God loves a sinner who repents - so making Hartley captain of England could be just what he needs to become a player of good conduct and fairness.

Does that not say to future England players that they can misbehave as much as they want on the pitch and it will not affect their careers?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:37 pm

Who cares.

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Post by Scottrf Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:39 pm

maestegmafia wrote:In fact I think Mike Brown and maybe Dan Cole are the only players guaranteed their selection.
Brookes was on better form than Cole IMO before injury.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:44 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:I think the truth is neither Warburton is a saint, nor Hartley a complete sinner.  Anyway as they say God loves a sinner who repents - so making Hartley captain of England could be just what he needs to become a player of good conduct and fairness.

Does that not say to future England players that they can misbehave as much as they want on the pitch and it will not affect their careers?

If they are a liability they shouldn't get picked. The argument over DH is how much of a liability he is.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 22 Jan 2016, 2:49 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I think Hartley felt 'strangled' by Lancaster's discipline regime.  I think Eddie Jones is a bit more of a realist (and a former hooker) and I think has already said he wants a more aggressive front 5 performance from England.  Hartley's record for England has been pretty good and I am sure if he starts picking up yellow cards he will be dropped by Jones.  If George does consistently outperform him, or Hartley does not come up to scratch then again I think Jones will drop him.  If the World Cup showed us one thing, it did show how much we missed Hartley at hooker.  A captain should be droppable - something that you never felt was the case with Lancaster and Robshaw.
...

How many times did Robshaw seriously play badly enough to not be considered for selection? Very few.

There are arguments over his leadership but he often seemed unlucky in that the contentious decisions he made just seemed dumb in hindsight, but as a performer he has been very consistent

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