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Hartley set to be named England captain

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Post by Shifty Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:28 am

First topic message reminder :

According to the news Hartley is set to be England captain. I think this is great news! The non English amongst us can get back to disliking them.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:38 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 how many games has T.Youngs started at hooker when Hartley has been available? I think you'll find it's not many at all. Hartley was the clear no 1 of Lancaster.

I am saying that Lancaster should have given more opportunities to George when Hartley was banned from the RWC squad in particular. Webber was a farcical choice even though you defend Lancaster's decision. Youngs had to be molly coddled by Parling, just wasn't reliable enough as a starter.

Eddie Jones should not make the same mistake as Lancaster - he has to trust in Jamie George because he's playing well and showing the set piece proficiency England have been after. Saracens' set piece has been very strong and George has played his part well.

Munkian he was indeed. Of course you can't judge a player on one game but it's not a good match to have just before named captain!

Fair enough, but I thought your point was about depth if Hartley wasn't available. Just interested to know how you'd go about it. Presumably you'd have to have Hartley as a constant in the starting lineup or on the bench and swap between George and LCD (or another) to ensure you always had experience there?

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Post by Breadvan Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm

The only issue is his form, not his disciplinary record, which I'm sure you'll copy n paste in at some stage. If he is named capt them it could work for Hartley or fail spectaculary for him and EJ judgement.
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Post by maestegmafia Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But you've just said Cowan Dickie has been playing very well while hartleys been out? Very confused?!

I think LCD is a good player. Has a lot of potential.

It's an interesting squad because in some ways they have selected some very exciting new talent, but there are a few guys in there that I don't think have deserved the faith being shown in them. In a few years England could be quite strong in the front row.

George for sure will get plenty of game time. Hartley won't last a whole game.

Ah so it's potential you meant rather than playing well. I don't think we'll see any hooker last a whoel game.

No LCD has played really well. He has potential as an international.

As I said personally I would have rewarded hookers who have been fit and playing well. England have plenty of experience in their potential front five to blood new hookers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:43 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Nothing worse than armchair rugby coaches! Rolling Eyes

I trust Eddie to make the right call.

Aye and you trusted Lancaster, Jonson and Robinson before him.

And Ashton. This is the thing which confuses me though. The majority f the time I didn't think England had the players to mount decent or sustained challenges through those periods of coaching and most did a pretty good job. You seem to be suggesting they should have been picking up trophies though? Just so I know how to reply to the arrogance claims in the future.

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Post by maestegmafia Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:44 pm

Breadvan wrote:The only issue is his form, not his disciplinary record, which I'm sure you'll copy n paste in at some stage. If he is named capt them it could work for Hartley or fail spectaculary for him and EJ judgement.

How can a disciplinary record like Hartleys not be a problem?

He has missed a year of rugby due to band in his career so far.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But you've just said Cowan Dickie has been playing very well while hartleys been out? Very confused?!

I think LCD is a good player. Has a lot of potential.

It's an interesting squad because in some ways they have selected some very exciting new talent, but there are a few guys in there that I don't think have deserved the faith being shown in them. In a few years England could be quite strong in the front row.

George for sure will get plenty of game time. Hartley won't last a whole game.

Ah so it's potential you meant rather than playing well. I don't think we'll see any hooker last a whoel game.

No LCD has played really well. He has potential as an international.

As I said personally I would have rewarded hookers who have been fit and playing well. England have plenty of experience in their potential front five to blood new hookers.

Yeah like you said LCD has to feel hard done to as he was playing really well while Hartley was out. I think I'll take your opinion with a pinch of salt!

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:51 pm

Beshocked you are being contradictory, remember your comments about Daley etc. as international kickers. It appears that playing for Sarries induces you with international experience that you cannot get with other clubs. Two half seasons and he has the experience to be a starter in an international side?

MM if you look at the list of incidents that Hartley has been banned for without your dragon coloured specs on, the head butt he was banned for was not a head butt at all, he touched his head against George who didn't even react to it, most posters on here, even the traditional wummers agreed it was totally out of proportion to the incident as the Swinton punishment yesterday showed, a deliberate punch that blew Hayward's eye up like a balloon gets one week. Biting, what would you do if fish hooked again a decision that was more about politics than common sense. Gouging, there was doubt about it, but I will give you that one.

LCD playing very well? On his Playstation possibly, he has been out longer than Hartley. EJ is really taking a risk there with both Hartley and the likely bench choice coming back from injury.

Well unlikely bench choice, just wanted to wind up a certain person who believes JG is second only to MV and BV as crucial England players.

If one of them does fail to make it, does that mean he will call up Haywood, that will strip Saints of both tightheads and both hookers at a crucial time of the season
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Post by beshocked Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:51 pm

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/9868612/dylan-hartleys-rap-sheet

Breadvan you don't think his discipline is an issue?

54 weeks of bans - impressive.

Also the variety - gouging,biting,punching,elbowing,headbutting and abusing the ref.

One of them was at international level too.

no 7 & 1/2 I would start George with Hartley on the bench vs Scotland.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:55 pm

Yeah I get that beshocked, very fair call I think. Both very strong contenders though I'd probably go Hartley, not much in it. But there is the point behind it how do we prevent something like the WC where it was a perceived problem of depth. George is going to take some time to get experience; what's the best way to build that while keeping the experience of Hartley and giving time to another in case Hartley is injured?

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Post by lostinwales Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:56 pm

beshocked wrote:http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/9868612/dylan-hartleys-rap-sheet

Breadvan you don't think his discipline is an issue?

54 weeks of bans - impressive.

Also the variety - gouging,biting,punching,elbowing,headbutting and abusing the ref.

One of them was at international level too.

no 7 & 1/2 I would start George with Hartley on the bench vs Scotland.

One of each - Maybe he has been learning the hard way Run

Seriously he had been dumb, he has also built up a reputation which doesn't help when some of his actions are judged (as WIP says so much better above). But I don't think that discipline is as much of an issue as has been made out.

I do think that current form is however much more of an issue

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Post by beshocked Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:00 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Beshocked you are being contradictory, remember your comments about Daley etc. as international kickers. It appears that playing for Sarries induces you with international experience that you cannot get with other clubs. Two half seasons and he has the experience to be a starter in an international side?

MM if you look at the list of incidents that Hartley has been banned for without your dragon coloured specs on, the head butt he was banned for was not a head butt at all, he touched his head against George who didn't even react to it, most posters on here, even the traditional wummers agreed it was totally out of proportion to the incident as the Swinton punishment yesterday showed, a deliberate punch that blew Hayward's eye up like a balloon gets one week. Biting, what would you do if fish hooked again a decision that was more about politics than common sense. Gouging, there was doubt about it, but I will give you that one.

LCD playing very well? On his Playstation possibly, he has been out longer than Hartley. EJ is really taking a risk there with both Hartley and the likely bench choice coming back from injury.

Well unlikely bench choice, just wanted to wind up a certain person who believes JG is second only to MV and BV as crucial England players.

If one of them does fail to make it, does that mean he will call up Haywood, that will strip Saints of both tightheads and both hookers at a crucial time of the season

Well Past it would probably help if you learn to read.

As I said that Daly needs to prove himself at international level. So does George. The only way these players can prove themselves is if they are picked. Daly has played no international rugby, at least George was in the RWC squad and played most of the game vs Uruguay.

George is the form hooker in England, he's got some international experience, admittedly still mostly unproven.

George didn't react because he's one of the good guys. He doesn't need to act like Hartley, he does his talking on the pitch. Doesn't spend over a year banned. Hartley tried to wind up George, it backfired. George is impervious to it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:04 pm

The vast majority of those bans were quite harsh. His rep was used against him when deciding whether he was guilty which is wrong, should be used against him if found guilty.

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Post by Breadvan Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:09 pm

The issue on this thread is more about Hartleys form than his record which will be a problem if EJ makes him captain as It'll be dragged up everywhere and be a sideshow to every decision, action and play Hartley is involved in. Maye EJ doesn't worry about it but I hoped he's sat him down and given him fair warning. I'd have George starting anyway..
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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The vast majority of those bans were quite harsh.  His rep was used against him when deciding whether he was guilty which is wrong, should be used against him if found guilty.

At the citings were we ? Thats pure speculation on your part there.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:13 pm

Yes, it's my opinion. Majority were soft decisions that could go either way.

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Post by lostinwales Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:15 pm

munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The vast majority of those bans were quite harsh.  His rep was used against him when deciding whether he was guilty which is wrong, should be used against him if found guilty.

At the citings were we ? Thats pure speculation on your part there.

It is another view. There is plenty of speculation as to him being a thug on this site also

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Post by maestegmafia Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:16 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

MM if you look at the list of incidents that Hartley has been banned for without your dragon coloured specs on, the head butt he was banned for was not a head butt at all, he touched his head against George who didn't even react to it, most posters on here, even the traditional wummers agreed it was totally out of proportion to the incident as the Swinton punishment yesterday showed, a deliberate punch that blew Hayward's eye up like a balloon gets one week. Biting, what would you do if fish hooked again a decision that was more about politics than common sense. Gouging, there was doubt about it, but I will give you that one.

LCD playing very well? On his Playstation possibly, he has been out longer than Hartley. EJ is really taking a risk there with both Hartley and the likely bench choice coming back from injury.

Well unlikely bench choice, just wanted to wind up a certain person who believes JG is second only to MV and BV as crucial England players.

If one of them does fail to make it, does that mean he will call up Haywood, that will strip Saints of both tightheads and both hookers at a crucial time of the season

He hasn't got the referees benefit of the doubt when it comes to a referee making decisions and rightly so with his history.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:17 pm

Yes lost, as maes proves there. Some would prefer a different set of rules applied. i don't think they should.

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Post by beshocked Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:19 pm



no 7 & 1/2 a repeat offender is treated harsher, it's normal. Hartley could just stop breaking the rules. Many players don't have difficulty staying on the right side of the law.

Yet another farcical opinion from you. I find it hard to take you seriously.

Breadvan when you make a serial offender like Hartley captain you are sending a message out to everyone - do you think it's a good one?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:20 pm

Think I have to echo the feelings.

On top form and fitness Hartley is good. But hes barely played this season and for me the hooker spot should be Jamie George all the way!


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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:22 pm

Repeat offender should be punished more severely, but shouldn't be held to a different standard in relation to judging whether an offence has occurred. If you disagree with that I can't agree.

How would you go about giving that experience beshocked?

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Post by Scottrf Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:24 pm

beshocked wrote:

no 7 & 1/2 a repeat offender is treated harsher, it's normal.
When deciding the punishment, yes. Shouldn't be the case when deciding if an offense if worthy of a punishment. Farrell struck Wood twice while Wood was defenseless on the floor earlier this season. Not even an overturned penalty. Imagine if Hartley did that. Imagine if Hartley pushed Wayne Barnes, would that be a penalty only? Same with his 'strike' on the Leicester player, he was basically freeing his arm. The 'headbutt', OK silly to get himself in that situation but that squaring up happens fairly often? Was hardly a butt.

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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:27 pm

lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The vast majority of those bans were quite harsh.  His rep was used against him when deciding whether he was guilty which is wrong, should be used against him if found guilty.

At the citings were we ? Thats pure speculation on your part there.

It is another view. There is plenty of speculation as to him being a thug on this site also

There's no speculation- people DO think he is a thug based on evidence of this thuggish behavior.

Not sure where you are going with this one ?
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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:49 pm

I think making Hartley captain is an awful decision, only to be topped by the selection of Farrell at 12.

His indiscipline is a massive problem for me. The sheer volume of bans and range of hideous offences shows to me that he has yet to grow up as a player and as a man. His lack of respect of refs has also surfaced on several occassions. I also think he fails the "does he make the 1st XV test" as well - I'd go with Jamie George personally, based on form this season. He links well with Kruis as well.

I'd have gone with Launchbury, failing which I'd have appointed Robshaw as captain for the 6 Nations.

I generally like the squad Jones has picked, but this for me is a duff call.

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Post by maestegmafia Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:54 pm

munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The vast majority of those bans were quite harsh.  His rep was used against him when deciding whether he was guilty which is wrong, should be used against him if found guilty.

At the citings were we ? Thats pure speculation on your part there.

It is another view. There is plenty of speculation as to him being a thug on this site also

There's no speculation- people DO think he is a thug based on evidence of this thuggish behavior.

Not sure where you are going with this one ?

Exactly right.

It is unfortunate that he is in a predicament where, in some people's opinion, he is unlikely to get a fair hearing on or off the pitch but he has created his reputation and he is very aware of it. That is not a situation you ideally want your captain to be in at a major championships.

As stated above by a few posters, George deserves the shirt, Haywood has played well enough to get a look in too.

I can understand that the new coach wants his team to have a tough edge but there is a difference between an edge and thuggish stupidity.

I am continually surprised how many people ignore and excuse the fact he is an exponent of something most true fans hate about the game.

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Post by Knowsit17 Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:56 pm

All I can say is I hope this happens. I hope England name a skipper who wasn't to be seen during the WC due to his pathetic disciplinary record. I hope they make the step of replacing a mature leader in Robshaw (who at the least has his head screwed on disciplinary-wise) to someone with virtually the opposite reputation; a notorious hothead during certain big games. I can only see positive omens in such an appointment for Wales' chances this 6N and, overall, their chances against England over the next 4 years if Hartley is kept that long.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:01 pm

He's still right up there as a top quality hooker. I'm sure Gatland will come out and say the same things as some of you here as that worked a treat last time.

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Post by cb Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:08 pm

One question which may already have been raised, is what happens if George starts to dramatically outplay Hartley at hooker (in internationals).

No big issue with Hartley starting against Scotland.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm

He'd get the chance, or more chance, to start.

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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'd get the chance, or more chance, to start.

So do YOU think Hartley is a thug based on his actions on pitch ?
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Post by beshocked Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:13 pm

no 7 & 1/2 someone with a record of serial offending is inevitably not going to be treated the same as one who doesn't.

I will admit Farrell has got away with a lot, I would call him a dirty player and unpleasant individual but compared to Hartley he's a saint. drumroll I think eventually he'll get what's coming to him though.

To be honest if Ford was playing better than Farrell I would have him in the 10 shirt instead.

Farrell is there because he's in form. Hartley doesn't even have form on his side.

Scottrf you can't write off the elbow as just a mistake. It was a deserved red.

I should add I've had no sympathy for Ashton. He was a fool and deserved his ban.

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Post by Knowsit17 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:14 pm

Last time Gatland emphasised Hartley's temperament a little too much as a potential match-deciding factor. That was a while ago now and I can't see him being stupid enough to make that mistake twice.

Not saying England would win no games with Hartley as skipper. But I would be lying if I said I could see him leading England to GS or WC glory.

And yes, a lot of apologism does go on for Hartley. If Ken Owens or Rory Best were of similar character, England fans would probably despise them.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:19 pm

beshocked I just don't agree that when your judging a foul we should take into account who's taking part in the action being judged. We start to then have massive inconsistencies in the game that is already deemed to have too many!

munkian, no I don't. I was answering the question on whether George outplays Hartley and what would happen (presumably if Hartley gets the captaincy ie would he be undroppable); I responded to say he would be given more chances.

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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:20 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:Last time Gatland emphasised Hartley's temperament a little too much as a potential match-deciding factor. That was a while ago now and I can't see him being stupid enough to make that mistake twice.

Not saying England would win no games with Hartley as skipper. But I would be lying if I said I could see him leading England to GS or WC glory.

And yes, a lot of apologism does go on for Hartley. If Ken Owens or Rory Best were of similar character, England fans would probably despise them.

Agreed, personally think Healy is a dirty SOB too.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:21 pm

To be fair knowsit I don't see a lot of venom directed at the likes of Cian Healy despite having similar issues.

And as I write that someone has pointed to him as well!

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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair knowsit I don't see a lot of venom directed at the likes of Cian Healy despite having similar issues.

And as I write that someone has pointed to him as well!

Neatly sidestepped my question too Wink

EDIT

Ah you did answer it.

You dont think someone who has been caught biting, punching,gouging and elbowing is a thug ?


Last edited by munkian on Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:24 pm

Which question sorry munkian. I don't intentionally sidestep questions.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:26 pm

No I don't. I think the issues that Hartley has had, where I deem bans etc fair enough and fully deserved a fair while ago and he's improved a lot. Like clarke who did one terrible thing on a rugby pitch and has been a saint since, I think people can make mistakes and not be judged on select things.

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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which question sorry munkian. I don't intentionally sidestep questions.

I edited my post
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Post by munkian Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No I don't. I think the issues that Hartley has had, where I deem bans etc fair enough and fully deserved a fair while ago and he's improved a lot. Like clarke who did one terrible thing on a rugby pitch and has been a saint since, I think people can make mistakes and not be judged on select things.

I think Clarke is an awful person too.

Didnt Hartley even have a sports psychiatrist then get banned for biting shortly after ? I'd say he's had plenty of chances and messed them all up, I wouldnt want him Captaining my country.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:33 pm

I think it was the elbow after the psych. Like I said before though watch an incident like that and it looks to me like he shrugs him off, don't think anyone else gets done there. Early incidents in his career have meant that he doesn't get off with those. I understand that thought that he knows and should keep himself whiter than white but to me we shouldn't have some players getting away with the same incidents based on their history or vice versa. Base your judgment on the incident then if found guilty throw the book at the ones who have had previous.

I wouldn't mind Hartley, would prefer Launchbury.

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Post by TightHEAD Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:37 pm

Surprised no one has mentioned his not English yet.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:45 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The vast majority of those bans were quite harsh.  His rep was used against him when deciding whether he was guilty which is wrong, should be used against him if found guilty.

At the citings were we ? Thats pure speculation on your part there.

It is another view. There is plenty of speculation as to him being a thug on this site also

There's no speculation- people DO think he is a thug based on evidence of this thuggish behavior.

Not sure where you are going with this one ?

Exactly right.

It is unfortunate that he is in a predicament where, in some people's opinion, he is unlikely to get a fair hearing on or off the pitch but he has created his reputation and he is very aware of it. That is not a situation you ideally want your captain to be in at a major championships.

As stated above by a few posters, George deserves the shirt, Haywood has played well enough to get a look in too.

I can understand that the new coach wants his team to have a tough edge but there is a difference between an edge and thuggish stupidity.

I am continually surprised how many people ignore and excuse the fact he is an exponent of something most true fans hate about the game.

I think the problem is Maesteg , that people keep saying thuggish behaviour when much of it actually isn't.

Im not defending the eye gouging etc...theres no place for that in this game.

But other things like the "head butt" and a couple of other things he was banned for etc were stupidity rather than "thuggish"

AS for the biting...im sure if I remember correctly that he was being fish hooked. Well im sorry but why is the oppositions finger trying to wrench his cheek off. if that was me...I dare say id have a bit of a chew aswell! .

Its a fine line and comes down to opinion. Those who don't like Hartley will make it extreme....those who are neutral or like him in general accept he's actually had a couple of raw deals when it comes to weeks being banned.

I don't actually want him to start purely on form..hes not the best hooker in the country. But if he was I don't feel he actually has the disciplinary (or thiggish) attitude many think he has.

That's just my tuppence worth. Very Happy

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Post by Knowsit17 Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No I don't. I think the issues that Hartley has had, where I deem bans etc fair enough and fully deserved a fair while ago and he's improved a lot. Like clarke who did one terrible thing on a rugby pitch and has been a saint since, I think people can make mistakes and not be judged on select things.

Only Hartley isn't singled out for isolated incidents in the manner you suggest; his career overall has been a catalogue of terrible and stupid deeds. He has committed almost every serious offence in the book. As people have said, these include gouging, biting, punching, elbowing, headbutting and football-esque verbal abuse of match officials. Offhand, the only serious offence I can imagine which Hartley hasn't committed is taking players out in the air... touch wood

Many of these were also committed when he was serving a leadership role. He has missed over a year of rugby due to various bans, sometimes getting banned at important times for the teams he plays for (Saints in the AP play-offs; missing the Lions; missing England's WC etc).

Forgive me if I suggest such a figure doesn't exactly scream of the solid leadership England need under Jones. Hence why I'm happy at the impending appointment.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:03 pm

And some people will look at that vicious headbutt knowsit and agree that it was a terrible deed. I can't really agree with a view like that though.

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Post by Scottrf Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:05 pm

Jacques Burger does a dozen worse headbutts per game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:07 pm

That's just through poor tackling technique to be fair to him!

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Post by Knowsit17 Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And some people will look at that vicious headbutt knowsit and agree that it was a terrible deed. I can't really agree with a view like that though.

Fair enough. I can't agree with the view that it's ok to systematically ignore a player's numerous past offences but that's just my opinion.

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Post by Scottrf Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:15 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And some people will look at that vicious headbutt knowsit and agree that it was a terrible deed. I can't really agree with a view like that though.

Fair enough. I can't agree with the view that it's ok to systematically ignore a player's numerous past offences but that's just my opinion.
Surely an incident breaks the laws or doesn't. Not breaks the rules if you're one player not another?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:17 pm

I'm not I'm judging on the merits of each one. Reading your list it looks awful, but judging each on it's own merits and I'm not too sure there's much there I could get worked up about barring the gouge.

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