An idea for Welsh rugby

First topic message reminder :

After looking at our regions, and seeing how far behind we are with the rest of Europe, I have started to think, and before anybody calls me stupid, or anything else as I have on here lately, just here me out, it is only an idea, it would never come into fruition. But this is what I would like to happen.

The Pro12 is not working for us Welsh, the crowds are low due to lack of interest, the officiating is not up to standard, there are to many instances of potential bias and the what not, I would like to see the Welsh walk away from it, and do their own thing. I have been thinking of how we could go about this. I would propose the following, a ring fenced top flight Premiership of 8 teams, two from each region. So for instance we could go with the following:

Neath
Swansea
Cardiff 
Pontypridd
Newport 
Ebbw Vale
Llanelli
Llandovery

It does not have to be these particular 8 teams, feel free to suggest different one's. These teams could play each other home and away for 16 weeks, with more away fans traveling between the games hopefully we could see a rise in attendances and a competition that more people in Wales would be interested in. We could market it to the hilt like the Australians have done with their big bash cricket, we could have it all singing and dancing, we could put tassels and bunting all over it and nice graphics on the tele and the what not.

Now when this has come to a climax, we would still have a gap to fill, so this is where we go onto the next level, when our league has finished, we could then move onto a regional competition to bring the season to a crescendo. We could then pick the best players from the two teams who have been playing within the league to then go on to represent their region. Imagine the debate, who should be picked for the regions ? It would be like one of the Lions threads on here  .

The regions could then duke it out with all the fans coming together to support it like they do with the derbies now, we could have a home and away basis, and a group of four, we could then have our judgement day,in the Principality Stadium,where the top two out of the group play for the cup and the bottom two play for the plate. If you finish bottom of the group and lose the plate then you would get the dreaded wooden spoon. The top two in the group then go on to play in Europe's top tier the following season and the bottom two go into the second tier the following season.

Now I know people are going to point out money issues with this and how can we afford to run eight teams, but the control of the regions would go over to the WRU, any players who are picked for the regions would get central contracts, but they would be able to represent the clubs they were produced by. Hopefully the bigger crowds and more interest in Wales would generate more money, and the academies could be run by the WRU.

Now I know there will be a few members on here who are going to rip this idea to shreds, but at least it is an idea, please feel free to add, our change anything, I would just like us all to come up with something that would suit us all.

Please can we refrain from turning this into anything personal, lets not get dragged into an argument and tell people how stupid they are, this is only an idea, lets run with fantasy for a bit and come up with names for the competition or any other permutations or any other ways of doing something different. This could be a bit of fun.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

It's just a term with a right old clusterf6ck of connotations, most of which are unhelpful to the core business of running a pro rugby team in Wales.  Especially the representative part, which to the average simpleton Welsh fan translates into entitlement.

The way they did it is a clusterf*ck, yeah. Totally agree. But regional/provincial/franchise rugby can be run successfully - NZ, Aus, SA, Ireland are examples that it can work without bankrupting everyone within it. It's just how you go about it. But yes, the pretend provincial model they decided on (I'm guessing it was a compromise of some sort), part 'province' and part private business, was always going to be doomed as they're polar opposite approaches, in a sports administration and governance sense.

But Dave knows this. Yet on numerous occasions he asks people to define 'regional' in the hope that he'll trip someone up.

It can work but that doesn't mean it ever will in the context of Wales. Those countries lose players to England despite having or having had policies to apply restrict international selection opportunities to those play in abroad. We have a toothless policy in that respect, and we are geographically and economically bolted on to the wealthiest rugby nation on earth. Going regional can't address he's structural problems we should be swimming with the tide not against it.

Stone Motif wrote:It can work but that doesn't mean it ever will in the context of Wales. Those countries lose players to England despite having or having had policies to apply restrict international selection opportunities to those play in abroad. We have a toothless policy in that respect, and we are geographically and economically bolted on to the wealthiest rugby nation on earth. Going regional can't address he's structural problems we should be swimming with the tide not against it.

I agree with a lot of that. However, do the nations mentioned lose their best players though? It's often the ones who have fallen down the pecking order somewhat, got a bit old, etc. Not many of the top international from those nations leave in their prime, when they're first choice internationals. I can think of Sexton recently, but now he's back. The Likes of Hayman, Marshall, Carter, Nonu, Matfield, Sivivatu, Bakkies Botha, etc., etc - all came, saw and conquered in international rugby and have only left for a swansong and a pay deal towards the end of their careers. In Wales though they tend to go in their prime, which is a big worry.

Griff wrote:

But Dave knows this.  Yet on numerous occasions he asks people to define 'regional' in the hope that he'll trip someone up.

Not trying to trip up anybody Griff.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

But Dave knows this.  Yet on numerous occasions he asks people to define 'regional' in the hope that he'll trip someone up.

Not trying to trip up anybody Griff.

Mischief maker!

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

But Dave knows this.  Yet on numerous occasions he asks people to define 'regional' in the hope that he'll trip someone up.

Not trying to trip up anybody Griff.

Mischief maker!

I am sometimes.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

Still the same old Cardiff though. Can't argue about that shewerly?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

Still the same old Cardiff though. Can't argue about that shewerly?

It's meant to be bigger than Cardiff. That's what causes all of the animosity. Another WRU f*ck up with different rules for different clubs, demonstrating perfectly their weak backbone.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

Still the same old Cardiff though. Can't argue about that shewerly?

It's meant to be bigger than Cardiff. That's what causes all of the animosity. Another WRU f*ck up with different rules for different clubs, demonstrating perfectly their weak backbone.

Don't be daft mun. Ewe can't get bigger than Cardiff.
What d'you mean by animosity and different rules btw?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

True Raven wrote:They do watch live rugby as Pontypridd still exist, just play at a lower level.  Hence why they don't support the Blues

I can pop down my local park and watch some fat blokes and pumped up lads on drugs play a game too, but if you want to watch top athletes at the top of their game then I fail to see why fans don't back the Regions.

In your opinion, what's a region?

What's your big hang up with this 'regional' term Dave? It's just a term. Call it provincial, franchise, district, representative, whatever. It's not that hard to understand. Identify an area, group the clubs together in that area and create/use a pro side in that area to represent them at pro level. Everyone then feeds upwards in terms of pathways to the pro club (in theory). Great if the areas exist already in administrative/political terms (e.g. Ireland) but if not them make them up (NZ, Wales). The areas don't have to be completely rigid in terms of who they cover, as we've seen with changes in NZ and Wales.

Still the same old Cardiff though. Can't argue about that shewerly?

It's meant to be bigger than Cardiff. That's what causes all of the animosity. Another WRU f*ck up with different rules for different clubs, demonstrating perfectly their weak backbone.

Don't be daft mun. Ewe can't get bigger than Cardiff.
What d'you mean by animosity and different rules btw?

Cardiff is not that big in the grand scheme of Wales. You could cover 'Glamorgan', for example, rather than just the city of Cardiff.

Animosity - amongst fans that some clubs are stand alone. Animosity amongst fans that some clubs were merged, etc.

Diffent rules as in two clubs being allowed to pay (apparently) to stand alone while six others were made to downgrade their pro status and form 3 new businesses with partners who were tradition rivals. That was the WRU caving in to Llanelli and Cardiff pressure = weak backbone or perhaps palms being suitable crossed with silver.

Griff wrote:Diffent rules as in two clubs being allowed to pay (apparently) to stand alone

Only one club paid to stand alone, the owner paid 1m out of his own pocket for the privilege, the other club threw their toys out of the pram and threatened to take a bankrupt WRU to court over it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:Diffent rules as in two clubs being allowed to pay (apparently) to stand alone

Only one club paid to stand alone, the owner paid 1m out of his own pocket for the privilege, the other club threw their toys out of the pram and threatened to take a bankrupt WRU to court over it.

D'you mean Ponty?
Sure they did some sabre rattling at the time. Borrowed sabres probably. From Cardiff, free of charge.

News to me...

"Pontypridd Supporters Threaten Legal Action".....

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/9749.php#.VrJSkVnqnR4

Griff wrote:

Cardiff is not that big in the grand scheme of Wales. You could cover 'Glamorgan', for example, rather than just the city of Cardiff.

Animosity - amongst fans that some clubs are stand alone. Animosity amongst fans that some clubs were merged, etc.

Diffent rules as in two clubs being allowed to pay (apparently) to stand alone while six others were made to downgrade their pro status and form 3 new businesses with partners who were tradition rivals. That was the WRU caving in to Llanelli and Cardiff pressure = weak backbone or perhaps palms being suitable crossed with silver.

What does "cover 'Glamorgan'" mean exactly in the real world?
Cardiff rugby is a mere dot on google maps. Anyone can join in if they choose to as they always have done. Tune in or turn off is the choice.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff is not that big in the grand scheme of Wales. You could cover 'Glamorgan', for example, rather than just the city of Cardiff.

Animosity - amongst fans that some clubs are stand alone. Animosity amongst fans that some clubs were merged, etc.

Diffent rules as in two clubs being allowed to pay (apparently) to stand alone while six others were made to downgrade their pro status and form 3 new businesses with partners who were tradition rivals. That was the WRU caving in to Llanelli and Cardiff pressure = weak backbone or perhaps palms being suitable crossed with silver.

Honesty and transparency is the way forward.

Cardiff Dave wrote:News to me...

"Pontypridd Supporters Threaten Legal Action".....

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/9749.php#.VrJSkVnqnR4

They did not follow through with it though did they ? 

Pontypridd merged with Bridgend to form Celtic Warriors. Another club threw all their toys out and wanted to take the WRU to court and ended up stand alone.

LordDowlais wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:News to me...

"Pontypridd Supporters Threaten Legal Action".....

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/9749.php#.VrJSkVnqnR4

They did not follow through with it though did they ? 

Pontypridd merged with Bridgend to form Celtic Warriors. Another club threw all their toys out and wanted to take the WRU to court and ended up stand alone.

Think I just did.
Nurse?!?!

Griff wrote:

Cardiff is not that big in the grand scheme of Wales. You could cover 'Glamorgan', for example, rather than just the city of Cardiff.

Animosity - amongst fans that some clubs are stand alone. Animosity amongst fans that some clubs were merged, etc.

Diffent rules as in two clubs being allowed to pay (apparently) to stand alone while six others were made to downgrade their pro status and form 3 new businesses with partners who were tradition rivals. That was the WRU caving in to Llanelli and Cardiff pressure = weak backbone or perhaps palms being suitable crossed with silver.

Mate, all clubs played by the same rules. All could have stood alone if they had wanted to as the Loyalty Agreement could have rolled on. Those clubs that merged, however, knew they wouldn't have been able to stay afloat on the minimum payment afforded by the LA (all bar Swansea, that is).

Llanelli served papers on the WRU. Cardiff didn't need to.

As Moffett noted, he couldn't afford to fight the legal case with Llanelli as the WRU would have lost anyway. At the time, the WRU was technically insolvent.

It was nothing to do with the WRU being weak or any 'palms' and 'silver'. It was a simple legal matter.

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:It can work but that doesn't mean it ever will in the context of Wales. Those countries lose players to England despite having or having had policies to apply restrict international selection opportunities to those play in abroad. We have a toothless policy in that respect, and we are geographically and economically bolted on to the wealthiest rugby nation on earth. Going regional can't address he's structural problems we should be swimming with the tide not against it.

I agree with a lot of that.  However, do the nations mentioned lose their best players though?  It's often the ones who have fallen down the pecking order somewhat, got a bit old, etc.  Not many of the top international from those nations leave in their prime, when they're first choice internationals.  I can think of Sexton recently, but now he's back.  The Likes of Hayman, Marshall, Carter, Nonu, Matfield, Sivivatu, Bakkies Botha, etc., etc - all came, saw and conquered in international rugby and have only left for a swansong and a pay deal towards the end of their careers.  In Wales though they tend to go in their prime, which is a big worry.

But the Welsh only lost their better players because of the terms of the 2009 PA. Lewis tried to starve PRW out of existence. That's why players left.

Griff wrote:
It's meant to be bigger than Cardiff. That's what causes all of the animosity. Another WRU f*ck up with different rules for different clubs, demonstrating perfectly their weak backbone.

Wrong again.

It's just Cardiff, running an Academy Regional Development Pathway.

The only 'regional' bit is the Pathway. The pro team at the top is just that - a pro team.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:It can work but that doesn't mean it ever will in the context of Wales. Those countries lose players to England despite having or having had policies to apply restrict international selection opportunities to those play in abroad. We have a toothless policy in that respect, and we are geographically and economically bolted on to the wealthiest rugby nation on earth. Going regional can't address he's structural problems we should be swimming with the tide not against it.

I agree with a lot of that.  However, do the nations mentioned lose their best players though?  It's often the ones who have fallen down the pecking order somewhat, got a bit old, etc.  Not many of the top international from those nations leave in their prime, when they're first choice internationals.  I can think of Sexton recently, but now he's back.  The Likes of Hayman, Marshall, Carter, Nonu, Matfield, Sivivatu, Bakkies Botha, etc., etc - all came, saw and conquered in international rugby and have only left for a swansong and a pay deal towards the end of their careers.  In Wales though they tend to go in their prime, which is a big worry.

But the Welsh only lost their better players because of the terms of the 2009 PA. Lewis tried to starve PRW out of existence. That's why players left.

Would make an interesting article to read in the Fail, for once. Or indeed an hour long discussion on ChumV. Fat chance.