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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 30 Jan 2016, 9:36 am

First topic message reminder :



The Rugby World Cup should return to South Africa in 2023, and the tournament should be expanded to 24 teams.

The other three candidates are Ireland, France and Italy. Were any of these successful, that would mean a third straight World Cup in the Northern Hemisphere, even though it is the Southern Hemisphere which overwhelmingly dominates.

It would also entail a return to the Six Nations for the fifth time in just ten tournaments, which is a little ridiculous for a sport with over one hundred affiliated member nations and self-professed global pretentions.

Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border.

France, meanwhile, hosted the World Cup as recently as eight years ago, and was also a co-host in 1991 and 1999.

That leaves Italy, to my mind the most attractive of the European bids, as it is a newcomer to the heavyweight ranks with a large number of registered players. However, World Rugby might want to go with a more established rugby playing nation for its 10th World Cup. Japan is already facing problems as it prepares to stage the 2019 event, with its new Olympic Stadium having now been removed from the venue list.

As for South Africa, it has the biggest and best rugby-purpose stadia in the world - with the possible exception of England, which has just hosted the event for the second time. It has the second largest number of registered players (also behind England), and it is the second most successful rugby playing nation after New Zealand.

By the time 2023 rolls around, an entire generation will have grown up since the last time the tournament was held in South Africa. This, even though the 1995 installment was one of the most successful and spectacular World Cups to date.

So if New Zealand, Austrlalia and England can all host it twice, and France can be involved as either host or co-host on three occasions, why on earth shouldn't it return to South Africa in 2023? Why does World Rugby appear to have lost faith in the republic, having overlooked it for both 2011 and 2019?

It's time to break the cycle. The World Cup can not continue to return to Western Europe on every second occasion. That is a myopic approach and anathema to the globalization cause.

But it does need to return to the Southern Hemisphere in 2023 for what will be the first time in 12 years. Moreover, it needs to return to the African continent, one of the hotbeds of international rugby development in recent decades.

This leads me to my final point in South Africa's favour. World Rugby officials have raised the possibility of an expanded tournament, and this is undoubtedly overdue. Again, with its vast array of rugby-purpose stadia, South Africa's credentials are unsurpassed as a potential host nation for a 24-team World Cup.

The last - and only - increase in teams was from 16 to 20 in 1999. This appears to have been successful, judging by the improved performances of the fringe teams in New Zealand and England.

In fact, no centuries have been recorded since 2003, while Japan's stunning victory over the Springboks this year suggests the days of foregone conclusions is World Cup rugby may be drawing to a close.

That said, a lot of work needs to be done in the interim if the additional teams are going to be genuinely competitive. One of the biggest obstacles to the game's global development is the stratification of its international competitions.

Not only are the elite championships closed-shop, but there is little interaction between the top teams and the emerging nations in between World Cups. How on earth are the up-and-comers supposed to be competitive in the big exam if they have been denied the lessons to prepare in between?

New Zealand and Australia should be playing annual tests with the Pacific Islands and Japan, as should the Six Nations with their Eastern European neighbours. South Africa ought to engage Namibia in a 'Bledisloe Cup'-style annual trophy match, and Hong Kong and Korea should be playing in the Pacific Challenge tournament, alongside the Pacific Islands B teams and Argentina's 'Pampas,' with a possible view to future inclusion in the Pacific Nations Championship.

In addition to this, would it not be a fairly straightforward exercise for Six Nations teams to stop in for tests against Namibia and Uruguay enroute to South Africa and Argentina, respectively - as well as the Pacific Islands while touring New Zealand or Australia?

By the same token, how about the Southern Hemisphere teams playing Georgia, Romania or Russia on their Autumn tours to Europe? Argentina might even take on Spain or Portugal.

If rugby is to more forward, it needs to expand its World Cup, and this can only be successful with a more integrated international rugby calendar.
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 07 Feb 2016, 8:19 pm

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And clearly sunny elsewhere
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Post by Rowanbi Mon 08 Feb 2016, 10:23 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Scary !  Shocked

Security sources in Dublin said yesterday that the gang had intended to kill others in addition to Byrne in their rampage through a hotel packed not only with boxing fans but with supporters of the Welsh rugby team, in town for Sunday’s Six Nations clash with Ireland at the Aviva Stadium. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/07/dublin-drugs-shooting-spain-gang-warfare


Latest report in the Irish Times suggests the Continuity IRA have claimed responsibility and may be stepping up their attacks in the future. CIRA is a paramilitary group that broke away from the Provisional IRA 3 decades ago and is regarded as a terrorist organization in Britian & the US.

He said there would be more attacks. “The Continuity IRA will carry out further military operations,” he said. “This will not be an isolated incident. Continuity IRA units have been authorised to carry out further operations. More drug dealers and criminals will be targeted.” https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/continuity-ira-claims-responsibility-for-shooting-at-regency-hotel-1.2526783
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 8:32 am

That's horrible! And these sort of things happen much more in SA so it's got to be Italy or Ireland. Imagine you're just minding your own business in a friends bathroom then being gunned down.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 10:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's horrible! And these sort of things happen much more in SA so it's got to be Italy or Ireland. Imagine you're just minding your own business in a friends bathroom then being gunned down.

Not sure how that story's a recommendation for Ireland. But if World Rugby were to base its decision solely upon murder rates, Italy would be the frontrunner, yes. It has the lowest murder rate of the four candidates, somewhat surprisingly, given it's the home of the Mafia.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 10:44 am

Clearly Italy and Ireland are the choices, you've sold me, no need for anything else.

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 10:51 am

Rowanbi wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Scary !  Shocked

Security sources in Dublin said yesterday that the gang had intended to kill others in addition to Byrne in their rampage through a hotel packed not only with boxing fans but with supporters of the Welsh rugby team, in town for Sunday’s Six Nations clash with Ireland at the Aviva Stadium. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/07/dublin-drugs-shooting-spain-gang-warfare


Latest report in the Irish Times suggests the Continuity IRA have claimed responsibility and may be stepping up their attacks in the future. CIRA is a paramilitary group that broke away from the Provisional IRA 3 decades ago and is regarded as a terrorist organization in Britian & the US.

He said there would be more attacks. “The Continuity IRA will carry out further military operations,” he said. “This will not be an isolated incident. Continuity IRA units have been authorised to carry out further operations. More drug dealers and criminals will be targeted.” https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/continuity-ira-claims-responsibility-for-shooting-at-regency-hotel-1.2526783

It more than likely has nothing to do with the CIRA or at the very least there isn't any political motivation anyway. Its a drugs gang war. Let them kill each other. Even if it was the CIRA that were involved they are a very small group with few supporters that are involved in drugs because they have no other means of getting financial support. They are targeting rival gangs and with a bit of luck they will wipe each other out over the next few weeks.

The guards (police) in Ireland don't even carry guns because there so little crime. SA is awash with guns both legal and illegal. Ireland is an infinitely safer country.

By contrast SA regularly features high on international lists globally for r*** and homicide.



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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 10:57 am

They are targeting rival gangs and with a bit of luck they will wipe each other out over the next few weeks.


Sure, but some Welsh rugby fans came very close to being caught in the cross-fire there. That was my particular concern.
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Post by Sin é Tue 09 Feb 2016, 10:57 am

Rowanbi wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:That's horrible! And these sort of things happen much more in SA so it's got to be Italy or Ireland. Imagine you're just minding your own business in a friends bathroom then being gunned down.

Not sure how that story's a recommendation for Ireland. But if World Rugby were to base its decision solely upon murder rates, Italy would be the frontrunner, yes. It has the lowest murder rate of the four candidates, somewhat surprisingly, given it's the home of the Mafia.

Not that murder is the main issue - its thief, muggins etc. that would be of chief concern to visitors as tourists would be targets.

For the record - these are the murder rates for these various countries.

South Africa - 31 per 100,000
Ireland - 1.2 per 100,000
Italy - 0.9 per 100,000

Just on the Continuity IRA attacks. Its a drugs war, not some random terrorist attack on innocent people.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 11:01 am

And if it's a concern in Ireland it should mean SA are discounted now. We all agree.

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Post by Sin é Tue 09 Feb 2016, 11:03 am

Rowanbi wrote: They are targeting rival gangs and with a bit of luck they will wipe each other out over the next few weeks.


Sure, but some Welsh rugby fans came very close to being caught in the cross-fire there. That was my particular concern.

Were they? From this report:

He (hotel manager) credited Welsh rugby fans who arrived on Friday afternoon after the incident and thanked them for their understanding and support.


He also thanked the "very supportive and helpful" gardai who set up an area to allow the hotel to continue arrivals and check-ins for the weekend.

"When the Welsh supporters arrived, they were very sympathetic," he said.
"They left their baggage and went into town to leave us alone.
"From a tourist point of view they do believe Ireland is a safe place to be, but I'm sure they were asking questions themselves.
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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 11:10 am

I have never heard of a rugby fan injured or even in a fight in Ireland during or after a game.

Same cant be said of SA:
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/rugby-fan-stabbed-at-kings-match
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2300432/Brett-Williams-Former-British-Marine-29-beaten-death-rugby-fans-South-Africa.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/tmo-for-ireland-versus-england-shaun-veldsman-stabbed-in-south-africa-1.2113965
http://www.rugbydump.com/2008/05/485/midweek-madness-bok-fan-piet-van-zyl-attacks-ref-in-2002

Evan TMOs get stabbed and refs get attacked in SA. Its no wonder Craig Joubert ran off the pitch like a coward after the Scotland v Australia game. If he was in SA he would have been attacked.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 09 Feb 2016, 12:18 pm

My concern in this area is the proliferation of of firearms on the streets of major South African cities, for people to say that armed robberies of tourists doesnt occur while Rugby World cups are on is just Ga Ga thinking. it happens all the time.

Tourist buses are regularly robbed at gunpoint, and if it wasnt for people handing over thier valuables then the murder rate would be much higher.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 12:29 pm

Its a drugs war, not some random terrorist attack on innocent people.

I think terrorism is a much greater issue in France than South Africa, isn't it?

And if it's a concern in Ireland it should mean SA are discounted now. We all agree.

It's a much bigger concern in SA, of course, but by no means a reason to discount them. Not unless you want to pull the 7s teams out of Rio as well . . . (which would be pretty embarrassing, given the synchronized swimmers will be there )

Were they? From this report:


The initial report I posted in this thread gave that impression. I only know what I read.








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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 09 Feb 2016, 12:34 pm

Wasnt it just last year that Shaun Payne the former wing/fullback for Munster was robbed, taken hostage etc at gunpoint?

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 12:42 pm

In addition to the unfortunate victim named below, several youth rugby players were also killed in this incident, including one from Spain.

Amateur rugby player dider was originally from Sancerre, but lived in Paris. In a post on Facebook, his team wrote: "There are not words strong enough to describe how we're gonna miss you."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attack-victims-list-french-government-identifies-all-129-people-killed-in-paris-terrorist-a6739116.html
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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 09 Feb 2016, 12:48 pm


Its a bit stupid for people to compare one off incidents of terrorism as have occured in France or New York 2011, to the everday, everwhere South African robberies and violence.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 12:48 pm

So safety records don't matter in your mind then Row? Can't really agree.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 1:00 pm

Sorry, Aucklandlaurie, but you wanted to tell us about a one-off incident so I thought I would reply in kind.

So safety records don't matter in your mind then Row? Can't really agree.

On the contrary, I think they are important. But the safety record at major sporting events in South Africa is nigh impeccable.
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Post by Cyril Tue 09 Feb 2016, 1:02 pm

If I had a choice of going to Italy or SA it would be Italy every, single time.

An Italian World Cup would be fantastic Smile

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 1:03 pm

So ignore the crime stats, they don't matter? Can't really agree. You do seem to jump around with this, it's clear from the areas you post on that Italy, Ireland and then SA are favourites in that order. You've said the same since 2008 apparently when you were 12.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 1:04 pm

Italy does tick all the boxes doesn't it. And I love Ireland. Win win.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 1:13 pm

Sorry, 7& 1/2, that last post was a little incoherent. But basically I agree that the crime rate in South Africa is pretty horrific. However, the murder rate - at least - is not that much different to Brazil's, and it is declining steadily, so that by 2023 it ought to be below that country's, given the current trajectory. & Brazil, of course, is staging this year's Olympics, 2 years after it staged the FIFA World Cup. That aside, both Brazil and South Africa have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to stage major international sports events - including the world's biggest - without being effect in the least by crime. It is actually possible that the very fact they have so much experience dealing with the issue is why they do such a professional job on security. Bottom line is, that's all that matters in this context.

Italy does tick all the boxes doesn't it.

Not really. The major issues are staging two consecutive tournaments in an expansion market, especially when we don't know how successful the first will be. Prudence suggests returning it to a rugby heartland in 2023 and lining Italy up for 2027. Secondly, we need to be sure the tournament won't be overshadowed by the Serie A, which is more than conceivable. Probably it needs to be held at a separate time altogether, if possible.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 1:19 pm

Italy clear favourite then. Not sure SA should be getting it again to be honest until all new bidders have hosted.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 09 Feb 2016, 2:33 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Sorry, Aucklandlaurie, but you wanted to tell us about a one-off incident so I thought I would reply in kind.

So safety records don't matter in your mind then Row? Can't really agree.

On the contrary, I think they are important. But the safety record at major sporting events in South Africa is nigh impeccable.


Rowan, I wouldnt refer to the carjacking and robbery of Shaun Payne as a one-off incident in South Africa, its an everyday allday everwhere occurence, and you know that.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 2:47 pm

owan, I wouldnt refer to the carjacking and robbery of Shaun Payne as a one-off incident in South Africa, its an everyday allday everwhere occurence, and you know that.

Shaun Payne getting carjacked and robbed is an every day, all day, everywhere occurence? Unlucky guy!

I was referring to the fact that a number of rugby players were killed in last year's terrorist attacks in France. These included Spain's Juan Garrido, who played for Kudu in the French FFSE youth leagues, along with Frenchman Romain Didier of the Crododile Network.

But terrorist attacks themselves are not one-off incidents.
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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 2:52 pm

France has not put in a bid for the RWC though. Terrorist attacks in France are prevalent due to their legacy of occupation in the middle east and other locations.

Ireland is a neutral peaceful country with no such colonial past and very little threat of any attacks by contrast.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:05 pm


Next thing Rowan will be telling us that a World cup should be held in Syria.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:38 pm

People said the same thing about SA during the football world cup... but few things happened then. Its old hat.

Is it a problem, of course. But in general its a domestic problem and doesn't really impact tourism. Cape Town is one of the premier tourist spots in the world.

I've been to Rio before and would say hands down its a more dangerous city than Jozi, CT. Bet few would say no to the past FIFA14 or Olympics16 due to security threats.

SA or Southern Africa hasn't seen a world cup by 2023 for 28 years. I think given its one of the 3-4 major hotbeds i.e. Europe, Argentina, South Africa and ANZAC. Argentina is probably not ready infrastructure wise... SA deserves it for me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:41 pm

Italy and Ireland have never hosted if we go by who's turn it is though.

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:46 pm

fa0019 wrote:People said the same thing about SA during the football world cup... but few things happened then. Its old hat.

Is it a problem, of course. But in general its a domestic problem and doesn't really impact tourism. Cape Town is one of the premier tourist spots in the world.

I've been to Rio before and would say hands down its a more dangerous city than Jozi, CT. Bet few would say no to the past FIFA14 or Olympics16 due to security threats.

SA or Southern Africa hasn't seen a world cup by 2023 for 28 years. I think given its one of the 3-4 major hotbeds i.e. Europe, Argentina, South Africa and ANZAC. Argentina is probably not ready infrastructure wise... SA deserves it for me.

By 2023 Ireland wont have hosted it in 40 years of participation. They "deserve" it far more than SA who have already hosted it.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Italy and Ireland have never hosted if we go by who's turn it is though.

Thats true

But region wise no. The FRA vs. IRE match in Cardiff looked like it was 70000 Irish fans... more than you could fit in the Aviva.

87 - ANZAC
91 - Europe
95 - SA
99 - Europe
03 - ANZAC
07 - Europe
11 - ANZAC
15 - Europe
19 - Japan

so out of 9 tournaments... Europe has hosted 4 (and Europe as in UK, IRE, FRA), ANZAC 3, SA 1 and now Japan in 2019. I would say if it went to Europe again it would be a little unfair to SA fans.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:50 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
fa0019 wrote:People said the same thing about SA during the football world cup... but few things happened then. Its old hat.

Is it a problem, of course. But in general its a domestic problem and doesn't really impact tourism. Cape Town is one of the premier tourist spots in the world.

I've been to Rio before and would say hands down its a more dangerous city than Jozi, CT. Bet few would say no to the past FIFA14 or Olympics16 due to security threats.

SA or Southern Africa hasn't seen a world cup by 2023 for 28 years. I think given its one of the 3-4 major hotbeds i.e. Europe, Argentina, South Africa and ANZAC. Argentina is probably not ready infrastructure wise... SA deserves it for me.

By 2023 Ireland wont have hosted it in 40 years of participation. They "deserve" it far more than SA who have already hosted it.

Hosted it as much as anyone in 91.

For Irish fans, welsh fans, Scottish fans, English fans, French fans... it means little that the tournament is in their neighbours backyards... you still travel to the games just like you would for a domestic club clash.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:51 pm

We should discount them all and take it to N America and S America next then. I think it would be more unfair on irish and Italian fans for them to be overlooked as SA get it again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:51 pm

I see SA as the same as NZ though so they've just had it.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We should discount them all and take it to N America and S America next then. I think it would be more unfair on irish and Italian fans for them to be overlooked as SA get it again.

But N America is not a major market yet. Argentina it is lukewarm. That's unrealistic at this time.

SA is one of the major markets in world rugby. That's undeniable. 50MM people, near 1MM registered players.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I see SA as the same as NZ though so they've just had it.

"they all look alike to me" right?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:58 pm

Apparently they do to some yes. SA and NZ are interchangable like England and Wales. They play each other all the time. Boring.

So only 'major' markets now. We'll swap between England France SA and NZ every time. Brill plan.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:00 pm

France has not put in a bid for the RWC though. Terrorist attacks in France are prevalent due to their legacy of occupation in the middle east and other locations.

Er, yes, they have.

Ireland is a neutral peaceful country with no such colonial past and very little threat of any attacks by contrast.

Apart from the gangland shoot-outs...

Next thing Rowan will be telling us that a World cup should be held in Syria.

I'm not the one dismissing the threat of terrorism here. I'm actually about the only one who has expressed any real concern about it.

Italy and Ireland have never hosted if we go by who's turn it is though.

But Ireland as co-hosted more than once. Not bad for a geographically tiny country which has never beaten the All Blacks, made the semis of a RWC or even won a single play-off match at the World Cup.

By 2023 Ireland wont have hosted it in 40 years of participation. They "deserve" it far more than SA who have already hosted it.



See my previous comments. & would you compare Ireland to Brazil like this in football? Brazil's hosted it twice, Ireland never, Brazil's full of crime, Ireland's crime-free, etc, etc? At least in rugby Ireland got to co-host twice, and probably will do so again. Ditto Scotland, who by your method of evaluation would have to host 2031 - by right.

so out of 9 tournaments... Europe has hosted 4 (and Europe as in UK, IRE, FRA), ANZAC 3, SA 1 and now Japan in 2019. I would say if it went to Europe again it would be a little unfair to SA fans.

To put it mildly. The world does not revolve around Western Europe, folks - not even the rugby world.

I see SA as the same as NZ though so they've just had it.

Same distance apart as Japan & Europe, so that's settled it: SA must host again before it goes back to the Japan/Europe region...
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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:03 pm

fa0019 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
fa0019 wrote:People said the same thing about SA during the football world cup... but few things happened then. Its old hat.

Is it a problem, of course. But in general its a domestic problem and doesn't really impact tourism. Cape Town is one of the premier tourist spots in the world.

I've been to Rio before and would say hands down its a more dangerous city than Jozi, CT. Bet few would say no to the past FIFA14 or Olympics16 due to security threats.

SA or Southern Africa hasn't seen a world cup by 2023 for 28 years. I think given its one of the 3-4 major hotbeds i.e. Europe, Argentina, South Africa and ANZAC. Argentina is probably not ready infrastructure wise... SA deserves it for me.

By 2023 Ireland wont have hosted it in 40 years of participation. They "deserve" it far more than SA who have already hosted it.

Hosted it as much as anyone in 91.

For Irish fans, welsh fans, Scottish fans, English fans, French fans... it means little that the tournament is in their neighbours backyards... you still travel to the games just like you would for a domestic club clash.

Nonsense.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:05 pm

Rowanbi wrote:

Ireland has stadia more than big enough to stage the tournament - not a problem.

Won't disagree there either. But South Africa has far more, bigger and better stadiums. Aviva notwithstanding, Ireland has no major rugby purpose stadia and will be reliant on Gaelic football and hurling venues. South Africa has literally dozens of major rugby stadiums, as well as dozens of easily convertible football stadiums - many updated (and a few actually built) for the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

If Ireland stadia are big enough that is good enough. The fact SA stadia are even bigger is irrelevant.

Rowanbi wrote:Ireland can guarantee a level of local interest without equal.

I don't think there are any grounds for suggesting this. The most passionate (tier 1) rugby nations in the world have traditionally been NZ, SA & Wales. NZ & Wales are also the two tier 1 nations with  the largest rugby-playing communities per capita, while South Africa has the largest rugby-playing community overall after England.  

You are clearly out of date with respect to NH rugby crowds in the professional era. Below international level support in Ireland is more than double that in Wales. Also just looked up Super 15 support - lower in NZ than Ireland. That's the thing about tradition its in the past. Also I guarantee Irish supporters will turn out in big numbers for the smaller teams - we are like that. The point stands

Rowanbi wrote:Talk of NH/SH swapping is totally bogus on too counts - there are less countries in the SH and to swap 50/50 is a unfair bias to the SH countries - basically guarantees 50% of all WC are in one of the 4 Rugby Championship teams.

Which is why they did actually alternate it, without fail, for the first 8 tournaments, I suppose? Of course, it couldn't go on forever, and Japan were awarded 2019 - which I don't begrudge - but if there is a move away from hemispheric alternation, surely it should be toward continental rotation, and not returning the event to the same small corner of Europe on every second occasion. Time to cut the umbilical cord, wouldn't you say?

The WC should be shared equally amongst the Tier 1 nations, if they are capable of holding the event; plus any other nation with the resources to succeed. SA has hosted it, Ireland hasn't - on that fact alone Ireland should be in front of SA. Along with Italy we remain the only Tier 1 nation with the resources to host the tournament who hasn't.

Rowanbi wrote: [How you work out SA is geographically preferable to Ireland is totally beyond me - SA is close to no other leading rugby nations, Irleand is close to plenty.

You've conveniently disqualified the entire global community apart from Western Europe with that comment. South Africa is not as isolated as NZ or Australia, both of whom have hosted twice. It is surrounded by nations with significant rugby playing communities, notably serial RWC qualifier Namibia, former RWC participant Zimbabwe, Madagascar - where rugby is the national sport, and Swaziland which has one of the largest rugby-playing communities per capita in the world. South Africa's geographical advantage over Ireland comes in terms of size, obviously, though it's not so huge that travelling fans wouldn't be able to bus it between venues when necessary.

Well have the likes of Wales, France, England on our doorstep is a happy fact of geography but that's the point.
You reel off a series of African nations from whom very few people would travel and only one, at most, will travel to the World Cup.

Rowanbi wrote:Climate is subjective - playing in 80 degrees + is not great unless you are used to it

Deluded is a good word to describe someone who thinks Ireland has an advantage over South Africa in terms of climate. Winter temperatures in South Africa overall range from around 8 degrees celsius to mid-twenties (mid-40s to mid-70s farenheit). That's about perfect for rugby, I think, and certainly not too hot. Winter temperatures in Ireland overall average from around 6 degrees celsius to a maximum of 14 (43-48 farenheit). Not too bad either, though there are substantially fewer sunshine hours and a far greater likelihood of rain.

You need to revisit the climate records and the timetable for the event.
SA can and does have temperatures  in excess of 80 degrees F in October.
The event is in September and October which is not winter in Ireland and thus invalidates the figures you use, which are not applicable

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:12 pm

Cape Town to Jozi or Durban are both >1200km away.

Dublin, Edinburgh, London, Cardiff & Paris are all within 800km of each other.

Who gives a hoot about "hosting". I don't think fans could care less as long as they can go and support their teams... and European fans have had ample opportunities to go see RWC matches over the years.

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:15 pm

Rowanbi wrote:

But Ireland as co-hosted more than once. Not bad for a geographically tiny country which has never beaten the All Blacks, made the semis of a RWC or even won a single play-off match at the World Cup.

Team performance isn't relevant. If it is then SA's loss to Japan should rule them out or Ireland's recent head to head record v SA. Take your pick. SA's recent win/loss record is also far worse than Ireland's.

Ireland co-hosted once prior to SA hosting. Co-hosting, in other words being thrown a few token games here and there isn't the same as hosting.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:18 pm

Why not go the route of the Americas Cup?.... Winner gets hosting rights.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:21 pm

If Ireland stadia are big enough that is good enough. The fact SA stadia are even bigger is irrelevant.

It's a vital detail that the selection committee will obviously take very much into consideration.

You are clearly out of date with respect to NH rugby crowds in the professional era. Below international level support in Ireland is more than double that in Wales. Also just looked up Super 15 support - lower in NZ than Ireland. That's the thing about tradition its in the past. Also I guarantee Irish supporters will turn out in big numbers for the smaller teams - we are like that. The point stands

I also looked this up. South Africa, Cape Town in particular, receives by far the biggest crowds as club games. & I don't think too many would agree with the assertion Ireland is more passionate about rugby than NZ and Wales, either.

The WC should be shared equally amongst the Tier 1 nations, if they are capable of holding the event; plus any other nation with the resources to succeed. SA has hosted it, Ireland hasn't - on that fact alone Ireland should be in front of SA. Along with Italy we remain the only Tier 1 nation with the resources to host the tournament who hasn't.

Why should it be shared equally among the tier 1 nations? Why should there even be tier 1 nations? If you go with this, what are Japan doing hosting the next RWC? It's not about tiers at all, and it's certainly not about rotating it around the same select few insular nations who've maintained a stranglehold on international administration for the past century and more - thereby slowing the game-s global development. It's about which nation has the best bid on the table from a number of perspective. By your method of evaluation, NZ & England should not have hosted twice either. But nobody's tearing that to shreds? You'd also have six our of every 10 RWCs in Western Europe, and Scotland would have to be up in 2027. This is probably one of the most backward arguments I've seen yet.

Well have the likes of Wales, France, England on our doorstep is a happy fact of geography but that's the point. You reel off a series of African nations from whom very few people would travel and only one, at most, will travel to the World Cup.

So every World Cup should be in the 6 Nations then? Is that what you're suggesting? South Africa has fifty million people and plenty of rugby-playing neighbors. If you're suggesting they're too isolated to host then why have NZ & Australia already had it twice? Why is Japan staging it in 2019? Nobody from China's going to go there, are they? & btw, the people of Africa are not all starving to death, you know. There are plenty of wealthy Africans and large rugby playing communities in the southern half of the continent.

SA can and does have temperatures  in excess of 80 degrees F in October.
The event is in September and October which is not winter in Ireland and thus invalidates the figures you use, which are not applicable


Just a rough comparison of winter temperatures. I think we've already established that at the regular time of hosting in the respective hemispheres we can expect on average 10 degrees in Dublin with a 60% chance of rain, 9 degrees in Belfast with a 74% chance of rain, and 17 degrees in South Africa with a 2% chance of rain.

If it is then SA's loss to Japan should rule them out or Ireland's recent head to head record v SA.

Where did SA & Japan finish in the tournament, respectively? How many World Cups have these two nations won? What is SA's all-time head-to-head record against Ireland? How many times has Ireland won IN SOUTH AFRICA ??
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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:25 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:

But Ireland as co-hosted more than once. Not bad for a geographically tiny country which has never beaten the All Blacks, made the semis of a RWC or even won a single play-off match at the World Cup.

Team performance isn't relevant. If it is then SA's loss to Japan should rule them out or Ireland's recent head to head record v SA. Take your pick. SA's recent win/loss record is also far worse than Ireland's.

Ireland co-hosted once prior to SA hosting. Co-hosting, in other words being thrown a few token games here and there isn't the same as hosting.

Confident of winning a game in the summer tour guns? Difficult to tell yet. Got to see who next SA coach is, big bet is Rassie Erasmus which is good news for the boks. I think its possible but still think 0-3 is the most likely outcome. 3 close games but SA will be fresh, Ireland probably less so and still are coming to terms with their new side.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:26 pm

I concede the floor to you Rowanbi you managed to dodge just about every point made by twisting your answer.

You s hould go into politics !

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:28 pm

fa0019 wrote:Cape Town to Jozi or Durban are both >1200km away.

Dublin, Edinburgh, London, Cardiff & Paris are all within 800km of each other.

Who gives a hoot about "hosting". I don't think fans could care less as long as they can go and support their teams... and European fans have had ample opportunities to go see RWC matches over the years.

Planes trains and automobiles. You could stop off in your home country on the way to Ireland.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:29 pm

fa0019 wrote: Who gives a hoot about "hosting". I don't think fans could care less as long as they can go and support their teams... .

Only someone who doesn't have a clue about the Irish, English or French could say that - to all of them hosting events like this is a big deal

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Post by GunsGerms Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:32 pm

fa0019 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:

But Ireland as co-hosted more than once. Not bad for a geographically tiny country which has never beaten the All Blacks, made the semis of a RWC or even won a single play-off match at the World Cup.

Team performance isn't relevant. If it is then SA's loss to Japan should rule them out or Ireland's recent head to head record v SA. Take your pick. SA's recent win/loss record is also far worse than Ireland's.

Ireland co-hosted once prior to SA hosting. Co-hosting, in other words being thrown a few token games here and there isn't the same as hosting.

Confident of winning a game in the summer tour guns? Difficult to tell yet. Got to see who next SA coach is, big bet is Rassie Erasmus which is good news for the boks. I think its possible but still think 0-3 is the most likely outcome. 3 close games but SA will be fresh, Ireland probably less so and still are coming to terms with their new side.

Yes I would be confident of winning one. The Boks have much greater depth so it is unlikely Ireland could win a series but I think we do have the players to outplay or outsmart SA in at least one test.


Last edited by GunsGerms on Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by fa0019 Tue 09 Feb 2016, 4:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Cape Town to Jozi or Durban are both >1200km away.

Dublin, Edinburgh, London, Cardiff & Paris are all within 800km of each other.

Who gives a hoot about "hosting". I don't think fans could care less as long as they can go and support their teams... and European fans have had ample opportunities to go see RWC matches over the years.

Planes trains and automobiles. You could stop off in your home country on the way to Ireland.

would have to take an extra bag to stock up with tins of baked beans (don't ask but they just can't replicate the recipe) and fish fingers. Amazing what you miss right.

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