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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 30 Jan 2016, 9:36 am

First topic message reminder :



The Rugby World Cup should return to South Africa in 2023, and the tournament should be expanded to 24 teams.

The other three candidates are Ireland, France and Italy. Were any of these successful, that would mean a third straight World Cup in the Northern Hemisphere, even though it is the Southern Hemisphere which overwhelmingly dominates.

It would also entail a return to the Six Nations for the fifth time in just ten tournaments, which is a little ridiculous for a sport with over one hundred affiliated member nations and self-professed global pretentions.

Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border.

France, meanwhile, hosted the World Cup as recently as eight years ago, and was also a co-host in 1991 and 1999.

That leaves Italy, to my mind the most attractive of the European bids, as it is a newcomer to the heavyweight ranks with a large number of registered players. However, World Rugby might want to go with a more established rugby playing nation for its 10th World Cup. Japan is already facing problems as it prepares to stage the 2019 event, with its new Olympic Stadium having now been removed from the venue list.

As for South Africa, it has the biggest and best rugby-purpose stadia in the world - with the possible exception of England, which has just hosted the event for the second time. It has the second largest number of registered players (also behind England), and it is the second most successful rugby playing nation after New Zealand.

By the time 2023 rolls around, an entire generation will have grown up since the last time the tournament was held in South Africa. This, even though the 1995 installment was one of the most successful and spectacular World Cups to date.

So if New Zealand, Austrlalia and England can all host it twice, and France can be involved as either host or co-host on three occasions, why on earth shouldn't it return to South Africa in 2023? Why does World Rugby appear to have lost faith in the republic, having overlooked it for both 2011 and 2019?

It's time to break the cycle. The World Cup can not continue to return to Western Europe on every second occasion. That is a myopic approach and anathema to the globalization cause.

But it does need to return to the Southern Hemisphere in 2023 for what will be the first time in 12 years. Moreover, it needs to return to the African continent, one of the hotbeds of international rugby development in recent decades.

This leads me to my final point in South Africa's favour. World Rugby officials have raised the possibility of an expanded tournament, and this is undoubtedly overdue. Again, with its vast array of rugby-purpose stadia, South Africa's credentials are unsurpassed as a potential host nation for a 24-team World Cup.

The last - and only - increase in teams was from 16 to 20 in 1999. This appears to have been successful, judging by the improved performances of the fringe teams in New Zealand and England.

In fact, no centuries have been recorded since 2003, while Japan's stunning victory over the Springboks this year suggests the days of foregone conclusions is World Cup rugby may be drawing to a close.

That said, a lot of work needs to be done in the interim if the additional teams are going to be genuinely competitive. One of the biggest obstacles to the game's global development is the stratification of its international competitions.

Not only are the elite championships closed-shop, but there is little interaction between the top teams and the emerging nations in between World Cups. How on earth are the up-and-comers supposed to be competitive in the big exam if they have been denied the lessons to prepare in between?

New Zealand and Australia should be playing annual tests with the Pacific Islands and Japan, as should the Six Nations with their Eastern European neighbours. South Africa ought to engage Namibia in a 'Bledisloe Cup'-style annual trophy match, and Hong Kong and Korea should be playing in the Pacific Challenge tournament, alongside the Pacific Islands B teams and Argentina's 'Pampas,' with a possible view to future inclusion in the Pacific Nations Championship.

In addition to this, would it not be a fairly straightforward exercise for Six Nations teams to stop in for tests against Namibia and Uruguay enroute to South Africa and Argentina, respectively - as well as the Pacific Islands while touring New Zealand or Australia?

By the same token, how about the Southern Hemisphere teams playing Georgia, Romania or Russia on their Autumn tours to Europe? Argentina might even take on Spain or Portugal.

If rugby is to more forward, it needs to expand its World Cup, and this can only be successful with a more integrated international rugby calendar.
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Post by Cyril Mon 15 Feb 2016, 10:47 pm

Shouldn't this thread be in off-topic, political point-scoring shoite?

The rugby aspect is peripheral.

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Post by Sin é Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:08 pm

[quote="Rowanbi"]Maybe the fee would be better spent on housing, health and education in SA. The Brazilian Gov. have received much criticism for wasting so much money on the World Cup/Olympics when there is such need in the country.

rowanbi wrote:That's an internal issue. World Rugby will base its decision on what is in the best interests of the tournament, not the host nation. Also, proceeds from such events tend to vastly exceed expenditure, and many are in favor of the less wealthy nations having their chance to host them.

The proceeds of a rugby world cup are not going to build any houses in townships or provide better healthcare for the poverty stricken community of SA.

----------

SA is the only country that plays at high altitude.

So what? The 1995 World Cup was held in SA - and it was one of the best. Nobody complained about the altitude then, did they? This is precisely why continental rotation of the tournament is so important. Staging it in basically the same corner of Europe every second time is a huge advantage to the various host nations and co-hosts, due to both proximity and familiarity with the local conditions. Relatively few nations outside of the UK would be familiar with the freezing, dark, rainy winters of ireland. Aside from SA and Australia, the Pacific Islands would most certainly be disadvantaged - as per usual.

The only reason the 1995 was a success was nothing to do with the rugby that was played, and all down to Mandela.

And lets not forget that the All Blacks believe they were poisoned for the final and said that playing the final at altitude didn't help either.




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Post by Sin é Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:19 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
That is not very water tight.


It's not remotely water tight and they know it. They've basically got the entire world outside of Western Europe down as one geographical block. That's Eurocentric to an extreme. But they know this as well. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland actually have the same prime minister. But they would claim that Africa, Asia, Oceania & South America are all one geographical block and basically all non-Western European teams are playing "at home" when one of these continents hosts the event. It's absurd and they know it. The point is, they are simply not mature enough to accept the South African bid is decisively superior and that they have been defeated on every front in their attempts to deny this. Do you think they could just let it go and walk away like normal people on a normal forum? No chance. Along comes the shoot-the-messenger approach, the hypocritical claims of "trolling," and finally the attempts to destroy the entire thread by throwing in nonsensical arguments - South Africa is too poor, no one wants to play at altitude, the Irish American connection is somehow crucial (but the African American connection apparently doesn't matter at all), etc, etc.

All we have heard is that SA have indicated that they intend to tender to host the competition, so its a bit premature to claim that it is decisively superior!

The main reasons against a SA bid are:

1. High crime rate which makes it unsafe for tourists and which will take from the atmosphere of the tournament.
2. Lions Tour 2 years previously will have financial repercussions on the number of people travelling to both tournaments.

As a matter of interest, what is the American-South African connection?


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Post by Rowanbi Mon 15 Feb 2016, 11:33 pm



1. High crime rate which makes it unsafe for tourists and which will take from the atmosphere of the tournament.
2. Lions Tour 2 years previously will have financial repercussions on the number of people travelling to both tournaments.

As a matter of interest, what is the American-South African connection?



1 Has been discussed at length here. It's a valid point but crime has not effected any of the multitude of major events SA has hosted over the past few decades, a list which includes both the FIFA & rugby world cups.

2 One of the nonsensical arguments I referred to in my previous post. This is real clutching at straws, because Lions tours all preceded past World Cups in the Southern Hemisphere.  Doh

By American-South African connection are you referring to the comment I made about the African-American Africa connection? Well, that's fairly obvious, I should say, and about as irrelevant to this topic as the Irish-American Ireland connection someone brought up earlier.

Reasons for not staging the 2023 event in Ireland:

1 Ireland is tiny
2 It only has two major cities
3 It only has one major rugby-purpose stadium
4 Its weather is horrible
5 It would be the 5th time the tournament has been staged in Western Europe after just 10 events
6 It would be the 5th time the UK have had some involvement in staging it after just 10 events
7 It would be the 3rd time Ireland have had some involvement in staging it after just 10 events
8 It would mean a 3rd successive tournament in the Northern Hemisphere
9 If Ireland host it in 2023, Scotland would likely demand the 2031 event - by right
10 Ireland were opposed to the World Cup concept at the outset

The proceeds of a rugby world cup are not going to build any houses in townships or provide better healthcare for the poverty stricken community of SA.

Perhaps not those proceeds directly profited by the SARFU, but certainly the huge amount certain to be injected into the South Africa economy if it does host the event. It's an internal issue anyway, and no affair of World Rugby's.

The only reason the 1995 was a success was nothing to do with the rugby that was played, and all down to Mandela.

Right, so Jonah Lomu had nothing to do with it either, according to you.

And lets not forget that the All Blacks believe they were poisoned for the final and said that playing the final at altitude didn't help either.

I don't care about their pathetic excuses. We all know you never beat the All Blacks, you only score more points then they do. The 1987 winners were fulltimers competing in an amateur competiton & the refereeing at the 2011 RWC made a farce of the tournament, robbing SA in the quarters and gifting NZ the final.
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Post by Sin é Tue 16 Feb 2016, 12:47 am

[quote="Rowanbi"]

rowanbi wrote:1. High crime rate which makes it unsafe for tourists and which will take from the atmosphere of the tournament.
2. Lions Tour 2 years previously will have financial repercussions on the number of people travelling to both tournaments.

As a matter of interest, what is the American-South African connection?



1 Has been discussed at length here. It's a valid point but crime has not effected any of the multitude of major events SA has hosted over the past few decades, a list which includes both the FIFA & rugby world cups.

Crime has not been discussed at length. Who the hell wants to go to a place that to hire 41,000 dedicated police to police the public areas (as happened at the football world cup in 2010).

Transport was also an issue (from the Guardian):
Gridlock around Johannesburg left Soccer City with thousands of empty seats for the opening ceremony. Long-held concerns about the difficulty of ferrying thousands of fans to remote locations such as Rustenburg were borne out as large queues formed. Although there were still legitimate grumbles to be heard as the tournament progressed, teething troubles were largely ironed out as the event went on.

In a large country with little cross-country public transport network, getting around was always going to compare unfavourably to Japan and South Korea's bullet trains or Germany's supremely efficient network. The most serious issues were before last week's semi-final between Germany and Spain, where hundreds of fans faced a tortuous journey to the match as the airport in Durban struggled to cope with the volume of flights coming in.


Ticketing & Sponsorship (from Guardian)
''The global economic slump, combined with a pricing model which presupposed that an African World Cup could be as lucrative as a European one, left Fifa scrambling to avoid embarrassment. A rearguard action to belatedly make more cheaper tickets available to locals and overhaul the sales system just about did enough. But empty seats were evident throughout the group stages and even at some of the knockout matches. It became a favoured pastime to note the point at which thousands of yellow jacketed volunteers would flood into the stands to fill empty spaces at some matches. Fifa blamed no-shows and problems with distribution of batches of group tickets.

Even more noticeable were the sparsely populated hospitality boxes. Fifa did not lose out because Match, the controversial outfit that has been involved at every World Cup since 1986 but this time signed a contract to resell hospitality for the 2010 and 2014 World Cups, had already paid upfront for the resale rights. Match failed to make a profit on the South African tournament after setting prices too high and falling victim to slashed budgets.''




2 One of the nonsensical arguments I referred to in my previous post. This is real clutching at straws, because Lions tours all preceded past World Cups in the Southern Hemisphere.  Doh

The world cup hasn't been around long enough and the Lions probably not commercial enough up to about 8 years ago to be a consideration.

By American-South African connection are you referring to the comment I made about the African-American Africa connection? Well, that's fairly obvious, I should say, and about as irrelevant to this topic as the Irish-American Ireland connection someone brought up earlier.

The Irish American connection is that it is possible to come to Ireland from the US for a weekend - approx. 6 hours flying time.
To fly from the US to Cape Town would take 20+ hours so not possible.

Sorry, I don't know what is the South African-American connection other than economic?

Reasons for not staging the 2023 event in Ireland:

1 Ireland is tiny: What is wrong with being small?
2 It only has two major cities: Why do you need cities?
3 It only has one major rugby-purpose stadium: England has only one major rugby-purpose stadium as well? Most of their games took place in football stadiums
4 Its weather is horrible The weather is actually very pleasant in September & October - ideal for playing rugby
5 It would be the 5th time the tournament has been staged in Western Europe after just 10 events There are 4 countries in the SH who might want to host the world cup (NZ, Aus, SA & Argentina), there are far more countries in the Northern Hemisphere (Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy, Japan, US & Canada) 9 to 4 would suggest that the NH should be getting double the number of tournaments that the SH is getting
6 It would be the 5th time the UK have had some involvement in staging it after just 10 events (some involvement is not hosting - Ireland is not the UK)
7 It would be the 3rd time Ireland have had some involvement in staging it after just 10 events (some involvement is not hosting)
8 It would mean a 3rd successive tournament in the Northern Hemisphere (so?) closest to its core market
9 If Ireland host it in 2023, Scotland would likely demand the 2031 event - by right - Why?
10 Ireland were opposed to the World Cup concept at the outset - So what? They participated in the first world cup. Ireland were also opposed to professionalism but they embraced it
-------

The proceeds of a rugby world cup are not going to build any houses in townships or provide better healthcare for the poverty stricken community of SA.

Perhaps not those proceeds directly profited by the SARFU, but certainly the huge amount certain to be injected into the South Africa economy if it does host the event. It's an internal issue anyway, and no affair of World Rugby's.

Plenty of money to be made from a Lions Tour 2 years previous without any outlay. As far as I can ascertain the major benefit from the 2010 World Cup was the employment of extra security police for the tournament and the building of the stadia. So long term benefit.

------

The only reason the 1995 was a success was nothing to do with the rugby that was played, and all down to Mandela.

Right, so Jonah Lomu had nothing to do with it either, according to you.

What exactly has the emergence of Jonah Lomu got to do with SA hosting the tournament? He would have had the same impact if the tournament was staged in Timbuctu.

And lets not forget that the All Blacks believe they were poisoned for the final and said that playing the final at altitude didn't help either.

I don't care about their pathetic excuses. We all know you never beat the All Blacks, you only score more points then they do. The 1987 winners were fulltimers competing in an amateur competiton & the refereeing at the 2011 RWC made a farce of the tournament, robbing SA in the quarters and gifting NZ the final.

A serious embarrassment for SA though that the All Blacks were ill for the final. How do you explain that they were all ill. Do you think they just pretended to be. I recall that some players vomited at the side of the pitch, so they were not making excuses.


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Post by Rowanbi Tue 16 Feb 2016, 1:28 am

Crime has not been discussed at length.

Yes it has. Crime was not a factor at the 2010 FIFA World Cup, which FIFA itself rated a 9/10 - almost perfect tournament. But the press will always find things to criticize when a major event is held. That's their job.

The Lions & Irish American comments are ludicrous. & once again I referred to an African-American American connection, not a South African American connection, which would be quite different.

Ok, so you think it's fine to host a RWC in a small nation with two cities (or no cities, for that matter).

South Africa has a vast number of major rugby-purpose stadiums. Ireland has one. England has nothing to do with the comparison between those two rival bidders.

You may regard Ireland as a tropical paradise, but the weather at that time averages 10 degrees in Dublin with a 60% chance of rain, and 9 degrees in Belfast with a 74% chance of rain.

Canada is hardly likely to host a RWC any time soon. The Celtic nations are tiny and too small to host a modern World Cup on their own. So UK, France, Italy, Japan & the US v. SA, Argentina, Australia & NZ is basically what we're looking at. The Southern Hemisphere has won 7 times as many World Cups as the north, btw.

Scotland would become the solitary foundation member of the IRB not to have been the primary host of a World Cup if Ireland were awarded the event in the future. We can be fairly sure they would use that to demand the 2031 tournament, especially as the Home Unions do not work individually in this respect. They work as a closely-knit geographical block, and that's why every single time they host the World Cup the matches are shared around. A vote for Ireland is effectively a vote for another World Cup in the Home Unions, & those nations will want to have it again 8 years later, so they'll lodge another bid under the banner of "Scotland." Pure genius, isn't it? The rest of us are so dumb we don't have a clue what's going on.

Yes, I get the fact that you personally don't regard the phenomenal exploits of Jonah Lomu  as having in any way helped make the 1995 RWC such a memorable event.

But the South Africans stopped him in his tracks in the final, and that's why they won. The big man conceded this himself when he returned to the republic and met his old nemesis Joost Van der Westhuizen - now suffering from motor neurone disease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIpv_KrT4_w

I think it reflects badly on New Zealanders that they cannot accept defeat. But at least the 1995 final made them forget about Bob Deans in 1905 at long last  Yahoo

Did the South Africans whinge after being blatantly robbed in the 2011 quarters? Did the French whinge over the refereeing in the final of that tournament? No, they just walked away and put it behind them.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 7:21 am

You don't even follow rugby do you.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 7:52 am

And how would PIs be disadvantaged Rowanbi?

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Post by fa0019 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 8:52 am

Crime.

Did you say the same about the world cup in 2014 or the forthcoming olympics? I've travelled to Brasil and I'll tell you Rio is a far more dangerous city than Johannesburg, hands down.

Is it as safe as parts of Western Europe... no. Yet are fans and tourists in genuine danger.... no. Much of the crime is situated in the parts you'll never set foot in, tens of kms away from the closest tourist hotspot. It can over-spill, it does over-spill but the way its made out is pathetic... like some dystopian war-zone similar the old Kurt Russell movie "Escape from New York".

SA has a good bid, they have hosted major tournaments before (RWC95 and the FIFA10) and major rugby tours such as 97 & 09 where tens of thousands of fans came to the country. During this time they have shown SA is a safe country for fans, a welcoming country for fans and has the infrastructure in place to provide more than adequate facilities and space for the hoards of fans.

The Ireland bid, if it is a good bid then I'm sure it will be taken seriously. I have my own views, others have their own but slamming SA for things like crime, like... oh SA should be as happy as we were when England got 2015 as when NZ got 2011 rubbish.  The IRE vs FRA match and there was probably more Irish fans in that stadium from Ireland than when they played at Croke Park. SA probably had less than 1000 tourist fans in NZ during the RWC in 2011. Its 12000km away. Its pathetic really.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 8:54 am

And has nothing to do with the bid. The only real differences are going to be that Ireland and Italy are new hosts which is a big tick.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 8:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And has nothing to do with the bid. The only real differences are going to be that Ireland and Italy are new hosts which is a big tick.

If that's how world rugby sees it then so be it. However if its strictly a rotation between tier 1 nations then what it means is that the UK will end up hosting the RWC 3.5 times out of every 10.. compared to the others 1 in every 10. Its a ridiculous notion really.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 9:01 am

Why would it be a rotation between tier one nations?

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Post by Sin é Tue 16 Feb 2016, 10:14 am

[quote="Rowanbi"]Crime has not been discussed at length.

Rowanbi wrote:Yes it has. Crime was not a factor at the 2010 FIFA World Cup, which FIFA itself rated a 9/10 - almost perfect tournament. But the press will always find things to criticize when a major event is held. That's their job.

FIFA (of all organisations) rated it 9/10 Very Happy You really are taking the urine now!


The Lions & Irish American comments are ludicrous. & once again I referred to an African-American American connection, not a South African American connection, which would be quite different.

Whats so ludicrous about being in close proximity 60 a large, wealthy, untapped audience like Canada and the US which Ireland has very good relations and connections with?

Ok, so you think it's fine to host a RWC in a small nation with two cities (or no cities, for that matter).

Of course its fine to hold it in a village if the infrastructure and transport is there to get people in and out - unlike in SA for the Opening Ceremony of the Football World Cup in 2010. Dublin Airport has a capacity to deal with 25m passengers a year, dealing with 100,000+ per day recently (Christmas period) which would be more than adequate for any match held in Dublin.

South Africa has a vast number of major rugby-purpose stadiums. Ireland has one. England has nothing to do with the comparison between those two rival bidders.

England was preferred to SA for the last world cup even though it only used one purpose built rugby stadium. Why was that?


You may regard Ireland as a tropical paradise, but the weather at that time averages 10 degrees in Dublin with a 60% chance of rain, and 9 degrees in Belfast with a 74% chance of rain.

Those figures are inaccurate:

Temperature

The month of September is characterized by falling daily high temperatures, with daily highs decreasing from 18°C to 15°C over the course of the month, exceeding 20°C or dropping below 13°C only one day in ten.

Last Sept. the average day temperatures were 15°C - ideal rugby weather. October was similar also with very little rainfall.

Canada is hardly likely to host a RWC any time soon. The Celtic nations are tiny and too small to host a modern World Cup on their own. So UK, France, Italy, Japan & the US v. SA, Argentina, Australia & NZ is basically what we're looking at. The Southern Hemisphere has won 7 times as many World Cups as the north, btw.

I'm not sure what point you are making, but there has been talk of a joint bid between Canada & US.

The only reason a country would be considered too small is if they don't have the infrastructure to host it (i.e., Stadia, transport, roads, airports, accommodation etc). What do you think will happen to one of the Celtic nations if they do host it, sink into the Atlantic Ocean with an overload of people Very Happy

What point are you making about the SH winning 7 more world cups than NH? That maybe the SH should be handicapped to give the NH a chance?

Scotland would become the solitary foundation member of the IRB not to have been the primary host of a World Cup if Ireland were awarded the event in the future. We can be fairly sure they would use that to demand the 2031 tournament, especially as the Home Unions do not work individually in this respect. They work as a closely-knit geographical block, and that's why every single time they host the World Cup the matches are shared around. A vote for Ireland is effectively a vote for another World Cup in the Home Unions, & those nations will want to have it again 8 years later, so they'll lodge another bid under the banner of "Scotland." Pure genius, isn't it? The rest of us are so dumb we don't have a clue what's going on.

I doubt if Scotland will 'demand' the 2031 hosting rights. They will have to bid like everyone else if they want them. The only people who seem to be 'demanding' anything is you.


Yes, I get the fact that you personally don't regard the phenomenal exploits of Jonah Lomu  as having in any way helped make the 1995 RWC such a memorable event.

But the South Africans stopped him in his tracks in the final, and that's why they won. The big man conceded this himself when he returned to the republic and met his old nemesis Joost Van der Westhuizen - now suffering from motor neurone disease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIpv_KrT4_w

Even you must admit that the world cup was tainted by the ABs food poisoning incident.

Did the South Africans whinge after being blatantly robbed in the 2011 quarters? Did the French whinge over the refereeing in the final of that tournament? No, they just walked away and put it behind them.

Yes they did whinge. Bryce Lawrence lost his job. According to him:

"I [Lawrence] was told I would be brought back in the middle of the year but they dropped me because of pressure from unions like Australia and South Africa behind the scenes and that is the reason for my career change – all because of one game."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/16/bryce-lawrence-retire-referee
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Post by Rowanbi Tue 16 Feb 2016, 12:09 pm

FIFA (of all organisations) rated it 9/10 Very Happy You really are taking the urine now!


Football is a genuine world game, largely thanks to the efforts of its former Brazilian president. Prior to Havelange it was a great deal more stagnant (under English leadership), and the corruption has come during European leadership. Rugby, meanwhile, remains hierarchial and elitist, the wheeling and dealing of the 8-nation core committee is as shameful as the bribing which has so inflicted the parent code. But rugby still has an awful long way to go to become a genuine world game, its own World Cup was inspired by the phenomenally successful FIFA model and is based very much upon it, and there is still a great deal to learn from that code.

Whats so ludicrous about being in close proximity 60 a large, wealthy, untapped audience like Canada and the US which Ireland has very good relations and connections with?


You have a bizarre idea of proximity, unless you also regard South Africa as being close to South America. If that's the case, then there are several emerging nations in that region (plus RWC semi-finalist Argentina) whereas North America only has the US and a fairly stagnant Canada. The Irish-American factor is no more relevant to this discussion than the African-American factor (which you've ignored).

Of course its fine to hold it in a village if the infrastructure and transport is there to get people in and out

Great, next few World Cups should be in Fiji, Swaziland, Dubai and Monaco.


England was preferred to SA for the last world cup even though it only used one purpose built rugby stadium. Why was that?


Because they made a deal with France during bidding for the 2007 event, the old '5 Nations' cabal voted as a block, and secured yet another tournament in their little corner of the globe. They even had to award Japan the following event at the same time to serve as a smokescreen for returning the event to NW Europe for the 4th time in just 8 installments. That's how things works right now, and that's the only reason Ireland even has a chance at 2023. That aside, England can match SA in terms of population, TV & sponsorship potential and stadia (albet it mostly of the football variety), and it has a stronger economy and currency.

Those figures are inaccurate:

So contact the Irish meteorological service and tell them they are wildly mistaken - Ireland is actually a tropical paradise and all talk of freezing temperature, incessant rain and scarcity of daylight hours is all just a conspiracy theory against their prospects of staging the Rugby World Cup.

I'm not sure what point you are making, but there has been talk of a joint bid between Canada & US.

In that case you shouldn't count them as two nations. Anyway, I actually agree that alternating it between the two hemispheres has a limited lifespan, and I was not opposed to the cycle being broken when Japan was awarded the 2019 event. However, that makes two in a row in the north, and another European host nation in 2023 would make three, which would not be fair given one of the Southern Hemisphere powerhouses has put a very solid bid on the table. There does need to be some kind of continental rotation in order to encourage and foster the game's international development. That's as clear as daylight.

I doubt if Scotland will 'demand' the 2031 hosting rights


I don't, because it would be a "Scottish" bid in name only. In reality this would be yet another World Cup for the Home Unions - four nations within a geographical region a fifth the size of South Africa (and even smaller than NZ), three of which have the same prime minister. This would be the equivalent of following up this year's Olympics in Rio with Sao Paulo hosting in 2024, Salvador in 2032 and Brasilia in 2040. They're all different cities after all...

Even you must admit that the world cup was tainted by the ABs food poisoning incident.

No, it was tainted by their pathetic excuses. Even the late great Jonah Lomu himself admitted that Springbok defence had won the game (see link in my previous post; it's actually a very touching video).

es they did whinge. Bryce Lawrence lost his job. According to him:

If there were complaints about the reffing in 2011 I didn't see anything in the news from here, so it can't have been big news. Was just an official complaint made through the proper channels, or did the players, coaching staff, fans and journalists all run around crying about it?
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Post by fa0019 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 12:30 pm

Sine

not sure why you want to bring up 1995 as tainted. It was an amazing tournament. NZ said they were ill for the final, I believe them in part. However its been blown all out of proportion. The reason... not a single change to the lineup.
Eric Rush has gone out on record to say he was not impacted, that he didn't eat at dinner as he ran off to a Pizza Hut with some mates (again none of these got ill). Eric Rush was first choice wing reserve, Jeff Wilson was apparently very sick.

So tell me why didn't Rush play? He was an amazing player and picked to star in it before Lomu emerged. The coaches say they didn't want to spook the players or the fans. Complete bull, the coaches failed big time. They couldn't face reality and play their best team available.
A Jeff Wilson at 85-95% is nowhere near as good as a Eric Rush at full fitness was. They got ill, too bad but management failed to act, blinked at the crucial time and deserved to lose.

That fact you are continually make petty slights on SA such as crime such as the tainted 95 final rather than state we are confident of our bid and hope we succeed sort of shows you are not confident at all. Its a little pathetic.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 12:46 pm

You're avoiding Rowanbi.

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Post by Sin é Tue 16 Feb 2016, 4:43 pm

fa0019 wrote:Sine

not sure why you want to bring up 1995 as tainted. It was an amazing tournament. NZ said they were ill for the final, I believe them in part. However its been blown all out of proportion. The reason... not a single change to the lineup.
Eric Rush has gone out on record to say he was not impacted, that he didn't eat at dinner as he ran off to a Pizza Hut with some mates (again none of these got ill). Eric Rush was first choice wing reserve, Jeff Wilson was apparently very sick.

So tell me why didn't Rush play? He was an amazing player and picked to star in it before Lomu emerged. The coaches say they didn't want to spook the players or the fans. Complete bull, the coaches failed big time. They couldn't face reality and play their best team available.
A Jeff Wilson at 85-95% is nowhere near as good as a Eric Rush at full fitness was. They got ill, too bad but management failed to act, blinked at the crucial time and deserved to lose.

That fact you are continually make petty slights on SA such as crime such as the tainted 95 final rather than state we are confident of our bid and hope we succeed sort of shows you are not confident at all. Its a little pathetic.

Here is an recent account from Colin Meads. He believes it was milk. He says: "There were 36 of us in the tour party altogether. And out of the 36, I think 30 or 31 went down or were sick at some time."

He also says he regrets they didn't tell anyone.

http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/76963.html


By the way I pointed out the problems at the 1995 World Cup because Rowanbi is claiming it was the best tournament yet, and SA deserve to host it because of that. It will be hard for SA to pull another Mandela rabbit out of the hat for 2023.

From what I can gather, the 2011 World Cup seems to have been really enjoyed by anyone who went to NZ and is probably regarded as the best ever.
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Post by fa0019 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 5:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Sine

not sure why you want to bring up 1995 as tainted. It was an amazing tournament. NZ said they were ill for the final, I believe them in part. However its been blown all out of proportion. The reason... not a single change to the lineup.
Eric Rush has gone out on record to say he was not impacted, that he didn't eat at dinner as he ran off to a Pizza Hut with some mates (again none of these got ill). Eric Rush was first choice wing reserve, Jeff Wilson was apparently very sick.

So tell me why didn't Rush play? He was an amazing player and picked to star in it before Lomu emerged. The coaches say they didn't want to spook the players or the fans. Complete bull, the coaches failed big time. They couldn't face reality and play their best team available.
A Jeff Wilson at 85-95% is nowhere near as good as a Eric Rush at full fitness was. They got ill, too bad but management failed to act, blinked at the crucial time and deserved to lose.

That fact you are continually make petty slights on SA such as crime such as the tainted 95 final rather than state we are confident of our bid and hope we succeed sort of shows you are not confident at all. Its a little pathetic.

Here is an recent account from Colin Meads. He believes it was milk. He says: "There were 36 of us in the tour party altogether. And out of the 36, I think 30 or 31 went down or were sick at some time."

He also says he regrets they didn't tell anyone.

http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/76963.html


By the way I pointed out the problems at the 1995 World Cup because Rowanbi is claiming it was the best tournament yet, and SA deserve to host it because of that. It will be hard for SA to pull another Mandela rabbit out of the hat for 2023.

From what I can gather, the 2011 World Cup seems to have been really enjoyed by anyone who went to NZ and is probably regarded as the best ever.

So why no single change to the lineup? Are you seriously suggesting that first XV were the least impacted XV players available? I know that to be false btw due to Eric Rush's testimony. He was fit. If they were as bad as they said then they should have made changes. Its as simple as that. Who cares if players said they really wanted to play... this is the world cup we're talking about not individuals personal glory. The coach isn't there simply to plump up the ego's of the current best... if a great like Meads couldn't drop his star players for fitter and better alternatives than really its a breakdown in management.

Seriously the 2011 RWC was the best ever... what you been smoking? Perhaps those who attended Tindall's stag do but for the rest the rugby was a little below par.

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Post by Sin é Tue 16 Feb 2016, 5:26 pm

[quote="Rowanbi"]FIFA (of all organisations) rated it 9/10 Very Happy You really are taking the urine now!


Football is a genuine world game, largely thanks to the efforts of its former Brazilian president. Prior to Havelange it was a great deal more stagnant (under English leadership), and the corruption has come during European leadership. Rugby, meanwhile, remains hierarchial and elitist, the wheeling and dealing of the 8-nation core committee is as shameful as the bribing which has so inflicted the parent code. But rugby still has an awful long way to go to become a genuine world game, its own World Cup was inspired by the phenomenally successful FIFA model and is based very much upon it, and there is still a great deal to learn from that code.

Waffle. Football maybe a genuine world sport, but FIFA is corrupt and very likely to have been bribed by SA to give the World Cup a good review.

Then of course there were the vuvuvelas, which thankfully are now banned Rolling Eyes


Whats so ludicrous about being in close proximity 60 a large, wealthy, untapped audience like Canada and the US which Ireland has very good relations and connections with?


You have a bizarre idea of proximity, unless you also regard South Africa as being close to South America. If that's the case, then there are several emerging nations in that region (plus RWC semi-finalist Argentina) whereas North America only has the US and a fairly stagnant Canada. The Irish-American factor is no more relevant to this discussion than the African-American factor (which you've ignored).

Its simple - 6 hours flying time to New York. South Africa to South America 15 hours+ (not to mention the economic differences between North & South America.

It is possible to come to Ireland for a one off game from the US (as happens every year now for Amercian College Football to stage a game in Ireland with 40,000 coming over for Notre Dame (mid West) & Navy (East Coast) game 2 years ago.

----

Of course its fine to hold it in a village if the infrastructure and transport is there to get people in and out

Great, next few World Cups should be in Fiji, Swaziland, Dubai and Monaco.

If they have the infrastructure, stadia, transport etc to stage and want to, why not?

---
England was preferred to SA for the last world cup even though it only used one purpose built rugby stadium. Why was that?

Because they made a deal with France during bidding for the 2007 event, the old '5 Nations' cabal voted as a block, and secured yet another tournament in their little corner of the globe. They even had to award Japan the following event at the same time to serve as a smokescreen for returning the event to NW Europe for the 4th time in just 8 installments. That's how things works right now, and that's the only reason Ireland even has a chance at 2023. That aside, England can match SA in terms of population, TV & sponsorship potential and stadia (albet it mostly of the football variety), and it has a stronger economy and currency.

France run world rugby, assisted by SA. There is no love lost between France and the other 6 Nation countries, but particularly England. The executive committee of World Rugby only has 1 home nations representative and no Irish representative.

http://www.worldrugby.org/organisation/structure/executive-committee

Mind you, I bet Lapassat will knife the Saffer in the back (Hoskins, his vice chairman). Just like he did Beaumont.


Those figures are inaccurate:

[quote]So contact the Irish meteorological service and tell them they are wildly mistaken - Ireland is actually a tropical paradise and all talk of freezing temperature, incessant rain and scarcity of daylight hours is all just a conspiracy theory against their prospects of staging the Rugby World Cup.

I'm not sure what point you are making, but there has been talk of a joint bid between Canada & US.

Yes. Vancouver would be great.


In that case you shouldn't count them as two nations. Anyway, I actually agree that alternating it between the two hemispheres has a limited lifespan, and I was not opposed to the cycle being broken when Japan was awarded the 2019 event. However, that makes two in a row in the north, and another European host nation in 2023 would make three, which would not be fair given one of the Southern Hemisphere powerhouses has put a very solid bid on the table. There does need to be some kind of continental rotation in order to encourage and foster the game's international development. That's as clear as daylight.

I think its far more to do with time zones and broadcasting times as to where the best place to stage it are.

-----

I doubt if Scotland will 'demand' the 2031 hosting rights


I don't, because it would be a "Scottish" bid in name only. In reality this would be yet another World Cup for the Home Unions - four nations within a geographical region a fifth the size of South Africa (and even smaller than NZ), three of which have the same prime minister. This would be the equivalent of following up this year's Olympics in Rio with Sao Paulo hosting in 2024, Salvador in 2032 and Brasilia in 2040. They're all different cities after all…

Do you not understand that I live in a Republic, separate to the UK. We have our own parliament and membership of the EU. We use Euros, while the other home nations use Sterling. Its like you are claiming that SA & Madigascar are the one country. We even have our own language, Gaelic and we also have our own games which are unique to the Island of Ireland. Stop this home nations nonsense. Its just not relevant anymore.

----

Even you must admit that the world cup was tainted by the ABs food poisoning incident.

No, it was tainted by their pathetic excuses. Even the late great Jonah Lomu himself admitted that Springbok defence had won the game (see link in my previous post; it's actually a very touching video).

Ive linked an article below where Colin Meads says that approx. 30 of the ABs were violently ill 48 hours before the game and that he now regrets saying so at the time.

es they did whinge. Bryce Lawrence lost his job. According to him:

If there were complaints about the reffing in 2011 I didn't see anything in the news from here, so it can't have been big news. Was just an official complaint made through the proper channels, or did the players, coaching staff, fans and journalists all run around crying about it?

Read what Bryce Lawrence has to say here. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/16/bryce-lawrence-retire-referee

Lawrence, who refereed 25 Tests, received threats on social media and was told to take a break from Test rugby.

"I was told I would be brought back in the middle of the year but they dropped me because of pressure from unions like Australia and South Africa behind the scenes and that is the reason for my career change – all because of one game."

He said the NZRU and World rugby backed him.

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Post by Sin é Tue 16 Feb 2016, 9:40 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Sine

not sure why you want to bring up 1995 as tainted. It was an amazing tournament. NZ said they were ill for the final, I believe them in part. However its been blown all out of proportion. The reason... not a single change to the lineup.
Eric Rush has gone out on record to say he was not impacted, that he didn't eat at dinner as he ran off to a Pizza Hut with some mates (again none of these got ill). Eric Rush was first choice wing reserve, Jeff Wilson was apparently very sick.

So tell me why didn't Rush play? He was an amazing player and picked to star in it before Lomu emerged. The coaches say they didn't want to spook the players or the fans. Complete bull, the coaches failed big time. They couldn't face reality and play their best team available.
A Jeff Wilson at 85-95% is nowhere near as good as a Eric Rush at full fitness was. They got ill, too bad but management failed to act, blinked at the crucial time and deserved to lose.

That fact you are continually make petty slights on SA such as crime such as the tainted 95 final rather than state we are confident of our bid and hope we succeed sort of shows you are not confident at all. Its a little pathetic.

Here is an recent account from Colin Meads. He believes it was milk. He says: "There were 36 of us in the tour party altogether. And out of the 36, I think 30 or 31 went down or were sick at some time."

He also says he regrets they didn't tell anyone.

http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/76963.html


By the way I pointed out the problems at the 1995 World Cup because Rowanbi is claiming it was the best tournament yet, and SA deserve to host it because of that. It will be hard for SA to pull another Mandela rabbit out of the hat for 2023.

From what I can gather, the 2011 World Cup seems to have been really enjoyed by anyone who went to NZ and is probably regarded as the best ever.

So why no single change to the lineup? Are you seriously suggesting that first XV were the least impacted XV players available? I know that to be false btw due to Eric Rush's testimony. He was fit. If they were as bad as they said then they should have made changes. Its as simple as that. Who cares if players said they really wanted to play... this is the world cup we're talking about not individuals personal glory. The coach isn't there simply to plump up the ego's of the current best... if a great like Meads couldn't drop his star players for fitter and better alternatives than really its a breakdown in management.

Seriously the 2011 RWC was the best ever... what you been smoking? Perhaps those who attended Tindall's stag do but for the rest the rugby was a little below par.

I'm no expert on what happened back then, but there are a lot of articles out there on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5iQBLgndTU

Here is a video of some of the players talking about it (including Rush & Fitzpatrick).
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Post by Rowanbi Tue 16 Feb 2016, 10:59 pm

FIFA is corrupt

Football is a genuine world game, largely thanks to the efforts of its former Brazilian president. Prior to Havelange it was a great deal more stagnant (under English leadership), and the corruption has come during European leadership. Rugby, meanwhile, remains hierarchial and elitist, the wheeling and dealing of the 8-nation core committee is as shameful as the bribing which has so inflicted the parent code. But rugby still has an awful long way to go to become a genuine world game, its own World Cup was inspired by the phenomenally successful FIFA model and is based very much upon it, and there is still a great deal to learn from that code.

very likely to have been bribed by SA to give the World Cup a good review.


Waffle. There's actually more evidence to suggest New Zealand's Oceania delegate was bribed to go against the wishes of his federation and cast the deciding vote in Germany's favor - at the expense of South Africa - to host the 2006 event.

Its simple - 6 hours flying time to New York

It comes up as 7 1/2 hours on my google search, and 10 1/2 hours to the West Coast. Hardly a day trip, nor even a weekender for that matter. 7 1/2 hours is actually the same as from Istanbul to Dar es Salaam, Tanzania (I've done it), while 10 1/2 hours would get me to South Africa. So your claims of "close proximity" are indeed ludicrous.

The executive committee of World Rugby only has 1 home nations representative and no Irish representative.

More waffle. The Home Unions have two votes apiece on the core committee which dominates the board that will determing the World Cup host. That's all that's relevant here.

Do you not understand that I live in a Republic, separate to the UK. We have our own parliament and membership of the EU. We use Euros, while the other home nations use Sterling

I haven't suggest otherwise. Athough Madagascar is a lot further from South Africa than Ireland is from Britain. Namibia and South Africa would have been a more apt comparison. But the other three Home Unions are part of the same nation.

If they have the infrastructure, stadia, transport etc to stage and want to, why not?

Why not? Because there are much larger and vastly superior nations capable of staging the tournament is why not.


Ive linked an article below where Colin Meads says that approx. 30 of the ABs were violently ill 48 hours before the game and that he now regrets saying so at the time.


Yet Jonah Lomu himself has attributed the defeat to South Africa's mighty defence that day. I even posted the Youtube clip so you could hear him say this for yourself. But you ignored it, because that doesn't support your narrative. Bottom line is, South Africa won the 1995 final and it was a fantastic tournament by all accounts, arguably the greatest World Cup to date and certainly the best of the 20th century editions.
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Post by doctor_grey Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:00 am

FIFA is corruptAnd the people who play soccer globally are dangerous people.  Not the model I would use.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/soccer/soccer-player-kills-referee-in-shooting-rampage-after-receiving-red-card/ar-BBpxBa1?ocid=spartandhp

very likely to have been bribed by SA to give the World Cup a good review. Who knows?  Bribery in soccer seems institutionalised.  

Its simple - 6 hours flying time to New YorkIt's the same flight time from New York to Shannon as to Los Angeles.  From an American p.o.v., just a commute.  London and Dublin are no more than an hour more.  
14 hours from New York to Johannesburg.  11 hours from London.  That's a haul.

The executive committee of World Rugby only has 1 home nations representative and no Irish representative.What?  They racist?

Do you not understand that I live in a Republic, separate to the UK. We have our own parliament and membership of the EU. We use Euros, while the other home nations use SterlingIreland is Namibia?  

If they have the infrastructure, stadia, transport etc to stage and want to, why not?You omitted having good beer and pretty women as criteria for awarding a RWC.  In fact, beer and pretty women are top of my list.


Ive linked an article below where Colin Meads says that approx. 30 of the ABs were violently ill 48 hours before the game and that he now regrets saying so at the time.All's fair in love and war and Rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 8:06 am

Vastly superior nations eh Rowanbi?

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 17 Feb 2016, 11:31 am

The 2010 FIFa World Cup was the most profitable ever at the time, making almost 3.7 billion dollars for the organization, up almost 25% on Germany 2006. It has since been surpassed by 2014 Brazil, however. Almost 3 million people attended matches at the 2010 event. I wonder why the FIFA World Cup has never gone back to England, though they've bid a number of times since hosting it half a century ago.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 11:35 am

Vastly superior nations Rowanbi? Showing bias a bit. Pacific islanders don't like mud? Haven't heard guff like that since the 80s.

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Post by Exiledinborders Wed 17 Feb 2016, 12:37 pm

Rowanbi wrote:I wonder why the FIFA World Cup has never gone back to England, though they've bid a number of times since hosting it half a century ago.
Because unlike South Africa, England failed to make a payment of ten million dollars to "support Caribbean football". I wonder why South Africa which is not a very rich country would be wanting to "support Caribbean football" as opposed to developing its own. Of course there is no need to wonder. The fact that Thabo Mbeki and Sepp Blatter agreed the deal and the money ended up in Jack Warner's bank account tells you all that you need to know.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 17 Feb 2016, 1:38 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:I wonder why the FIFA World Cup has never gone back to England, though they've bid a number of times since hosting it half a century ago.
Because unlike South Africa, England failed to make a payment of ten million dollars to "support Caribbean football". I wonder why South Africa which is not a very rich country would be wanting to "support Caribbean football" as opposed to developing its own. Of course there is no need to wonder. The fact that Thabo Mbeki and Sepp Blatter agreed the deal and the money ended up in Jack Warner's bank account tells you all that you need to know.

This doesn't explain why England has been rejected repeatedly over the past half century. They failed in their bids for the 1990, 2006 and 2018 tournaments as well. I'm sure you will claim bribery was a factor in 2018, but probably there has never been a more controversial decision than when New Zealand's Oceania delegate defied the wishes of his federation and voted for Germany in 2006, thereby single-handedly robbing South Africa of the tournament.

Anyway, South Africa hosted the most profitable FIFA World Cup EVER (at the time) in 2010, so the suggestion rugby needs to return its showpiece tournament to the Home Unions every 8 years because it's the only guaranteed 'money pit' is ludicrous. The RWC is one of the biggest sporting events in the world and will turn a profit wherever it's staged. The only reason it has returned to that region so often is because of the stranglehold the foundation members maintain on an organization which has grown to include over 100 nations. High time the cycle was broken and continental rotation commenced in earnest.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 17 Feb 2016, 1:48 pm

Rowan reminds me of all those cycling fans that went for years utterly convinced that Lance Armstrong could'nt have been enjoying chemical assistance.....because he said he wasnt.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:01 pm

No answer then Row?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:28 pm

SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:29 pm

Strong accusation.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:43 pm

fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:43 pm

not sure why its so controversial? Its plain to see

Why did Wales get home fixtures in Wales for their big match vs AUS in 07... I mean what a coincidence right?
Same with England 15 they got 2 matches in Cardiff.... why because England were struggling to find enough stadia in their own country? The fact that the stadiums were chosen AFTER the pools were decided showed for instance they were gifted a home tie with Fiji. It was a set up, a boardroom agreement between unions.


Last edited by fa0019 on Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:45 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:44 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via  enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

So how is France 07 and England 15 beneficial treatment to Wales NOT the same? Financially its bigger than any bung we'd likely see.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:47 pm

Bribery though?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bribery though?

Bribery is the act of giving money, goods or other forms of recompense to a recipient in exchange for an alteration of their behavior (to the benefit/interest of the giver) that the recipient would otherwise not alter.

sounds like bribery to me.

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Post by Sin é Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:54 pm

fa0019 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via  enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

So how is France 07 and England 15 beneficial treatment to Wales NOT the same? Financially its bigger than any bung we'd likely see.

I think its acceptable to bargain your vote for games such as this. The difference between between all the FIFA corruption though is that the money is going into someone like Jack Warner's back pocket whereas the WRU money is being reinvested back into rugby in Wales, not someone's back pocket.

I think the Irish vote went to New Zealand at the time in return for the New Zealand team to play Munster for the opening of Thomond Park and NZRU seem to be very supportive of Ireland's bid for the '23 World Cup.

edit: other stuff that will influence the vote - Ireland playing the ABs in Chicago will probably win their support. Ireland (& SA) sending teams to take part in the Tiblisi Cup etc. should win support as well.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:00 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via  enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

So how is France 07 and England 15 beneficial treatment to Wales NOT the same? Financially its bigger than any bung we'd likely see.

I think its acceptable to bargain your vote for games such as this. The difference between between all the FIFA corruption though is that the money is going into someone like Jack Warner's back pocket whereas the WRU money is being invested reinvested back into rugby in Wales, not someone's back pocket.

I think the Irish vote went to New Zealand at the time in return for the New Zealand team to play Munster for the opening of Thomond Park and NZRU seem to be very supportive of Ireland's bid for the '23 World Cup.

Wales improved their chances of qualifying in 07 by getting their "pool battle of the titans" match with AUS in Cardiff.. didn't matter in the end but they improved their chances. The union will also have benefitted financially.
Just because a bribe doesn't go into the pockets of some sleazy official and is spent on other things doesn't make it not a bribe.

Some match vs. Munster for a touring NZ side is not in the same league, isn't even in the same sport. Those things are fine... like David Beckhams offer of school schools in the Carribean, a gesture but not a bribe.

Getting your own team a theoretical improvement in qualification of the tournament, getting a financial boost by hosting matches in the same tournament... those are bribes.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:01 pm

fa0019 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via  enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

So how is France 07 and England 15 beneficial treatment to Wales NOT the same? Financially its bigger than any bung we'd likely see.


Because South Africa takes corruption to a much more serious level, when you start selecting International teams for tournaments on criteria other than merit it brings the whole game not only into question but the big sponsors of other nations start getting anxious for being aligned. and the damage done to the whole game Internationally could take Rugby back decades.

We all love the contribution that South Africa has made to rugby over the last century, and World Rugby needs South Africa, and vicky versy, but whilst the South African Govt has such governance over rugby is it not prudent for the World body to just keep away from it?

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Post by Sin é Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:10 pm

fa0019 wrote:not sure why its so controversial? Its plain to see

Why did Wales get home fixtures in Wales for their big match vs AUS in 07... I mean what a coincidence right?
Same with England 15 they got 2 matches in Cardiff.... why because England were struggling to find enough stadia in their own country? The fact that the stadiums were chosen AFTER the pools were decided showed for instance they were gifted a home tie with Fiji. It was a set up, a boardroom agreement between unions.

I'd imagine it was an effort of the RFU to ensure that games such as Uruguay had a full house.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:11 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via  enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

So how is France 07 and England 15 beneficial treatment to Wales NOT the same? Financially its bigger than any bung we'd likely see.


Because South Africa takes corruption to a much more serious level, when you start selecting International teams for tournaments on criteria other than merit it brings the whole game not only into question but the big sponsors of other nations start getting anxious for being aligned. and the damage done to the whole game Internationally could take Rugby back decades.

We all love the contribution that South Africa has made to rugby over the last century, and World Rugby needs South Africa, and vicky versy, but whilst the South African Govt has such governance over rugby is it not prudent for the World body to just keep away from it?

I assume you mean picking players outside of merit such as race.

I think the party line is if two players are equal you pick the African/Coloured chap. However given SA was banned from competing in sport for playing simply white guys I think its something world rugby accepts for now.

No one likes it but that's the way it is for now. Its not corruption. It doesn't impact the first team only the squad... a few exceptions such as Stefan Terblanche aside I don't think any A grade white player has had his bok credentials cut... the fringe guys absolutely but not the A grade first teams bar Stefan. I personally think its a bit of an albatross around the neck of the boks, lowers morale and they would be far better without it but that's just my opinion.

If thats the case then you could make a case for certain nations have project foreigners actively recruited for the national team too. If anything picking players that might not be your very very best is only hindering your chances whereas some (and I include my own ancestral home here) when they look at their current stock not matching up they simply go to the super rugby shopping list and see what they can afford. Its rather distasteful regardless of whether they say... oh they only came for the club job... the clubs which are 100% owned by the unions where the union has to sign off/approve the purchase.

Countries are literally buying success, now that is not exactly clean either... legal but not Tony Blair whiter than white... ok bad example! Wink

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:13 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:not sure why its so controversial? Its plain to see

Why did Wales get home fixtures in Wales for their big match vs AUS in 07... I mean what a coincidence right?
Same with England 15 they got 2 matches in Cardiff.... why because England were struggling to find enough stadia in their own country? The fact that the stadiums were chosen AFTER the pools were decided showed for instance they were gifted a home tie with Fiji. It was a set up, a boardroom agreement between unions.

I'd imagine it was an effort of the RFU to ensure that games such as Uruguay had a full house.


Come on Sine.... Wales would have sold out any match in England regardless.

And France 07 when they got their apparent key match vs. AUS in Cardiff?

And England 15 when they got their other key match vs. Fiji in Cardiff?

The reason they didn't get the AUS match in Cardiff was probably because the RFU saw it as a 3 horse race and didn't want to help anyone directly bar England. Had Wales been in another group I don't doubt they would have got a home fixture for their key clashes.

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Post by Sin é Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:29 pm

Actually, the Welsh don't travel that well. They love the Millennium stadium though. For instance in 2007 when Wales played Fiji in Nantes, attendance was only 37,000. In the same group, Canada v. Australia got 35,000.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:36 pm

fa0019 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:SA would have got the world cup anyhow regardless of the bribes. It was clear FIFA wanted an African host and SA was and still is the only African nation with the infrastructure to put on a good enough show. It was certainly dissappointing but not surprising that the govt. gave into doing bribes given their track record. Then again France 98, Germany 06... they were all secured that way. In that particular business, they did what was necessary but the truth is anti-corruption is very much a Western European idea. Around the world its not seen as a bad thing, this is the way they have always done things from marrying off their daughters, trading with neighbours and in the modern day securing hosting rights. I'm not saying its ok but its a little obtuse to view things from a purely anglo-saxon looking glass, my time around the world has taught me that.

Anyhow, why does Wales always get home fixtures in European RWCs? Is that not also bribery? They simply say... give us some fixtures and we'll give you our vote. That's bribery. Just because its not cash or a week in the Bahamas, contraceptives supplied doesn't mean its not bribery. Is France 07 and England 15 just as tainted? The revenue received by the WRU and Wales in general is probably more than any million dollar bung to be truthful albeit spread amongst the union, businesses, hotels etc.


I hear what you say that corruption is widespread globally, but if some countries are able to persuade authorities in power via  enticements, then after a while these things have a tendancy to turn round and bite you in the Rse ie FIFA, so is World Rugby not being smart by avoiding South Africa at the present time?

So how is France 07 and England 15 beneficial treatment to Wales NOT the same? Financially its bigger than any bung we'd likely see.


Because South Africa takes corruption to a much more serious level, when you start selecting International teams for tournaments on criteria other than merit it brings the whole game not only into question but the big sponsors of other nations start getting anxious for being aligned. and the damage done to the whole game Internationally could take Rugby back decades.

We all love the contribution that South Africa has made to rugby over the last century, and World Rugby needs South Africa, and vicky versy, but whilst the South African Govt has such governance over rugby is it not prudent for the World body to just keep away from it?

I assume you mean picking players outside of merit such as race.

I think the party line is if two players are equal you pick the African/Coloured chap. However given SA was banned from competing in sport for playing simply white guys I think its something world rugby accepts for now.

No one likes it but that's the way it is for now. Its not corruption. It doesn't impact the first team only the squad... a few exceptions such as Stefan Terblanche aside I don't think any A grade white player has had his bok credentials cut... the fringe guys absolutely but not the A grade first teams bar Stefan. I personally think its a bit of an albatross around the neck of the boks, lowers morale and they would be far better without it but that's just my opinion.

If thats the case then you could make a case for certain nations have project foreigners actively recruited for the national team too. If anything picking players that might not be your very very best is only hindering your chances whereas some (and I include my own ancestral home here) when they look at their current stock not matching up they simply go to the super rugby shopping list and see what they can afford. Its rather distasteful regardless of whether they say... oh they only came for the club job... the clubs which are 100% owned by the unions where the union has to sign off/approve the purchase.

Countries are literally buying success, now that is not exactly clean either... legal but not Tony Blair whiter than white... ok bad example! Wink

Of course its picking players on the colour of their skin, and how can it only affect the squad and not the first team? the first team is from within the squad.
I can not think of any country that picks project players on the colour of their skin.
Of course the chances of the South African team are hindered, but do you really think that is of any concern of Jacob Zuma.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:44 pm

I think when we're talking about bribery and other nations being inferior we're on dodgy ground in general.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:56 pm

7.5

The question I think is legitimate though as long as we're all sensible! Too much to ask??? (I shouldn't have even bothered right Wink )
Look the question came about how SA secured FIFA2010, it has come across that they paid what we would call a bribe and you could rightly question their suitability for hosting other events off the back of such practices.

However rugby does have a good opinion of itself in truth. We think its a game played by gentleman, that we have honour, others don't etc. I think the truth is a little bit yes, a little bit no.
The above example is IMO a clear example of bribery. It directly benefited Wales/WRU both financially and on the pitch. Its a bribe.

Well thats bad Wales right but also bad France and bad England because they paid the bribes just like SA did to secure FIFA2010... I don't see a distinction.

Lets not pretend its all to do with the merits of the bid... it won't be. Whoever secures the bid will do so as they have best kissed up to other unions... Ok vote for me and I'll vote for you next time etc, they cash in chips, they take chips out. That's boardroom negotiations in the modern world. Maybe the best bid on its own merits will win but regardless no one will leave it to chance, they'll roll out the red carpet, get their wives to flirt with so and so the lot.

We don't live in utopia guys... we live in the real world.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:59 pm

For me clearly it isn't bribery. I think when you look at some of the things FIFA go tup to it's world away and even they are fighting those accusations. By saying Wales are bribing openly you're probably going to get all these comments removed (and I still want to know what Rowanbi means by inferior nations, though he will continue to ignore) or have the thread closed.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 4:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me clearly it isn't bribery. I think when you look at some of the things FIFA go tup to it's world away and even they are fighting those accusations. By saying Wales are bribing openly you're probably going to get all these comments removed (and I still want to know what Rowanbi means by inferior nations, though he will continue to ignore) or have the thread closed.

ok but answer this then (my request to you obviously)

This is a below definition of bribery.

Bribery is the act of giving money, goods or other forms of recompense to a recipient in exchange for an alteration of their behavior (to the benefit/interest of the giver) that the recipient would otherwise not alter

Now in case of the France 07 and England 15...

a) did the host act in giving goods of other forms of recompense to Wales/WRU? In my opinion, giving them matches and home matches the answer is yes.
b) was it to their benefit? Absolutely, both financially and from a rugby perspective too.

Then if you answer yes to both... its a bribe.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 4:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:For me clearly it isn't bribery. I think when you look at some of the things FIFA go tup to it's world away and even they are fighting those accusations. By saying Wales are bribing openly you're probably going to get all these comments removed (and I still want to know what Rowanbi means by inferior nations, though he will continue to ignore) or have the thread closed.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/sep/15/rugbyunion.rugbyworldcup200716

This is what the article states

"The French promised matches to Wales, Scotland and Ireland as they battled with England for the right to host the tournament".

The International Rugby Board originally insisted that the World Cup this year would be a stand-alone tournament, that is it would be held only in one country. England and France both submitted bids to that effect, but the French, at the 11th hour and with the connivance of the Board, offered matches to the Celtic unions in return for their votes. Wales, citing an agreement with France in 1999, pressed for, and got, a quarter-final

now how is that NOT bribery? By definition it a) helped win a bid which may not have been secured, b) it benefited the voters from Scotland & Wales both financially and from a rugby perspective. Please note, both Wales vs. AUS and Scotland vs. NZ (their respected "money/key" pool ties) in 2007 were held in their home stadiums, something approved only AFTER the pools where chosen.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 17 Feb 2016, 4:18 pm

fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:For me clearly it isn't bribery. I think when you look at some of the things FIFA go tup to it's world away and even they are fighting those accusations. By saying Wales are bribing openly you're probably going to get all these comments removed (and I still want to know what Rowanbi means by inferior nations, though he will continue to ignore) or have the thread closed.

ok but answer this then (my request to you obviously)

This is a below definition of bribery.

Bribery is the act of giving money, goods or other forms of recompense to a recipient in exchange for an alteration of their behavior (to the benefit/interest of the giver) that the recipient would otherwise not alter

Now in case of the France 07 and England 15...

a) did the host act in giving goods of other forms of recompense to Wales/WRU? In my opinion, giving them matches and home matches the answer is yes.
b) was it to their benefit? Absolutely, both financially and from a rugby perspective too.

Then if you answer yes to both... its a bribe.

To prove bribery you have to prove that the behaviour "was altered" by the "act of giving".

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