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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 30 Jan 2016, 9:36 am

First topic message reminder :



The Rugby World Cup should return to South Africa in 2023, and the tournament should be expanded to 24 teams.

The other three candidates are Ireland, France and Italy. Were any of these successful, that would mean a third straight World Cup in the Northern Hemisphere, even though it is the Southern Hemisphere which overwhelmingly dominates.

It would also entail a return to the Six Nations for the fifth time in just ten tournaments, which is a little ridiculous for a sport with over one hundred affiliated member nations and self-professed global pretentions.

Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border.

France, meanwhile, hosted the World Cup as recently as eight years ago, and was also a co-host in 1991 and 1999.

That leaves Italy, to my mind the most attractive of the European bids, as it is a newcomer to the heavyweight ranks with a large number of registered players. However, World Rugby might want to go with a more established rugby playing nation for its 10th World Cup. Japan is already facing problems as it prepares to stage the 2019 event, with its new Olympic Stadium having now been removed from the venue list.

As for South Africa, it has the biggest and best rugby-purpose stadia in the world - with the possible exception of England, which has just hosted the event for the second time. It has the second largest number of registered players (also behind England), and it is the second most successful rugby playing nation after New Zealand.

By the time 2023 rolls around, an entire generation will have grown up since the last time the tournament was held in South Africa. This, even though the 1995 installment was one of the most successful and spectacular World Cups to date.

So if New Zealand, Austrlalia and England can all host it twice, and France can be involved as either host or co-host on three occasions, why on earth shouldn't it return to South Africa in 2023? Why does World Rugby appear to have lost faith in the republic, having overlooked it for both 2011 and 2019?

It's time to break the cycle. The World Cup can not continue to return to Western Europe on every second occasion. That is a myopic approach and anathema to the globalization cause.

But it does need to return to the Southern Hemisphere in 2023 for what will be the first time in 12 years. Moreover, it needs to return to the African continent, one of the hotbeds of international rugby development in recent decades.

This leads me to my final point in South Africa's favour. World Rugby officials have raised the possibility of an expanded tournament, and this is undoubtedly overdue. Again, with its vast array of rugby-purpose stadia, South Africa's credentials are unsurpassed as a potential host nation for a 24-team World Cup.

The last - and only - increase in teams was from 16 to 20 in 1999. This appears to have been successful, judging by the improved performances of the fringe teams in New Zealand and England.

In fact, no centuries have been recorded since 2003, while Japan's stunning victory over the Springboks this year suggests the days of foregone conclusions is World Cup rugby may be drawing to a close.

That said, a lot of work needs to be done in the interim if the additional teams are going to be genuinely competitive. One of the biggest obstacles to the game's global development is the stratification of its international competitions.

Not only are the elite championships closed-shop, but there is little interaction between the top teams and the emerging nations in between World Cups. How on earth are the up-and-comers supposed to be competitive in the big exam if they have been denied the lessons to prepare in between?

New Zealand and Australia should be playing annual tests with the Pacific Islands and Japan, as should the Six Nations with their Eastern European neighbours. South Africa ought to engage Namibia in a 'Bledisloe Cup'-style annual trophy match, and Hong Kong and Korea should be playing in the Pacific Challenge tournament, alongside the Pacific Islands B teams and Argentina's 'Pampas,' with a possible view to future inclusion in the Pacific Nations Championship.

In addition to this, would it not be a fairly straightforward exercise for Six Nations teams to stop in for tests against Namibia and Uruguay enroute to South Africa and Argentina, respectively - as well as the Pacific Islands while touring New Zealand or Australia?

By the same token, how about the Southern Hemisphere teams playing Georgia, Romania or Russia on their Autumn tours to Europe? Argentina might even take on Spain or Portugal.

If rugby is to more forward, it needs to expand its World Cup, and this can only be successful with a more integrated international rugby calendar.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 17 Apr 2016, 3:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No switching, if those are your goals theres a fair few places to take it,France would be the best choice for this 1.

Or get into the USA as soon as possible and stay there.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 18 Apr 2016, 5:39 pm

It's been a while since I've been to this one.  How is it going?  Has a destination been chosen that will suit all moods. opinion, pockets and senses of adventure?????


Right!  Blackpool it is then..... Wink  I can take in a summer season show by whatshisname that once had a show on the BEEB back in the...oh what decade was it now??????

Spectacular!!!

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Post by Sin é Mon 18 Apr 2016, 6:23 pm

Chris Evans & Matt LeBlanc filming in Kerry on the Wild Atlantic Way for Top Gear this weekend. Seem to enjoy it.

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/already-missing-the-magic-chris-evans-cant-stop-raving-about-filming-top-gear-in-kerry-34636928.html
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Post by beshocked Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:06 am

Rowanbi wrote:I see, so now the goal-posts have switched again. When we're discussing small nation tournaments, money is not the defining factor, but when we're discussing repetitive World Cups in France/UK, suddenly it is.

Of course, repetitive tournaments in those two countries would eventually become tiresome, especially as it would further stifle the game's international development, and rugby union's showpiece event would become as pitiful as its rugby league counterpart; which is precisely why World Rugby rotates it.

Rowanbi I agree hence why I want a team that has never hosted a RWC game to have a rugby world cup - Italy.

I'll be honest I'd much rather go to Italy than Ireland or SA though admittedly I haven't been to SA.

Irish people are friendly, didn't have a problem when watching the rugby. Been to Connacht,Leinster and Munster. It's okay but I know I personally would much prefer a RWC in Italy.


Just curious - which countries do you think will vote a certain way?

I know England voted for Japan for the 2011 RWC vote and I expect 2019 RWC. Who do you think they'll vote for?

We know who Wales voted for in 2007 and 2015 of course!

What about the others?

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 19 Apr 2016, 12:55 pm

Just curious - which countries do you think will vote a certain way?

That's the million dollar question, of course. It doesn't really matter about what's right and fair. In the end it'll come down to the wheeling and dealing behind the scenes of the unions which hold the most sway on the board. Normally the Home Unions stick together, unsurprisingly, and if they're not competing against France, you'd expect France to join them, as this block of nations have tended to share the event around among themselves. However, with three European teams among the four bidders on this occasion, including France and Ireland, that vote will obviously be split. Probably they'll make a new deal is the time draws closer and the favourite becomes clearer. I believe this occurred before the 2007 announcement and France & England went head-to-head. So if Ireland emerges as the favourite among the European teams, expect France to drop out and throw their full weight behind the IRFU - in exchange for the IRFU's guaranteed support next time they run (likely 2031, if Ireland are successful). As for the SANZAR nations, I think they'll vote as a block for South Africa, with reciprocation assured next time either Australia or NZ decides to throw their hat in the ring.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 12:58 pm

I was under the impression that World Rugby makes the decision, is this not the case?

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:02 pm

I was under the impression that World Rugby makes the decision, is this not the case?

I was under the impression World Rugby was an organization whose core committee members comprise the Home Unions, France and the SANZAR nations, is this not the case?

In other words, if the Europeans do decide to unite as the decision draws closer, I think one of them - most probably Ireland, unfortunately - will get it (and games will be shared around, regardless what they say beforehand). If they don't unite, South Africa will almost certainly get it. & I suspect South Africa will also pick up the lion's share of support from the non-core committee members.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:04 pm

I'm not sure of the make up of that committee who is it? Are the heads of all the unions on it?

Depends what they're looking for as key aspects of bids, not sure what that'll be.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:07 pm

Rowanbi wrote:I was under the impression that World Rugby makes the decision, is this not the case?

I was under the impression World Rugby was an organization whose core committee members comprise the Home Unions, France and the SANZAR nations, is this not the case?

In other words, if the Europeans do decide to unite as the decision draws closer, I think one of them - most probably Ireland, unfortunately - will get it (and games will be shared around, regardless what they say beforehand). If they don't unite, South Africa will almost certainly get it. & I suspect South Africa will also pick up the lion's share of support from the non-core committee members.

Probably benefits home unions to have it in Europe. More suited to conditions, more money from sponsorship as viewers will be higher at prime time match starts and they get more support.
SANZAR do tend to vote with each other but AUS for instance voted for Japan in 2011 so its not iron clad.

its voted by world rugby council members. from wiki

The Council is composed of 28 members, representing eight unions (countries) with two votes each, four unions with one vote each, and six regional associations with one vote each. Council representation and voting is composed as follows:[24]
(16) The eight "foundation unions" have two votes each: Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and France. These 16 members comprise the majority of the 28-person Council. (A 2008 report criticized the imbalance in voting structure, which allows the foundation unions to control the Council and gives emerging nations little influence.[25])
(4) Four unions have one vote each: Argentina, Canada, Italy and Japan.
(6) The six regional associations representing Europe, North America and the Caribbean, South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania each have one vote.
(2) The Chairman and Vice Chairman each have one vote. (These two individuals generally come from two of the eight foundation unions; as of June 2015, these positions are respectively held by Bernard Lapasset of France and Oregan Hoskins of South Africa.)

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:07 pm

Here we go:

'The Council is composed of 28 members, representing eight unions (countries) with two votes each, four unions with one vote each, and six regional associations with one vote each. Council representation and voting is composed as follows:[24]
(16) The eight "foundation unions" have two votes each: Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and France. These 16 members comprise the majority of the 28-person Council. (A 2008 report criticized the imbalance in voting structure, which allows the foundation unions to control the Council and gives emerging nations little influence.[25])
(4) Four unions have one vote each: Argentina, Canada, Italy and Japan.
(6) The six regional associations representing Europe, North America and the Caribbean, South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania each have one vote.
(2) The Chairman and Vice Chairman each have one vote. (These two individuals generally come from two of the eight foundation unions; as of June 2015, these positions are respectively held by Bernard Lapasset of France and Oregan Hoskins of South Africa.)

(In total, European countries have 12 permanent votes and 13 in all; Oceanian countries have 5 votes; African countries have 3 permanent votes and 4 in all; and Asian, South American, and North American countries have 2 votes.)'

I have no idea if your assertion that the Home Countries (which appears to be extending towards Europe?) vote together is true or not.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:08 pm

Ta Fa. Just found that on Wiki!

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Post by fa0019 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 1:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ta Fa. Just found that on Wiki!

same source, 30 seconds quicker by the looks of it.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 19 Apr 2016, 3:16 pm

Rowanbi wrote: if the Europeans do decide to unite as the decision draws closer, I think one of them - most probably Ireland, unfortunately - will get it.

It'd just be about our turn too! Why repeatedly so 'unfortunate' in your eyes, Rowanbi? Have you ever been to Ireland?

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Post by fa0019 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 3:36 pm

perhaps its to suggest that given European nations have 13 of the 28 votes. If they voted as a block they'd be almost always get the pick of their choice.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 3:38 pm

And if the rest voted together they'd always have theirs. Do they tend to vote together? Is this a bad thing?

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Post by SecretFly Tue 19 Apr 2016, 3:52 pm

fa0019 wrote:perhaps its to suggest that given European nations have 13 of the 28 votes. If they voted as a block they'd be almost always get the pick of their choice.

It's such a complex thing though...................... choice. I guess most officials, even if they are officials, still can't help having the instincts of man. Do players, coaches and fans Always want to play right at 'home' (if we class Europe as a certain kind of Home - I don't Wink ) in a World Cup? Sometimes - quite possibly a lot of times - the lure instead can be to have an adventure, to chase after the exotic, to feel like you've been on a true World Cup expedition with the rich memories of exotic locations to prove it.

Business is business - but it's never as simple as saying if 'Europe' could have all World Cups held in Europe, they'd vote for it every time. I don't think they would. 'Home' advantage is one thing but players, fans, coaches and organisations are more than prepared to risk things to have life experiences that matter.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 19 Apr 2016, 4:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:perhaps its to suggest that given European nations have 13 of the 28 votes. If they voted as a block they'd be almost always get the pick of their choice.

It's such a complex thing though...................... choice.  I guess most officials, even if they are officials, still can't help having the instincts of man.  Do players, coaches and fans Always want to play right at 'home' (if we class Europe as a certain kind of Home - I don't Wink ) in a World Cup?  Sometimes - quite possibly a lot of times - the lure instead can be to have an adventure, to chase after the exotic, to feel like you've been on a true World Cup expedition with the rich memories of exotic locations to prove it.  

Business is business - but it's never as simple as saying if 'Europe' could have all World Cups held in Europe, they'd vote for it every time.  I don't think they would.  'Home' advantage is one thing but players, fans, coaches and organisations are more than prepared to risk things to have life experiences that matter.  

I think things such as promising of tours to NZ, SA etc help others for instance. General horse trading. Wales' forever outside test window AI match is another one which gives them options.

Countries I think will more often than not go with what's best for them I reckon. Which will a) maximise revenue and b) maximise their own chances of success.

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Post by Sin é Tue 19 Apr 2016, 6:41 pm

New voting structure from next AGM (May 2016)

Member union voting rights on Council will operate as follows, with unions receiving one vote for each criteria that is met up to a maximum of three votes:

One vote and one representative: to member unions who have qualified for two consecutive Rugby World Cups within last eight-year assessment period

One vote and one representative: to unions who have qualified for two consecutive Rugby World Cups within last eight-year assessment period and who participate in the Six Nations or The Rugby Championship

One vote: to unions who have qualified for two consecutive Rugby World Cups within last eight-year assessment period and:

have an annual audited average investment in rugby of £20 million over the last four years

have bid to host major World Rugby events over last eight years or who are bidding for a World Rugby event in next four years

have a sustainable women's programme with participation in the Women's Rugby World Cup or qualifiers in the past eight years

have men's and women's sevens programmes – reflected by a minimum participation in regional competitions and or the World Rugby Sevens Series (men's and women's)
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Post by Sin é Tue 19 Apr 2016, 6:59 pm

Rowanbi wrote:I was under the impression that World Rugby makes the decision, is this not the case?

I was under the impression World Rugby was an organization whose core committee members comprise the Home Unions, France and the SANZAR nations, is this not the case?

In other words, if the Europeans do decide to unite as the decision draws closer, I think one of them - most probably Ireland, unfortunately - will get it (and games will be shared around, regardless what they say beforehand). If they don't unite, South Africa will almost certainly get it. & I suspect South Africa will also pick up the lion's share of support from the non-core committee members.

The chairman of the Ireland bid said a while back that Ireland had already secured 43% of the required vote.

Ireland will get the backing from: England, Scotland, Wales, NZ, Georgia, Romania, USA, Canada (these are all teams that Ireland play games against!) and you will see the ABs and Ireland playing in the US this year.
France will support SA.
I'd imagine Argentina will support Italy or SA. Australia will probably support SA as well.

Now, can anyone add those votes up!
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Post by SecretFly Tue 19 Apr 2016, 7:04 pm

forget those votes............................ I now want the lotto numbers for Saturday sin.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:29 pm

It'd just be about our turn too! Why repeatedly so 'unfortunate' in your eyes, Rowanbi? Have you ever been to Ireland?

A World Cup that revolves around France & the Home Unions, simply because they hold so much collective sway on the World Rugby council, is anathema to the globalization process, while small nation tournaments ought to have been left behind with the amateur era.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:35 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:I was under the impression that World Rugby makes the decision, is this not the case?

I was under the impression World Rugby was an organization whose core committee members comprise the Home Unions, France and the SANZAR nations, is this not the case?

In other words, if the Europeans do decide to unite as the decision draws closer, I think one of them - most probably Ireland, unfortunately - will get it (and games will be shared around, regardless what they say beforehand). If they don't unite, South Africa will almost certainly get it. & I suspect South Africa will also pick up the lion's share of support from the non-core committee members.

The chairman of the Ireland bid said a while back that Ireland had already secured 43% of the required vote.

Ireland will get the backing from: England, Scotland, Wales, NZ, Georgia, Romania, USA, Canada (these are all teams that Ireland play games against!) and you will see the ABs and Ireland playing in the US this year.
France will support SA.
I'd imagine Argentina will support Italy or SA. Australia will probably support SA as well.

Now, can anyone add those votes up!

Nope - a year ago, he said he felt that they're above 40% - that is the quota to be reached in first round voting. But he also recognised that votes will change from 27 to 35/40 by the time this comes round for decision by WR, so that 40% figure will drop.

England will not back Ireland - they have an existing agreement with SA. Neither will Wales - no deal will be done on Millennium. NZ, Aus, USA, Canada, Scotland are possible backers of Ireland. A lot more politicking to be done.
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Post by Sin é Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:forget those votes............................ I now want the lotto numbers for Saturday sin.

Throw Samoa in there: Whistle

Dick Spring wrote:
“We have very strong Irish connections in Samoa. Some pirates who fell off ships there about 200 years ago,” Spring joked.

“In fact I met their minister for agriculture there many years ago on the way back from Australia. He had very strong Irish connections.

“Anywhere there’s a vote to be got, we will do our research – our work.”
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Post by Sin é Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:43 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:I was under the impression that World Rugby makes the decision, is this not the case?

I was under the impression World Rugby was an organization whose core committee members comprise the Home Unions, France and the SANZAR nations, is this not the case?

In other words, if the Europeans do decide to unite as the decision draws closer, I think one of them - most probably Ireland, unfortunately - will get it (and games will be shared around, regardless what they say beforehand). If they don't unite, South Africa will almost certainly get it. & I suspect South Africa will also pick up the lion's share of support from the non-core committee members.

The chairman of the Ireland bid said a while back that Ireland had already secured 43% of the required vote.

Ireland will get the backing from: England, Scotland, Wales, NZ, Georgia, Romania, USA, Canada (these are all teams that Ireland play games against!) and you will see the ABs and Ireland playing in the US this year.
France will support SA.
I'd imagine Argentina will support Italy or SA. Australia will probably support SA as well.

Now, can anyone add those votes up!

Nope - a year ago, he said he felt that they're above 40% - that is the quota to be reached in first round voting.    But he also recognised that votes will change from 27 to 35/40 by the time this comes round for decision by WR, so that 40% figure will drop.

England will not back Ireland - they have an existing agreement with SA.   Neither will Wales - no deal will be done on Millennium.   NZ, Aus, USA, Canada, Scotland are possible backers of Ireland.  A lot more politicking to be done.  

Apologies, I was out by 3%. Erm

Here is the article: http://www.the42.ie/ireland-confident-rugby-world-cup-bid-votes-2111672-May2015/
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Post by Rowanbi Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:43 pm

England will not back Ireland - they have an existing agreement with SA. Neither will Wales - no deal will be done on Millennium. NZ, Aus, USA, Canada, Scotland are possible backers of Ireland. A lot more politicking to be done.




Intriguing! What are all these alliances based on, pray tell?
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Post by Sin é Tue 19 Apr 2016, 10:54 pm

Rowanbi wrote:England will not back Ireland - they have an existing agreement with SA. Neither will Wales - no deal will be done on Millennium. NZ, Aus, USA, Canada, Scotland are possible backers of Ireland. A lot more politicking to be done.




Intriguing! What are all these alliances based on, pray tell?

England will not back SA after the way Oregan Hoskins opposed Bill Beaumont for vice-chairmanship of world rugby the last time around. Bill Beaumont is set to become chair of World Rugby next month.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/news/6779.php

As for Wales - why would they support SA - do you think SA will give them a few games to host?


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Post by SecretFly Tue 19 Apr 2016, 11:28 pm

Rowanbi wrote:It'd just be about our turn too! Why repeatedly so 'unfortunate' in your eyes, Rowanbi? Have you ever been to Ireland?

A World Cup that revolves around France & the Home Unions, simply because they hold so much collective sway on the World Rugby council, is anathema to the globalization process, while small nation tournaments ought to have been left behind with the amateur era.

Nah. I still always feel your tone suggests England getting it one more time would be less problematic for you than Ireland getting it..... 'Home' Nations or not.... of which might I add, I don't belong, even though Ireland is my team Wink
It's a complicated world, ain't it Wink

'Small Nation tournaments ought to be left behind with the amateur era' - hmmmm, well there you go. It's all about such attitudes. The new Imperialism of thought that is sweeping the world again - certainly in rugby. People aren't afraid to say it anymore. "You just too small and insignificant, mate".

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 7:40 am

I still always feel your tone suggests England getting it one more time would be less problematic for you than Ireland

Based on nothing but your own confused imagination... Rolling Eyes
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 8:00 am

Small nations? Does it matter one jot if they are capable of hosting. No, it doesn't.

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 8:56 am

Rowanbi wrote:It'd just be about our turn too! Why repeatedly so 'unfortunate' in your eyes, Rowanbi? Have you ever been to Ireland?

A World Cup that revolves around France & the Home Unions, simply because they hold so much collective sway on the World Rugby council, is anathema to the globalization process, while small nation tournaments ought to have been left behind with the amateur era.

Disagree. I think the world cup has revolved around the home unions including Ireland, as well as France,Australia,South Africa and NZ. It's an old boys club.

South Africa wouldn't be the game moving on either. Perhaps SA feel like it's their turn but time for a new host - Italy.

I would want England to support Italy.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:37 am

Personal preference for upcoming WCs -

Japan - Already awarded, I am sure it will be amazing but....high cost of getting there means plenty of Europeans wont make the journey.

Other contenders -
Italy - Great 'New' WC hosts. Open to big European market, plenty of stadiums that would need minor upgrading.
Ireland - Similar to Italy, New WC hosts, open to large market, would need access to GAA stadiums with greater capacity.
USA/Canada combined - New market, New hosts, massive draw (if they publicise correctly), relatively easy access from both hemispheres.
Argentina - A top team, new hosts, great meat....Smile
South Africa - Established market, infrastructure, but its not expanding the game, great meat.....Smile

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:47 am

Propdavid london

Ireland wouldn't be new hosts.... Doh picard

Argentina or USA/Canada would be good too but they aren't in contention.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:53 am

Ooops - 1991 of course. I was kind of thinking sole hosts.
I would like to see an independent Irish bid.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:57 am

Italy is the only new host nation candidate but it's still a relatively minor sport there and now questions are even being asked about its future in the 6 Nations (justifiably or not).

It would be prudent to give them another 4 years and send it to a traditional rugby playing nation in 2023, especially if expansion is on the cards.

This also entails a return of the tournament to the Southern Hemisphere for the first time in 12 years, while Italy in 2027 will mean Europe also will have been required to wait that long (for once). Seems pretty fair and logical to me. Cool
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:00 am

You've said this earlier in the thread, why would the on field performance matter in the ability to host a WC Rowanbi? Why would the size of a nation matter, if the bid is good enough? Why should the WC be rotated and not (neccessarily) go to the best bid?

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:04 am

propdavid_london fair enough.


Rowanbi Italy have to be helped.

Why another traditional rugby playing nation?

Surely it should be about growing the sport now. Becoming more international.

Personally I think

2023 - Italy
2027 - USA or Argentina
2031 - SA

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:10 am

You've said this earlier in the thread, why would the on field performance matter in the ability to host a WC Rowanbi? Why would the size of a nation matter, if the bid is good enough? Why should the WC be rotated and not (neccessarily) go to the best bid?

Onfield performance might reflect to some degree the popularity of the sport, don't you think? In Italy's case, we can't really point to the smaller stature excuse either, as may well apply to other countries, including the 2019 hosts.

The size of the nation might reflect to some extent a nation's capacity to fill a large number of stadiums, don't you think? Also, the fans would be climbing all over the top of one another on a little island like Ireland, for example.

The tournament is rotated in accordance with World Rugby's mandate to foster the international growth of the game. FIFA does the same, in case you hadn't noticed. Staging it in the same location repeatedly is anathema to the globalization process, don't you think?

Rowanbi Italy have to be helped.

Why another traditional rugby playing nation?


Because Japan followed by Italy might be a bit risky. We know the former have already had issues with their Olympic stadium, and World Rugby was clearly not happy about this, and even contacted the SARFU about the possibility of stepping in, apparently (though no formal discussions were held).

Italy are in the 6 Nations. They, along with Argentina and Japan, are clearly the most being-helped nations in international rugby right now (not that they haven't earned it).

2023 South Africa
2027 Italy
2031 Argentina (if they bid)
Cool
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Post by fa0019 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:11 am

I can't see how having a world cup in Italy would open the game up to the European market. Italy yes, the rest; they'll not even know its on.  I have a few reservations about the game in Italy. I think the pressure coming from Georgia will prove too great to stop them forcing a 6N playoff if they continue to show they are equal/superior to the Italians.
16 years on and they haven't even attempted to move the game on beyond its northeastern heartland and their professional setup is full of foreigners, many of those who qualify non residency do so out of ancestry from places like AUS, NZ, Argentina... especially in the key positions.  Its difficult but you feel they're being kept afloat and not really developing a solid foundation.

Are they ready to host a RWC, I'm not so sure, even by 2023 I can't see them moving beyond an annual scrap for the wooden spoon, if anything they've gone backwards in the last 5 years.

I think Ireland deserves it more than Italy from a European perspective.

For me Europe is getting too many world cups per their market share however. SA has about 1/4 of fans, population etc amongst the top 10 sides but have only got 1 world cup host. ANZAC have had 3 for a lesser base, Europe 4 with about double the base. Its not been favourable to them and whilst I would suggest I'm not biased I know I am a little... still for their market share they have not got what others have done. I have seen other world cups though so I'm not too bother about... oh this is my only chance to see RWC rugby for instance lark... I saw a number of RWC15 matches for instance.

I also think that 2 experimental world cups in a row is probably unlikely. Better bet I think to go to a cash cow in 2023 after Japan.

European fans are getting world cups every 8 years... in SA its been 21 thus far and by 2023 it would be 28 years... for a nation with 1/4 of the tier 1 base I think that is a rough return, even further i.e. 32, 36 years and its simply talks of favouritism and scratching each others back.
Its still a growing game in the country so thoughts that it won't win any new fans I think is a little obtuse... I think the country is more likely than any other to win new fans into the sport as you can tell it will be seen as a national priority... not something you are seeing in Japan, not something you would see in Italy IMO. Ireland probably would but its such a small market you're limiting yourself by quite a margin.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:18 am

Rowanbi wrote:You've said this earlier in the thread, why would the on field performance matter in the ability to host a WC Rowanbi? Why would the size of a nation matter, if the bid is good enough? Why should the WC be rotated and not (neccessarily) go to the best bid?

Onfield performance might reflect to some degree the popularity of the sport, don't you think? In Italy's case, we can't really point to the smaller stature excuse either, as may well apply to other countries, including the 2019 hosts.

The size of the nation might reflect to some extent a nation's capacity to fill a large number of stadiums, don't you think? Also, the fans would be climbing all over the top of one another on a little island like Ireland, for example.

The tournament is rotated in accordance with World Rugby's mandate to foster the international growth of the game. FIFA does the same, in case you hadn't noticed. Staging it in the same location repeatedly is anathema to the globalization process, don't you think?

Rowanbi Italy have to be helped.

Why another traditional rugby playing nation?


Because Japan followed by Italy might be a bit risky. We know the former have already had issues with their Olympic stadium, and World Rugby was clearly not happy about this, and even contacted the SARFU about the possibility of stepping in, apparently (though no formal discussions were held).

Italy are in the 6 Nations. They, along with Argentina and Japan, are clearly the most being-helped nations in international rugby right now (not that they haven't earned it).

2023 South Africa
2027 Italy
2031 Argentina (if they bid)
Cool

Onfield performance shouldn't come into at all, otherwise it comes into odds with spreading the game. Also looking at Englands flat performance for the majority of the last decade along with the huge success of the world cup doesn't back that up at all. Spreading the game would mean Italy, then Ireland, then SA then France in order of preferences (funnily enough matches my preferred options).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:20 am

Also fans climbing over each other? Bizarre, Ireland isn't some under developed country unused to tourists you know, but you seem to think there's going to be no one there anyway as they haven't got a great team.

On a side note what's your username from?

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:31 am

You are slightly obsessed with me, don't you think? Fa0019 posted very similar views to mine about the 2023 RWC but I don't see you throwing a lot of pointless questions his way. What does 7&1/2 mean (not that I actually care)?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:40 am

It's the topic for discussion Rowanbi. Not pointless questions at all, putting them to you as I don't think your argument makes sense. Given you try to ignore and evade i guess you think similar deep down.

No 7&1/2 came about as I was struggling to think of a user name at the time and for England there were questions at the time of flankers and no 8 swapping around and whether there should be specialists there or guys who cover a bit of all. Similar questions still around now for England to an extent. And Rowanbi?

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:07 am

Rowanbi to be honest I put no 7 & 1/2 on ignore because I get the impression he believes the earth is flat when it's round.

Even though strangely enough I agree with him on some points.

Fair point about it being risky but the least financially successful RWC in the last few years has been the traditional hot spot of NZ.

I think choosing NZ was more based on sentimental value than on growing the game or being financially viable.

I wouldn't have voted for NZ.

I think SA would host a financially successful RWC but it shouldn't just be about money.

fa0019 South Africa aren't a new host though.

RWC 2015 wasn't about growing the game, it was ££, pure and simple. Is that what we want in the national game?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:11 am

Now now beshocked, stop acting childishly.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:24 am

Isnt the standard format to alternate between financial bankers and then with growing the game.
Word Rugby or Rugby World Cup organisers are bankrolled by the monies they make from the tournament every 4yrs. Its not in their interests to not have a banker in there somewhere to top up the coffers. Japan probably fits the bill of growing the game and topping up the coffers. Following on from England 'while not a great home performance' I would imagine grossed the biggest £ of any previous WC's.

So, 2 back to back high grossing WC's should allow enough money in the pot for the next couple of WC's to go to lower grossing nations (established and/or non-established rugby playing nations).

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:25 am

To be fair no 7 & 1/2 you do make some good points occasionally but you and I are too fundamentally different for us to have conversation without us going around in circles. I am stubborn myself but even I will relent if the evidence proves that I am not correct. I know I can act a bit childish. I don't claim to be perfect, a flawed human being like us all. Some things are debatable, some are not.


propdavid london if you were picking 2023,2027 and 2031 who would you pick?

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:35 am

I haven't seen who the bidding nations are -
But, I would love to see something like

2019 - Japan (££££)

2023 - Ireland (£) or Italy (££)
2027 - USA/Canada (££)-(££££)- reason being that Rugby is growing in interest. 7's in Olympics raises profile of general sport in States. If Americans embrace rugby truly then it could be a massive banker for the organisers RISK though.
2031 - SA or Argentina (£)

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:02 pm

What do you mean by the £ sign?

Is that meant to mean risk or price for fans?

Quite clearly Japan will be the most expensive for fans to go to.


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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:09 pm

I was thinking on the lines that the £ would relate to the money the 'WC body' would make from the tournament.
Following on from previous post that the WC hosts may be partially selected on how much money they can bring in.

As you say, the Japanese WC will be expensive for tickets/cost of living etc. But as a result there may be lower numbers attending (from abroad). But TV rights and other sources of revenue should see the organisers make a tidy sum.




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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:45 pm

Fair enough.

I don't think you'll please too many Irish or SA fans with your appraisal to be honest we don't really know yet!

England's failure in the RWC didn't matter so much because the amount of expat support in London meant that most games were going to be full anyway. Was always going to be demand for tickets. London is very much a global city. Hard to say the same of Tokyo IMO.

Sin E talked about the Irish filling up stadiums at the 2015 RWC, well there's a lot of Irish/of Irish descent in London, Ireland isn't exactly far from England either.

Italy,South Africa and Ireland are all that I think could be financially successful which I personally haven't focussed on the financial figures. None of them would be able to match France or England in my opinion.


USA has a large immigrant population which could work in their favour too - e.g. getting those Americans who have an iota of Irish blood to support Ireland. Of course St Patrick's day is important, particularly in New York.

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