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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 30 Jan 2016, 9:36 am

First topic message reminder :



The Rugby World Cup should return to South Africa in 2023, and the tournament should be expanded to 24 teams.

The other three candidates are Ireland, France and Italy. Were any of these successful, that would mean a third straight World Cup in the Northern Hemisphere, even though it is the Southern Hemisphere which overwhelmingly dominates.

It would also entail a return to the Six Nations for the fifth time in just ten tournaments, which is a little ridiculous for a sport with over one hundred affiliated member nations and self-professed global pretentions.

Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border.

France, meanwhile, hosted the World Cup as recently as eight years ago, and was also a co-host in 1991 and 1999.

That leaves Italy, to my mind the most attractive of the European bids, as it is a newcomer to the heavyweight ranks with a large number of registered players. However, World Rugby might want to go with a more established rugby playing nation for its 10th World Cup. Japan is already facing problems as it prepares to stage the 2019 event, with its new Olympic Stadium having now been removed from the venue list.

As for South Africa, it has the biggest and best rugby-purpose stadia in the world - with the possible exception of England, which has just hosted the event for the second time. It has the second largest number of registered players (also behind England), and it is the second most successful rugby playing nation after New Zealand.

By the time 2023 rolls around, an entire generation will have grown up since the last time the tournament was held in South Africa. This, even though the 1995 installment was one of the most successful and spectacular World Cups to date.

So if New Zealand, Austrlalia and England can all host it twice, and France can be involved as either host or co-host on three occasions, why on earth shouldn't it return to South Africa in 2023? Why does World Rugby appear to have lost faith in the republic, having overlooked it for both 2011 and 2019?

It's time to break the cycle. The World Cup can not continue to return to Western Europe on every second occasion. That is a myopic approach and anathema to the globalization cause.

But it does need to return to the Southern Hemisphere in 2023 for what will be the first time in 12 years. Moreover, it needs to return to the African continent, one of the hotbeds of international rugby development in recent decades.

This leads me to my final point in South Africa's favour. World Rugby officials have raised the possibility of an expanded tournament, and this is undoubtedly overdue. Again, with its vast array of rugby-purpose stadia, South Africa's credentials are unsurpassed as a potential host nation for a 24-team World Cup.

The last - and only - increase in teams was from 16 to 20 in 1999. This appears to have been successful, judging by the improved performances of the fringe teams in New Zealand and England.

In fact, no centuries have been recorded since 2003, while Japan's stunning victory over the Springboks this year suggests the days of foregone conclusions is World Cup rugby may be drawing to a close.

That said, a lot of work needs to be done in the interim if the additional teams are going to be genuinely competitive. One of the biggest obstacles to the game's global development is the stratification of its international competitions.

Not only are the elite championships closed-shop, but there is little interaction between the top teams and the emerging nations in between World Cups. How on earth are the up-and-comers supposed to be competitive in the big exam if they have been denied the lessons to prepare in between?

New Zealand and Australia should be playing annual tests with the Pacific Islands and Japan, as should the Six Nations with their Eastern European neighbours. South Africa ought to engage Namibia in a 'Bledisloe Cup'-style annual trophy match, and Hong Kong and Korea should be playing in the Pacific Challenge tournament, alongside the Pacific Islands B teams and Argentina's 'Pampas,' with a possible view to future inclusion in the Pacific Nations Championship.

In addition to this, would it not be a fairly straightforward exercise for Six Nations teams to stop in for tests against Namibia and Uruguay enroute to South Africa and Argentina, respectively - as well as the Pacific Islands while touring New Zealand or Australia?

By the same token, how about the Southern Hemisphere teams playing Georgia, Romania or Russia on their Autumn tours to Europe? Argentina might even take on Spain or Portugal.

If rugby is to more forward, it needs to expand its World Cup, and this can only be successful with a more integrated international rugby calendar.
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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:52 pm

There is no offence meant by that.....was just thinking along the lines of economies, exchange rates etc.
I personally thought that the 2015 ticket prices were very high.....but they still managed to sell shed loads.

Lions tour 2009....pricing was quite aggressive I was told. Mid week fixtures and warm up games were playing in front of tiny crowds and half empty stadiums. The Barmy Army were representing but not a lot of local supporters.

USA would be great, as long as they do a better job than London Irish's recent attempt.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:55 pm

It's funny that all the auld hosts of the past are now debating who should be New hosts too!  

So even now...it's the olde worlde of rugby dictating, or certainly trying to heavy-step it, what new boys should get it.  Oh that's ever so expansionist..... Cool   

I'm not willing to hear any more from the olde boy network.  From here on in I'm only going to listen to Japanese, Canadian, Italian and Mozambique and Timbuktuian posters.  
Let them tell me for themselves why they should get it.  After all, I'm here personally saying why we should get it. Wink  If people can't be bothered to even turn up and fight their case then I'm not going to be listening to their legal councels from England and SA etc .............. Whistle

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:14 pm

I heard somewhere that Madagascar also has a fully pro league at home -
http://en.espn.co.uk/2015-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/211251.html

Sounds like a great new location to host a WC. Maybe a combined African bid with matches hosted in SA, Namibia and Madagascar.

Sorry SecretFly i'm not from Madagascar (please ignore my idea).

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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:40 pm

Beshocked, the way it works is that World Rugby set a fee for hosting the games with requirements for stadia size, corporate & media facilities etc. The hosting country keeps the gate money to cover that fee.

Where World Rugby really make their money is in tv & sponsorship. Any European country & SA are in the best time zone to get the most out of tv coverage.

The most important thing for World Rugby is the timezone the hosting country is in.

The RFU made a packet on the last world cup along with World Rugby. They won't make so much from Japan (or NZ/Aus) because of the timezone. You won't attract sponsors like Heineken or Coca Cola if games are on tv at 6am in the morning when people will probably watch the games in bed.

With regard to Irish in America - its often said that Ireland is closer to Bostan than Berlin!

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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:42 pm

propdavid_london wrote:There is no offence meant by that.....was just thinking along the lines of economies, exchange rates etc.  
I personally thought that the 2015 ticket prices were very high.....but they still managed to sell shed loads.  

Lions tour 2009....pricing was quite aggressive I was told.  Mid week fixtures and warm up games were playing in front of tiny crowds and half empty stadiums.  The Barmy Army were representing but not a lot of local supporters.  

USA would be great, as long as they do a better job than London Irish's recent attempt.

SA will be hosting a Lions Tour in 2021. You won't get people from UK & Ireland travelling to SA twice. Having both so close together will affect both travelling support.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:43 pm

propdavid_london wrote:There is no offence meant by that.....was just thinking along the lines of economies, exchange rates etc.  
I personally thought that the 2015 ticket prices were very high.....but they still managed to sell shed loads.  

Lions tour 2009....pricing was quite aggressive I was told.  Mid week fixtures and warm up games were playing in front of tiny crowds and half empty stadiums.  The Barmy Army were representing but not a lot of local supporters.  

USA would be great, as long as they do a better job than London Irish's recent attempt.

The reason why people may have stayed away is because the midweek games were mickey mouse fixtures. They were the lions but in truth that doesn't really impress people in SA that much to get them out... no one really says, "once in a lifetime". They say "want to see WP??? whose playing, ah no bokke, just the academy kids.... no thanks".

The teams they played were shell sides, C teams really.

Even so

12,000 vs. "Royal XV". I mean who the hell are they. It was an invitational in rustenberg.
24,000 vs. the FS. Quite Good.
22,000 vs. the sharks. Below average.
34,000 vs WP. Decent (esp. given the weather that day).
36,000 vs the Kings. Very good.
40,000 vs Emerging boks in Cape Town. Good.

Doesn't take away that SA is the home of the best supported club game in world rugby and it has been dominant for decades. The above is a good return for C sides and wednesday matches which in SA are not popular.

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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:53 pm

Sin é wrote:Beshocked, the way it works is that World Rugby set a fee for hosting the games with requirements for stadia size, corporate & media facilities etc. The hosting country keeps the gate money to cover that fee.

Where World Rugby really make their money is in tv & sponsorship. Any European country & SA are in the best time zone to get the most out of tv coverage.

The most important thing for World Rugby is the timezone the hosting country is in.

The RFU made a packet on the last world cup along with World Rugby. They won't make so much from Japan (or NZ/Aus) because of the timezone. You won't attract sponsors like Heineken or Coca Cola if games are on tv at 6am in the morning when people will probably watch the games in bed.

With regard to Irish in America - its often said that Ireland is closer to Bostan than Berlin!


Sin e fair enough. Thank you for the explanation, that's not sarcastic by the way.

Well if that's the case then Italy,SA,France and Ireland are all in that favourable time zone so that's not really a point of differentiation.

Will be interesting to see how the voting goes.


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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:25 pm

Fair point about it being risky but the least financially successful RWC in the last few years has been the traditional hot spot of NZ.

I think choosing NZ was more based on sentimental value than on growing the game or being financially viable.

I wouldn't have voted for NZ.

I think SA would host a financially successful RWC but it shouldn't just be about money.


Well, New Zealand's a tiny country population-wise and we all knew there would be a massive drop in terms of attendances and revenue. But, yes, it was a homage of sorts to the world's most successful playing nation. They had to get it one more time before it really was too late. In addition to that, I think it reflected to some degree the disproportionate amount of influence a few of the foundation members have on the committee - New Zealand in particular.

Rowanbi to be honest I put no 7 & 1/2 on ignore because I get the impression he believes the earth is flat when it's round.

I'm loathed to do that because sometimes it makes things confusing if you haven't read everything that's been posted. But it's headed that way with him/her and a couple of others. Thanks for the suggestion thumbsup


Last edited by Rowanbi on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:27 pm

I'm a him. You may as well put me on ignore as you can't answer anything put to you so pretty hard to discuss anything.

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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:41 pm

beshocked wrote:
Sin é wrote:Beshocked, the way it works is that World Rugby set a fee for hosting the games with requirements for stadia size, corporate & media facilities etc. The hosting country keeps the gate money to cover that fee.

Where World Rugby really make their money is in tv & sponsorship. Any European country & SA are in the best time zone to get the most out of tv coverage.

The most important thing for World Rugby is the timezone the hosting country is in.

The RFU made a packet on the last world cup along with World Rugby. They won't make so much from Japan (or NZ/Aus) because of the timezone. You won't attract sponsors like Heineken or Coca Cola if games are on tv at 6am in the morning when people will probably watch the games in bed.

With regard to Irish in America - its often said that Ireland is closer to Bostan than Berlin!




Sin e fair enough. Thank you for the explanation, that's not sarcastic by the way.

Well if that's the case then Italy,SA,France and Ireland are all in that favourable time zone so that's not really a point of differentiation.

Will be interesting to see how the voting goes.


France (Paris) are bidding for the 2024 Olympics which will cost a lot to tender for and put on - they maybe a bit distracted by that being very close to a world cup. It will be interesting to see how that goes having had a Fifa world cup there fairly recently.
Similarly for South Africa with Lions Tour going there.
Ireland maybe regarded as too small.
Italy - not sure they have the capability or they would get the support needed from their Government.
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Post by SecretFly Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:54 pm

I scent Chunky......!

weird feeling......................

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:02 pm


It will be interesting to see how that goes having had a Fifa world cup there fairly recently.
Similarly for South Africa with Lions Tour going there.


How is this relevant?
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Post by beshocked Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:20 pm

Rowanbi yes New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I agree it was a sentimental choice but surely there should be more to hosting a RWC than just that.

Sin e Italy don't have the capability but Ireland do? Laugh  Italy have plenty of football stadiums they could use.

I think any of the three nations can make as much as NZ if not more.

To be honest any of these choices I think are better than what the football world cups are going to dish out.... OK

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:22 pm

New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown
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Post by propdavid_london Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:50 pm

Is the Lions touring SA after NZ? Is there an agreed rota of the Tri-Nations?
I don't think it should be expected.......I wouldn't mind seeing a Lions tour of Argentina!

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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:53 pm

beshocked wrote:Rowanbi yes New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I agree it was a sentimental choice but surely there should be more to hosting a RWC than just that.

Sin e Italy don't have the capability but Ireland do? Laugh  Italy have plenty of football stadiums they could use.

I think any of the three nations can make as much as NZ if not more.

To be honest any of these choices I think are better than what the football world cups are going to dish out.... OK

Ireland's bid is supported by 2 Governments and is led by a former ireland international and Tánaiste (deputy prime minister of ROI). I can't see the Italians getting enough Gov. support. The soccer stadiums will be in use at that time of the year in Italy so that might not be so handy. For instance, it would be difficult to hold a rugby world cup game in Rome on the same day that Roma were playing at home or say in Milan where with two big football teams there. Manchester United wouldn't allow the use of Old Trafford when England were hosting it. In Ireland, we would not have those kinds of problems to overcome because the GAA season is more or less over and they are involved with the bidding committee anyway and they have committed to supplying stadia.



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Post by SecretFly Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:54 pm

Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

Which means you don't need climbing gear, or parachuting lessons to move between venues...take a car instead?



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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:02 pm

Is the Lions touring SA after NZ?

Should be one in 2021 - two years before the 2023 World Cup, just as there was one to Australia in 2001, two years before the 2003 World Cup (in Australia). So I'm not really sure what the angle was there. Certainly it won't be an issue.
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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:04 pm

Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

At least 10% (6m) of the population of the UK has at least one Irish grandparent. My sister's husband works 4 days a week in London and lives in Dublin. You know Keith Wood, Brian O'Driscoll & Craig Doyle (BT Sport rugby presenter) all live in Ireland and commute to England to commentate on rugby. In the reverse scenario, Conor O'Shea (lives in London), Shane Horgan (London), Ronan O'Gara (Paris) and Jackman (Grenoble) all appear regularly as rugby pundits on Irish tv/radio despite living and working in other countries.

Ireland is not like New Zealand, stuck in the middle of an ocean many hours flying away from anywhere.

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.
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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:09 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Is the Lions touring SA after NZ?  Is there an agreed rota of the Tri-Nations?  
I don't think it should be expected.......I wouldn't mind seeing a Lions tour of Argentina!

Yes there is an agreed rota.

Under the current agreement, which expires after the tour of New Zealand in 2017, the 10-game series against Warren Gatland’s Lions squad is expected to generate at least £40million for the Australian Rugby Union, wiping out a £12.2million debt run up over the past two years.

The four Home Unions are expected to share a profit largely generated by sponsorship deals of £6million on top of £50,000 compensation for each player in the 37-man squad.

I can't see the other SH teams allowing Argentina to get in on the act.
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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:11 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

Which means you don't need climbing gear, or parachuting lessons to move between venues...take a car instead?



You might also need a boat to get from North to South island Whistle
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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:13 pm

2 Governments

One of which has also backed three previous World Cup hosts. Rather greedy, isn't it?

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.

But it's still just a little Ireland, and those people will be climbing all over the top of each other.

Meanwhile, South Africa has 55 million people and lots of African neighbors with lots more African people. No worries about packing the vast array of major stadiums there. And as I've pointed out previously, it's actually easier to get around SA than NZ, with distances between the five or six principal cities about the same but much bigger and better roadways (& no strait to cross).


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Post by fa0019 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:13 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

At least 10% (6m) of the population of the UK has at least one Irish grandparent. My sister's husband works 4 days a week in London and lives in Dublin. You know Keith Wood, Brian O'Driscoll & Craig Doyle (BT Sport rugby presenter) all live in Ireland and commute to England to commentate on rugby. In the reverse scenario, Conor O'Shea (lives in London), Shane Horgan (London), Ronan O'Gara (Paris) and Jackman (Grenoble) all appear regularly as rugby pundits on Irish tv/radio despite living and working in other countries.

Ireland is not like New Zealand, stuck in the middle of an ocean many hours flying away from anywhere.

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.

I once dated a girl who told me whilst she had never been to Ireland it was her spiritual home because her great nan was born there. I was in hysterics for hours.... we broke up.

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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 5:20 pm

Rowanbi wrote:2 Governments

One of which has also backed three previous World Cup hosts. Rather greedy, isn't it?

I doubt if the Northern Ireland Government backed any previous world cup hosts.

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.

But it's still just a little Ireland, and those people will be climbing all over the top of each other.

Population density Japan: 377 people per sq km
UK: 255
Italy: 200
France: 114
Ireland: 65
South Africa: 41
New Zealand: 16

Meanwhile, South Africa has 55 million people and lots of African neighbors with lots more African people. No worries about packing the vast array of major stadiums there. And as I've pointed out previously, it's actually easier to get around SA than NZ, with distances between the five or six principal cities about the same but much bigger and better roadways (& no strait to cross).

You should check stuff out before putting your foot in it. By the way, Ireland has 199 different nationalities living in Ireland.
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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 5:23 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

At least 10% (6m) of the population of the UK has at least one Irish grandparent. My sister's husband works 4 days a week in London and lives in Dublin. You know Keith Wood, Brian O'Driscoll & Craig Doyle (BT Sport rugby presenter) all live in Ireland and commute to England to commentate on rugby. In the reverse scenario, Conor O'Shea (lives in London), Shane Horgan (London), Ronan O'Gara (Paris) and Jackman (Grenoble) all appear regularly as rugby pundits on Irish tv/radio despite living and working in other countries.

Ireland is not like New Zealand, stuck in the middle of an ocean many hours flying away from anywhere.

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.

I once dated a girl who told me whilst she had never been to Ireland it was her spiritual home because her great nan was born there. I was in hysterics for hours.... we broke up.

Yes, its really amazing how people the world over are so proud of their Irish identity. 40m Americans claim Irish heritage.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 20 Apr 2016, 5:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

At least 10% (6m) of the population of the UK has at least one Irish grandparent. My sister's husband works 4 days a week in London and lives in Dublin. You know Keith Wood, Brian O'Driscoll & Craig Doyle (BT Sport rugby presenter) all live in Ireland and commute to England to commentate on rugby. In the reverse scenario, Conor O'Shea (lives in London), Shane Horgan (London), Ronan O'Gara (Paris) and Jackman (Grenoble) all appear regularly as rugby pundits on Irish tv/radio despite living and working in other countries.

Ireland is not like New Zealand, stuck in the middle of an ocean many hours flying away from anywhere.

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.

I once dated a girl who told me whilst she had never been to Ireland it was her spiritual home because her great nan was born there. I was in hysterics for hours.... we broke up.

Yes, its really amazing how people the world over are so proud of their Irish identity. 40m Americans claim Irish heritage.

Especially amazing given this specific person was about as Irish as Usain Bolt*

* great granddaddy from county tyrone (well maybe Wink )

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 20 Apr 2016, 5:37 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand has a small population but not much smaller than Ireland.

I know. That's the problem with Ireland too, as well as the fact it's only a fraction the size of New Zealand geographically thumbsdown  

At least 10% (6m) of the population of the UK has at least one Irish grandparent. My sister's husband works 4 days a week in London and lives in Dublin. You know Keith Wood, Brian O'Driscoll & Craig Doyle (BT Sport rugby presenter) all live in Ireland and commute to England to commentate on rugby. In the reverse scenario, Conor O'Shea (lives in London), Shane Horgan (London), Ronan O'Gara (Paris) and Jackman (Grenoble) all appear regularly as rugby pundits on Irish tv/radio despite living and working in other countries.

Ireland is not like New Zealand, stuck in the middle of an ocean many hours flying away from anywhere.

Ireland has a huge disaspara (approx. 80m) people who will come back to Ireland for events such as Ryder Cup, World Cup, Special Olympics etc. The population of Ireland living on the island of Ireland is just not relevant.

I once dated a girl who told me whilst she had never been to Ireland it was her spiritual home because her great nan was born there. I was in hysterics for hours.... we broke up.

Yes, its really amazing how people the world over are so proud of their Irish identity. 40m Americans claim Irish heritage.


Makes you wonder whether its often got something to do with what you look like or skin colour. many Afro-Americans claim their African roots going back many generations and noone blinks an eyelid, however because one cant often look "Irish" similar such claims arent given the same validity.

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Post by Cyril Wed 20 Apr 2016, 5:55 pm

Sin é wrote:40m Americans claim Irish heritage.
I wonder what the overlap is with those who think they've been abducted by aliens?

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Post by Sin é Wed 20 Apr 2016, 5:57 pm

The ties to Ireland have huge validity though. The Irish* were catholic (as were the Italians) in a predominantly protestant country. They were also regarded as 2nd class citizens until JFK broke the mould there. Obama was African-Americans JFK-Irish moment in history.

*You also have Ulster-Scots in US - about 6m of them who claim that heritage.
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Post by Guest Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:03 pm

Sin é wrote:The ties to Ireland have huge validity though. The Irish* were catholic (as were the Italians) in a predominantly protestant country. They were also regarded as 2nd class citizens until JFK broke the mould there. Obama was African-Americans JFK-Irish moment in history.

*You also have Ulster-Scots in US - about 6m of them who claim that heritage.

Sure I've read that some with an Ulster heritage don't identify as Ulster-Scots. Maybe Irish, maybe couldn't be bothered. Maybe a large number from Ulster weren't actually from a Scot background. It isn't as if Ulster wasn't populated before they arrived.

The Ulster folk were the Frontiers men in the USA, as well as playing their part in the big cities, such as New York.

Presidents with Ulster-Scots heritage:

1. Andrew Jackson. 7th President. 1829 1837. Co. Antrim.

2. James Knox Polk. 11th President. 1845 1849. Co. Londonderry.

3. James Buchanan. 15th President. 1857 1861. Co. Tyrone.

4. Andrew Johnson. 17th President. 1865 1869. Co. Antrim.

5. Ulysses S. Grant. 18th President. 1869 1877. Co. Tyrone.

6. Chester A. Arthur. 21st President. 1881 1885. Co. Antrim.

7. Stephen Grover Cleveland. 22nd & 24th President. 1885 1889,1893 1897.

8. Benjamin Harrison. 23rd 1889 1893. Co. Antrim.

9. William McKinley. 25th 1897 1901. Co. Antrim.

10. Theodore Roosevelt. 26th 1901 1904. Co. Antrim.

11. Thomas Woodrow Wilson. 28th 1913 1921. Co. Tyrone.

Sorry, this is just a wee bit off topic. Couldn't help myself Erm

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Post by SecretFly Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:58 pm

I've been reading about Andrew Jackson lately.  I mean I knew about the varnished version from my youthful days - one of the great American pioneer Presidents etc, but the detail....
Boy, he was one .............. well, he was a blood thirsty son-of-a-bitch, to be blunt about it.  
What lives these men of that time led - slave owners, war mongers, addictive duelists, soldiers, revolutionaries, politicians, statesmen and Presidents.  And for some of them, most of that living was done before they got to 30.

Fascinating stuff.... and especially to tie that in then with looking at a real daguerreotype picture of this man Jackson as an old man - a man born in the 1760s - only around forty years after the Golden age of Piracy.  You really then can truly get to wonder at the life this hard faced, wild haired man led.

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Post by Guest Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:I've been reading about Andrew Jackson lately.  I mean I knew about the varnished version from my youthful days - one of the great American pioneer Presidents etc, but the detail....
Boy, he was one .............. well, he was a blood thirsty son-of-a-bitch, to be blunt about it.  
What lives these men of that time led - slave owners, war mongers, addictive duelists, soldiers, revolutionaries, politicians, statesmen and Presidents.  And for some of them, most of that living was done before they got to 30.

Fascinating stuff.... and especially to tie that in then with looking at a real daguerreotype picture of this man Jackson as an old man - a man born in the 1760s - only around forty years after the Golden age of Piracy.  You really then can truly get to wonder at the life this hard faced, wild haired man led.

Ah, you see, a good Ulster man at heart Very Happy Roosevelt was a bit blood thirsty himself.

They were hard times for hard men. The romantic notion of the pioneer is a bit different to the reality, methinks.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:21 pm

Oh it is. But I've always known that and I've always had a love of that mythic time in American history - from the mountain men to the cowboys. A short passage actually in terms of world time but will certainly go down as that Nation's period of myths and legends.

Only thing is - it's possibly the first period of Myths and Legends in all of history that you can actually go back and analyse as a real world. You can see in great detail the reality behind those myths.

Jackson though seemed to have a special relationship with cruelty - and might have been called a tyrant in today's world. It's just always interesting to see how interpretations change through history - how the characteristics of 'Great' men of the past become the despised traits of madmen dictators in this present age.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:02 pm

What lives these men of that time led - slave owners, war mongers, addictive duelists, soldiers, revolutionaries, politicians, statesmen and Presidents. And for some of them, most of that living was done before they got to 30.


& actively involved in the brutal ethnic cleansing of the native population, of course. But what's all this got to do with my thread ?? Erm
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Post by SecretFly Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:13 pm

Nothing.

But the work day is over. We don't talk about your topic until 8.00 am tomorrow morning.

What are you? A slave driver!!!!??? Yahoo

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Post by Rowanbi Thu 21 Apr 2016, 12:11 am

George Washington managed to ignite a full scale Anglo-French war at one point during his military career by wiping out a French diplomatic mission. His men crept up on them while they were making breakfast and shot most of them in the back. Washington then executed their leader and hanged the remaining prisoners to ensure there wouldn't be any witnesses to this obvious war crime. The French army soon got its revenge, defeating Washington's regiment and taking him captive at a cost of just three men. He then signed a confession that he had executed the leader of the diplomatic mission, but later claimed it was all down to a mistranslation. Presumably he hadn't been able to make the connection between the French word 'assassinat' and the English 'assassinate' or something. He also claimed his men had killed 300 Frenchmen, 100 times the actual amount. This was just before his involvement in the Braddock disaster of 1755 when the British & colonial forces were destroyed in a French and Indian ambush.
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Post by fa0019 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 7:57 am

Sin é wrote:The ties to Ireland have huge validity though. The Irish* were catholic (as were the Italians) in a predominantly protestant country. They were also regarded as 2nd class citizens until JFK broke the mould there. Obama was African-Americans JFK-Irish moment in history.

*You also have Ulster-Scots in US - about 6m of them who claim that heritage.

Which is interesting because he's not even really representative of what are African-Americans in the traditional sense...  given his mother is white and his father was from Kenya. I'm sure the electorate and the people within the USA have always treated him the same however so I agree it was certainly a historic moment.

Toasted his inauguration with bottles of Graham Beck Brut sparkling wine... from Stellenbosch, South Africa.

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Post by Rowanbi Thu 21 Apr 2016, 9:00 am

Many Americans claim Irish ancestry falsely, or when there is only a trace in the bloodlines like one 256th or something, due to the popular image the Irish have within the US narrative as white English-speaking refugees escaping persecution and economic hardship. This includes a number of prominent politicians (John Kerry being a current example). The largest ethnic group in America, however, are the Germans, and even though they were also escaping persecution and economic hardship, their image, like those of the Eastern European and Italian immigrants, is less popular due to political and military history. Many of them changed their surnames to sound more English (or Irish). As for African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans they are perceived quite differently, as peoples totally detached from their ancestral homelands. In fact, 'Hispanic' is a terrible misnomer, deliberately alienating a people who are predominantly native to the continent. Meanwhile, far more Americans are of African origin than Irish, realistically-speaking, and America owes a great deal more of its heritage to that continent than it does to some little island just off the coast of Britain.
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Post by fa0019 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 9:23 am

Rowanbi wrote:Many Americans claim Irish ancestry falsely, or when there is only a trace in the bloodlines like one 256th or something, due to the popular image the Irish have within the US narrative as white English-speaking refugees escaping persecution and economic hardship. This includes a number of prominent politicians (John Kerry being a current example). The largest ethnic group in America, however, are the Germans, and even though they were also escaping persecution and economic hardship, their image, like those of the Eastern European and Italian immigrants, is less popular due to political and military history. Many of them changed their surnames to sound more English (or Irish). As for African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans they are perceived quite differently, as peoples totally detached from their ancestral homelands. In fact, 'Hispanic' is a terrible misnomer, deliberately alienating a people who are predominantly native to the continent. Meanwhile, far more Americans are of African origin than Irish, realistically-speaking, and America owes a great deal more of its heritage to that continent than it does to some little island just off the coast of Britain.

Rowanbi... That's not true about Germans being the largest. 30 years ago there were 50 million persons in the USA who claimed English ancestry. Over the last few decades its become less popular to say so.... and people have began to claim American in census data rather than that of English. Academics believe that English Americans make up about 1/4 of all Americans in reality even though the census data does not suggest so. Read up on it. They were the first settlers and had a near monopoly ethnic wise for the first 150 years of white settlement or so... so it makes sense.

Census data is pretty weak anyhow. You tick a single box right... White European Americans are such a mix so you're raised Catholic and name is O'Malley.... perhaps discounting 3/4 of your family who may be Italian/English/German etc. Years back I had a conversation with a colleague who was Ashkenazi Jewish with all his grandparents coming from Russia. Still ticked white British on the census form.

Likewise, in SA you being deemed English or Afrikaans is more to do with what language you have your lessons in school. John Smit, Francois Louw, Gary Teichmann, Gary Botha, Kevin Pietersen are English South Africans but Afrikaners heritage wise. I once started speaking to a guy called Johannes van Niekerk in Afrikaans just assuming he was so (because I knew his name)... he retorted immediately, I'm sorry, I'm English... I don't understand Afrikaans well. One of the most Afrikaans families I have met are called the Duckworths... all with very english first names.

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Post by Rowanbi Thu 21 Apr 2016, 9:28 am

By far the largest ancestral group, stretching from coast to coast across 21st century America is German, with 49,206,934 people. The peak immigration for Germans was in the mid-19th century as thousands were driven from their homes by unemployment and unrest.

By far the largest ancestral group, stretching from coast to coast across 21st century America is German, with 49,206,934 people. The peak immigration for Germans was in the mid-19th century as thousands were driven from their homes by unemployment and unrest.
The majority of German-Americans can now be found in the the center of the nation, with the majority living in Maricopa County, Arizona and according to Business Insider, famous German-Americans include, Ben Affleck, Tom Cruise, Walt Disney, Henry J. Heinz and Oscar Mayer.
Indeed, despite having no successful New World colonies, the first significant groups of German immigrants arrived in the United States in the 1670s and settled in New York and Pennsylvania.
Germans were attracted to America for familiar reasons, open tracts of land and religious freedom and their contributions to the nation included establishing the first kindergartens, Christmas trees and hot dogs and hamburgers.
41,284,752 Black or African Americans
The census map also identifies, Black or African-American as a term for citizens of the United States who have ancestry in Sub-Saharan Africa.
The majority of African Americans are descended from slaves from West and Central Africa and of course have become an integral part of the story of the United States, gaining the right to vote with the 15th amendment in 1870, but struggling with their civil rights for at least another century.
Predominantly living in the south of the nation where they were brought to work on the cotton plantations and as slaves in the late 18th to mid-19th centuries, Black or African Americans also have sizable communities in the Chicago area of Illinois and Detroit, Michigan.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408591/American-ethnicity-map-shows-melting-pot-ethnicities-make-USA-today.html#ixzz46Rp7QHNM
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Post by fa0019 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 9:56 am

Rowanbi wrote:By far the largest ancestral group, stretching from coast to coast across 21st century America is German, with 49,206,934 people. The peak immigration for Germans was in the mid-19th century as thousands were driven from their homes by unemployment and unrest.

By far the largest ancestral group, stretching from coast to coast across 21st century America is German, with 49,206,934 people. The peak immigration for Germans was in the mid-19th century as thousands were driven from their homes by unemployment and unrest.
The majority of German-Americans can now be found in the the center of the nation, with the majority living in Maricopa County, Arizona and according to Business Insider, famous German-Americans include, Ben Affleck, Tom Cruise, Walt Disney, Henry J. Heinz and Oscar Mayer.
Indeed, despite having no successful New World colonies, the first significant groups of German immigrants arrived in the United States in the 1670s and settled in New York and Pennsylvania.
Germans were attracted to America for familiar reasons, open tracts of land and religious freedom and their contributions to the nation included establishing the first kindergartens, Christmas trees and hot dogs and hamburgers.
41,284,752 Black or African Americans
The census map also identifies, Black or African-American as a term for citizens of the United States who have ancestry in Sub-Saharan Africa.
The majority of African Americans are descended from slaves from West and Central Africa and of course have become an integral part of the story of the United States, gaining the right to vote with the 15th amendment in 1870, but struggling with their civil rights for at least another century.
Predominantly living in the south of the nation where they were brought to work on the cotton plantations and as slaves in the late 18th to mid-19th centuries, Black or African Americans also have sizable communities in the Chicago area of Illinois and Detroit, Michigan.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2408591/American-ethnicity-map-shows-melting-pot-ethnicities-make-USA-today.html#ixzz46Rp7QHNM
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Yes, the daily mail.... all completely done on census data where you can pick only 1 box. Its not as simple as people think.

According to the American Community Survey in 2010 data, Americans reporting English ancestry made up an estimated 9.0% of the total U.S. population, and form the third largest European ancestry group after German Americans and Irish Americans. However, demographers regard this as a serious undercount, as the index of inconsistency is high, and many, if not most, people from English stock have a tendency (since the introduction of a new "American" category in the 2000 census) to identify as simply Americans or if of mixed European ancestry, identify with a more recent and differentiated ethnic group. In the 1980 United States Census, over 49 million (49,598,035) Americans claimed English ancestry, at the time around 26.34% of the total population and largest reported group which, even today, would make them the largest ethnic group in the United States. Eight out of the ten most common surnames in the United States are of English origin or having possible mixed British Isles heritage, the other two being of Spanish origin. Scotch-Irish Americans are for the most part descendants of Lowland Scots and Northern English (specifically: County Durham, Cumberland, Northumberland and Westmorland) settlers who colonized Ireland during the Plantation of Ulster in the 17th century.

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Post by Rowanbi Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:04 am

There are many sources for this. I once read a table that was stright from the official department of statistics, but I can't locate it now. I also studied in the Midwest and can certainly vouch for the fact that that region is overwhelmingly Germanic. & then you've got the Pennsylvanian Dutch (actually Deutch). Of course, the major population centers are on the coasts, and they are considerably more cosmopolitan.
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Post by doctor_grey Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:07 am

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:The ties to Ireland have huge validity though. The Irish* were catholic (as were the Italians) in a predominantly protestant country. They were also regarded as 2nd class citizens until JFK broke the mould there. Obama was African-Americans JFK-Irish moment in history.

*You also have Ulster-Scots in US - about 6m of them who claim that heritage.

Sure I've read that some with an Ulster heritage don't identify as Ulster-Scots. Maybe Irish, maybe couldn't be bothered. Maybe a large number from Ulster weren't actually from a Scot background. It isn't as if Ulster wasn't populated before they arrived.

The Ulster folk were the Frontiers men in the USA, as well as playing their part in the big cities, such as New York.

Presidents with Ulster-Scots heritage:

1. Andrew Jackson. 7th President. 1829 1837. Co. Antrim.

2. James Knox Polk. 11th President. 1845 1849. Co. Londonderry.

3. James Buchanan. 15th President. 1857 1861. Co. Tyrone.

4. Andrew Johnson. 17th President. 1865 1869. Co. Antrim.

5. Ulysses S. Grant. 18th President. 1869 1877. Co. Tyrone.

6. Chester A. Arthur. 21st President. 1881 1885. Co. Antrim.

7. Stephen Grover Cleveland. 22nd & 24th President. 1885 1889,1893 1897.

8. Benjamin Harrison. 23rd 1889 1893. Co. Antrim.

9. William McKinley. 25th 1897 1901. Co. Antrim.

10. Theodore Roosevelt. 26th 1901 1904. Co. Antrim.

11. Thomas Woodrow Wilson. 28th 1913 1921. Co. Tyrone.

Sorry, this is just a wee bit off topic. Couldn't help myself Erm
Adding to your list:

George W. Bush - not sure the county - he can't spell it. We know he likes potatoes.
Barak Obama - Limerick

Other leaders:

Jacob Zuma (SA expat from Dublin, Leinster fan)
Xi Jinping (Chinese expact from Cork, Connacht fan, why are they doing so well?)
Kim Jong Il (expat from, well, can't say it or he will unleash a nuclear disaster and make everyone get bad haircuts)
Donald Trump (expat from the Irish colony on Mars)

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Post by fa0019 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:13 am

Rowanbi wrote:There are many sources for this. I once read a table that was stright from the official department of statistics, but I can't locate it now. I also studied in the Midwest and can certainly vouch for the fact that that region is overwhelmingly Germanic. & then you've got the Pennsylvanian Dutch (actually Deutch). Of course, the major population centers are on the coasts, and they are considerably more cosmopolitan.

On the census data no one disputes what you say because its there in black and white. But what demographers say is that its unreliable for the above reasons.

30 years ago English was ticked by 50 million Americans; 1/4 of all Americans. Today only 30 million... What did they all go and move to Canada? 8/10 surnames, all bar 2 president have been predominately British originated (well 3 if you take Obama as half English/half Kenyan). For the first 150 years of white settlement in America it was 85% British only. Few Italians, few Irish, few Germans. Some dutch in fact. It matters because when new waves of migration come in and mix with the more settled European migrants they keep traditions such as the Irish, German and Italians do... but it doesn't mean they are any less English from a DNA point of view... let alone only 30 years as I'll say again, look at the growth of American in the US census data. Got to read between the lines.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:26 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:The ties to Ireland have huge validity though. The Irish* were catholic (as were the Italians) in a predominantly protestant country. They were also regarded as 2nd class citizens until JFK broke the mould there. Obama was African-Americans JFK-Irish moment in history.

*You also have Ulster-Scots in US - about 6m of them who claim that heritage.

Sure I've read that some with an Ulster heritage don't identify as Ulster-Scots. Maybe Irish, maybe couldn't be bothered. Maybe a large number from Ulster weren't actually from a Scot background. It isn't as if Ulster wasn't populated before they arrived.

The Ulster folk were the Frontiers men in the USA, as well as playing their part in the big cities, such as New York.

Presidents with Ulster-Scots heritage:

1. Andrew Jackson. 7th President. 1829 1837. Co. Antrim.

2. James Knox Polk. 11th President. 1845 1849. Co. Londonderry.

3. James Buchanan. 15th President. 1857 1861. Co. Tyrone.

4. Andrew Johnson. 17th President. 1865 1869. Co. Antrim.

5. Ulysses S. Grant. 18th President. 1869 1877. Co. Tyrone.

6. Chester A. Arthur. 21st President. 1881 1885. Co. Antrim.

7. Stephen Grover Cleveland. 22nd & 24th President. 1885 1889,1893 1897.

8. Benjamin Harrison. 23rd 1889 1893. Co. Antrim.

9. William McKinley. 25th 1897 1901. Co. Antrim.

10. Theodore Roosevelt. 26th 1901 1904. Co. Antrim.

11. Thomas Woodrow Wilson. 28th 1913 1921. Co. Tyrone.

Sorry, this is just a wee bit off topic. Couldn't help myself Erm
Adding to your list:

George W. Bush - not sure the county - he can't spell it.  We know he likes potatoes.
Barak Obama - Limerick

Other leaders:

Jacob Zuma (SA expat from Dublin, Leinster fan)
Xi Jinping (Chinese expact from Cork, Connacht fan, why are they doing so well?)
Kim Jong Il (expat from, well, can't say it or he will unleash a nuclear disaster and make everyone get bad haircuts)
Donald Trump (expat from the Irish colony on Mars)

I do love the claiming, we all do it. Its like when the Nobel prizes are announced...

Chap was born in German (Germany claims Nobel prize for xyz)
He studied in Cambridge (UK claims Nobel prize for xyz)
He resides in Harvard (USA claims Nobel prize for xyz)
His mother was from France (France claims Nobel prize for xyz)
His father was from Austria (Austria claims Nobel prize for xyz)


Back to US presidents. Come election time.... 8 generations back Hilary Clinton tells a story about her ancestor Padraig O'Callaghan who left county Mayo whilst eating stew and drinking a pint of Guinness. Next week she's in Little Italy talk about Guiseppe Di Matteo who left Naples in 1870 whilst knocking back a glass of vino, the third week she's in Brooklyn with her Jewish son-in-law.

That's the Irish, Italians and Jewish vote sorted. Boom.. "she's one of our own"

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Post by fa0019 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:31 am

I for instance have in part Italian ancestry, enough that a parent of mine was brought up speaking Italian in the home and I myself have visited my family in italy on a number of occasions and am still in contact with them today.
Yet even with that personal relationship with Italy... I'm about as Italian as Ronald MacDonald***




***You mean "Ronald" Giordano Di Macdonaldino????

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Post by beshocked Thu 21 Apr 2016, 11:09 am

doctor grey Irish can actually claim Barack Obama as one of their own....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneygall#Visit_by_Barack_Obama

Makes him Irish as you can get. Wink

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Post by Sin é Thu 21 Apr 2016, 11:27 am

What happened with the Irish Americans (Italians & Jews) is that they moved to a protestant country so they built their communities separate to the Germans, Sweedes, British etc. They had their own churches, schools, neighbourhoods and married within their own communities. That is how the link with Ireland has remained. Michael Flately (the Irish dancer from Chicago) is probably a good example of this as was his original partner in Riverdance Jean Butler (from New York).

Northern Ireland could be an example of the reverse happening with the Scottish protestants migrants sticking to themselves in a Catholic country.

There is a community of Canadians who migrated from Waterford/Wexford to New Foundland and they still have Waterford accents a couple of hundred years later.
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Post by Sin é Thu 21 Apr 2016, 11:30 am

beshocked wrote:doctor grey Irish can actually claim Barack Obama as one of their own....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneygall#Visit_by_Barack_Obama

Makes him Irish as you can get. Wink

Laugh all you like, but Ireland is the only country in the world that get invited to the White House every year (for St. Patrick's Day). Very useful having an 'in' like that.



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Post by Rowanbi Thu 21 Apr 2016, 11:36 am

Andrew Jackson. 7th President. 1829 1837. Co. Antrim.

Just got booted off the front of the 20 dollar bill, I believe. Anti-slavery heroine Harriet Tubman to replace him. Good decision thumbsup Cool

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