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Six Nations 2016 Wales vs Scotland

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 08 Feb 2016, 9:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Wales v Scotland

4:50pm - Saturday the 13th of February 2016

Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Teams

Wales
15 Liam Williams
14 George North
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts
11 Tom James
10 Dan Biggar
9 Gareth Davies
1 Rob Evans
2 Scott Baldwin
3 Samson Lee
4 Luke Charteris
5 Alun Wyn Jones
6 Sam Warburton (c)
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Taulupe Faletau

Reps: Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Dan Lydiate, Lloyd Williams, Rhys Priestland, Gareth Anscombe

Scotland

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Dunc Taylor
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (c)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

Reps: McInally, Reid, Fagerson, Swinson, Cowan, Hidalgo-Clyne, Weir, Lamont



Referee is unfortunately George Clancy (IRFU) which ruins the game generally.

Touch judges: John Lacey (IRFU) & Federico Anselmi (UAR)

TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)


Last edited by maestegmafia on Fri 12 Feb 2016, 8:54 am; edited 4 times in total

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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:16 pm

munkian wrote:

To be fair, a lot of where we went wrong was down to poor execution - basics that the players should get right.

You can break down most rugby matches to that level of the42 analysis. All teams miss chances that still images make look worse than they are.

Suffice to say, Gatland has consistently failed to maximise the talent available to him and his chosen style of play consistently fails against the better teams.
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
munkian wrote:

To be fair, a lot of where we went wrong was down to poor execution - basics that the players should get right.

You can break down most rugby matches to that level of the42 analysis. All teams miss chances that still images make look worse than they are.

Suffice to say, Gatland has consistently failed to maximise the talent available to him and his chosen style of play consistently fails against the better teams.

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:26 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

He's had the best talented squad in the 6N for years, and has had huge access to it, and has had the entire set up of Welsh rugby pander to his demands.

In return, he's failed to maximise the talent available.

Australia aren't better than Wales. Look at the points difference between the two teams in recent games and you'll see that the talent is not the difference between the teams. The difference is coaching and belief.

With all due respect, Scotland aren't a yardstick worth measuring against. So much is wrong with Scottish rugby that it has already probably hit its peak, despite hiring an excellent coach.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:30 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

Would our attack have been any better without the last minute changes, I don't think so.

If the players that had been training t be the first choice picks had played together you would think that they would have played better in attack and defense yes.

Most poignant being the forced change at flyhalf....!

I thought Williams and Priestland did well to steep in at the last minute, but the team that trained all week together would have been better. Plus I think we would all agree that Dan Biggar, uninjured, is the better flyhalf.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:33 pm

munkian wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Whilst Wales were very poor against an understrength Irish team, the Scots really shouldn't offer any trouble. Wales should win this by 15+.

What was so poor about the Irish?

Most people seemed to think, considering their injuries they were pretty good.

Welsh set piece went well, a few last minute changes changed the attacking attibutes to Wales but otherwise I didn't think we played badly..

Not sure where you're coming from with this..?

What changes would you make?

They were missing a significant number of key players, as you've noted, hence Wales should have beaten them by 10+.

What changes would I make? Three new coaches, for starters.

To be fair, a lot of where we went wrong was down to poor execution - basics that the players should get right.

Aye and it is the same mistakes those same players make at club level. I don't think you can continuously blame the coaches when the same players struggle to make better decisions and less mistakes.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:36 pm

maestegmafia wrote:

Aye and it is the same mistakes those same players make at club level. I don't think you can continuously blame the coaches when the same players struggle to make better decisions and less mistakes.

So Jon Davies makes those mistakes at ASM? North at Northampton? Roberts at Harlequins?

A coach's job is to maximise the talent available. If Howley and Gatland can't do that, somebody else could. Many of our players have performed better than on Sunday, at a similar or higher level, in the past.

Why didn't they do so well on Sunday? Primarily because the opposition were coached to know exactly what Wales were going to do, hence making it easier to stop it and to force errors.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

He's had the best talented squad in the 6N for years, and has had huge access to it, and has had the entire set up of Welsh rugby pander to his demands.

In return, he's failed to maximise the talent available.

Australia aren't better than Wales. Look at the points difference between the two teams in recent games and you'll see that the talent is not the difference between the teams. The difference is coaching and belief.

With all due respect, Scotland aren't a yardstick worth measuring against. So much is wrong with Scottish rugby that it has already probably hit its peak, despite hiring an excellent coach.

I don't want any of our Scottish mates thinking this is a com,only held view in wales, it is not. I think any rugby fan can see the marked improvements in Scottish rugby throughout the RWC and warm up games. It was a surprise to see them stutter so much last weekend. I guess some have not been in great form since the RWC, but they were only an easy pass instead of a kick away from taking back the Calcutta Cup.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:37 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Maes,

Would our attack have been any better without the last minute changes, I don't think so.

If the players that had been training t be the first choice picks had played together you would think that they would have played better in attack and defense yes.

Most poignant being the forced change at flyhalf....!

I thought Williams and Priestland did well to steep in at the last minute, but the team that trained all week together would have been better. Plus I think we would all agree that Dan Biggar, uninjured, is the better flyhalf.

Sorry Maes but thats rubbish in my opinion. Playeers like Roberts, North, James and Williams himself should know how to make a 2 on 1 work and not look for contact all the time which in the main they did.

These are not young kids making their test debuts or new to the International scene they are established International players and making advantages like cound are a basic skill set surely?

I agree with you that Priestland and Williams (overall) done well to step in but they should still be able to execute the basics.
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Post by EST Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:40 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

He's had the best talented squad in the 6N for years, and has had huge access to it, and has had the entire set up of Welsh rugby pander to his demands.

In return, he's failed to maximise the talent available.

Australia aren't better than Wales. Look at the points difference between the two teams in recent games and you'll see that the talent is not the difference between the teams. The difference is coaching and belief.

With all due respect, Scotland aren't a yardstick worth measuring against. So much is wrong with Scottish rugby that it has already probably hit its peak, despite hiring an excellent coach.

So how did a Gatland coached Lions team manage to beat them? Anyway, your point stands about Scotland - we have been atrocious for many years and we probably hit our nadir during the Scot Johnson coaching days. However, there are a few bright spots on the horizon, but the SRU under Dodson are slowly putting the pieces of the puzzle together: New academies, relationship with London Scottish to give more of our younger player’s exposure, more investment in the pro sides etc etc. We have a long way to go, but we are starting to get the infrastructure in place to be competitive again.

Wales will still gubb us this weekend, mind.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Aye and it is the same mistakes those same players make at club level. I don't think you can continuously blame the coaches when the same players struggle to make better decisions and less mistakes.

So Jon Davies makes those mistakes at ASM? North at Northampton? Roberts at Harlequins?

A coach's job is to maximise the talent available. If Howley and Gatland can't do that, somebody else could. Many of our players have performed better than on Sunday, at a similar or higher level, in the past.

Why didn't they do so well on Sunday? Primarily because the opposition were coached to know exactly what Wales were going to do, hence making it easier to stop it and to force errors.

So hypothetically if Wales and Ireland swapped coaches for the game last weekend then you think Wales superior players would have beaten Ireland by what, 20 Points?

Yes Roberts, Davies and North all have the same form and the same issues at club level, they all play the same way at club as they do at International Level.

They are still good players, but their decision making and rugby intelligence has to improve for us to be consistently successful against the top Nations.


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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:43 pm

EST wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

He's had the best talented squad in the 6N for years, and has had huge access to it, and has had the entire set up of Welsh rugby pander to his demands.

In return, he's failed to maximise the talent available.

Australia aren't better than Wales. Look at the points difference between the two teams in recent games and you'll see that the talent is not the difference between the teams. The difference is coaching and belief.

With all due respect, Scotland aren't a yardstick worth measuring against. So much is wrong with Scottish rugby that it has already probably hit its peak, despite hiring an excellent coach.

So how did a Gatland coached Lions team manage to beat them?  Anyway, your point stands about Scotland - we have been atrocious for many years and we probably hit our nadir during the Scot Johnson coaching days.  However, there are a few bright spots on the horizon, but the SRU under Dodson are slowly putting the pieces of the puzzle together: New academies, relationship with London Scottish to give more of our younger player’s exposure, more investment in the pro sides etc etc.  We have a long way to go, but we are starting to get the infrastructure in place to be competitive again.  

Wales will still gubb us this weekend, mind.

And Howley was the backs coach, we also put a lot of points on them in the last test scoring some tasty looking tries too...!

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:44 pm

Roberts and North are 50 cap+ Internationals and Lions tourists surely they should have that intelligence now?
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Post by munkian Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:48 pm

North has hardly been tearing things up for the Saints this season either.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:51 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Roberts and North are 50 cap+ Internationals and Lions tourists surely they should have that intelligence now?

I saw Garin Jenkins at Swansea a few months ago and had a nice chat. I had spoken to him many years ago, before he had his first cap, he had fifty eight when he retired and I still don't think he is anymore intelligent.

Rugby intelligence, game reading, understanding the scenarios and outcomes is not just about experience. It is a natural ability as well as a coached ability. I would say that Justin Tipuric, AWJ and Gethin Jenkins all read the game better than Roberts but Roberts still has his uses.

We could pick a smarter game reader than Roberts, Scott Williams when fit, Owen Watkin in a few seasons maybe, what a shame Gavin Henson's career went the way it did...! None of those players abilities are due to Rob Howley being the Welsh backs coach.

If you look at the spurned chances last weekend, one was AWJ, another was Tipuric and a third was Baldwin, and those were the really easy ones....! AWJ, great tackle by Trimble, Tips, god knows why he didnt stay in the line but dropped back, Baldwin dropped a pass from Priestland.

That is not a coaches fault that is player error on the field.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:53 pm

munkian wrote:North has hardly been tearing things up for the Saints this season either.
Exactly, and Roberts has played abrasively, brilliant in attack, strong ball carrier and a reasonable passing game for quins, no different to his performance last Sunday... Likewise JD2 at ASM

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Post by bsando Wed 10 Feb 2016, 3:57 pm

I think Scotland will perform much better on Saturday. The big step forward for this group of players will be to get 2-3 wins in a row in the 6N. It will definitely be on if they can somehow win in Carfiff. However if they lose in a manner where they played well then it's still no drama. They have the chance to beat Italy away and then face up vs France at home, a game I think Scotland should win. The next three games are going to be very interesting.

For wales I think Scotland need to just go for it. Try and start fast and catch wales off guard.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 4:05 pm

bsando wrote:I think Scotland will perform much better on Saturday. The big step forward for this group of players will be to get 2-3 wins in a row in the 6N. It will definitely be on if they can somehow win in Carfiff. However if they lose in a manner where they played well then it's still no drama. They have the chance to beat Italy away and then face up vs France at home, a game I think Scotland should win. The next three games are going to be very interesting.

For wales I think Scotland need to just go for it. Try and start fast and catch wales off guard.

I don't disagree with this at all. Scotland have a lot of ability in that team and to judge them on last weeks performance is unfair.

There are quite a few new faces in critical areas of the coaching staff. It will take time for these guys to bed in and work. Maybe this weekend but I would say more likely three good performances at the end of the championships.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 10 Feb 2016, 4:13 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

He's had the best talented squad in the 6N for years, and has had huge access to it, and has had the entire set up of Welsh rugby pander to his demands.

In return, he's failed to maximise the talent available.

Australia aren't better than Wales. Look at the points difference between the two teams in recent games and you'll see that the talent is not the difference between the teams. The difference is coaching and belief.

With all due respect, Scotland aren't a yardstick worth measuring against. So much is wrong with Scottish rugby that it has already probably hit its peak, despite hiring an excellent coach.

I don't want any of our Scottish mates thinking this is a com,only held view in wales, it is not. I think any rugby fan can see the marked improvements in Scottish rugby throughout the RWC and warm up games. It was a surprise to see them stutter so much last weekend. I guess some have not been in great form since the RWC, but they were only an easy pass instead of a kick away from taking back the Calcutta Cup.

Don't worry Maes, we know our failings but hopefully can catch up with the rest of you. Hopefully during my time on this earth.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 10 Feb 2016, 4:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Not sure about that. His record in the 6N is pretty good. We'd kill for a couple of grand slams!

With regards to the SH (particularly Oz & NZ), style of play and talent available still wouldn't be enough. They're just better than you.

Anyway, fret not. You'll hammer us Saturday and all will be good in the hood.

He's had the best talented squad in the 6N for years, and has had huge access to it, and has had the entire set up of Welsh rugby pander to his demands.

In return, he's failed to maximise the talent available.

Australia aren't better than Wales. Look at the points difference between the two teams in recent games and you'll see that the talent is not the difference between the teams. The difference is coaching and belief.

With all due respect, Scotland aren't a yardstick worth measuring against. So much is wrong with Scottish rugby that it has already probably hit its peak, despite hiring an excellent coach.

I'm afraid they are.

There's no shame in it Phil - they're better than most teams. In fact, after their 'poor' period lately, I'd say they are now definitely better than everyone bar NZ.

Put it this way, we've beaten them a couple of times lately-ish (home and away) and then lost by a point in the 1/4 finals.

Despite that, I'm realistic and honest enough to admit that they, in general, are a far better team than Scotland.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 4:50 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Roberts and North are 50 cap+ Internationals and Lions tourists surely they should have that intelligence now?

I saw Garin Jenkins at Swansea a few months ago and had a nice chat. I had spoken to him many years ago, before he had his first cap, he had fifty eight when he retired and I still don't think he is anymore intelligent.

Rugby intelligence, game reading, understanding the scenarios and outcomes is not just about experience. It is a natural ability as well as a coached ability. I would say that Justin Tipuric, AWJ and Gethin Jenkins all read the game better than Roberts but Roberts still has his uses.

We could pick a smarter game reader than Roberts, Scott Williams when fit, Owen Watkin in a few seasons maybe, what a shame Gavin Henson's career went the way it did...! None of those players abilities are due to Rob Howley being the Welsh backs coach.

If you look at the spurned chances last weekend, one was AWJ, another was Tipuric and a third was Baldwin, and those were the really easy ones....! AWJ, great tackle by Trimble, Tips, god knows why he didnt stay in the line but dropped back, Baldwin dropped a pass from Priestland.

That is not a coaches fault that is player error on the field.

Thne the coaches should be dropping them or got rid of themselves for not making the big calls. I still insist that the likes of Roberts, North, JD, Williams and pretty much any back at this level should be able to do the basic of making a 2 on 1 count.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 4:58 pm

maestegmafia wrote:

I don't want any of our Scottish mates thinking this is a com,only held view in wales, it is not. I think any rugby fan can see the marked improvements in Scottish rugby throughout the RWC and warm up games. It was a surprise to see them stutter so much last weekend. I guess some have not been in great form since the RWC, but they were only an easy pass instead of a kick away from taking back the Calcutta Cup.

Why would it have been a surprise? Cotter only had a couple of weeks to work with them. At RWC, Cotter - a far superior coach to Gatland - had months to work with them so got them well above the sum of their parts.

And, even then, they were thumped by South Africa and just scraped by Samoa.

They are not a strong group of players.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:00 pm

Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland. What are the respective records etc?
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:00 pm

EST wrote:
So how did a Gatland coached Lions team manage to beat them?  Anyway, your point stands about Scotland - we have been atrocious for many years and we probably hit our nadir during the Scot Johnson coaching days.  However, there are a few bright spots on the horizon, but the SRU under Dodson are slowly putting the pieces of the puzzle together: New academies, relationship with London Scottish to give more of our younger player’s exposure, more investment in the pro sides etc etc.  We have a long way to go, but we are starting to get the infrastructure in place to be competitive again.  

Wales will still gubb us this weekend, mind.

The Aussies lost as they were woeful that year under Deans and because they had Beale taking kicks at goal in Brisbane.

Scotland will never improve under Union ownership of the professional teams and having only two professional teams. The Academy work, and getting the game out of the fee paying schools, will take decades.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:01 pm

maestegmafia wrote:

So hypothetically if Wales and Ireland swapped coaches for the game last weekend then you think Wales superior players would have beaten Ireland by what, 20 Points?

Yes Roberts, Davies and North all have the same form and the same issues at club level, they all play the same way at club as they do at International Level.

They are still good players, but their decision making and rugby intelligence has to improve for us to be consistently successful against the top Nations.


I think if Schmidt had been coach of Wales for more than 8 years then Sunday's winning margin for Wales would have been 15+.

Your middle sentence indicates that you don't watch much English or French rugby.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:03 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
That is not a coaches fault that is player error on the field.

Which, of course, negates the coach from any criticism ever as humans will always make errors on the pitch.

It also completely ignores the point of coaching - which is to maximise the player abilities.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:04 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
munkian wrote:North has hardly been tearing things up for the Saints this season either.
Exactly, and Roberts has played abrasively, brilliant in attack, strong ball carrier and a reasonable passing game for quins, no different to his performance last Sunday... Likewise JD2 at ASM

Davies doesn't play like that for Montferrand.

The Roberts I saw a few weeks ago at The Stoop was a very different Roberts from the one we see playing for Wales.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:05 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
I'm afraid they are.

There's no shame in it Phil - they're better than most teams. In fact, after their 'poor' period lately, I'd say they are now definitely better than everyone bar NZ.

Put it this way, we've beaten them a couple of times lately-ish (home and away) and then lost by a point in the 1/4 finals.

Despite that, I'm realistic and honest enough to admit that they, in general, are a far better team than Scotland.

If they were much better then the score lines should reflect that. In fact, the score lines suggest something very different and, if you look at how the games have been played out, you'll find another pattern again.

Wales could easily have more victories against them, but for coaching, in the last 8 years.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:06 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland.  What are the respective records etc?

Firstly, Cotter has amended his approach since the turn of the decade.

Cotter and Schmidt would get top franchise coaching in New Zealand. I doubt Gatland would.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:09 pm

PhilBB wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland.  What are the respective records etc?

Firstly, Cotter has amended his approach since the turn of the decade.

Cotter and Schmidt would get top franchise coaching in New Zealand. I doubt Gatland would.

But what is his record of success. Surely if all 3 went for similar job then a CV with success on it would look better than 'he's amended his approach'. I don't know what Cotter record is like hence asking just for comparison.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:35 pm

So done it bit of digging here goes:

VERN COTTER

International Honours 0 Win ratio 45.45%
Club Honours
Clermont
Top 14
Winners: 2009–10
Runners-up: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09

Heineken Cup
Runners-up: 2012–13

European Challenge Cup
Winners: 2006–07

Crusaders
Super Rugby
Winners: 2005, 2006
Runners-up: 2004

WARREN GATLAND

International Honours

Ireland – Win Ratio 47.37%

6 Nations Runners Up 2001

Wales Win Ratio 51.76%

6 Nations
Grand Slam 2008, 2012
Chamoinship 2013

Triple Crown 2008, 2012

Lions 2013

Club Rugby

London Wasps
Zurich Premiership
Winners: 2002–03, 2003–04, 2004–05

Heineken Cup
Winners: 2003–04

European Challenge Cup
Winners: 2002–03

Waikato
Air New Zealand Cup
Winners: 2006

Think I know which CV employers would see as the better one.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
I'm afraid they are.

There's no shame in it Phil - they're better than most teams. In fact, after their 'poor' period lately, I'd say they are now definitely better than everyone bar NZ.

Put it this way, we've beaten them a couple of times lately-ish (home and away) and then lost by a point in the 1/4 finals.

Despite that, I'm realistic and honest enough to admit that they, in general, are a far better team than Scotland.

If they were much better then the score lines should reflect that. In fact, the score lines suggest something very different and, if you look at how the games have been played out, you'll find another pattern again.

Wales could easily have more victories against them, but for coaching, in the last 8 years.

Moral victories don't count Phil.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:37 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland.  What are the respective records etc?

Firstly, Cotter has amended his approach since the turn of the decade.

Cotter and Schmidt would get top franchise coaching in New Zealand. I doubt Gatland would.

But what is his record of success.  Surely if all 3 went for similar job then a CV with success on it would look better than 'he's amended his approach'.  I don't know what Cotter record is like hence asking just for comparison.

Cotter has never won the European cup, Gatland has twice and with no where near the budget Cotter had available at Clermont.

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Post by Shifty Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:40 pm

Why are people slaggíng off the Welsh coaches?
They have achieved more than any Welsh coaches ever, and a draw in Ireland is a very good result all things considered, they have won the championship for the last 2 tournaments.
We should beat France, Italy and Scotland at home, and England are still gelling so a win at Twickenham is not impossible.
in 7 or so weeks these same people could be saying what a brilliant coach Gatland is.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:41 pm

Gatland may not be to everyones taste and cetainly not to the purists who want to see us the the 'Welsh Way' whatever that is these days but after the dross of 90s and early 2000s that we annually had to endure then I am quite happy to have seen us get the achievements we have had.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
munkian wrote:North has hardly been tearing things up for the Saints this season either.
Exactly, and Roberts has played abrasively, brilliant in attack, strong ball carrier and a reasonable passing game for quins, no different to his performance last Sunday... Likewise JD2 at ASM

Davies doesn't play like that for Montferrand.

The Roberts I saw a few weeks ago at The Stoop was a very different Roberts from the one we see playing for Wales.

If you want criticise anyone's knowledge of French rugby make sure you get your teams right mate...

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 10 Feb 2016, 5:49 pm

Shifty wrote:Why are people slaggíng off the Welsh coaches?
They have achieved more than any Welsh coaches ever, and a draw in Ireland is a very good result all things considered, they have won the championship for the last 2 tournaments.
We should beat France, Italy and Scotland at home, and England are still gelling so a win at Twickenham is not impossible.  
in 7 or so weeks these same people could be saying what a brilliant coach Gatland is.

Shifty,

It's more the backroom staff, Howley and McBryde specifically that people like myself have criticised. Our scrum whilst better last week was a shambles in the WC and our attack is blunt and predictable and has been for the last 8 years.

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Post by glamorganalun Wed 10 Feb 2016, 7:35 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Shifty wrote:Why are people slaggíng off the Welsh coaches?
They have achieved more than any Welsh coaches ever, and a draw in Ireland is a very good result all things considered, they have won the championship for the last 2 tournaments.
We should beat France, Italy and Scotland at home, and England are still gelling so a win at Twickenham is not impossible.  
in 7 or so weeks these same people could be saying what a brilliant coach Gatland is.

Shifty,

It's more the backroom staff, Howley and McBryde specifically that people like myself have criticised.  Our scrum whilst better last week was a shambles in the WC and our attack is blunt and predictable and has been for the last 8 years.


Agree, Wales should have got rid of McBryde and Howley 6 years ago, attack is poor and set piece needs to improve and not consistent

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Post by Knowsit17 Wed 10 Feb 2016, 7:45 pm

In fairness to McBryde, he's never had a vast array of talent to work with in the scrum. For the majority of his time with Wales Jenkins and Adam Jones have been first choice and while both were generally very good when fit, there was always a yawning gap in quality behind them. Now the main drivers are the comparatively inexperienced Evans and Lee, who each still have development ahead of them.

One of McBryde's main limitations for me is his inability to get the props adapted to the revised scrummaging rules introduced a couple of seasons ago now. They could thrive with 'engage' but 'set' seems to have subdued our scrum immensely from what it was. If this isn't sorted within the next year I'd probably be inclined to look farther afield for a better forwards coach.

That said, none of the critics seems to be suggesting any potential replacements.

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Post by TJ Wed 10 Feb 2016, 7:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:

Why didn't they do so well on Sunday? Primarily because the opposition were coached to know exactly what Wales were going to do, hence making it easier to stop it and to force errors.

this is my issue with Gatlandball - mind you the other 6N teams despite knowing whats coming seem to be unable to counter it - but wales lack of tries is also a teling stat - safety first rugby does not get you many tries - and to beat the SH teams you need to score tries

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Post by Dontheman2 Wed 10 Feb 2016, 7:51 pm

by mikey_dragon on Mon 08 Feb 2016, 11:35 pm
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Priestland will be criticised regardless of how well he plays.

He played okay... He isn't a competent international

Forgive me, but if he played okay, doesn't that make him a competent international?

No, he lacks composure. I say he played okay because it wasn't a disastrous performance.

Cometh the time cometh the man!

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 10 Feb 2016, 8:13 pm

Well i cannot see Wales losing this game to be honest....But Scotland can every now and again turn in good game.


Scotland will be hurting from the loss to England on Saturday.... so will want to put in a good performance, to try and prove that they are not a wooden spoon team for this tournament.

Wales will also be hurting for the draw against Ireland...Both Wales and Scotland are struggling to score tries in this tournament. Wales will hope to over come that drought against Scotland this week.

If you try and predict the score on last week ends game's i would go Wales 20 Scotland 10.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 8:46 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Shifty wrote:Why are people slaggíng off the Welsh coaches?
They have achieved more than any Welsh coaches ever, and a draw in Ireland is a very good result all things considered, they have won the championship for the last 2 tournaments.
We should beat France, Italy and Scotland at home, and England are still gelling so a win at Twickenham is not impossible.  
in 7 or so weeks these same people could be saying what a brilliant coach Gatland is.

Shifty,

It's more the backroom staff, Howley and McBryde specifically that people like myself have criticised.  Our scrum whilst better last week was a shambles in the WC and our attack is blunt and predictable and has been for the last 8 years.


And has been since we had a creative inside centre

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 8:57 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Well i cannot see Wales losing this game to be honest....But Scotland can every now and again turn in good game.


Scotland will be hurting from the loss to England on Saturday.... so will want to put in a good performance, to try and prove that they are not a wooden spoon team for this tournament.

Wales will also be hurting for the draw against Ireland...Both Wales and Scotland are struggling to score tries in this tournament. Wales will hope to over come that drought against Scotland this week.

If you try and predict the score on last week ends game's i would go Wales 20 Scotland 10.

Going on last weeks accuracy of prediction by yourself I'll take that as a result


majesticimperialman wrote:

 i will go for 15 points apiece.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:11 pm

BedfordWelsh wrote: Think I know which CV employers would see as the better one.

Are you sure Cotter coached the Crusaders? I thought Deans was their coach during all their years of dominance.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:19 pm

PhilBB wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland.  What are the respective records etc?

Firstly, Cotter has amended his approach since the turn of the decade.

Cotter and Schmidt would get top franchise coaching in New Zealand. I doubt Gatland would.

Bedford is right, he isn't. The trouble with you Phil is you think your opinion is fact and nothing else matters. It's what I like to call idiot's logic.

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:32 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Well i cannot see Wales losing this game to be honest....But Scotland can every now and again turn in good game.


Scotland will be hurting from the loss to England on Saturday.... so will want to put in a good performance, to try and prove that they are not a wooden spoon team for this tournament.

Wales will also be hurting for the draw against Ireland...Both Wales and Scotland are struggling to score tries in this tournament. Wales will hope to over come that drought against Scotland this week.

If you try and predict the score on last week ends game's i would go Wales 20 Scotland 10.

Going on last weeks accuracy of prediction by yourself I'll take that as a result


majesticimperialman wrote:

 i will go for 15 points apiece.


Maes.

I was going on each teams performance last week.

I cannot see it be a draw this week.

Gatland said it was like kissing his sister, after last weeks game.

I don't think he will wan't to kiss his sister twice in 2 weeks. do you. kiss


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Post by EST Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:
EST wrote:
So how did a Gatland coached Lions team manage to beat them?  Anyway, your point stands about Scotland - we have been atrocious for many years and we probably hit our nadir during the Scot Johnson coaching days.  However, there are a few bright spots on the horizon, but the SRU under Dodson are slowly putting the pieces of the puzzle together: New academies, relationship with London Scottish to give more of our younger player’s exposure, more investment in the pro sides etc etc.  We have a long way to go, but we are starting to get the infrastructure in place to be competitive again.  

Wales will still gubb us this weekend, mind.

The Aussies lost as they were woeful that year under Deans and because they had Beale taking kicks at goal in Brisbane.

Scotland will never improve under Union ownership of the professional teams and having only two professional teams. The Academy work, and getting the game out of the fee paying schools, will take decades.

Woeful enough to beat Wales at home a few months later of course, albeit under different management.

As for private ownership and increasing the number of teams, well if you can find 3-4 organisations to drop multiple millions annually into Scottish Rugby, then great. Unfortunately you won't get very far, because those people don't exist. If you don't follow Scottish rugby and only judge it once every year at the 6N, I can forgive you for not noticing the incremental improvements our Union is making. It's not going to happen over night, but we are on the right track.


Last edited by EST on Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:48 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Well i cannot see Wales losing this game to be honest....But Scotland can every now and again turn in good game.


Scotland will be hurting from the loss to England on Saturday.... so will want to put in a good performance, to try and prove that they are not a wooden spoon team for this tournament.

Wales will also be hurting for the draw against Ireland...Both Wales and Scotland are struggling to score tries in this tournament. Wales will hope to over come that drought against Scotland this week.

If you try and predict the score on last week ends game's i would go Wales 20 Scotland 10.

Going on last weeks accuracy of prediction by yourself I'll take that as a result


majesticimperialman wrote:

 i will go for 15 points apiece.


Maes.

I was going on each teams performance last week.

I cannot see it be a draw this week.

Gatland said it was like kissing his sister, after last weeks game.

I don't think he will wan't to kiss his sister twice in 2 weeks. do you. kiss


I like your Wales 20 - 10 Scotland prediction mate. I'll be off to the bookies in the morning.

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 10 Feb 2016, 9:50 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Well i cannot see Wales losing this game to be honest....But Scotland can every now and again turn in good game.


Scotland will be hurting from the loss to England on Saturday.... so will want to put in a good performance, to try and prove that they are not a wooden spoon team for this tournament.

Wales will also be hurting for the draw against Ireland...Both Wales and Scotland are struggling to score tries in this tournament. Wales will hope to over come that drought against Scotland this week.

If you try and predict the score on last week ends game's i would go Wales 20 Scotland 10.

Going on last weeks accuracy of prediction by yourself I'll take that as a result


majesticimperialman wrote:

 i will go for 15 points apiece.


Maes.

I was going on each teams performance last week.

I cannot see it be a draw this week.

Gatland said it was like kissing his sister, after last weeks game.

I don't think he will wan't to kiss his sister twice in 2 weeks. do you. kiss


I like your Wales 20 - 10 Scotland prediction mate. I'll be off to the bookies in the morning.


Best of luck....Might have a bet myself. thumbsup

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Post by maestegmafia Wed 10 Feb 2016, 10:01 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Well i cannot see Wales losing this game to be honest....But Scotland can every now and again turn in good game.


Scotland will be hurting from the loss to England on Saturday.... so will want to put in a good performance, to try and prove that they are not a wooden spoon team for this tournament.

Wales will also be hurting for the draw against Ireland...Both Wales and Scotland are struggling to score tries in this tournament. Wales will hope to over come that drought against Scotland this week.

If you try and predict the score on last week ends game's i would go Wales 20 Scotland 10.

Going on last weeks accuracy of prediction by yourself I'll take that as a result


majesticimperialman wrote:

 i will go for 15 points apiece.


Maes.

I was going on each teams performance last week.

I cannot see it be a draw this week.

Gatland said it was like kissing his sister, after last weeks game.

I don't think he will wan't to kiss his sister twice in 2 weeks. do you. kiss


I like your Wales 20 - 10 Scotland prediction mate. I'll be off to the bookies in the morning.


Best of luck....Might have a bet myself. thumbsup




What are your predictions for the other scores???


I think your predictions were within five points last week.

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