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Peak Djokovic vs peak Federer...

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Post by lydian Thu 11 Feb 2016, 11:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Having read this article recently:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2525032-who-was-more-dominant-at-their-peak-roger-federer-or-novak-djokovic#

Its seems that the standard mantra is Fed raised the bar in tennis, then Nadal, then Djokovic, with people saying that Djokovic is now playing the best level of tennis the game has ever seen.

Then we have Djokovic saying Fed was playing better than ever at USO 2015:
http://espn.go.com/tennis/usopen15/story/_/id/13539741/novak-djokovic-says-roger-federer-top-form-ahead-us-open

So where are we at? Federer at 34.5 is arguably competing at nearly the same level as Djokovic (after all he beat him 3 times out of Djoko's 6 losses last year). Does this effectively mean that peak Fed (surely most don't accept Fed is at peak now?) therefore played a higher level of tennis than current peak Djokovic? Another question I saw raised about 2 of these guys main slams achievements is this...is Fed's 5 USOs on the bounce more impressive than Djoko's 6 AO's or vice-versa?

This is also an interesting read on the topic: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/djokovic-and-federer-are-vying-to-be-the-greatest-of-all-time/


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Post by Josiah Maiestas Sun 14 Feb 2016, 12:49 pm

The most weird thing of his peak is that he is 28 nearly 29 and is running and hitting balls like he is a youthful 21 year old, not like he's been on the tour for 11 years... It makes you wonder how he is able to play like that after so many years when Federer had clearly declined at the same age as Nadal has.

Maybe he has found something that takes him back in time to his younger self?
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 14 Feb 2016, 1:02 pm

Different players peak and fade at different ages. Look at Boris Becker his peak came around the age of 24.
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Post by lydian Sun 14 Feb 2016, 2:18 pm

Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 14 Feb 2016, 2:47 pm

lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

As you should know there is quite a difference though. Rafa has had lengthy spells out with injuries that have ended others careers so he is carrying many battle scars unlike Djokovic. These injuries in turn must impact on the amount of fitness work he has been able to do compared to Novak as well.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun 14 Feb 2016, 3:34 pm

1) I said Novak couldnt exploit Fed's SHBH the way Rafa could so obviously I'm aware that Fed's BH match up badly vs Rafa's FH.

2) as I said, Rafa was off his peak or at least coming down from his peak on clay after 2010 so he losing more on clay was to be expected. I would think that Rafa during his heydays wont be losing 6 out of 11 times on clay to Novak, esp when the last 2 losses were during his worst season in 2015, though Novak would play Rafa tough on clay, tougher than Fed did.

3) during Fed's heydays from 2004 to 2008, he had more wins on clay over the field that excluded Rafa, and one fewer loss, compared to Novak's heydays from 2011 to 2015.

4) Given that Fed vs Novak is 4:4 on clay, Fed was 2-1 prior to 2011 and 2-3 thereafter, there wasnt much that separated them on clay so I said they're 50:50 on clay, peak for peak.

5) Fed did win a FO title nearing the end of his peak, we'll see whether Novak could do the same.


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Post by Calder106 Sun 14 Feb 2016, 4:13 pm

lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

He is managing his schedule well. So getting good recovery time. Along with Federer he has played the least number of tournaments in the past year. Only Dubai, Beijing and Doha along with 1 Davis Cup rubber outside of the Slams and Masters 1000's. Also didn't go and play in the IPTL in December so would get a proper off season.

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Post by socal1976 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 6:40 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:1) I said Novak couldnt exploit Fed's SHBH the way Rafa could so obviously I'm aware that Fed's BH match up badly vs Rafa's FH.

2) as I said, Rafa was off his peak or at least coming down from his peak on clay after 2010 so he losing more on clay was to be expected. I would think that Rafa during his heydays wont be losing 6 out of 11 times on clay to Novak, esp when the last 2 losses were during his worst season in 2015, though Novak would play Rafa tough on clay, tougher than Fed did.

3) during Fed's heydays from 2004 to 2008, he had more wins on clay over the field that excluded Rafa, and one fewer loss, compared to Novak's heydays from 2011 to 2015.

4) Given that Fed vs Novak is 4:4 on clay, Fed was 2-1 prior to 2011 and 2-3 thereafter, there wasnt much that separated them on clay so I said they're 50:50 on clay, peak for peak.

5) Fed did win a FO title nearing the end of his peak, we'll see whether Novak could do the same.


A wrong again. The argument who is more vulnerable on clay. And if you want to win clay court tournaments up till last year you would have to go through Nadal, which fed's backhand was ill equipped to handle. We are not talking about who would win a hypothetical time machine match between Novak and Roger. The question is whose more vulnerable on clay, and Roger is because he could not be even remotely competitive against the guy who decides every single clay court title up till 18 months ago. And in terms of VULNERABILITY to other stars you point is completely unsupported by the fact that Novak's win percentage is a full 30 percentage points higher on clay against the tour than Roger's. And Novak will certainly surpass Roger's mark of clay titles both are currently tied at 11.

Again you can keep repeating your same mistaken points in favor of your pretty silly claim that Novak is more vulnerable on clay than Roger but it won't make it true. If it was Novak would not have a much better winning percentage on clay and be surpassing Roger's tournament win mark. Plus he certainly isn't more vulnerable to the guy who typically would decide clay court tournaments, Rafa Nadal.

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Post by socal1976 Mon 15 Feb 2016, 6:45 pm

lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

Train 5-8 hours a day, eliminate dairy, eliminate gluten, don't drink alcohol, drink only room temperature water, stretch your body till your as flexible as gumby, and of course get yourself a CVAC apparently. That apparently is the formula for longevity and it isn't surprising that Novak has it due to the sheer obsessiveness of his holistic approach and discipline. He certainly is in the top 1 percent of tour level tennis players in terms of discipline and work ethic.

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Post by TRuffin Mon 15 Feb 2016, 7:03 pm

socal1976 wrote:
lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

Train 5-8 hours a day, eliminate dairy, eliminate gluten, don't drink alcohol, drink only room temperature water, stretch your body till your as flexible as gumby, and of course get yourself a CVAC apparently. That apparently is the formula for longevity and it isn't surprising that Novak has it due to the sheer obsessiveness of his holistic approach and discipline. He certainly is in the top 1 percent of  tour level tennis players in terms of discipline and work ethic.

Djoko win % on clay is a "full 30% higher" than Feds? Are you sure about that?

Feds career % on clay is 76.2 % and Djokovics 79.6. I'm guessing you mean 3%.

In terms of Djoko not drinking alcohol- One of his top sponsors is a wine company and features videos of Novak and his wife enjoying wine and talking about how important it is to them.

Not that it means anything- just saying.

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Post by slashermcguirk Mon 15 Feb 2016, 8:34 pm

Djokovic has the edge over federer on clay in my view. I am pretty sure djokovic has a higher winning percentage on the surface and he also has 6 wins over nadal on clay, many of which were finals.

There is no doubt that federer was an excellent clay courter but the litmus test on clay was always taking on nadal. Djokovic has always given nadal problems even in his prime. Look at that Madrid semi, French open semi that went to 5 sets. Federer was never able to test nadal like that on clay. Djokovic also has wins against nadal at the French, Monte Carlo, Madrid and Rome which have different court speeds.

While federer has the French open win, we all know soderling did him the biggest of favours that year!


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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 16 Feb 2016, 1:00 am

Aren't we comparing peak Fed vs peak Novak? So we should compare their clay court results in their respective peak (Fed from 2004-2008, Novak 2011 to 2015) and not comparing their clay court stats between a 34 yo and a 28 yo now.

Fed did push Rafa to the limit at Rome 2006 final, having MP. Had he won that final, things might look different now. We can talk about the match up issues but Fed didnt just roll over when facing a peak Rafa. Their matches on clay from 2005 to 2008 werent always straight forward except that FO2008 final - the FO matches from 2005-2007, MC2006, Hamburg 2007 where Fed won, Hamburg 2008.

Novak now is in his peak but Rafa is not; Rafa has slowly come down from his peak and so their matches on clay were closer now than prior to 2011 - Novak 4-2 in BO3 and 0-3 in BO5 from 2011 to 2014. Novak also has the fortune of meeting and beating a fading Rafa on clay in 2015 hence his two easy wins in 2015.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Tue 16 Feb 2016, 2:09 am

In fact Fed was better in 2009 on clay than in his 2004, winning a Masters and the FO, and having a win over Rafa on clay.

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Post by Guest Tue 16 Feb 2016, 10:46 am

It was a peak Federer vs peak Djokovic discussion which sidetracked into a discussion in which player is the more vulnerable against Nadal to which was quantified by results which in essence doesn't address the question's qualitative nature. Then we end up tying the discussion up by saying it got away from the original thread subject.

I am confused.

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Post by Jahu Tue 16 Feb 2016, 11:14 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:

I am confused.

Well, that's news of the day Smile

I think the fallout of Nadal has made a few of his fans here to spin Nadal as the ex-great one and insert him into every thread and not be forgotten.



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Post by socal1976 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 4:32 pm

TRuffin wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

Train 5-8 hours a day, eliminate dairy, eliminate gluten, don't drink alcohol, drink only room temperature water, stretch your body till your as flexible as gumby, and of course get yourself a CVAC apparently. That apparently is the formula for longevity and it isn't surprising that Novak has it due to the sheer obsessiveness of his holistic approach and discipline. He certainly is in the top 1 percent of  tour level tennis players in terms of discipline and work ethic.

Djoko win % on clay is a "full 30% higher" than Feds?   Are you sure about that?  

Feds career % on clay is 76.2 % and Djokovics 79.6.   I'm guessing you mean 3%.      

In terms of Djoko not drinking alcohol- One of his top sponsors is a wine company and features videos of Novak and his wife enjoying wine and talking about how important it is to them.  

Not that it means anything- just saying.

30 points on the 1000 point scale since they do the percentages on 3 digits in all those winning percentage stats should have been higher. As for drinking, the drinking Djokovic does is not drinking my friend. Getting paid to have a glass of wine or celebrating a slam with as he says one beer. From his own statements he basically has eliminated alcohol except for one beer or wine every now and again as a reward. He is at best what would be called a very light occasional drinker. Maybe in my own personal lexicon it counts for me as pretty much a non-drinker. Going by the statements he has made about alcohol in the past it sounds like he is a one drink or two drinks a month kind of guys, little more or less

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Post by socal1976 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 4:37 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:It was a peak Federer vs peak Djokovic discussion which sidetracked into a discussion in which player is the more vulnerable against Nadal to which was quantified by results which in essence doesn't address the question's qualitative nature. Then we end up tying the discussion up by saying it got away from the original thread subject.

I am confused.

Yes the reason the topic morphed is because BLB claimed "Djokovic was more vulnerable than Roger on clay". I took issue with the fact because of how much better Djokovic plays Nadal on clay and the fact that outside the 09 FO if you look at Djokovic's clay resume it is better. Better win percentage against the tour, equal clay court titles(although Novak is probably a shoe in to finish with more in that count) and he still has chances at the FO, good ones. So I repeat anyone who has watched a fedal match and Djoko/Nadal match on clay and watched how Djokovic handles Nadal's FH to the backhand and how Fed handles it would have to have either wishful ignorance or an 80 iq to claim that Djokovic is more vulnerable considering how he handles the high heavy ball on the backhand infinitely better than fed. Whether we are talking Fed 05 or Fed 2015.

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Post by Guest Tue 16 Feb 2016, 6:22 pm

I actually agreed with your stance socal. It was an odd argument thrown into the mix and the backtrack was amusing.

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Post by socal1976 Tue 16 Feb 2016, 7:21 pm

Thanks LK, I mean I like BLB and his/her positive energy for Nadal. But this idea that Djokovic is more vulnerable on clay than Federer is bit preposterous considering their various H2H records v. the guy who up till last year decided all the titles on clay is a bit silly and bordering on willful ignorance. By the way Novak's technique and style will allow him to be just a better high ball hitter than Fed. IE two handed BH v. SH backhand, western FH v. semi western/easternish for Fed. Its the same advantage in reverse that Roger's style will naturally produce on a quick hardcourt or grass.

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Post by TRuffin Wed 17 Feb 2016, 12:33 am

socal1976 wrote:
TRuffin wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

Train 5-8 hours a day, eliminate dairy, eliminate gluten, don't drink alcohol, drink only room temperature water, stretch your body till your as flexible as gumby, and of course get yourself a CVAC apparently. That apparently is the formula for longevity and it isn't surprising that Novak has it due to the sheer obsessiveness of his holistic approach and discipline. He certainly is in the top 1 percent of  tour level tennis players in terms of discipline and work ethic.

Djoko win % on clay is a "full 30% higher" than Feds?   Are you sure about that?  

Feds career % on clay is 76.2 % and Djokovics 79.6.   I'm guessing you mean 3%.      

In terms of Djoko not drinking alcohol- One of his top sponsors is a wine company and features videos of Novak and his wife enjoying wine and talking about how important it is to them.  

Not that it means anything- just saying.

30 points on the 1000 point scale since they do the percentages on 3 digits in all those winning percentage stats should have been higher. As for drinking, the drinking Djokovic does is not drinking my friend. Getting paid to have a glass of wine or celebrating a slam with as he says one beer. From his own statements he basically has eliminated alcohol except for one beer or wine every now and again as a reward. He is at best what would be called a very light occasional drinker. Maybe in my own personal lexicon it counts for me as pretty much a non-drinker. Going by the statements he has made about alcohol in the past it sounds like he is a one drink or two drinks a month kind of guys, little more or less

You put a percentage sign next to the 30 so it reads 30%, but even 30 on a 1000 scale is only 3%- which is the right amount. At one time Feds % was higher of course- as he ages it has and prob will go down further. Djokovics will too if he plays into his mid 30's. I bet it will be fairly even when it's all said and done. There is no doubt fed is more vulnerable against nadal on clay. Just no way around it with the style, backhand difference, so I agree- even though against the rest of the field there is little difference- Fed is more vunerable in winning the titles. At least in the past since nadal would be there.

I hear you on the drinking- was just curious at the statement since I just saw those videos of him talking about wine.

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Post by socal1976 Wed 17 Feb 2016, 2:39 am

TRuffin wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
TRuffin wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
lydian wrote:Yes but there's peak ages and miles on the clock.
Djokovic has been top 3 now for nearly 8 years...He's played 850 matches, just 85 less than Nadal and yet remains spring chicken like...whatever the formula of his success and longevity is I want some!

Train 5-8 hours a day, eliminate dairy, eliminate gluten, don't drink alcohol, drink only room temperature water, stretch your body till your as flexible as gumby, and of course get yourself a CVAC apparently. That apparently is the formula for longevity and it isn't surprising that Novak has it due to the sheer obsessiveness of his holistic approach and discipline. He certainly is in the top 1 percent of  tour level tennis players in terms of discipline and work ethic.

Djoko win % on clay is a "full 30% higher" than Feds?   Are you sure about that?  

Feds career % on clay is 76.2 % and Djokovics 79.6.   I'm guessing you mean 3%.      

In terms of Djoko not drinking alcohol- One of his top sponsors is a wine company and features videos of Novak and his wife enjoying wine and talking about how important it is to them.  

Not that it means anything- just saying.

30 points on the 1000 point scale since they do the percentages on 3 digits in all those winning percentage stats should have been higher. As for drinking, the drinking Djokovic does is not drinking my friend. Getting paid to have a glass of wine or celebrating a slam with as he says one beer. From his own statements he basically has eliminated alcohol except for one beer or wine every now and again as a reward. He is at best what would be called a very light occasional drinker. Maybe in my own personal lexicon it counts for me as pretty much a non-drinker. Going by the statements he has made about alcohol in the past it sounds like he is a one drink or two drinks a month kind of guys, little more or less

You put a percentage sign next to the 30 so it reads 30%,  but even 30 on a 1000 scale is only 3%- which is the right amount.   At one time Feds % was higher of course- as he ages it has and prob will go down further.  Djokovics will too if he plays into his mid 30's.  I bet it will be fairly even when it's all said and done.  There is no doubt fed is more vulnerable against nadal on clay.  Just no way around it with the style, backhand difference, so I agree- even though against the rest of the field there is little difference-   Fed is more vunerable in winning the titles. At least in the past since nadal would be there.  

I hear you on the drinking- was just curious at the statement since I just saw those videos of him talking about wine.

Ruffin here is the problem with your analysis of the .790  win percentage of Djoko v. .762 of Federer. Yes typically like we have seen with Nadal players have higher win percentage when they are young or in the prime of their careers as they age the win percentage goes down. That is why you see the guy who usually leads these win percentage things (Borg) didn't play late in his career and get beat up as he aged. The problem here is that Novak's clay win percentage is bound to go up more before it comes back down. Novak Djokovic on Jan 1. of 2011 had a losing record against top ten players. Now he is among the top five and rising quickly with a bullet in win percentage against top ten all time. Last 52 weeks he has a .868 win percentage against top players and in the last 5 years he has lifted his career number up from a 47 percent roughly, win percentage at the start of 2011 to now a 67 percentage against top ten. Same thing is going on with Djoko's win percentage on clay last year he won 94 plus percent win percentage on clay versus a career 79 percent.  So in conclusion the win percentage numbers of Djoko on clay and against top ten, or just his total win percentage will of course come down at some point, if unlike Borg he plays on after his prime, which he indicates is likely. But WE DON'T KNOW HOW HIGH THEY WILL GO BEFORE THEY COME DOWN, so that will affect where he ends up.

Oh by the way you are wrong about 30 percentage points. If I said 30 percent better you would be right. Its like baseball my friend, you don't call a 300 hitter in baseball a 30 percent hitter although that is exactly what he is. Win loss percentage like Batting avg. in baseball is generally listed on thousand point scale in tennis. Your too nice of a fellow for me to always be right and you to be wrong in our disagreements over tennis details, I may have to purposefully make some wrong arguments and let you rebut because I like you to much too keep being right all the time. Check the AtP site, all win percentage is listed on thousandth scale, again if I say percentage point in that context its out of a thousand point scale. If I say percent plain and simple without qualifying word point, and not in the context of how the numbers of win percentage are usually talked about in tennis on the thousand point scale, then you would be right. But that is not the case.


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Post by TRuffin Wed 17 Feb 2016, 3:36 am

Lol, okay SoCal Wink

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