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3 caps or less. Overlooked, injured or just unlucky.

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 8:53 am

Having read a few best of teams,who are the players who you think should have got more international recognition.
Only criteria is 3 or less caps.
Professional era or armature.
Just for fun, and no fighting.


Last edited by carpet baboon on Thu 18 Feb 2016, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Damn Spell check)

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:11 am

Ian Humphreys. Zero senior caps. Yes he couldn't defend, but for 2 seasons he fantastic ball in hand should have been used more for ireland

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Post by Notch Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:13 am

Oooh this is going to be tough!

I'll try a team later. Before that let me just single out a few Irish players.

Ger Earls, Openside Flanker, Munster, 0 caps- Father of Keith Earls and part of the Munster team that beat Australia in 1992, and was called up for the Irish Trial that same year. Scored a try in each half of the trial match but was still not selected. Still considered perhaps the best player not to be capped by Ireland and it remains a controversial issue to this day (They say that Irishmen with Alzheimers forget everything but the grudges). Retired after being told by Declan Kidney at the onset of the professional era he would not be given a contract with Munster.

David Pollock, Openside Flanker, Ulster, 0 caps- was tipped as a future Ireland senior Captain and amongst the brightest prospects of his generation after Captaining Ireland U20s to a Grand Slam in 2007. Dogged by injury all through his short career and was forced to retire with hip problems aged 23. Went on to pursue a career in medicine.

Perhaps a slightly off-topic one as he has 4 caps not 3.

Ciaran Scally, Scrum-half, 4 caps, Leinster- Played with Brian O'Driscoll at Blackrock College and he played with the dirt trackers on the Ireland tour to Australia where BOD made his full test debut. First of many caps for BOD, but for a young man who was just slightly older it would be his last involvement with Ireland- soon after a routine physical check showed up permanent damage to his knee, so much so that he was told it wouldn't ever be able to stand up to professional rugby. Peter Stringer would later come in and dominate the scrum-half position for a long time but if Scally had the medical oversight that young Academy players and even schoolboy internationals do now, who knows? 4 caps by the time he was 20 years old shows he was rated quite highly.
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Post by beshocked Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:22 am

James Forrester - Gloucester Rugby.

I would say he was just very unlucky with injury. 2 caps for England but could have been more if not for that.

Was an excellent potential no 8 prospect.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:28 am

Nick Duncombe...

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:31 am

lostinwales wrote:Nick Duncombe...

Yes his mention on another thread is what prompted this one.

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:32 am

Nevin Spence

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:41 am

Don't think we want to get too morbid. Selectors can't do much about deaths or forced retirements.

If England had selected Sinbad when he came back from injuries, rather than "seeing how he goes for his club" then he'd have had a lot more caps. He still managed 10, though, which is the same number as Stuart Barnes.




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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:48 am

Ollie Smith - 5 caps in comparison to Jamie Noon who got 38.
Stefan Terblanche - 34 caps should have been 100.
Rene Ranger - 6 caps.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:54 am

I'm sure there will be a host of englishman wishing Tom Youngs qualified for the 3 caps or less category.

RUN!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 9:59 am

fa0019 wrote:I'm sure there will be a host of englishman wishing Tom Youngs qualified for the 3 caps or less category.

RUN!!!!!!!!!!

Thats why i set up a separate thread for the 3 caps and over how did that happen debate

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 10:44 am

Alex Grove, had 3 great games for Scotland and then disappeared into the wild.
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Post by carpet baboon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 11:06 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Alex Grove, had 3 great games for Scotland and then disappeared into the wild.

Big winger?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 11:24 am

Nah inside centre. and a good one at that. Instead we had guys like Morrison getting regular game time.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu 18 Feb 2016, 11:25 am

Gareth Maule being a centre was in a bit of a difficult position, as Wales have had a fair few reliable options in the position, as well as a number of younger prospects coming through the system..  He was the first choice in his position when Scott Williams was starting to come through, and at the time was unfortunate to be overlooked in Welsh training selection for Scott.  And then again he missed out in the game that will always be remembered as Martyn Williams 100 cap against the Baabaas for another young Scarlets collegue (who was behind him in the regional pecking order) as Aaron Warren was capped and Maule was overlooked.  Maule would definitely have served Wales well if he had been turned to as this clip shows https://youtu.be/3kOuNYBRm0g
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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 18 Feb 2016, 11:31 am

James Craig (winger) - ok, he had 4 caps, but was absolute lightening and never really recovered from being thrown to the wolves (Ben Tune and Joe Roff) on debut. He should have been a 50 cap winger for a Scotland team built on traditional Scottish foundations of fast paced, hard rucking, quick ball rugby. Instead we got Hodge, Laney, McLaren, Henderson, Southwell and Walker, and the rest is history.

Rory Kerr (winger/fullback) - same as James Craig, albeit with only 3 caps. He was a pacy winger at a time when Scottish rugby went into reverse. Literally years would pass without us scoring a try, and the likes of Kerr and Craig were tearing up the Sevens circuit instead.

A more recent player:

Ben Toolis (lock) - has just 1 cap but has been consistently strong for Edinburgh for two seasons now. Should have featured in the WC squad, especially with Gilchrist out, and should in my view be on the Scotland bench at the moment instead of Tiny Tim. Big, tall, athletic, good hands and a good solid Aussie accent. What's not to like?

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Post by MacKnocked-on Thu 18 Feb 2016, 11:46 am

If I recall back in the early 90s the Glasgow back row player Derek Busby was constantly unlucky not to get beyond Scotland B honours and recently of course Roddy Grant has missed out to players such as Ryan Wilson.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 18 Feb 2016, 12:02 pm

Roddy Grant is a good shout, especially when you consider that non-specialist options at 7 occupied that jersey for so long.

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Post by yappysnap Thu 18 Feb 2016, 12:29 pm

Joe Simpson

Christian Wade

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 18 Feb 2016, 12:38 pm

yappysnap wrote:Joe Simpson

Christian Wade

Agree with both of those, partcularly Wade. I appreciate that injuries have been a big factor, but he's the most exciting attacking winger in English rugby and the most natural finisher. The notion of Watson at 15, Joseph at 13 and Wade on the wing opens up huge possibilities for English rugby.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Thu 18 Feb 2016, 12:42 pm

Isa Nacewa - one cap for Fiji, could have had a quite a few for NZ had things worked out just a little differently.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 18 Feb 2016, 12:42 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Joe Simpson

Christian Wade

Agree with both of those, partcularly Wade. I appreciate that injuries have been a big factor, but he's the most exciting attacking winger in English rugby and the most natural finisher. The notion of Watson at 15, Joseph at 13 and Wade on the wing opens up huge possibilities for English rugby.

Potentially opens up huge gaps in the defence as well, especially with Simpsons poor kicking to large wingers on Wade's wing
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Post by Bathman_in_London Thu 18 Feb 2016, 1:57 pm

Fraser Waters- key to Wasps success but somehow Erinle and Noon got the call ahead of him.

Paul Volley- no idea how he didn't ever get a run out.

Alex King- unlucky to be behind wilkinson I guess. Far worse 10s have sacks of caps.

I always thought rene ranger was quality but I guess NZ have a few to choose from!

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Post by Bathman_in_London Thu 18 Feb 2016, 2:00 pm

Also Graham Dawe, unlucky to be behind Brian Moore. It's almost offensive that Hartley has so many more caps than him.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 2:01 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Don't think we want to get too morbid. Selectors can't do much about deaths or forced retirements.

If England had selected Sinbad when he came back from injuries, rather than "seeing how he goes for his club" then he'd have had a lot more caps. He still managed 10, though, which is the same number as Stuart Barnes.




He's my biggest gripe. One of the most talented players to grace the prem. And I firmly believe he would have done at international level...had he been given the chance.

Try scorer and creator...if he was a Kiwi the world would be going nuts over him.

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Post by Notch Thu 18 Feb 2016, 3:21 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Nevin Spence

Never forgotten
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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Feb 2016, 3:26 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Don't think we want to get too morbid. Selectors can't do much about deaths or forced retirements.

If England had selected Sinbad when he came back from injuries, rather than "seeing how he goes for his club" then he'd have had a lot more caps. He still managed 10, though, which is the same number as Stuart Barnes.




He's my biggest gripe. One of the most talented players to grace the prem. And I firmly believe he would have done at international level...had he been given the chance.

Try scorer and creator...if he was a Kiwi the world would be going nuts over him.

Mind you remember what happened pretty much every time his name came up in discussions on England team selections. It was uncanny.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Don't think we want to get too morbid. Selectors can't do much about deaths or forced retirements.

If England had selected Sinbad when he came back from injuries, rather than "seeing how he goes for his club" then he'd have had a lot more caps. He still managed 10, though, which is the same number as Stuart Barnes.




He's my biggest gripe. One of the most talented players to grace the prem. And I firmly believe he would have done at international level...had he been given the chance.

Try scorer and creator...if he was a Kiwi the world would be going nuts over him.

Mind you remember what happened pretty much every time his name came up in discussions on England team selections. It was uncanny.

During his peak it was either Cohen, Robinson & Lewsey or Robinson, Lewsey and Sackey..... those are pretty decent 3/4s. He suffered terribly from injuries and only moved to 13 later in his career right?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:16 pm

He did struggle with injuries it has to be said.

But in terms of ability I'd have him as even better than Robinson. The reason being he had far more actual creativity, whereas Robinson relied a lot on his pace over the first 40.

Cohen was the tank on one wing...

But JSD should have been one of Englands greatest ever. Big call I know...but I genuinely think without the injuries and a proper run in the side he would have been top class.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:22 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:He did struggle with injuries it has to be said.

But in terms of ability I'd have him as even better than Robinson. The reason being he had far more actual creativity, whereas Robinson relied a lot on his pace over the first 40.

Cohen was the tank on one wing...

But JSD should have been one of Englands greatest ever. Big call I know...but I genuinely think without the injuries and a proper run in the side he would have been top class.

Are you serious... better than Robinson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robinson's pace actually wasn't that great. He was fast but he wasn't a genuine sprinter, remember him being out sprinted by Elton Flatley... i mean there must have been a stack of cream cakes on the try line for that to have happened.

He had the best step in the game, second to none (well Lomu perhaps given he faster, taller, heavier)

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:34 pm

You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

Only in a rare England jersey I'm afraid. Club rugby is what is it though. If club rugby was the be all and end all Pierre Spies would have been the greatest eightman in recent memory.... and that's no exaggeration.

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Post by johnrgby Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:57 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Don't think we want to get too morbid. Selectors can't do much about deaths or forced retirements.

If England had selected Sinbad when he came back from injuries, rather than "seeing how he goes for his club" then he'd have had a lot more caps. He still managed 10, though, which is the same number as Stuart Barnes.



yes but Sinbad deserved them
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Post by Exiledinborders Thu 18 Feb 2016, 4:59 pm

fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:He did struggle with injuries it has to be said.

But in terms of ability I'd have him as even better than Robinson. The reason being he had far more actual creativity, whereas Robinson relied a lot on his pace over the first 40.

Cohen was the tank on one wing...

But JSD should have been one of Englands greatest ever. Big call I know...but I genuinely think without the injuries and a proper run in the side he would have been top class.

Are you serious... better than Robinson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robinson's pace actually wasn't that great. He was fast but he wasn't a genuine sprinter, remember him being out sprinted by Elton Flatley... i mean there must have been a stack of cream cakes on the try line for that to have happened.

He had the best step in the game, second to none (well Lomu perhaps given he faster, taller, heavier)
Sinbad had best step I have ever seen. As for Lomu I am not sure that going straight on through the defender really counts as a step.

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Post by Exiledinborders Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:00 pm

johnrgby wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Don't think we want to get too morbid. Selectors can't do much about deaths or forced retirements.

If England had selected Sinbad when he came back from injuries, rather than "seeing how he goes for his club" then he'd have had a lot more caps. He still managed 10, though, which is the same number as Stuart Barnes.



yes but Sinbad deserved them
Annoying as he is as a pundit he was a very good player.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:20 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:He did struggle with injuries it has to be said.

But in terms of ability I'd have him as even better than Robinson. The reason being he had far more actual creativity, whereas Robinson relied a lot on his pace over the first 40.

Cohen was the tank on one wing...

But JSD should have been one of Englands greatest ever. Big call I know...but I genuinely think without the injuries and a proper run in the side he would have been top class.

Are you serious... better than Robinson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robinson's pace actually wasn't that great. He was fast but he wasn't a genuine sprinter, remember him being out sprinted by Elton Flatley... i mean there must have been a stack of cream cakes on the try line for that to have happened.

He had the best step in the game, second to none (well Lomu perhaps given he faster, taller, heavier)
Sinbad had best step I have ever seen. As for Lomu I am not sure that going straight on through the defender really counts as a step.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shocked

did you ever see Lomu play? Or only the Pizza hut commerical when he trod over Catt. Lomu's step was about 5 metres wide.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:21 pm

fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

Only in a rare England jersey I'm afraid. Club rugby is what is it though. If club rugby was the be all and end all Pierre Spies would have been the greatest eightman in recent memory.... and that's no exaggeration.

JSD could comfortably have made the step up at international level. There's a great clip on youtube of JSD (playing for England vs the Baabaas) selling an exquisite dummy before gassing Lomu on the outside. A back three of JSD, Cohen and Robinson would have had a bit of everything.

On the subject of Robinson's pace, his top end speed wasn't great. Anything over 50m, people could catch him. Where Robinson came into his own was his acceleration. There can't have been many faster players over 10m.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:23 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

Only in a rare England jersey I'm afraid. Club rugby is what is it though. If club rugby was the be all and end all Pierre Spies would have been the greatest eightman in recent memory.... and that's no exaggeration.

JSD could comfortably have made the step up at international level. There's a great clip on youtube of JSD (playing for England vs the Baabaas) selling an exquisite dummy before gassing Lomu on the outside. A back three of JSD, Cohen and Robinson would have had a bit of everything.

On the subject of Robinson's pace, his top end speed wasn't great. Anything over 50m, people could catch him. Where Robinson came into his own was his acceleration. There can't have been many faster players over 10m.

Pretty certain that dummy was for England vs. NZ in 2002 at twickenham. About 5 seconds later he tripped over himself.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:26 pm

fa0019 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

Only in a rare England jersey I'm afraid. Club rugby is what is it though. If club rugby was the be all and end all Pierre Spies would have been the greatest eightman in recent memory.... and that's no exaggeration.

JSD could comfortably have made the step up at international level. There's a great clip on youtube of JSD (playing for England vs the Baabaas) selling an exquisite dummy before gassing Lomu on the outside. A back three of JSD, Cohen and Robinson would have had a bit of everything.

On the subject of Robinson's pace, his top end speed wasn't great. Anything over 50m, people could catch him. Where Robinson came into his own was his acceleration. There can't have been many faster players over 10m.

Pretty certain that dummy was for England vs. NZ in 2002 at twickenham. About 5 seconds later he tripped over himself.

Here you go...


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Post by BamBam Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:27 pm

fa0019 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

Only in a rare England jersey I'm afraid. Club rugby is what is it though. If club rugby was the be all and end all Pierre Spies would have been the greatest eightman in recent memory.... and that's no exaggeration.

JSD could comfortably have made the step up at international level. There's a great clip on youtube of JSD (playing for England vs the Baabaas) selling an exquisite dummy before gassing Lomu on the outside. A back three of JSD, Cohen and Robinson would have had a bit of everything.

On the subject of Robinson's pace, his top end speed wasn't great. Anything over 50m, people could catch him. Where Robinson came into his own was his acceleration. There can't have been many faster players over 10m.

Pretty certain that dummy was for England vs. NZ in 2002 at twickenham. About 5 seconds later he tripped over himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA7OKP9N06g

Very Happy

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Post by fa0019 Thu 18 Feb 2016, 5:32 pm

BamBam wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:You obviously never saw JSD play then FA.

Only in a rare England jersey I'm afraid. Club rugby is what is it though. If club rugby was the be all and end all Pierre Spies would have been the greatest eightman in recent memory.... and that's no exaggeration.

JSD could comfortably have made the step up at international level. There's a great clip on youtube of JSD (playing for England vs the Baabaas) selling an exquisite dummy before gassing Lomu on the outside. A back three of JSD, Cohen and Robinson would have had a bit of everything.

On the subject of Robinson's pace, his top end speed wasn't great. Anything over 50m, people could catch him. Where Robinson came into his own was his acceleration. There can't have been many faster players over 10m.

Pretty certain that dummy was for England vs. NZ in 2002 at twickenham. About 5 seconds later he tripped over himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA7OKP9N06g

Very Happy

good try!

Can't find the video of him in AI's that season.. did a similar move but did trip over himself.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

Fa why are you always quick to put down anything English...yet it's clear you have barely seen any of them play.

You jump to say JSD tripped like your looking for flaws.

Robinson is a genuine great of the game. As above said...his top end pace wasn't great. It was the first 10 where he smashed defences.

JSD had magic though and I just wish he'd really had a chance.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 18 Feb 2016, 10:53 pm

That Tequila Tone got just one cap when we had continual crisis at 12 is criminal.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 19 Feb 2016, 12:43 am

I had a look at Sinbad's career to try to understand why he'd been overlooked. Here's the old post:

https://www.606v2.com/t36708-simpson-daniel-for-the-lions#1648267


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Post by wrfc1980 Fri 19 Feb 2016, 8:49 am

Jason Robinson is arguably one of the best outside backs England have ever had and would be there or there about as one of the best the northern hemisphere have ever produced. It was pretty much impossible to scrag him first up so he always broke the gain line with at least a half break putting us on the front foot.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 19 Feb 2016, 8:55 am

Jason Robinson was a very, very good player - but sometimes I suspect he was a mythical creature whose exploits grow in every re-telling.

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Post by fa0019 Fri 19 Feb 2016, 9:28 am

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson was a very, very good player - but sometimes I suspect he was a mythical creature whose exploits grow in every re-telling.

The guy scored 30 test tries... and was first capped aged 27. That is an outstanding achievement given wingers tend to be most prolific in their youth. Had Robinson been in union from the start he would have broken all records.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 19 Feb 2016, 9:33 am

Ollie Smith only has 5 England caps. Given the dross England played during his pomp at Leicester, he really ought to have had more.

Stuart Abbott only won 9 England caps. I'd have had him down for more. Injury played a part in that.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 19 Feb 2016, 9:34 am

Tom Rees?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 19 Feb 2016, 9:38 am

Rugby Fan wrote:I had a look at Sinbad's career to try to understand why he'd been overlooked. Here's the old post:

https://www.606v2.com/t36708-simpson-daniel-for-the-lions#1648267


Great summary...shows his bad luck.

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