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Ireland Squad Discussion

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Post by Notch Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continuing on from Ireland Squad Announcement Thread.
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Post by SecretFly Fri May 27, 2016 2:25 pm

There's something about Gilroy that's putting me off recently.

Is it the hair? Did he do a bit of a half-hearted not-fully-committed Madigan on it recently? I was looking at him and I kept having a bad reaction when he was on the ball. I think it's the hair but.... I don't know.

So correct choice by Joe. You can't be having lads mucking with your brain as you try to watch rugby.

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Post by rodders Fri May 27, 2016 2:56 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Is it the hair?

Yes.

McCloskey's new barnet is definitely affecting his selection chances too.
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Post by Don Alfonso Sat May 28, 2016 8:35 pm

So the province that just won the Pro12 has the least representation on the international team.

Leinster looked dire out there today. No evidence of either players coming into form at the right time or any big game mentality, if you ask me.

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Post by SecretFly Sat May 28, 2016 9:16 pm

Leinster did look dire.  But then maybe that's how good Connacht have become - it's not an exact surprise that Leinster aren't great shakes this year or for the last few...but Glasgow got busted twice too.

You'd wonder about selections - yes.  But Leinster have nothing much coming through the middle, as I've said.  No guys ready to dominate that space.  Back foot all the time with very little belligerent go forward.  And then they lose the only 'bonus' they bring to a game these day - Toner's height.

Great win for Connacht.  Let's wait for South Africa before we start giving the results of the South African games.

Personally speaking - I've lost all faith in Rob Kearney.  Fitzgerald too has had his chances - he's much too chip'n'chop'n'wobble'n'fuss.  He can't play calm.  He needs to play calm but he just has proven again and again that he can't.  I think both have had their day.

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Post by eirebilly Sat May 28, 2016 9:28 pm

I think Connacht's win today is a bit of a smack in Schmidt's face if I may be honest. Hungry players playing with big match mentality left behind for his old dependable ones.

I am a broken record, I know, but Ireland are going backwards under Schmidt. The talent is there in Ireland but its going to take another coach to bring that out.
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Post by SecretFly Sat May 28, 2016 9:39 pm

Schmidt has no choice billy...sure don't the IRFU blazers pick his team for him................... OK Wink

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Post by eirebilly Sat May 28, 2016 9:43 pm

Apologist Fly Wink thumbsup
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Post by yappysnap Sat May 28, 2016 10:06 pm

How are you guys feeling about Andy Farrell? I assume he's with the squad now and we'll see what he brings this summer.

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Post by eirebilly Sat May 28, 2016 10:12 pm

Very much against it yappy, think he is a disruptive personality.
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Post by profitius Sat May 28, 2016 11:40 pm

Just another Schmidt Ireland selection. Whistle


yappysnap wrote:How are you guys feeling about Andy Farrell? I assume he's with the squad now and we'll see what he brings this summer.


Ireland need a different voice so he might be good.
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Post by SecretFly Sun May 29, 2016 9:31 am

It's much to early to form a feeling on Farrell other than to HOPE that he brings an aggressive edge to the mood of Irish players.  Murray has been hinting at his personality, saying he's a great guy and that he has this approach that makes you want to walk through walls for him.

Hmmm...that will be exactly what we need to be doing against those big South African lads with no oxygen in our lungs...... Wink

There has been something too timid about Ireland in recent years.  They've been too busy thinking about structures and strategies.  They need more blood and guts.  Maybe Farrell will get more fire into their bellies.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun May 29, 2016 11:11 am

SecretFly wrote:It's much to early to form a feeling on Farrell other than to HOPE that he brings an aggressive edge to the mood of Irish players.  Murray has been hinting at his personality, saying he's a great guy and that he has this approach that makes you want to walk through walls for him.

Hmmm...that will be exactly what we need to be doing against those big South African lads with no oxygen in our lungs...... Wink

There has been something too timid about Ireland in recent years.  They've been too busy thinking about structures and strategies.  They need more blood and guts.  Maybe Farrell will get more fire into their bellies.

Agreed, but I think there can be a very good balance there - look at Connacht. They are a well drilled team with a lot of variation to their game and each player able to fulfil multiple roles. However, they also play as if their lives depended on it and show a real fierce loyalty to the province, fans and teammates. This is something I used to heavily attribute to Munster.

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Post by yappysnap Sun May 29, 2016 11:53 am

Got to say that no matter his influence within the coaching team, he definitely brought a lot of passion and aggression to England in the first couple of seasons, we perhaps didn't have the right type of players at the time to capitalise on it. Ireland may do.

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Post by SecretFly Sun May 29, 2016 12:13 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It's much to early to form a feeling on Farrell other than to HOPE that he brings an aggressive edge to the mood of Irish players.  Murray has been hinting at his personality, saying he's a great guy and that he has this approach that makes you want to walk through walls for him.

Hmmm...that will be exactly what we need to be doing against those big South African lads with no oxygen in our lungs...... Wink

There has been something too timid about Ireland in recent years.  They've been too busy thinking about structures and strategies.  They need more blood and guts.  Maybe Farrell will get more fire into their bellies.

Agreed, but I think there can be a very good balance there - look at Connacht. They are a well drilled team with a lot of variation to their game and each player able to fulfil multiple roles. However, they also play as if their lives depended on it and show a real fierce loyalty to the province, fans and teammates. This is something I used to heavily attribute to Munster.

True.  Munster of old had the spirit - that touch of....well, how can you describe it any better than the Talismanic Munster man himself, 'manic aggression'.  They were like sharks.  They looked like they weren't even interested at times but if they smelled blood in the water, that fury would rise and they'd punish.

If anything Connacht are an improved version of Munster in that they don't seem to have that 'disinterested' swagger - they're always on and keyed into possibilities.  

Still - I don't think Ulster are far off being that kind of side themselves.  I have a feeling they'll be brutally tough next season.  

Leinster have fallen away off the pace but it wouldn't take much for them to reacquaint themselves with their past performance levels either.  They do need some new enforcer types to offer something mean up the middle.  With O'Brien and Healy sidelined so often now, they have probably least go-forward muscle of all four Provinces.

I think it's been a good weekend for Irish rugby though.  Connacht has hopefully joined the rest in a competitveness that will be stretched to a few more seasons at the very least. All Provinces though should probably expect a much tougher examination from Welsh sides next year.  I have my reservations about just how hard some of those guys have been pushing themselves this season.

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Post by JmD Sun May 29, 2016 12:48 pm

I can't help but notice that South Africa have named a squad full of youngsters and new faces. Seems like they're using this series as a chance to blood some new talent. Good thing Joe would never be so reckless, right guys? Here's to seeing negative, low risk, low reward rugby!

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Post by SecretFly Sun May 29, 2016 12:57 pm

They're going to do an 'Argentina' on us. They'll come from all angles, stretch us, spread us, separate us, slice us, run right through us. I ain't going to be pretty....

Rob will do us proud though. He's been practicing a lot recently on getting his lines of contact/impact just right for max-headaches.

Left, right, left, left, right.... shimmy, right! - BANG! - Impact!

Good stuff.

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Post by wolfball Mon May 30, 2016 6:22 am

JmD wrote:I can't help but notice that South Africa have named a squad full of youngsters and new faces. Seems like they're using this series as a chance to blood some new talent. Good thing Joe would never be so reckless, right guys? Here's to seeing negative, low risk, low reward rugby!

Did you even watch the 6 nations? Rolling Eyes

Anyways, I think our style of play will be pretty adventurous, similar to how we played in the most recent 6 nations. The problem is we are going to be smashed in the breakdown by SA, and so all the usual focus on our backs is pretty pointless. I think that 1-2 of the connacht back 3 can certainly feel aggrieved at not getting on the plane over the kearney's and I really hope they justify their selection. I think the series will go 1-2; We sneak the first win. We lost by 10. We get hammered in the final game. A failure, but as our record in SA is not exactly stellar, even 1 win is progress.

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Post by JmD Mon May 30, 2016 12:35 pm

Which 6 Nations were you watching exactly? Nobody in their right mind could describe Ireland's style as "adventurous". There was one good try (after Zebo decided "The System" isn't worth the paper it's written on), but aside from that it was all one pass, no offloads, take it to ground and repeat. Some of the most unadventurous performances I've ever had the misfortune of watching.

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Post by SecretFly Mon May 30, 2016 12:57 pm

JmD wrote:Which 6 Nations were you watching exactly? Nobody in their right mind could describe Ireland's style as "adventurous". There was one good try (after Zebo decided "The System" isn't worth the paper it's written on), but aside from that it was all one pass, no offloads, take it to ground and repeat. Some of the most unadventurous performances I've ever had the misfortune of watching.

Perhaps, but still two more tries than the Grand Slammers, which is also seven more tries than the year before when we won the competition.  

So it wasn't great and we won nothing but the least adventurous we've ever been?  Nah.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Mon May 30, 2016 2:52 pm

JmD wrote:Which 6 Nations were you watching exactly? Nobody in their right mind could describe Ireland's style as "adventurous". There was one good try (after Zebo decided "The System" isn't worth the paper it's written on), but aside from that it was all one pass, no offloads, take it to ground and repeat. Some of the most unadventurous performances I've ever had the misfortune of watching.

Are you sure you were watching the same games as the rest of us.How did you miss us running the ball in our own 22 regularly? How did you miss the fact that the box kick and chase went from a primary tactic to a use only when absolutely necessary one?How did you miss that it was only a malfunctioning scrum that cost us against Wales and France?
It seems like you didn't pay much attention if you missed the huge shift in style we made. Even the try you mentioned is a prime example, that was a team try that would not have been possible if everyone wasn't set up to play that way. The way you describe it,you make it sound like Zebo made it by himself. You obviously have a very selective memory.

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Post by JmD Mon May 30, 2016 3:34 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
JmD wrote:Which 6 Nations were you watching exactly? Nobody in their right mind could describe Ireland's style as "adventurous". There was one good try (after Zebo decided "The System" isn't worth the paper it's written on), but aside from that it was all one pass, no offloads, take it to ground and repeat. Some of the most unadventurous performances I've ever had the misfortune of watching.

Are you sure you were watching the same games as the rest of us.How did you miss us running the ball in our own 22 regularly? How did you miss the fact that the box kick and chase went from a primary tactic to a use only when absolutely necessary one?How did you miss that it was only a malfunctioning scrum that cost us against Wales and France?
It seems like you didn't pay much attention if you missed the huge shift in style we made. Even the try you mentioned is a prime example, that was a team try that would not have been possible if everyone wasn't set up to play that way. The way you describe it,you make it sound like Zebo made it by himself. You obviously have a very selective memory.

Adventurous rugby runs much deeper (no pun intended) than throwing the ball about in your own 22. If anyone cares to remember the matches honestly, they'll recall Ireland's back play consisted of shovelling the ball across the backs without any variation in running lines, pitiful counterattacks which seemed to seek out the first possible contact, and no consideration given to making an offload. This is a direct result of poor selection of players who aren't up to the standard (the Kearney brothers, McFadden, Henshaw as a 12, Payne as a 13) and a bad system which punishes players for taking any kind of risks (see the treatment of Stuart McCloskey during the 6 Nations).

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Post by marty2086 Mon May 30, 2016 3:50 pm

So inevitably Fitzgeralds got injured and Healy looks favourite to come in

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Post by theslosty Mon May 30, 2016 4:34 pm

At first glance Schmidt's squad does appear awfully conservative and rather strange in some places (Rooux and Reidy) but when you think it through in terms of which players are required for each position it starts to make a bit more sense. Roux and Reidy are slightly bizarre but it's unlikely they'll get gametime and apart from the mysterious omission of Tommy O'Donnell the alternatives weren't overwhelming (John Muldoon wouldn't have been undeserving but would only have been holding tackle bags).

There is some legitimate disgruntlement with the selection of the Kearney brothers which would have only increased after the Pro12 final. However, with Zebo unavailable and Payne being employed as a centre there is a lack of players who can cover full back. Some will say O'Halloran merited a seat on the plane but judging by Saturday's performance his aerial game needs improved to be capped under Schmidt. Matt Healy and Gilroy are desperately unlucky too but Schmidt probably has more faith employing Dave K as an emergency full back than either of them.

Luke Marshall ahead of McCloskey may seem a little strange as well but the former can cover 12 and 13 while I get the impression that McCloskey has a couple of rough edges which Schmidt doesn't like. Marshall has arguably been the better of the two in the last couple of months anyway. Olding is clearly being taken as a utility back.

Having said all of this, if McFadden is called up to replace Fitzgerald I would lose a lot of faith in Joe.
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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 6:27 am

JmD wrote:Which 6 Nations were you watching exactly? Nobody in their right mind could describe Ireland's style as "adventurous". There was one good try (after Zebo decided "The System" isn't worth the paper it's written on), but aside from that it was all one pass, no offloads, take it to ground and repeat. Some of the most unadventurous performances I've ever had the misfortune of watching.

I think that during the 6N, Schmidt did send the boys out to try and play a little more adventurously but he had selected the wrong players (and players in the wrong positions) to realise this.

It has not changed now, still a very conservative approach on some selections. I have often said that Schmidt is not the man to take Ireland further and I stand by that. Ireland will get crack covering wins but will never reach their potential under him.

Cotter is the man I wanted in charge.
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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 9:39 am

When did you want Cotter, billy? When Schmidt was being chosen?

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Post by rodders Tue May 31, 2016 10:07 am

eirebilly wrote:I think Connacht's win today is a bit of a smack in Schmidt's face if I may be honest. Hungry players playing with big match mentality left behind for his old dependable ones.

Have to agree billser... and boy did they make it, none more so than your boy O'Halloran showing Rob K a clean pair of heels.
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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 11:27 am

I said at the time when Kidney was in charge that I wanted Cotter Fly. Have always said Ireland got the wrong Clermont coach.
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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 11:28 am

rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I think Connacht's win today is a bit of a smack in Schmidt's face if I may be honest. Hungry players playing with big match mentality left behind for his old dependable ones.

Have to agree billser... and boy did they make it, none more so than your boy O'Halloran showing Rob K a clean pair of heels.

Its getting frustrating, all the excuses that have been used for not selecting certain players have been blown out of the water. What more do certain players have to do to get a look in?
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Post by rodders Tue May 31, 2016 11:30 am

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I think Connacht's win today is a bit of a smack in Schmidt's face if I may be honest. Hungry players playing with big match mentality left behind for his old dependable ones.

Have to agree billser... and boy did they make it, none more so than your boy O'Halloran showing Rob K a clean pair of heels.

Its getting frustrating, all the excuses that have been used for not selecting certain players have been blown out of the water. What more do certain players have to do to get a look in?

Be born in Aukland or Natal?
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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 11:32 am

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I think Connacht's win today is a bit of a smack in Schmidt's face if I may be honest. Hungry players playing with big match mentality left behind for his old dependable ones.

Have to agree billser... and boy did they make it, none more so than your boy O'Halloran showing Rob K a clean pair of heels.

Its getting frustrating, all the excuses that have been used for not selecting certain players have been blown out of the water. What more do certain players have to do to get a look in?




Play less intensely in Pro12?


Whistle

After all, the Leinster boys knew they needed to keep a lid on the excesses to be ready for South Africa... Wink

It's inverse thinking that's needed.


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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 11:33 am

Or play for Leinster?
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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 11:34 am

The Love for Leinster on these pages is humbling... Cool

Yis are all agin us!!!!


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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 11:37 am

I actually like Leinster, have some ties there (Gibbo knows) so no hatred towards them. I just feel Schmidt is far too reliant on players from there as he selects them over better players. Rob Kearney will have to retire from the game before Schmidt will drop him, no matter how out of form he is.
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Post by carpet baboon Tue May 31, 2016 11:40 am

I'm hoping this tour will be the final one for some players. Then the young hungry lads come in for the autumn.
Ideally Heenan yougn O'Brien the back 3 from Connaught will all get there chance at the start of next season.

On a side note jack Conan is he staying at Leinster?

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 11:41 am

Rob is needed for those important moments where he bamboozles the opponents by doing a quick shimmy before impact. They never know whether he's going to fall before he hits them or after he hits them.

Keeps 'em guessing. Uses up their brain energy. Class tactic.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 11:45 am

carpet baboon wrote:I'm hoping this  tour will be the final one for some players. Then the young hungry lads come in for the autumn.

AHA! A guy who thinks straight. Which are the more ominous opponents - the ones in a few weeks or the ones later down the line in Autumn? Gotta keep those young guys furious and frustrated... and hungry. They'll be chomping at the bit... They've proved their mettle over the season...now get a good pre-season in.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue May 31, 2016 11:46 am

eirebilly wrote:Or play for Leinster?

Lol,there were 5 Connacht players used in the 6N but you have to play for Leinster to get a chance laughing

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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 11:50 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Or play for Leinster?

Lol,there were 5 Connacht players used in the 6N but you have to play for Leinster to get a chance laughing

Do you actually understand what is being said or do you simply look for any supposed anti Leinster sentiments?

Even the most ardent Leinster fan must see that the selection of the Kearney brothers over certain in form players is poor?
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Post by rodders Tue May 31, 2016 11:55 am

Dave K is playing ok actually but Rob looks like a punchdrunk prize fighter - it is sad to see, his legs and confidence are shot.

I actually believe that one of the big reasons Leinster played so well at the RDS against Ulster, sandwiched between two shellackings is because Nacewa was at 15 rather than Kearney.
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Post by marty2086 Tue May 31, 2016 11:58 am

rodders wrote:Dave K is playing ok actually but Rob looks like a punchdrunk prize fighter - it is sad to see, his legs and confidence are shot.

I actually believe that one of the big reasons Leinster played so well at the RDS against Ulster, sandwiched between two shellackings is because Nacewa was at 15 rather than Kearney.

Not wrong there, Nacewa caused Ulster problems with some of the lines he ran from deep compared to Kearney just running

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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 11:59 am

Dave Kearney is just that rodders, he is ok. Healy and Gilroy are much better in my opinion and should have been touring to get experience.
Actually feel he could be turned into a decent 15 but that ship may have sailed.

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Post by carpet baboon Tue May 31, 2016 12:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I'm hoping this  tour will be the final one for some players. Then the young hungry lads come in for the autumn.

AHA!  A guy who thinks straight.  Which are the more ominous opponents - the ones in a few weeks or the ones later down the line in Autumn?  Gotta keep those young guys furious and frustrated... and hungry.  They'll be chomping at the bit...  They've proved their mettle over the season...now get a good pre-season in.

Dont get me wrong I wanted them in for THIS tour. So I'm choosing to live in eternal hope

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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 12:00 pm

I also hope that they stop trying to turn Zebo into a 15, he just doesn't cut it there in my opinion. Very good winger but also dropping behind Healy and Gilroy I feel.
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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 12:10 pm

Has Nacewa done his 20 years residency yet?

That qualifies him to forget his Fiji foray. Wink

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Post by theslosty Tue May 31, 2016 12:20 pm

Probably worth bearing in mind that dropping Rob Kearney would effectively finish his international career and hasten the end of his Leinster career. Not saying it's a valid reason to keep picking him but Joe is only human (we think).

I quite like Zebo at 15, he gets more space and more freedom to make plays and he's got the aerial ability and boot to play there. He wasn't very impressive on the wing under Joe.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Tue May 31, 2016 12:32 pm

eirebilly wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Or play for Leinster?

Lol,there were 5 Connacht players used in the 6N but you have to play for Leinster to get a chance laughing

Do you actually understand what is being said or do you simply look for any supposed anti Leinster sentiments?  

Even the most ardent Leinster fan must see that the selection of the Kearney brothers over certain in form players is poor?

Yeah I understand exactly what you said in that quote. It's fairly unambiguous.

As for the Kearney brothers, I think Dk is playing well but won't start while RK is playing poorly and is lucky there isn't much pressure from other fullbacks.
Payne had over 20 touches of the ball against Leinster and was anonymous except for allowing Sexton dictate the game through kicking. You never see an opposition outhalf do that when RK is playing even in poor form.ToH is playing well and I'd like to see him get a shot.

Final point as regards Schmidt's judgement, when Dillane got into the squad it was a surprise and nobody was calling for his inclusion. Schmidt saw that he was up to the standard needed and gave him his chance,maybe he looks at players like Gilroy, Heavy and ToH and sees something that makes him think they aren't good enough . Why you think you are a better judge of talent than he is astounds me.

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Post by eirebilly Tue May 31, 2016 12:47 pm

theslosty wrote:Probably worth bearing in mind that dropping Rob Kearney would effectively finish his international career and hasten the end of his Leinster career. Not saying it's a valid reason to keep picking him but Joe is only human (we think).

I quite like Zebo at 15, he gets more space and more freedom to make plays and he's got the aerial ability and boot to play there. He wasn't very impressive on the wing under Joe.

I do agree that he has more space and freedom but feel his defensive positioning is pretty poor and that to me makes him a bad option at 15. Much prefer he stayed on the wing.

Payne, to me, is probably the best 15 in Ireland right now, slightly ahead of Henshaw and TOH.
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Post by SecretFly Tue May 31, 2016 12:53 pm

Two wins and we'll all be the best of friends again. Wink

....won't we?????

Joe Still needs to give in his resignations papers?? Tough basterdes!

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Post by Pot Hale Tue May 31, 2016 3:41 pm

Well I see Schmidt provided some explanations for some of his picks that have been received badly in some quarters.

Roux was picked because the other locks in the squad are all loosehead locks, Roux is the only tighthead one.   And they like his size.    And they want to cap him.

Rob Kearney had some great games, and blaming him for the O'Halloran try is a bit strong since other players were out of position too, and there's only so much he could do.

He picked on test experience/performance as much as form, hence the inclusion of Trimble, Earls, D Kearney and Fitzgerald.   But one of the back three from Connacht was now in selection.  Zero, is apparently as well, but others say that Healy already has got the phone call.

O'Donnell is getting married so he wouldn't available for the whole tour.
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Post by JmD Tue May 31, 2016 4:50 pm

His attempts at rationalising are ridiculous. Roux isn't even the best "tighthead lock" in Connacht, never mind in Ireland. Don't even get me started on the "test performance" garbage. Has Joe watched any tests that Dave Kearney has played in this season? Did he have his eyes shut for the whole Argentina game?

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