Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

Sir Hairy Mallinder the once and future king.

kingelderfield wrote:I think it should be noted, as was the case with May, that Daly's inclusion should come with a health warning. He is very much a work in progress who maybe be found out at the highest level.

He possesses great pace however also exhibits, the often seen and poorly coached, habits of a player who has just run round or passed his age group opposition; poor spatial awareness and pass execution, added to this he has been shown up in the tackle.

So definitely a work in progress who I hope will really benefit from the exposure.

Finally please ignore the 'donkey kick'. He's often inaccurate and others are far more practiced if not quite as long. I'd far rather he focused his time on 'in play' performance than straining his hamy in an exercise in egotism.

Would be happy to see him on the bench covering 13 & wing, FB at a push, but not 12 where he has NO experience.

He'd be wasted at 12. But he is ready for international rugby - he's been playing far better than Joseph. And his long-range goal-kicking is a huge asset.

Well at this point I thought I ( as a slightly myopic Scotland fan ) would make a couple of points

Hartley as Captain - I said early on that it could be a great move or suicidal. so far its been good. No temper from Hartley and a few good captaincy touches - managing his players and the ref well. So thats a good call from Jones so far

Farrell at 12 - I still don't get it. its just not working for me. When england have such good outside backs they should get some decent ball - they don't. I have seen no clever moves in the backs, no space created by having two playmakers, just shovelling on Poopie. Where are the runarounds / loops, the dummy plays? The mixing it up?

Vunipola - can we outlaw him please? Its not fair on the rest of us! He doesn't do anything but run straight with the ball but he gets England go forward ball all the time and takes 3 guys out of the game. NO sidestep, nothing fancy but he is responsible for almost all the go forward england get. I think players of his width should be banned - how are you supposed to tackle him? You can't get your arms around him - even one leg is equal to two normal players!

Billy is class.

Itoje made a few carries that showed what he is capable and Haskell made a couple of big carries. If those two can increase their number of carries...ill be happy.

Imagine Hughes & Vuinipola in the same backrow

That would be scary

I was surprised that Eddie Jones took Owen Farrell off when Elliot Dailey came on. well done Eddie. Nice move.

majesticimperialman wrote:I was surprised that Eddie Jones took Owen Farrell off when Elliot Dailey came on. well done Eddie. Nice move.

Well Farrell Snr is no longer there to 'influence' the coach's decision making is he.

Eddie, Not sure what you see in Robshaw now. He looks slow and doesn't seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. He just goes through the motions, slowly. (I suppose we all do first thing in the morning).

majesticimperialman wrote:I was surprised that Eddie Jones took Owen Farrell off when Elliot Dailey came on. well done Eddie. Nice move.

I thought is was refreshing to see England bring on an experienced centre - in the centre. Rugby can so simple.

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I was surprised that Eddie Jones took Owen Farrell off when Elliot Dailey came on. well done Eddie. Nice move.

Well Farrell Snr is no longer there to 'influence' the coach's decision making is he.

No. We can now see that an independent coach picked Farrell to start all three games so any suggestion of bias by the previous management is rubbish.

englandglory4ever wrote:Eddie, Not sure what you see in Robshaw now. He looks slow and doesn't seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. He just goes through the motions, slowly. (I suppose we all do first thing in the morning).

There are those who are blind and those that will not see

lostinwales wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Eddie, Not sure what you see in Robshaw now. He looks slow and doesn't seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. He just goes through the motions, slowly. (I suppose we all do first thing in the morning).

There are those who are blind and those that will not see

You mean like Dirty Mike Brown?

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Eddie, Not sure what you see in Robshaw now. He looks slow and doesn't seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. He just goes through the motions, slowly. (I suppose we all do first thing in the morning).

There are those who are blind and those that will not see

You mean like Dirty Mike Brown?

Gwalad.

Mike Brown is not a dirty player.

Take no notice of the guy. He just trawls English threads looking for bites.

Majestic - Brown is a dirty player - no doubt at all. I didn't see this incident but he has a well deserved reputation for overly aggressive play and foul play. I don't think its deliberate usually - but he loses his temper and gets involved when he shouldn't and also makes cheap shots

Can anyone tell me when in the game this happened tho so I can see it?

TJ wrote:Can anyone tell me when in the game this happened tho so I can see it?

70:15 on the game clock is when the sequence starts, mate.

Thanks

Well I like Mike Brown and am very happy having him at FB .

I'm loving all the Celts getting hot and flustered because England have won a couple of games.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I like Mike Brown and am very happy having him at FB .

I'm loving all the Celts getting hot and flustered because England have won a couple of games.....

It's an amazing path of glory England have taken, i mean beating Italy AND Scotland, before really taking it to Irish using all 'means' necessary.

Stunning turnaround from being homespun favorites at the Tournament that, ahem, dare not speak its name.

Gwlad wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I like Mike Brown and am very happy having him at FB .

I'm loving all the Celts getting hot and flustered because England have won a couple of games.....

It's an amazing path of glory England have taken, i mean beating Italy AND Scotland, before really taking it to Irish using all 'means' necessary.

Stunning turnaround from being homespun favorites at the Tournament that, ahem, dare not speak its name.

Gwald

you are just sore because England beat Ireland and Wales could only manage a draw.

On the contrary...all ive seen from England fans is that we have a lot of work to do. Lots of errors.

All we've heard from the Celts...sorry the Welsh is that Scotland and Italy are poor, Ireland will be a proper test. Well regardless of performance etc we won...and lo behold....the Welsh are slamming it.

What a roar!

And we were never ever favorites for the RWC. We were favorites to get out of the group but obviously that didn't work out.

Still, mostly the same players that beat Wales in the last 2 6N but now with more canny coaching. We could well lose to Wales in 2 weeks time, because Wales are probably the best equipped of the other 6N teams to deal with the physical side of England's game and because they have a decent kicker to take advantage of all those stupid penalties. But for all the muscle and well organised defense they are still toothless in attack, and they are still playing rookie props against an increasingly dangerous English scrum

GLad is properly hacked off. He soooo wanted Ireland to beat England. He even put his score predictions up saying England 3 v 29 Ireland. Ha, ha, ha. How wrong was he. His all consuming hatred is not doing him any good whatsoever.

Sooo.... Manu will link up with England tomorrow before returning to play for the Tigers next weekend

nathan wrote:Sooo.... Manu will link up with England tomorrow before returning to play for the Tigers next weekend

Yup. Manu spending two days with England squad.

He's blatently going with Tuilagi at 12 isn't he?

Probably only on bench.

Ireland got the ball wide on a few occasions. It was a fairly successful tactic. England need to tighten up as it won't go un noticed by Wales. Its gonna be epic.

Eddie has a plan, even if its a samoan shaped smoke screen. He's got things right so far so we just have to trust him I guess

englandglory4ever wrote:Ireland got the ball wide on a few occasions.  It was a fairly successful tactic. England need to tighten up as it won't go un noticed by Wales.  Its gonna be epic.

But Wales never get the ball wide. Roberts can pass I know but seems under orders never to do so.

Manu still looks off the pace at current. His trademark power and physicality are still clearly undiminished thankfully, check out the hit on Cowan today for proof! He still needs to keep edging up his match fitness to do it consistently over the course of a game though.

It would be foolish to throw him onto the bench when he isn't ready for more than 20 minutes at most. Regaining full match fitness should be done gradually in club rugby not from the bench in a crunch 6 Nations game. Especially against a side as physical as Wales. So many guys now return to international rugby following a modicum of club game time after from injury and surprisingly enough they all tend to be injured again soon after.

That said I was thinking today, prior to Jones stating Manu may return to the squad, that I'd much prefer a 12 on the bench alongside Daly than a spare FB. If we have 21.Care 22.Daly 23.Goode then an injury to Farrell early means playing most the game with an inside centre who has practically never played there. I'd much rather Sam Hill on the bench rather than Goode, if Brown were injured then Watson could shift to FB with Joseph on the wing and Daly coming on at 13. That reshuffle is much preferable to a makeshift 12 I think.

I can't see it happening but I'd feel much safer about possible injuries with that bench.

Exiledinborders wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Ireland got the ball wide on a few occasions.  It was a fairly successful tactic. England need to tighten up as it won't go un noticed by Wales.  Its gonna be epic.

But Wales never get the ball wide. Roberts can pass I know but seems under orders never to do so.

True, we never do, except for when we ship it to Lloyd Williams via 5 passes through the hands and chip inside for davies to dab down under the posts

No, we Never get it wide.

TJ wrote:[Mike Brown] has a well deserved reputation for overly aggressive play and foul play...

This is something I've started to see a lot over the last year or so. I disagree, but I'm more interested in how on earth this idea has taken root.

What exactly did Mike Brown do before this weekend's incident to make people claim it sums him up as a player? He hasn't been red carded in a Test, and I'm not particularly aware of him drawing yellow cards. By contrast, I can remember specific times when Haskell, Care, Hartley and Farrell have all been carded, even before Saturday's sin bins.

I'd say Eddie is creaking under press pressure, pretty sure that the RFU will shortly be having a word in his shell like, this use of the word 'mate' after every sentence just isn't cricket mate.

That the best you can do? Pathetic.

Don't worry. He will recycle the "chariot" jokes that were so prescient for him this time last year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's blatantly going with Tuilagi at 12 isn't he?

Then who would be slotting in at 10?  

Farrell has been generally fine at 12, but is clearly out of position.  
Ford has been mediocre at 10 in the three 6 Nations matches so far, just like at Bath, so consistent performance for club and country.  

At this moment in time, I am not convinced we have the 10 spot locked-down for the future and wonder about our depth.

Rugby Fan wrote:

TJ wrote:[Mike Brown] has a well deserved reputation for overly aggressive play and foul play...

This is something I've started to see a lot over the last year or so. I disagree, but I'm more interested in how on earth this idea has taken root.

What exactly did Mike Brown do before this weekend's incident to make people claim it sums him up as a player? He hasn't been red carded in a Test, and I'm not particularly aware of him drawing yellow cards. By contrast, I can remember specific times when Haskell, Care, Hartley and Farrell have all been carded, even before Saturday's sin bins.

Plenty of incidents of him losing his temper and being petulant - running 50 m to push someone, scrapping for the ball after its out of play and numerous bits of foul play. His temper is obvious. Its all out there if you want to see it. Even the telegraph calls him " mr Angry"

TJ wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

TJ wrote:[Mike Brown] has a well deserved reputation for overly aggressive play and foul play...

This is something I've started to see a lot over the last year or so. I disagree, but I'm more interested in how on earth this idea has taken root.

What exactly did Mike Brown do before this weekend's incident to make people claim it sums him up as a player? He hasn't been red carded in a Test, and I'm not particularly aware of him drawing yellow cards. By contrast, I can remember specific times when Haskell, Care, Hartley and Farrell have all been carded, even before Saturday's sin bins.

Plenty of incidents of him losing his temper and being petulant - running 50 m to push someone, scrapping for the ball after its out of play and numerous bits of foul play.  His temper is obvious.  Its all out there if you want to see it.  Even the telegraph calls him " mr Angry"

I don't recall any specific incidents, but I think we can all agree to politely refer to Brown as an 'edgy' player.  He does seem to get over-excited (again polite).  No doubts.  I remember a match between Saints and Quins a few years ago where Saints players came off cursing Brown and his "'niggly off the ball bull(merde)".

On the other hand, and perhaps, because of it, he is fearless under high kicks.  That is a huge benefit to Harlequins and England.

Oh dear. Mr Angry is the worst thing they can throw at him. These so called rugby supporters are really fragile and infantile these days. We all have to be Mr Nicey. I love Brown for his competitive attitude. He makes me smile.

Numerous bits of foul play?

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's blatantly going with Tuilagi at 12 isn't he?

Then who would be slotting in at 10?  

Farrell has been generally fine at 12, but is clearly out of position.  
Ford has been mediocre at 10 in the three 6 Nations matches so far, just like at Bath, so consistent performance for club and country.  

At this moment in time, I am not convinced we have the 10 spot locked-down for the future and wonder about our depth.

Jones made it pretty clear he sees Ford as a developing player and one who he is going to invest the long term in. Farrell has continued to give away too many penalties tryingemulate Wilkinsons reputation for big tackles. Hes had a fair few yellows for a 10/12 over his england career and frankly has been lucky not to cop a ban at aome point. As its one area that England have struggled in over the games so far Id see him as highly unlikley to displace Ford, especially as his goal kicking hasnt been at its best.
If they do go with Tuillagi at 12, which Im not sure they will straight away (hes more liekly to get a bench spot to begin with), then I suspect he would also want someone witha bit more guile and who doesnt stand as deep as Farrell to give Tuillagi more opportunities to hit the line at pace.
Personally Im not a fan of Tuillagi at 12, although theres has been a lot of talk about him having improved his balkl handling skills hes never been best used as a battering ram and will never be a real footballer. His strength has always been combing powr and speed and attacking the oustide shoulder of the 13. Maybe hes lost a touch of his youthfull pace, and England have plenty of good attacking players available for 13 so the problematic 12 position is a way to shoehorn him into the team. Its fair to say that Jones does seem to remember him as the player who took apart the All Blacks a few years ago (at 13) and does seem to be itching to give get him back in the mix despite having guys like Devoto and Daly available in the centers.

doctor_grey wrote:

TJ wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

TJ wrote:[Mike Brown] has a well deserved reputation for overly aggressive play and foul play...

This is something I've started to see a lot over the last year or so. I disagree, but I'm more interested in how on earth this idea has taken root.

What exactly did Mike Brown do before this weekend's incident to make people claim it sums him up as a player? He hasn't been red carded in a Test, and I'm not particularly aware of him drawing yellow cards. By contrast, I can remember specific times when Haskell, Care, Hartley and Farrell have all been carded, even before Saturday's sin bins.

Plenty of incidents of him losing his temper and being petulant - running 50 m to push someone, scrapping for the ball after its out of play and numerous bits of foul play.  His temper is obvious.  Its all out there if you want to see it.  Even the telegraph calls him " mr Angry"

I don't recall any specific incidents, but I think we can all agree to politely refer to Brown as an 'edgy' player.  He does seem to get over-excited (again polite).  No doubts.  I remember a match between Saints and Quins a few years ago where Saints players came off cursing Brown and his "'niggly off the ball bull(merde)".  

On the other hand, and perhaps, because of it, he is fearless under high kicks.  That is a huge benefit to Harlequins and England.

Its a fair comment on his agressiveness, hes had a reputation since well before he played for England and there was at leats two incidents of handbags with him in the game at the weekend.
Its unfair to call him a dirty player though, and many sides actively encourage one or more players to "get in the face" of the opposition and rile them. The difference with Brown is that this does just seem to be his personality, and something he cant control. What you dont see from him though is actually throwing punches or taking genuinely cheap shots or committing many acts of blantant foul play. Just getting in silly arguments and maybe a bit of pushing and encouraging people to punch him.
I cant think of a lot of acts of serious foul play , cards or bans that hes had that would justify saying he has a repatation for foul play. The only thing I remember him getting in serious trouble for was kissing girls 8 years ago.

Its just Celtic noise. The volume always increases when England win a game.

Discipline is an issue which hasn't gone away.

Whatever you think of Brown, he's part of a group of players who need to sort out their discipline or risk being dropped.

I thought Brown was a fool but I thought the likes of Farrell and Haskell were stupid too.

Need to cut out the needless penalties. I can understand a penalty more if someone is going for the turnover but the likes of high tackles,trips, neck rolls, pushes are just silly.

I think the reason why we see these penalties time and again because they just aren't very intelligent.

What discipline problems has Brown had?

Well there was this incident where Brown started kicking one of the opposition in the face....

He's known as Mr Angry for a reason.

Just needs to settle down a bit.

OK, so no real examples of it being a persistent problem.