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Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

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Post by munkian Mon 22 Feb 2016, 4:27 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:When thinking about the England team I like to ask the question "Who would be best to face South Africa or New Zealand?" As far as Hookers go it would be Hartley. It may turn out to be George at some time in the future but right now its Hartley by a street.

And Aus ? Whistle
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Post by BamBam Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:04 am

Apparently, Manu Tuilagi is definitely not a 13, he's a 12

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12169412/Manu-Tuilagi-set-to-to-return-to-England-side-for-Wales-game.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:43 am

From the same article (talking about Burrell, but transferable to Manu)

“We’ve got a fairly simple attack plan. All he has got to do is do what a 12 does – run hard, pass when the option is there and tackle hard. And he can learn that quickly.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:47 am

Basically Manu can catch and carry......we can teach him how to pass and kick!

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:01 am

The actual quote about Manu was:

“But he’s got the ability to catch and pass. I haven’t seen him kick but there’s no reason he can’t learn to kick. We have a reasonable kicking mentor here. He’s got all the attributes to be an outstanding 12.”

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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:19 am

Out of interest, does anyone know why EJ is saying that Manu is suddenly definitely a 12 and not a 13? Pretty sure during the SL time we all unanimously agreed that he was definitely a 13, not a 12.

What's changed? And what's the real difference here?

I always thought your 12 was meant to be a fly half in a bigger body, a more capable defender, and a great distributor to get the rest of the backs in play. Am I wrong here? Because that doesn't really sounds like Manu at the moment....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:23 am

So they want him to be the next Ma Nonu....

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:31 am

EddieV - based on his quotes seems that Jones views Nonu and Roberts as the ideal 12s rather than the Giteau type.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:33 am

Saints (and Burrell) have improved massively since moving Burrell to 13 with someone who can pass and kick inside (Mallinder). He's not a 12. 12s need good hands and distribution not just carrying. Seems like a case of trying to get our best players on the field, and lets forget balance.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:44 am

I guess it can work if the 9 and 10 take more responsibility for playmaking

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Post by beshocked Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:49 am

Scottrf I think it just depends what you want from your 12 or 13.

I've always thought Burrell looked much more comfortable for England at 13 rather than 12.

Ultimately centres is about a balancing act just like every other combination.

Need a balance of brains and brawn. Someone needs to take the leadership mantle.

Conrad Smith and BOD were 13s but both were leaders in their team, more so than their 12 counterparts. The brains of the operation.

Who is going to take that role for England? At the moment I don't see anyone who could fill it. Perhaps Slade in the future maybe?

England have centres with raw power and fast feet but as for vision and leadership, not convinced as of yet.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:08 am

It's about how many options your centres have and so how easy they are to defend. If you don't have the kicking option or a reliable offload option the defence knows what's coming. And the ball doesn't get out to the wings enough.

It worries me that Jones is considering Burrell as a 12. He seems to think he's improved because Jones told him certain things to work on. Certainly not the reason.

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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:10 am

So it's more a matter of how the coach wants his 12 to play, rather than there being prototypical qualities for an international 12?

If Manu could develop the all round game, he'd be a wonderful compliment to someone like Joseph or Daly at 13.

As you can probably guess, I was never a back.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:16 am

LondonTiger wrote:EddieV - based on his quotes seems that Jones views Nonu and Roberts as the ideal 12s rather than the Giteau type.
Yes, Jones is just saying Tuilagi isn't the style of player to suit how he wants a 13 to play. There are clearly game plans where Tuilagi is fine at 13.

If Manu does get back to top form, and comes into consideration for the Lions, I wonder where that coach will think of playing him.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:28 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:EddieV - based on his quotes seems that Jones views Nonu and Roberts as the ideal 12s rather than the Giteau type.
Yes,  Jones is just saying Tuilagi isn't the style of player to suit how he wants a 13 to play. There are clearly game plans where Tuilagi is fine at 13.

If Manu does get back to top form, and comes into consideration for the Lions, I wonder where that coach will think of playing him.

I think - based on his selections so far - Eddie is looking to build squads where he has both a Nonu-style 12 and a Giteau-style 2nd 5/8ths in the XXIII. He's played Farrell (who's much closer to the latter than the former) at 12 in his games so far and has overlooked Daly (who's a 13/15) in favour of Devoto (who is in the ball-playing 12 model). The speculation has also been consistent that he plans to play Slade at 12 - though it's useful that he can play both 12 and 13 (and 10).

The grand plan is probably to be able to use both styles of 12 over the course of the game to change the game plan and tear teams apart in the fina quarter. We've seen how he likes to use his subs to change the tempo and swapping Slade for Manu or vice versa forces tiring defences to adapt to something completely different.

Ironically, Lancaster may have been trying something similar in starting with Burgess and then subbing him off. Except it didn't work - probably because the motive was different: Lancaster was looking to close games out; Eddie seems to be looking to kill the opposition off. With hindsight, it's club level thinking vs international level thinking.
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Post by beshocked Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:30 am

lostinwales in the best side in the world NZ, it's not the 9 and 10 who take all the responsibilities, surely we should learn from them?

bluestonevedder in that situation who would be the leader in the centres?

England need leaders that's clear to see. It's why I want to see more from the likes of Clifford,George and Itoje too. I think they can help be part of a core leadership in the forwards.

Someone has to step up in the leadership area in the centres.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:51 am

As always England have some nice options to choose from but blending the optimal combination has thus far eluded them.

For what it's worth I'm an attack-minded rugby fan and firmly believe that the way forward for England is to play a high tempo game with a backline stacked with attacking players. Every member of the backline needs to present a genuine threat with ball in hand, be it through pace, footwork or brute strength.

This would be where I would be heading:

9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Watson

21.Simpson 22.Slade 23.Nowell

I hear the bores already telling me that it isn't defensively robust, and we should pick players who are better tacklers and kickers. That "leadership" would be an issue, and more "generals" required to build exactly the sort of mundane tosh that has seen England slip rapidly from being the team to beat to the first hosts to choke out in the group stages of the World Cup, and a rare generation of England players unable to secure regular 6/5 Nations success.

I think there has been a serious lack of boldness in the England team selections in recent years, particularly in the backs. It's all just been a bit drab, with the odd splash of colour provided by Joseph, May and Watson.

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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:31 am

beshocked wrote:lostinwales in the best side in the world NZ, it's not the 9 and 10 who take all the responsibilities, surely we should learn from them?

bluestonevedder in that situation who would be the leader in the centres?

England need leaders that's clear to see. It's why I want to see more from the likes of Clifford,George and Itoje too. I think they can help be part of a core leadership in the forwards.

Someone has to step up in the leadership area in the centres.

I would take a guess at Joseph. He's an exceptionally intelligent rugby player.

But why has there got to be a leader in the centres specifically? Can't think of too many teams that have leaders in the centres other than probably Conrad Smith for NZ, Giteau for Oz, JDV for SA...? Yes, it doesn't help my case that that's the top 3 teams in the world, but I don't think it's a necessity.


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Post by RubyGuby Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:35 am

Jamie Roberts is a bit of a Leader - He plays in the centre for Wales thumbsup

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Post by lostinwales Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:41 am

beshocked wrote:lostinwales in the best side in the world NZ, it's not the 9 and 10 who take all the responsibilities, surely we should learn from them?

bluestonevedder in that situation who would be the leader in the centres?

England need leaders that's clear to see. It's why I want to see more from the likes of Clifford,George and Itoje too. I think they can help be part of a core leadership in the forwards.

Someone has to step up in the leadership area in the centres.

Of course we should learn from NZ but that doesn't mean we should slavishly copy them

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:44 am

Demanding a "leader" in the centres. Hmm. Is that a backdoor push for Brad Barritt?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 23 Feb 2016, 12:01 pm

A recall for Brad Barritt would be a very Martin Johnson selection.

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Post by beshocked Tue 23 Feb 2016, 12:16 pm

FES I think there's a lack of brainpower in that backline. To be honest I think there's a lack of brainpower in the current England side. There needs to be someone whose the brains of the operation. I see far too many players who I think have the pace,athleticism but not the overall vision needed.

You say you want to see a more attacking England I do too and I think it's the forwards who need to be at the forefront. The likes of Clifford,George and Itoje.

Forwards doing pop passes, offloads etc, linking up with the backs.

We've seen a glimmer of this in the first two games - from the Vunipola bros and George.

NZ are masters of linking backs and forwards. Good to see some England players showing some of these skills.

lostinwales not suggesting we slavishly copy them, England have to forge their own path but learning from the best is no bad thing.

Londontiger no not really. Brad Barritt did not have a good RWC. Might have been down to not fully fit but irregardless England need to move on from him unless Barritt can somehow become more creative like he used to be in SA. As yet haven't seen that.

He is a leader but doesn't mean he's the solution for England. He's not creative enough or enough of an attacking threat.

bluestonevedder if the best teams have it I think it shows the necessity.

Don't think Joseph has shown he's a leader as of yet - attacking weapon when his pack are on top yes but in adversity - not yet.

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 23 Feb 2016, 12:18 pm

Tuilagi will provide the brains next month thumbsup

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:40 pm

Beshocked - you can't pick what you don't have. Obviously if England had a Mike Catt or a Will Greenwood then selection would be rather simple. Joseph is the best attacking centre England have had for a long time. His selection is a no brainer. The next question is 12. I think we can both agree that Farrell is not the solution there. Slade might be, but I like him on the bench as an option to change the game. I think Tuilagi should be tried at 12. He's England most destructive ball carrier and, with players like Ford and Joseph around him, capable of being used in more subtle ways than simply crash ball. England would have a Plan B as well - get Slade on a 12 and you can decide whether to push Tuilagi to 13 (and potentially Joseph to the wing), or have Joseph and Slade as the new combination.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:05 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Tuilagi will provide the brains next month thumbsup

whose?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:08 pm

lostinwales wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:Tuilagi will provide the brains next month thumbsup

whose?

Well not Cuthbert or Liam Williams as those went missing a long time ago.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:11 pm

Must admit I am almost as excited about the possible selection of Cuthburt in the Eng/Wal game as a few Welsh posters are about us picking Tuilagi

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:16 pm

We will be told about 2013 over and over again till it gets quite dull.

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:22 pm

It did cross my mind Tiger but it was a bit too easy. Cuthbert does have a first class degree though unlike Liam who has a diploma in dumper driving thumbsup

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Post by munkian Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:We will be told about 2013 2003 over and over again till it gets quite dull.
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:31 pm

munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:We will be told about 2013 2003 over and over again till it gets quite dull.



true, only so many times people can tell us that Wales would have won the 1/4 final but for Mike Catt. Run

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Post by bluestonevedder Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:53 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Jamie Roberts is a bit of a Leader - He plays in the centre for Wales thumbsup

That's true. Apologies Ruby- I listed NZ and the other countries just rolled off the tongue.

I tend to forget about Roberts because I hate him so much. Professional rugby player, doctor, 6'4, well-off, can play guitar....

...doesn't that make you hate him?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 3:00 pm

ah but when you watch Doc play - it is easy at times to forget he is a bright lad. After all when things do not work out - he just keeps doing the same thing again.

(Admittedly does it well and is who Jones is trying to replicate with talk of Manu at 12)

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Post by Hoonercat Tue 23 Feb 2016, 4:14 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:Jamie Roberts is a bit of a Leader - He plays in the centre for Wales thumbsup

That's true. Apologies Ruby- I listed NZ and the other countries just rolled off the tongue.

I tend to forget about Roberts because I hate him so much. Professional rugby player, doctor, 6'4, well-off, can play guitar....

...doesn't that make you hate him?

Yes but is he happy, hmmm?




He is, isn't he... mad
He actually comes across as a really nice, genuine person. Not a hint of a Welsh accent either laughing

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Post by RubyGuby Tue 23 Feb 2016, 4:28 pm

Not a hint of a Welsh accent either - I think you need to listen to him a bit closer. The funny thing is the Vunipolos welsh accents, listening to them makes me laugh, they have valley accents. If you can get the economic conscriptions get them on board.

I always like it when people point out that a welsh person doesn't have a welsh accent - what's that all about?

thumbsup

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 23 Feb 2016, 5:31 pm

Billy Vuinipola doesn't have a Welsh accent.

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Post by gog1992 Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:54 pm

Yes he does open your ears.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:19 pm

gog1992 wrote:Yes he does open your ears.

Billy unlike Mako moved to England when he was 15 & if he does have any welsh accent it may take a welsh person to detect it.

From the Express,

'Growing up in Pontypool, the brothers’ tough-love father Fe’ao, a Tongan international who played for the local club, sent them on runs up The Grotto, the 700ft hill employed by Ray Prosser to turn Ponty into the fittest side in Wales in the Seventies. But Vunipola moved across the border to complete his education and, unlike his elder brother, shed his Welsh accent. Having outgrown junior rugby, he made his men’s debut clandestinely at 15 for Burnham-on-Sea.'


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Post by LondonTiger Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:40 pm

whenever I hear BillyV speak he sounds like a posh boy trying to all London Ghetto.

Remind me where he went to 6th form Very Happy

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:44 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - you can't pick what you don't have. Obviously if England had a Mike Catt or a Will Greenwood then selection would be rather simple. Joseph is the best attacking centre England have had for a long time. His selection is a no brainer. The next question is 12. I think we can both agree that Farrell is not the solution there. Slade might be, but I like him on the bench as an option to change the game. I think Tuilagi should be tried at 12. He's England most destructive ball carrier and, with players like Ford and Joseph around him, capable of being used in more subtle ways than simply crash ball. England would have a Plan B as well - get Slade on a 12 and you can decide whether to push Tuilagi to 13 (and potentially Joseph to the wing), or have Joseph and Slade as the new combination.

I thought we had in Harry Malinder.... his name is cropping up everywhere I look...he appears to have taken over from Itoje as the new wonder boy...

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Post by nathan Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:48 pm

i always think i can hear a Leicester accent with Manu, is that just me or is there a Lester (well Inkley) twang there?

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Post by king_carlos Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:55 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - you can't pick what you don't have. Obviously if England had a Mike Catt or a Will Greenwood then selection would be rather simple. Joseph is the best attacking centre England have had for a long time. His selection is a no brainer. The next question is 12. I think we can both agree that Farrell is not the solution there. Slade might be, but I like him on the bench as an option to change the game. I think Tuilagi should be tried at 12. He's England most destructive ball carrier and, with players like Ford and Joseph around him, capable of being used in more subtle ways than simply crash ball. England would have a Plan B as well - get Slade on a 12 and you can decide whether to push Tuilagi to 13 (and potentially Joseph to the wing), or have Joseph and Slade as the new combination.

I thought we had in Harry Malinder.... his name is cropping up everywhere I look...he appears to have taken over from Itoje as the new wonder boy...

I thought the Saints centre we were all meant to fawning over was Tom Stephenson... Wink

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:59 pm

Now that's a player King!! Very Happy

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:10 am

Billy V sounds as Welsh as Tom Francis, the Englishman.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:06 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - you can't pick what you don't have. Obviously if England had a Mike Catt or a Will Greenwood then selection would be rather simple. Joseph is the best attacking centre England have had for a long time. His selection is a no brainer. The next question is 12. I think we can both agree that Farrell is not the solution there. Slade might be, but I like him on the bench as an option to change the game. I think Tuilagi should be tried at 12. He's England most destructive ball carrier and, with players like Ford and Joseph around him, capable of being used in more subtle ways than simply crash ball. England would have a Plan B as well - get Slade on a 12 and you can decide whether to push Tuilagi to 13 (and potentially Joseph to the wing), or have Joseph and Slade as the new combination.

I thought we had in Harry Malinder.... his name is cropping up everywhere I look...he appears to have taken over from Itoje as the new wonder boy...
Prince Harry (future England and Lions captain) is doing quite nicely at Saints. No need to rush the lad into the big boy team quite yet.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 24 Feb 2016, 6:54 am

Mallinder was bloody awful against us at the weekend, as was Burrell for that matter.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:05 am

To be fair Pooly these last few weeks a lot of players seem to have come to yours and been made to look Poopie.

Up until then both were playing well but it's far too early for Mallinder, far far too early.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:20 am

It certainly looked an off day Yappy as he's looked decent in previous games. Agree though, it's way way too early.

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Post by kingelderfield Wed 24 Feb 2016, 7:25 am

I think it should be noted, as was the case with May, that Daly's inclusion should come with a health warning. He is very much a work in progress who maybe be found out at the highest level.

He possesses great pace however also exhibits, the often seen and poorly coached, habits of a player who has just run round or passed his age group opposition; poor spatial awareness and pass execution, added to this he has been shown up in the tackle.

So definitely a work in progress who I hope will really benefit from the exposure.

Finally please ignore the 'donkey kick'. He's often inaccurate and others are far more practiced if not quite as long. I'd far rather he focused his time on 'in play' performance than straining his hamy in an exercise in egotism.

Would be happy to see him on the bench covering 13 & wing, FB at a push, but not 12 where he has NO experience.

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