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Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 15 Feb 2016, 1:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:49 pm

Happy to agree to disagree, and I certainly wouldn't drop Watson. He is scintillating. Only question is whether he'd add an extra dimention to the 15 jersey that Brown, for all his passion and solidity, cannot.

With respect to Nowell, he had a decent enough tournament, but his performance in the last game was dreadful. For a winger who is principally picked to be solid, he was all over the place. I don't think he's a bad player, in fact he's perfectly adequate. Wouldn't get anywhere near the sides who made the World Cup Semi-Final mind you and I don't see how he's going to dramatically improve, unless Margot Wells can make him much faster. He sort of reminds me of Mark Cueto, John Bentley and David Rees. The sort of club winger who does everything to a good standard, makes a solid international winger, and then you see what the SH sides have and are forced to reach the conclusion that your man is merely a holding operation waiting for someone better to come along.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:52 pm

I think May's defence is at least as good as Watson (but I'd add that it was a weakness for Watson that probably isn't there any more). As for attack then yes he has dropped the ball a couple of times which always makes wingers look like idiots. He has also made tries for others. Cipriani's try in 2015 was all down to May.

And you have said 'potential' well I'd say running around the NZ team to score a try counts for that. And yes I absolutely agree that a try is 5 points however it is scored - but if you find a new way to score one it tends to concentrate other team's thoughts about how to defend against it happening again. And making the other team have to think about new things is always a good thing.

I know AP form doesn't count too much but I'd guess that if you were looking at a list of most spectacular tries scored in the AP in the last 4 years then two names would turn up more than any other - Wade and May.

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Post by beshocked Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:10 pm

Sgt Pooly only been banging on about it because you steadfastly refuse to show humility.


no 7 & 1/2 I don't understand what you are finding so hard to grasp.

Morgan was poor in the RWC. Is that so hard for you to swallow? Frankly I don't care if he was good in 2014. Needs to prove himself again. He's not a very good player NOW, he's well down the no 8 pecking order.

Hookers strong enough? If RWC failure is your idea of strong enough then yes you are correct....

FES Nowell was dreadful in the last game agreed but I think he's much more reliable than May. He's not going to be on the highlights reel but since a relatively poor 2014 6 nations I think he's been much improved in general.

Sure I would have liked Nowell to have buried the nightmares of 2014 with a strong performance vs France but his poor performance was not costly this year.

You talk about waiting for someone better to come along, there's no one that warrants taking Nowell's place.


lostinwales highlights reels doesn't necessarily equal effectiveness. Beat 1 defender or 10 defenders to score a try. Still worth 5 points.

If May did it regularly at international level then it would be fair enough but he hasn't.

A winger whose strike rate is much worse than his rivals isn't worth picking surely?

I think he's a bit like 36, should have the tools but a bit overhyped, doesn't do what says on the tin. He's got the pace, should be finishing and scoring more tries.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:26 pm

Refuse to show humility? What are you going on about??

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Post by beshocked Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:39 pm

Sgt Pooly never mind. It won't happen. As unlikely as No 7 & 1/2 admitting he's wrong.

Going around in circles.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:42 pm

When have I said Morgan was good in the wc beshocked? Think you need to stop inventing points of view for other people.

Hookers didn't look out of place to me tbh in the wc. Bar the scrum in Aus set piece was good on the whole. What looked like a potential big weakness wasn't.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 4:44 pm

And like I said show me where I've been wrong and haven't held my hands up.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 01 Apr 2016, 5:35 pm

beshocked wrote:FES Nowell was dreadful in the last game agreed but I think he's much more reliable than May. He's not going to be on the highlights reel but since a relatively poor 2014 6 nations I think he's been much improved in general.

Sure I would have liked Nowell to have buried the nightmares of 2014 with a strong performance vs France but his poor performance was not costly this year.

You talk about waiting for someone better to come along, there's no one that warrants taking Nowell's place.

I think this is my problem. I'd accept he's a decent enough player, and in terms of form he probably is the correct choice at the moment. I just think there's a ceiling on his abilities that bothers me, whereas I believe that May and Wade are capable of more.

It's a bit like why successive England coaches have turned to Tom Youngs. He's more often than not "deserved" his place based on form for club and, at times, country. But a number of us have continually said that there are fundamental issues with his game that cannot be resolved without making him bigger. Not a bad player at all, but it's just whether he's the right man to take England to where they should aim to go. number one in the world and world champions.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 01 Apr 2016, 6:40 pm

Rolling Eyes

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 03 Apr 2016, 4:00 am

If you are wondering which Aviva match Eddie Jones was watching yesterday, the answer is none of them. He was a surprise guest speaker in Japan yesterday, at the 150th anniversary of the Yokohama Country & Athletic Club, the oldest rugby club in Asia.

https://twitter.com/FreemanrugbyJPN/status/716274995781980162

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Post by yappysnap Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:52 am

Definitely got out done in the tie stakes there.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
beshocked wrote:FES Nowell was dreadful in the last game agreed but I think he's much more reliable than May. He's not going to be on the highlights reel but since a relatively poor 2014 6 nations I think he's been much improved in general.

Sure I would have liked Nowell to have buried the nightmares of 2014 with a strong performance vs France but his poor performance was not costly this year.

You talk about waiting for someone better to come along, there's no one that warrants taking Nowell's place.

I think this is my problem. I'd accept he's a decent enough player, and in terms of form he probably is the correct choice at the moment. I just think there's a ceiling on his abilities that bothers me, whereas I believe that May and Wade are capable of more.

It's a bit like why successive England coaches have turned to Tom Youngs. He's more often than not "deserved" his place based on form for club and, at times, country. But a number of us have continually said that there are fundamental issues with his game that cannot be resolved without making him bigger. Not a bad player at all, but it's just whether he's the right man to take England to where they should aim to go. number one in the world and world champions.

Like Neil Back you mean?

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Post by yappysnap Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:18 am

Man haven't heard that Neil Back reference before.

Back, with his skillset and the team around him may be the exception rather then the rule.

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Post by beshocked Mon 04 Apr 2016, 11:33 am

FES I would put Haskell in that category too. In the end I think he did a fine job for England at blindside but I don't think he'll ever be world class.

Perhaps Nowell won't become world class but he's only 22, soon to be 23, younger than May who is 26.

Of course age doesn't necessarily make someone worse or better but I think a player generally gets better with age with their prime being 26-30 but of course there are exceptions.

Some of the top backrowers in the AP at the moment - Easter,Waldrom and Smith are 30+. Though then again that's AP level.


Wing isn't exactly the strongest England position, you would think by now May or Wade would have done more.

Both have great pace but IMO it's simply not enough.

I know there is a school of thought that it's preferable to pick players with a bit of X factor to keep the opposition on their toes but these players need consistency too.

For Leicester on the weekend, Manu did the basics well, it's what you need from a player, don't necessarily need to beat 5 defenders or be heavily involved in a highlights reel. He kept the defence honest and the gaps opened.

I was more impressed by his distribution than his power. We know he's a powerful man but if he can do the offloads and make the passes stick then he'll be a dangerous asset for England. It's an area I've always thought was a bit suspect.

As for Tom Youngs, sadly he's just too small. The game's moved on since Neil Back, everyone's bigger, harder collisions.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Apr 2016, 1:54 pm

Haskell played on the openside.

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Post by beshocked Mon 04 Apr 2016, 2:36 pm

Fair point, he did wear the 7 shirt. I was thinking of 2015. Robshaw and Haskell swapped positions in 2016. Neither being true opensides.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 2:55 pm

beshocked wrote: For Leicester on the weekend, Manu did the basics well, it's what you need from a player, don't necessarily need to beat 5 defenders or be heavily involved in a highlights reel. He kept the defence honest and the gaps opened.

I was more impressed by his distribution than his power. We know he's a powerful man but if he can do the offloads  and make the passes stick then he'll be a dangerous asset for England. It's an area I've always thought was a bit suspect.

I think he might have raised the eyebrows of a few Non tigers fans with his performance. He showed some very neat passing and his decision making was good.

Maybe he could make a good 12. But lets just see how he goes.
interestingly a pairing of 12 Slade and 13 Manu offers a hell of a lot, and is interchangeable.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 2:56 pm

beshocked wrote:Fair point, he did wear the 7 shirt. I was thinking of 2015. Robshaw and Haskell swapped positions in 2016. Neither being true opensides.

It might be that Jones elects not to have a "true" 7. Maybe he prefers power in there.

He did for Japan.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 04 Apr 2016, 4:09 pm

I was amused that Haskell had printed off a pair of '6 1/2' shirts after the GS

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 4:20 pm

Yes that was funny LIW. Eddie was adamant that he didn't want 6.5's and yet he played 2 all the way through the tournament.

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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 04 Apr 2016, 6:13 pm

Eddie is on record saying he wants every player to be a 7 at the breakdown. All must acquire the skill of picking the moment to dive in (staying on feet) and grab the ball. The nearest player must become the team 7 at the right moment. With that in mind I'm pretty comfortable about not having someone like Steffon playing for England. Hughes, Billy, Haskell/Clifford sounds like a pretty good backrow to me.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:00 pm

So Hatley is added to the coaching team as Scrum coach.

Thoughts?
Has a big reputation - brought through the likes of Corbs etc.

But bath Scrum has struggled. Wilson has been injured mind and Thomas isn't the strongest scrummager.

Is this a good Move?

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Post by king_carlos Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:13 pm

With Auterac a young prop who's set-piece is just developing, Davey Wilson struggling to get back to where he was, Webber disappearing into an abyss and Lahiff/Thomas not the strongest scrummagers this perhaps isn't the best season to judge Hatley by. Especially when Attwood, an excellent scrummaging lock, was also injured. That said he can't be completely excused from it though and will need a good tour to Aus from the scrum to settle fans worries.

With Rowntree out of the fold and Peel (who's coaching career has developed working under Wig) seemingly uninterested in a solely scrummaging role I think Hatley is a reasonable appointment from a short list of possibilities with no real standout.

I said on another thread but I'd keep an eye on Steve Boden (the current Jersey forwards coach) as a potential scrum coach in a few years. He has overseen a Jersey scrum which has developed a significant number of excellent scrummagers over the last few years. On top of that he's moving to Yorkshire/Leeds Carnegie so it will be very interesting to see what he can do with the players the Yorkshire academy pumps out.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:27 pm

king_carlos wrote:

I said on another thread but I'd keep an eye on Steve Boden (the current Jersey forwards coach) as a potential scrum coach in a few years. He has overseen a Jersey scrum which has developed a significant number of excellent scrummagers over the last few years. On top of that he's moving to Yorkshire/Leeds Carnegie so it will be very interesting to see what he can do with the players the Yorkshire academy pumps out.

Yeah we have signed their lh Lockwood who is in the championship team of the year.

We are crying out for genuinely strong scrummagers so fingers crossed.

Hopefully hatley can work some magic on the England pack. Though in all fairness it wasn't that bad this 6n.

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Post by robbo277 Fri 29 Apr 2016, 2:56 pm

I still think as a purely scrummaging coach (as we're looking for with Borthwick already in place), Rowntree wouldn't be a bad guy to have around, but I guess he's too closely associated with the previous failure.

Hoping that Hatley will do well for England, although I don't know too much about him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Apr 2016, 4:46 pm

Rob Andrew has resigned.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 29 Apr 2016, 5:04 pm

I know he had his faults, and he deserved some of the stick he got.

But the work he's done with the age groups, academies and joining all the seperate RFU entities together had been good.

Why's he leaving and who'll take over?

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Post by nathan Fri 29 Apr 2016, 5:13 pm

yappysnap wrote:I know he had his faults, and he deserved some of the stick he got.

But the work he's done with the age groups, academies and joining all the seperate RFU entities together had been good.

Why's he leaving and who'll take over?
Could just be a personal decision, wonder if Eddie had anything to do with it.

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Post by Exiledinborders Fri 29 Apr 2016, 5:25 pm

yappysnap wrote:I know he had his faults, and he deserved some of the stick he got.

But the work he's done with the age groups, academies and joining all the seperate RFU entities together had been good.

Why's he leaving and who'll take over?
I agree. It is the agreement that he negotiated with PRL that has formed the basis of the healthier position England are now in.

It does not look like he is being pushed as he is staying on to finish the next agreement. Normally if a senior exec is sacked they have to pack their bags the same day.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 29 Apr 2016, 6:25 pm

Nigel Melville taking over.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36173466

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Post by yappysnap Fri 29 Apr 2016, 8:30 pm

Sale have 96% lineout success and 92% scrum success, top of the league at both, have we got the wrong premiership forwards coach into the England set up?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 29 Apr 2016, 8:32 pm

Kvesic is also playing impressively. How is he not in the squad

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 29 Apr 2016, 8:36 pm

Scrum success is a very misleading statistic. Pretty sure Falcons were in the 90's last season and we got battered by everyone.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 29 Apr 2016, 8:42 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Scrum success is a very misleading statistic. Pretty sure Falcons were in the 90's last season and we got battered by everyone.

Yahoo laughing

Sgt well no one can ever say us falcons fans aren't honest ha ha ha....


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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 29 Apr 2016, 9:03 pm

PS I do think Taylor is an interesting Hooker to keep an eye on.

Ill be very interested in how he progresses at Wasps.

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Post by englandglory4ever Sat 30 Apr 2016, 11:30 am

Rowntree was a complete failure. Our scrum went backwards, literally, under him. He never developed a truly powerful scrum and he must take the blame for that. Equally, I'm not sure about Hatley either. But what I am certain about is that it very much depends on the physical abilities of the front row including the Hooker. So to have a worldbeating scrum we must select players that have that built-in ability. No more Youngs, Mears and other titchy lookalikes please. We need massive unadulterated power then Hatley may be able to add the icing through coaching..

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 30 Apr 2016, 2:40 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:Rowntree was a complete failure. Our scrum went backwards, literally, under him. He never developed a truly powerful scrum and he must take the blame for that. Equally, I'm not sure about Hatley either. But what I am certain about is that it very much depends on the physical abilities of the front row including the Hooker. So to have a worldbeating scrum we must select players that have that built-in ability. No more Youngs, Mears and other titchy lookalikes please. We need massive unadulterated power then Hatley may be able to add the icing through coaching..

Or maybe he had his hands tied somewhat by his instructions from Lancaster.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 30 Apr 2016, 9:41 pm

The England scrum was fine until the RWC, where the coaches tried to reshape the forwards and didn't allow enough time for them to adapt. Even then it looked bad partly because the Aussies were allowed to walk sideways.

Rowntree will be fine.
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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 02 May 2016, 11:57 am

Having watched a couple of AP games this weekend I'm now very concerned about the England scrum under Hatley. Glocs v sale was a joy to watch as most scrums were fair contests and completed. A massive tick for both teams. On the other hand the bath v saints game was utter rubbish when it came to scrums. Both front rows were determined to cheat in anyway they could. They also completely ignored the ref and continued to cheat. The great pity was that there were England players in both teams and one team is coached by Hatley. It doesn't look good.

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